00:00 - The following program is sponsored in part by customers

00:04 - bank.

00:14 - Welcome to the PCN Capital preview.

00:17 - I'm Larry Kasper.

00:18 - Today we'll talk about the state budget.

00:21 - But first we're joined by Gillian McGoldrick,

00:24 - Harrisburg reporter at the Philadelphia Inquirer.

00:27 - Welcome to our program, Gillian.

00:29 - Thanks for having me.

00:30 - You filed a story about Governor Shapiro facing a deadline

00:34 - for joining a federal tax credit program that could fund

00:38 - private school tuition.

00:40 - How would that program work?

00:42 - Yeah, so there's still waiting on some details

00:44 - from the federal government.

00:46 - This is a tax credit program that was, created

00:50 - as part of, President Donald Trump's one big, beautiful bill.

00:55 - This tax credit program will allow people

00:59 - to, claim up to $7,000

01:02 - in credits, for making donations to private schools.

01:08 - Anybody will be able to access those tax credits.

01:11 - Though private school advocates say that Pennsylvania

01:15 - students will only have the chance to benefit from them

01:19 - if the governor of the state, decides to opt in.

01:23 - So there's a lot of pressure

01:24 - on Governor Shapiro to opt in, from private school advocates.

01:29 - And then alternately, there's a lot of pressure on him,

01:32 - not to opt in by public school public education advocates.

01:36 - Well, how much do we know at this point, Gillian?

01:38 - How much would individuals have to donate to private schools

01:42 - in order to earn these tax credits?

01:46 - That is, one of those details they have yet to, to determine.

01:50 - But, families would be eligible to receive

01:56 - these be on the receiving end of these tax credits,

01:59 - of scholarships.

02:03 - 300% of the county's gross median income.

02:07 - So that would mean in Philadelphia

02:09 - or some of the collar counties around Philadelphia.

02:13 - Families that make $368,000 would be eligible.

02:18 - So that's not necessarily like low income families.

02:21 - Though, they and for that reason, there's

02:26 - a lot of criticism

02:28 - among public education advocates who say this is like a

02:31 - largely a universal school voucher program.

02:35 - What our state lawmakers are saying about this, tax,

02:39 - this school voucher program from the federal government.

02:43 - Yeah.

02:43 - So Senate Republicans

02:44 - who obviously control the state Senate, have been pushing.

02:48 - Governor Shapiro to opt into the program.

02:51 - But school choice has been a really tough issue

02:53 - for House Democrats who narrowly control the House.

02:57 - It has been really, really a heated issue for them.

03:02 - Since 2023, when the debate over a school voucher program

03:06 - that Governor Shapiro,

03:08 - who is also a Democrat, helped create a voucher school

03:12 - voucher program with Senate Republicans

03:14 - that he later line item vetoed.

03:16 - Really upsetting everyone in the process

03:19 - from House Democrats to Senate Republicans in the end.

03:22 - So now, it seems like.

03:26 - House Democrats are ready to, to engage on the issue.

03:29 - They obviously still, are skeptical,

03:33 - believe that there needs to be more transparency.

03:36 - On Pennsylvania's existing school choice, options

03:41 - and so the most noteworthy is,

03:44 - I spoke with, House Majority Leader Matt Bradford last week,

03:49 - and he said the, the federal program was, quote, intriguing.

03:54 - So it seems to be like there might be some public softening.

03:59 - I mean, this is a tough issue.

04:00 - I wouldn't want to be a Democratic governor.

04:03 - Specifically a Democratic governor up for reelection.

04:07 - Who has to decide whether to opt into this program?

04:12 - What it is to some degree, like, free money to not not.

04:17 - I know there's no such thing as free money.

04:18 - But, like, if Pennsylvania's going to to benefit from it,

04:23 - there really is no cost to a governor

04:26 - except for some political capital.

04:28 - Well, Jillian, so much for the perspective of lawmakers.

04:31 - Let's consider the point of view from the teachers unions.

04:34 - What do they think of this

04:36 - federal tax credit program, again,

04:38 - that could benefit students attending private schools?

04:43 - Yeah.

04:43 - So last week, the National Education Association,

04:47 - as well as the American Federation of Teachers,

04:49 - these are the two largest, teachers unions in the country.

04:53 - They sent a letter to Democratic governors, asking

04:57 - or will urging them not to opt into this program,

05:00 - calling it, quote, a Trojan horse carrying near

05:04 - universal K-12

05:06 - private school vouchers into every state that participates.

05:10 - So, yeah, they they're unhappy with that.

05:13 - Obviously any any effort to privatize education.

05:19 - And any effort to privatize education.

05:23 - And essentially, is the argument among, teachers

05:29 - unions saying that that is drawing money away from public

05:33 - education and, and essentially making the system worse.

05:36 - Well, Gillian, you know how it is with education dollars.

05:40 - There's always a concern about accountability.

05:42 - So as far as this federal tax credit program is concerned,

05:46 - is that a detail

05:47 - that that's been worked out yet any degree of accountability?

05:51 - There hasn't

05:52 - been a ton of details like they still the the U.S.

05:56 - Treasury did

05:56 - release additional details and Governor Shapiro's office

05:59 - said that they appreciate the additional detail so far.

06:03 - But the governor through here still hasn't made a decision.

06:08 - So those details are still getting worked out.

06:12 - I do think it's also worth noting,

06:14 - there are some Democratic governors who have opted in.

06:17 - Largely all of the states that have opted in

06:19 - thus far are Republican governors, from red states.

06:24 - But some of the

06:25 - Democratic governors that have, opted in include, Colorado.

06:30 - Governor Jared Polis and New York Governor Kathy Hochul.

06:34 - Now the risk of, confusing our viewers.

06:37 - Jillian, I know Pennsylvania has its own version

06:40 - of a school voucher tax credit program, doesn't it?

06:43 - And tell us briefly, what's the difference between

06:45 - the existing state program and the proposed federal program

06:48 - that the governor is considering joining?

06:51 - Yeah.

06:52 - So the the, state level program

06:56 - is, approximately $680 million worth of,

07:01 - Pennsylvania taxpayer dollars that are set aside every year.

07:04 - And so that program is is different.

07:08 - It's called the earned.

07:10 - Sort. Sorry. Not called.

07:11 - Earned the educational improvement, tax credit ITC.

07:15 - Right.

07:15 - The ITC and then the opportunity scholarships tax credit.

07:19 - There are two different programs.

07:20 - Democrats last week had announced

07:24 - and or passed potential overhaul of the system,

07:28 - to create just one singular, tax credit going forward.

07:33 - All right.

07:33 - Last question for you, Jillian.

07:36 - How soon does

07:37 - the governor have to act on this federal proposal?

07:41 - He has until the end of the year.

07:44 - All right.

07:45 - Thanks very much.

07:45 - Jillian McGoldrick from the Philadelphia Inquirer.

07:48 - Thanks for your time.

07:50 - Thank you.

07:50 - More of the PC and Capitol preview after a short break.

07:56 - Welcome back.

07:57 - Our guests today are Charlie.

07:59 - Gerow, CEO of Quantum Communications

08:03 - and former speaker of the House Bill Dewey's bill.

08:06 - We're going to start with you.

08:08 - Governor Shapiro

08:09 - proposed the budget of $53.3 billion back in February.

08:14 - The House is on board

08:16 - with their own plan, which parallels the governor's.

08:19 - Now it's up to the state Senate.

08:21 - What's happening there? Real fast.

08:24 - I do want to say that I had cataract surgery

08:26 - several days ago, and that's the reason

08:28 - I have these protective glasses on right now.

08:31 - Having said that,

08:32 - and I think there's no one on the hill

08:34 - that's going to need any protection,

08:36 - but there's still going to be some time

08:38 - lapse between now and Governor Shapiro's signature.

08:42 - And when you're talking about 53.3, I was talking

08:46 - to legislators last night, Republicans,

08:50 - and they were saying 51.7 to 52.3.

08:55 - And people think that might be a little

08:59 - challenging to get in the weeds that much,

09:01 - but that's $500 million, 5/10 of a percent.

09:05 - So we're going to have to wait.

09:07 - And I said this when Jake Corman, one of my

09:11 - other great Republican friends, as well as Charlie Deri, said

09:15 - at the last time I was with you, probably about a year ago

09:18 - at the budget, we were weeks out and I said, I'm no soothsayer

09:22 - or clairvoyant, and I remain no soothsayer or clairvoyant.

09:27 - But if you have somebody on here,

09:30 - maybe Charlie is the one person that knows

09:32 - what's going to evolve over the next day.

09:34 - Three week two.

09:36 - But I think that Governor Shapiro is number

09:39 - will be diminished in the end by something.

09:42 - I'm not sure what I would probably if I were

09:45 - in the legislature with Matt Bradford and the speaker,

09:49 - I would probably be advocating for 53.3 to help the governor.

09:53 - But I think the countervailing forces

09:56 - are going to ask for less.

09:59 - So, Charlie, what do you think

10:00 - is going to happen to this

10:01 - $53.3 million budget that's being proposed?

10:05 - And what kind of a window of negotiation are you forecasting?

10:08 - Well, whenever I'm on with speaker DeWitt,

10:10 - I always bring along

10:10 - my dictionary and thesaurus because I want to be referred

10:14 - to as a clairvoyant and a soothsayer.

10:16 - But there are none.

10:18 - I mean, nobody really knows exactly what's going to happen

10:20 - or even the timeline in which it's going to occur.

10:23 - My biggest concern, Larry, is that we are now talking

10:27 - about a $53 billion budget.

10:30 - When Tom Wolf took over as governor

10:33 - 11 years ago, we had a $30 billion budget

10:38 - approved by the General Assembly

10:39 - and the previous administration, 30 billion to 53.5 billion.

10:44 - Now that's a 70% increase in actual terms.

10:49 - We simply can't afford that.

10:50 - The taxpayers of Pennsylvania can't.

10:52 - And a couple of years ago, $50 billion was supposed to be

10:55 - the glass ceiling above which we couldn't possibly go.

10:58 - We did.

10:59 - And now we're talking about, you know, de minimis.

11:02 - Good word for you there, Mr. Speaker.

11:04 - Differences in the approaches of the House and Senate.

11:07 - So I think Bill is right.

11:09 - It's going to be somewhere between 50.1 and 53.

11:15 - Lord only knows exactly what that number is going to be,

11:18 - and I think it's going to be done relatively quickly.

11:20 - We certainly won't see a situation

11:22 - like we did last year.

11:23 - So Charlie says this glass

11:24 - ceiling of $50 billion was shattered long ago.

11:28 - Oh, I remember,

11:29 - and it's not been that long ago that I was in public life.

11:33 - We're talking about in the high teens, low 20s, mid 20s.

11:36 - And now he's not incorrect.

11:38 - It's doubled in the span.

11:41 - And I'm talking about the 1990s when you were speaker

11:43 - and even in the early aughts.

11:47 - I'd like to say early on taxpayers in Pennsylvania,

11:51 - I like that we don't hear that the taxpayers of Pennsylvania

11:54 - have not seen a commensurate increase in their earning power.

11:58 - Another good word for you, Mr..

12:00 - And that would appeal

12:01 - to people who are listening that look at the national level

12:04 - also, because the affordability dynamics

12:08 - that the current federal administration is defending,

12:12 - or at least trying to defend, would replicate here.

12:16 - Charlie's not wrong again.

12:18 - The fact is, the cost of living in Pennsylvania is a challenge,

12:23 - and the fact that we are asking for billions and billions

12:27 - of additional dollars

12:28 - will be a quintessential part of the dialog

12:31 - over the next several days.

12:33 - There will be a lot of Republicans

12:34 - and conservative Democrats that are going to push back

12:37 - and one avenue where people should be

12:41 - able to get together would be the skill games controversy.

12:44 - And the court said, you have 120 days.

12:47 - But as we were discussing off air a little while ago,

12:52 - they've had they've had a year or two to discuss this.

12:56 - They shouldn't need 120 days, 120 hours.

13:00 - The baseball metaphor.

13:01 - This has been in the bottom of the ninth

13:02 - inning for a long, long time, and they could tax

13:07 - those skill games, which are not skill

13:10 - games, as the Supreme Court appropriately decided.

13:14 - And they could help bolster our state lottery

13:17 - and bolster the 18 casinos that are out there

13:20 - that are being jeopardized by historically

13:23 - by these skill games that were in every laundromat

13:26 - and pizza shop and gas station in the Commonwealth

13:29 - and all these hundreds

13:30 - and hundreds of millions of dollars

13:32 - that could have been sluicing into the state treasury

13:34 - over the past couple of years have not been available.

13:39 - And there is a way, in my view,

13:42 - if I were in the leadership

13:44 - echelon in any of the four caucuses,

13:47 - I would approach Governor Shapiro and figure out a way

13:50 - to put a lot of extra money into this conversation

13:53 - and I would do it quickly, and I think it could be done.

13:56 - You mentioned skill games a minute ago,

13:58 - and certainly we're going to explore that

13:59 - in some detail with the court ruling.

14:01 - And I'll go ahead.

14:02 - Charlie, I was just going to say

14:03 - I think the speaker's right about that.

14:06 - And the question really is, in my judgment, at what level

14:10 - are they going to be taxed?

14:11 - I mean, the governor has an idea that I think makes sense.

14:15 - I don't agree with the governor very often,

14:17 - but I think it makes sense

14:18 - to tax them at the same rate that casino slot games

14:21 - are taxed.

14:22 - The Senate to the 2% 42%.

14:24 - The Senate and the House

14:25 - have a lesser number, I think around 35%.

14:28 - The slot makers pay somebody in particular,

14:32 - and some of the others

14:32 - want to have them taxed on a per machine basis.

14:36 - I think it's 500 bucks a machine,

14:37 - which would be a very, very low level.

14:39 - They say that will benefit small businesses and the VFW

14:43 - and American Legion halls in which these machines are found.

14:47 - I think that's going to be the principal point of debate.

14:51 - And as a veteran myself,

14:53 - nobody wants to impair the American Legion's

14:56 - or the AmVets or the VFW or the other lodge convenience

15:01 - stores, pizza parlors, places that, well, that's 70,000.

15:05 - That's what I heard. That's a different story.

15:07 - I'm saying I'm saying we should have a carve out

15:09 - for the fraternal clubs and the veterans clubs,

15:12 - and that would not be difficult to do, in my opinion.

15:15 - And one other thing, the inimitable,

15:17 - the immortal George Wolf, one of the great lobbyists of

15:22 - the Pennsylvania Capitol setting from the 1950s until today.

15:27 - He's in his early 90s.

15:28 - He and I were discussing this recently.

15:30 - He's one of my heroes.

15:31 - He was the Babe Ruth of the lobbyist corps.

15:34 - Notwithstanding this guy's burnished

15:36 - reputation back in the day.

15:38 - But he said Bill, in his Pennsylvania Dutch accent,

15:41 - he says, Bill, I think you should

15:43 - take the skill games and put them at 39.9%.

15:46 - He says that's the percent. That's the magic.

15:49 - So for whoever is listening among Matt Bradford's

15:52 - for any clue as to how he arrived at that figure,

15:54 - it sounds rather arbitrary. Well, he didn't.

15:56 - He say in the 30s, he just said it.

15:59 - And and the reason he said 39.9 was, yes, keep it under 40.

16:03 - Now, I would agree with this distinguished gentleman

16:07 - from State Street.

16:08 - And I would say that 52%, 52%.

16:13 - Absolutely. And there's no skill there.

16:15 - And let these people

16:16 - from Atlanta, Georgia, who have really invaded Pennsylvania's

16:21 - laundromats and pizza shops and so forth.

16:24 - Let and by the way, one last thing on skill games.

16:27 - Do you realize that according to some national studies

16:30 - that were proffered within the last month, month

16:32 - and a half,

16:33 - the largest growing cohort of people that are gambling in

16:37 - the United States are boys between 11 and 17.

16:42 - And that is reprehensible.

16:44 - Well, I know you gentlemen are excited

16:46 - about talking about skill games. And after all,

16:48 - the court did come up with an important ruling.

16:50 - But first let's put that off just for a little while

16:52 - and get back to the budget in general.

16:54 - And Charlie, I want to explore a statement

16:56 - you made a few minutes ago about, Pennsylvanians

16:59 - earning power and not being commensurate,

17:01 - I think, was the word you use with this proposed budget.

17:04 - So talk more about this economy and how you think

17:08 - this figure of 53.3

17:09 - billion is out of, beyond reach in Pennsylvanians?

17:13 - Well, I just gave, previously a longer view

17:18 - of where we've been with the budget.

17:19 - And Bill DeWeese took it back even further to say,

17:22 - you know, we were talking about in the teens,

17:24 - and now we're talking about in the 50s and the earning power,

17:28 - Pennsylvanians, the working people, the state

17:30 - simply haven't seen their wages go up by any near that amount.

17:34 - And in fact, a lot of folks right now

17:35 - are having a hard time making ends meet.

17:37 - They're tightening their belts, and they're asking,

17:40 - why isn't state government doing the same thing?

17:42 - It's the spending that is really the biggest

17:46 - problem here, not the revenue collection.

17:48 - The revenue collection obviously has to match the spending.

17:50 - We're required to have a balanced budget,

17:52 - but the spending has simply gotten out of control.

17:56 - Now you fellas read the same news articles

17:59 - that I do, and you're trying to find out

18:00 - what the Senate is doing.

18:01 - And maybe you can read

18:03 - some of these articles about the Senate leaders

18:05 - and read in between the lines better than I can.

18:07 - What are you getting out of any reports from the Senate,

18:10 - namely the majority leader, Bill DeWeese?

18:12 - Well, I don't want to have only one page in my hymnal,

18:17 - but they're not going in my view.

18:20 - They're not going to rush to the governor's mansion

18:24 - for a moment of Kumbaya,

18:27 - the way we used to do with Tom Ridge and Ed Rendell.

18:31 - And so forth.

18:32 - There's going to be some hesitation,

18:34 - and they are going to try to get,

18:38 - in the Shakespearean metaphor, a pound of flesh.

18:40 - Now, what that pound of flesh is, I do not know.

18:43 - Back to my original opportunity

18:45 - to tell you that I'm not a clairvoyant.

18:47 - But there's so much money available.

18:50 - Hundreds of millions of dollars into the gambling conversation.

18:55 - And this is not.

18:56 - This is not difficult.

18:57 - This is an easy win.

18:59 - So I would like to think that

19:00 - that would be one of their avenues.

19:02 - But I don't have a good answer.

19:03 - And notwithstanding, in fact, I'm

19:04 - very happy to be here and have the invitation.

19:07 - But we don't have that, that that ball, that magic.

19:12 - How about that?

19:12 - But here's the thing, though I you're right.

19:14 - I read the newspapers.

19:16 - Bill has the advantage of having pillow talk.

19:18 - Involved in this conversation is way better.

19:21 - And his wife is wise as a state senator.

19:23 - So he is much more insightful than I am.

19:27 - But I see two opportunities here or potential opportunities,

19:31 - the skill gains that have already been mentioned

19:33 - and the legalization of recreational marijuana.

19:36 - That's not going to happen, I don't think.

19:38 - No, Mr. DeWeese and I disagree on that.

19:41 - I'm one of the few Republicans

19:42 - that thinks that we ought to get out.

19:43 - I didn't say my view.

19:45 - I just said it's not going to happen.

19:46 - No, but your view is more nuanced.

19:48 - But I think you oppose the legalization. Do you?

19:50 - And I could be wrong about that.

19:52 - I've always had a checkered past.

19:53 - You should probably look into it more.

19:56 - I might be absolutely on board with it.

19:59 - Well, in any event, as you know, a conservative Republican,

20:03 - I've been criticized harshly for a

20:05 - supporting medical marijuana, which now is widely accepted.

20:08 - I think it's the polls show

20:09 - like 90% of Pennsylvanians think that's a good idea.

20:12 - But I've also said, you know, recreational marijuana

20:15 - ought to be legalized. That's the governor's plan.

20:18 - I mean, to say that people are smoking

20:20 - weed right now is ridiculous. They are.

20:22 - The question is, should that be a source of tax revenue?

20:26 - And there is an awful lot of money

20:27 - sitting on the table that's not being taken off.

20:30 - That would not require an increase in taxes

20:33 - for Pennsylvanians, because ultimately

20:36 - taxes are what pay for the state budget.

20:39 - Well, Charlie, keep the floor for a moment

20:41 - and consider that the governor wants to spend about $4.6

20:44 - billion of the rainy day fund, which I understand has about

20:48 - $8 million in it.

20:50 - And does this seem to you

20:52 - to be a legitimate use of the rainy day fund?

20:54 - In a word, no.

20:56 - And I think the state Senate is saying the same thing.

20:59 - The good news is that in order to spend that money,

21:02 - you don't simply have to have a simple majority

21:06 - in the General Assembly.

21:07 - You've got to have a super majority, right,

21:08 - in order to raid that fund.

21:10 - That was a safeguard, a guardrail.

21:12 - If you will, that the legislature put in some time.

21:14 - But just a super majority, Charlie,

21:16 - I forget two thirds, two thirds,

21:17 - which you know, is a is a really important protection

21:22 - of that rainy day fund because otherwise Josh Shapiro,

21:25 - who never saw a dollar he didn't want to spend,

21:27 - would have already burnt through it.

21:29 - And this isn't this isn't pillow talk at all.

21:31 - It's just an extrapolation on my part.

21:33 - But I think the two thirds would be very, very difficult.

21:36 - And the propensity of the Senate

21:40 - political potentates from reps or Senator Ward.

21:45 - Senator Pittman, I would think, would parallel his comment

21:49 - that there was no way that there would be two thirds

21:52 - of the people that would be willing to

21:55 - take that money from the rainy day fund.

21:57 - I'm not going to be too partizan and say raid.

22:00 - I'll just say, take it from the rainy day fund.

22:02 - I don't think that would be

22:04 - prohibitive that something would come out 1 or 2 billion, etc..

22:07 - So I think, again, compromise, compromise a bill.

22:10 - Senate Republicans are saying that if the governor does

22:13 - tap the rainy day fund, that would hurt the state's ability

22:17 - to borrow money.

22:18 - Is that right? Is that how it works?

22:20 - Probably to some degree. I'm not a financial expert.

22:22 - I'm a generalist, which is obvious, but.

22:25 - Oh, but I am telling

22:26 - you in the legislature for a good long time. Yes.

22:29 - And there are some other aspects of life

22:31 - that I'm pretty well acquainted with,

22:32 - so I would consider myself almost an expert on. But.

22:35 - But the Wall Street's not one of them.

22:39 - We went through the snow.

22:40 - Apropos of what you just said,

22:41 - we went through this a long time.

22:43 - Many times. And yes is the answer.

22:46 - If they're going to have anything done with the rainy day

22:50 - fund, that could imperil their ability to raise money

22:54 - for the bond market.

22:55 - I'm trying to get some insight into the financial impact.

22:58 - Our bond rating. Yes.

22:59 - And that's the bond market, right?

23:01 - The bond markets are where we borrow money and so Pennsylvania

23:05 - would have negative impacts if we ran if we raid.

23:09 - And I think that is the appropriate word.

23:11 - That rainy day fund, which was set aside for again

23:15 - emergencies etc..

23:17 - The situation we have now is not an emergency.

23:19 - It's simply that Josh Shapiro wants to spend more and more

23:22 - and more of the taxpayers money, because that's

23:25 - what sits in that rainy day fund.

23:27 - Relative to your question, though,

23:29 - the bond market and what's going on in

23:31 - Washington, excuse me, mostly in New York City,

23:34 - but we have people in all four appropriations committees.

23:38 - Jordan Harris has somebody and

23:42 - represents.

23:42 - He has

23:43 - Matt Gobbler and some other people. They have some very oh,

23:46 - the leaders have expert advisors. Sure.

23:48 - Yes. On the on the appropriations.

23:50 - Committee that keep an eye on the bond market.

23:54 - And then naturally, the governor's

23:55 - people do also in the budget and the Treasury.

23:59 - Well, let's consider this, gentlemen,

24:01 - the budget is due on June the 30th, which happens to be

24:04 - the day we're doing this program.

24:05 - By the way, my parents got married 80 years ago today.

24:08 - Wow. Congratulations. That's amazing.

24:11 - Yeah. It is.

24:12 - So they had a date on Pearl Harbor Day.

24:13 - They they both joined the army.

24:15 - And after the war, they got married.

24:17 - And four years later, I came around and, you know.

24:19 - So I don't know why the world has never got to say.

24:22 - Happy anniversary, mom and dad up in heaven.

24:24 - That's a wonderful development.

24:26 - Now, as far as the budget

24:27 - being due on June the 30th is concern for lawmakers anymore.

24:31 - Just how big a priority is that?

24:33 - Because we know budgets have been late

24:35 - in recent years, Charlie,

24:36 - more of a priority this year because it's an election year.

24:38 - They simply can't

24:39 - drag this thing out interminably because they've got to go home

24:43 - and campaign.

24:43 - They need time to campaign, don't they?

24:45 - Voters are going to be saying,

24:46 - what the heck are you guys doing?

24:48 - I mean, last year we had 180 days drag

24:52 - before we finally got a budget and there were consequences.

24:54 - What were you do get the consequences then?

24:57 - If I could just real quickly,

24:59 - a court decision about 15 years ago

25:02 - really changed the dynamic here and I think.

25:04 - Speaker two we will agree with me on this,

25:06 - because what the court said was you've still got to pay

25:09 - state workers during a budget, lag.

25:14 - Prior to that, they didn't get paid.

25:16 - And so the pressure was really,

25:18 - really very strong on the legislators

25:19 - to get things done with that valve open.

25:23 - It made the pressure much less significant.

25:26 - Now you've got a situation where

25:29 - it's probably into September before things really start

25:32 - to hit the road because of the schools, schools. But

25:36 - the legislature, I think, will act relatively quickly

25:39 - this year. They don't want to let

25:40 - this thing linger in an election year.

25:43 - 100% agree with that.

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27:18 - Okay, gentlemen, I'm here

27:20 - with our guest, Bill DeWeese and, Charlie Gerow.

27:23 - We're talking about the fate of the state budget.

27:26 - And, Bill, tell our viewers, remind our viewers

27:29 - one last one more time why you're wearing shades today.

27:32 - I had a cataract surgery procedure several days ago,

27:36 - and I was told to wear these for six weeks

27:39 - outside and to wear another set inside.

27:42 - And the lights are in a pretty bright mode right now.

27:46 - So thank you for allowing me this.

27:49 - This shirt bills long as you're comfortable.

27:52 - So let's talk about the, additional proposed

27:55 - appropriation for school, because we schools,

27:58 - we expect at least a half $1 billion there.

28:01 - And I understand there's money beyond that

28:02 - for schools that have been identified as underfunded.

28:06 - What's in the news for, school funding beyond that?

28:12 - You know, I expect both of you

28:14 - to put the brakes on for that question.

28:16 - Well, you know, there's a lot of question about EitC,

28:19 - the education tax credit and the funding for that.

28:23 - It's the most popular program I can think of is Pennsylvania.

28:27 - Tremendous bipartisan support and great service to a lot of

28:31 - kids that wouldn't otherwise have the opportunities,

28:33 - funding for, private schools, religious schools, precisely.

28:37 - And and earning tax credit.

28:39 - Make a donation, get a tax cut. That's exactly right.

28:41 - And now there's even talk of

28:42 - reverting back to the Tom Ridge plan for school vouchers

28:45 - to allow kids to go to the school of their choice,

28:48 - rather than to the school

28:50 - in which zip code they happen to reside.

28:52 - I think those are two big items.

28:54 - The other thing, though, is to get there with the Democratic.

28:56 - I agree, but those are going to be big.

28:58 - I agree we're not going to get there,

29:00 - but those are going to be big items of discussion

29:02 - and they're going to be part of the negotiation

29:05 - and the compromise that ultimately

29:06 - will result in the state budget.

29:09 - But I think there's going to be increased conversation

29:12 - about accountability and education spending,

29:15 - because education spending is going up and up and up and up,

29:19 - and the results have gone in the opposite direction.

29:22 - We simply are not getting the

29:24 - bang for our buck that we're always promised.

29:26 - We're always told, oh, just a little bit

29:28 - more money for schools and we're going to have

29:30 - a much better education system.

29:32 - But it hasn't proven to be the case.

29:37 - Relative to, accountability is so important.

29:40 - Like Charlie

29:40 - says, funding keeps going up and you want to see results.

29:44 - One point before that, and I ran into,

29:48 - State Representative Martina White last night who's

29:50 - in the Republican leadership, and she also affirmed

29:54 - that this would be a

29:58 - pertinent part of the final dialog on the budget.

30:02 - And as Charlie has alluded, that's what we're hearing.

30:07 - And that was just as recently

30:08 - as as last night, relative to the accountability.

30:12 - The fact is, in the United States.

30:15 - And I'll only speak for that because I have

30:18 - no knowledge otherwise.

30:20 - But the family dynamics

30:23 - and the economics of the current American family

30:28 - are such that it is very, very difficult.

30:32 - Charlie is not wrong relative to most of the testing scores

30:37 - and the level of progress that we've been making

30:41 - is certainly something

30:43 - we've got to strive for a better result, but

30:46 - we're not going to get a better result with fewer dollars.

30:49 - And so therefore, the amount of money that's in the budget

30:52 - plus the normal enhancement of every budget

30:57 - that I was ever a part of, I've got some extra money now.

31:00 - How do you get to Charlie's end result and get higher

31:03 - test scores and a more positive outcome?

31:06 - That's a primordial question.

31:09 - It goes back a long, long way, and I think the decent,

31:14 - the disintegration of the family unit over, over, over

31:17 - a period of time is is the reason.

31:18 - And Charlie, I'd be interested.

31:20 - How do you think what would you say

31:22 - we should do in this budget

31:23 - that would enhance those test scores or enhance

31:26 - the educational opportunities for these youngsters?

31:28 - And I don't think I have a good answer

31:30 - other than this cosmic, commentary that I just made.

31:33 - Well, I think a lot of it does come down to school choice.

31:36 - It really does,

31:37 - because an awful lot of these schools that kids want to go to,

31:41 - but simply can't afford to

31:43 - are performing much, much better

31:45 - than their public school counterparts.

31:47 - And I think if you dig underneath it

31:49 - and ask why that truly is, you'll get the answer.

31:52 - But some of these religious schools

31:53 - and some of these private schools they're testing

31:55 - are either at the same level as our public schools or below.

31:59 - This is this is maybe one of the most

32:02 - crucial discussions that is

32:04 - part of the public debate right now,

32:05 - not only in Pennsylvania but nationally.

32:07 - The president of the United States

32:09 - has a perspective on what he wants to do

32:11 - with the National Department of Education, etc., etc..

32:13 - I mean, this is a this is a boiling question,

32:17 - and I think

32:18 - I think we're going to have more money in the state

32:20 - budget to get back to the point that we're having

32:22 - this interview, we're going to have more money.

32:24 - I don't know exactly how much,

32:26 - but the accountability will be a factor.

32:28 - And I think that we're going to I know we but I think

32:32 - the Democratic caucus in both, both the House

32:34 - and the Senate will want to make sure

32:36 - that that the private schools are held to the same standards.

32:39 - And let me say one more thing about education funding.

32:41 - Then we'll move on real quickly, because he mentioned

32:44 - the Department of Education at the federal level.

32:46 - When Jimmy Carter

32:47 - and his cronies in the teachers union cronies, his cronies,

32:51 - got paid off by the creation of the Department of Education.

32:55 - We have spent Larry, 4 trillion, not million

32:59 - or billion, $4 trillion on education in 1979.

33:04 - And the Department of Education was created.

33:06 - We were number one in the world in educational taste

33:09 - test scores. Do you know where we are today?

33:12 - Below 40.

33:14 - And you've got to ask where those $4 trillion went

33:17 - and why the result has been what it is.

33:20 - Gentlemen, let's get back to the subject of skill games,

33:23 - because that seemed to light a fire under both of you before,

33:25 - and I want to take advantage of that energy here.

33:28 - But this time, instead of starting

33:29 - in the middle of the story,

33:30 - let's start at the very beginning.

33:31 - So really, it has to do with this Supreme Court ruling

33:35 - that was made recently.

33:36 - That said, very simply, skill games are slot machines.

33:40 - So, briefly, what does that mean to lawmakers

33:43 - getting back to education for 10s?

33:45 - You know, you only get you

33:46 - only need fourth grade education to figure out the skill games

33:49 - and slot machines are the same thing.

33:51 - Yeah.

33:52 - And so the Supreme Court,

33:53 - the first court got it wrong is what the Supreme Court told

33:56 - the Supreme Court. You know,

33:58 - really ruled what was obvious and it was unanimous.

34:01 - And what that means is that all of these skill games

34:03 - are illegal and able to be criminally prosecuted.

34:07 - The court has given a limited window of 120 days

34:11 - for the legislature

34:12 - to do something, after which enforcement will begin

34:16 - to figure out a way to regulate these machines.

34:18 - And that could be a whole bunch, a whole range of questions.

34:20 - Exactly.

34:21 - And, you know, addition to the tax rate. Yeah.

34:23 - Whether they're going to be covered by the,

34:25 - gaming Control Board

34:26 - or some other entity, all those kinds of things.

34:29 - It's a lot of work that happens.

34:30 - You want to limit the machines.

34:31 - Like Bill said earlier, you wouldn't

34:32 - I would send in mine. If your veteran social clubs.

34:36 - Yes, that's correct.

34:37 - But for everything other than that, I would send

34:39 - in the long gray line, the Pennsylvania State Troopers.

34:42 - I would send them in tomorrow to grab all those things or,

34:46 - or tax them at 52% and get it over with

34:50 - and let Joshua Shapiro and the four caucuses

34:53 - have a state budget with a lot of infusion of money,

34:57 - several hundreds of millions of dollars.

34:59 - The rainy day fund would not be impaired and would have

35:03 - a favorable conclusion.

35:04 - Well, some of these establishments, Bill,

35:06 - including the ones that you seem to covet,

35:09 - don't want to pay 52%.

35:11 - They think it's so.

35:11 - I said there could be a carve out

35:13 - for the veterans clubs and the soldiers.

35:14 - They would get a special education club, the Senate.

35:16 - Right. The Slovak club, the folks that probably didn't.

35:18 - They probably get the permission rate

35:20 - that the industry is now seeking. That's my say.

35:23 - And again, there's going to be a lot of compromise here.

35:26 - But I think it's inescapable that this is a source of revenue

35:30 - that doesn't cost the average taxpayer a nickel.

35:33 - And so I'm guessing that there's going to be significant

35:39 - taxation may not be at 52%, but probably some 39.9

35:44 - will go with the George Wolf play.

35:46 - Oh, it's George Wolf.

35:49 - Briefly back to the governor because I know him.

35:51 - He he supports the 52% plan.

35:53 - And he says, furthermore

35:55 - that that would bring in revenue

35:56 - to the tune of about $2 billion a year.

35:59 - I think that's I guess that's based on this estimate of

36:02 - 70 machines, 70,000 machines statewide.

36:05 - And there.

36:06 - But we may even limit that. Charlie.

36:08 - How about that and then not a question.

36:09 - The left answer. Yes.

36:10 - And that's where the compromise is going to come in.

36:12 - But the 70,000 I think is agreed on generally.

36:15 - But there are some folks who think that the numbers

36:17 - even bigger than that.

36:18 - I would agree with Governor Shapiro,

36:19 - and I don't necessarily agree

36:20 - with the Governor Shapiro on everything,

36:22 - but I certainly agree with him on this.

36:24 - Well, the independent Fiscal Office,

36:26 - they say that their estimate on skilled game

36:28 - revenue is closer to a half billion.

36:31 - So we've got quite a discrepancy between 2

36:33 - billion from the governor and the AFL says a half billion.

36:36 - What I met was a 52%. I don't have

36:38 - any special knowledge on what the total would be.

36:41 - And there's been a wide range of tax rates proposed.

36:44 - Anyway.

36:45 - I remember, Senator, your proposed, 16%.

36:47 - And and then, Charlie, you mentioned earlier

36:49 - the possible of a flat $500, per machine.

36:54 - And I wonder, who would benefit?

36:57 - With that kind of playing get traction and why?

37:00 - No, I haven't had time to think.

37:01 - I don't think it would,

37:02 - because the revenue would be so de minimis.

37:06 - That's the industry's proposal.

37:08 - It's likely, if they get into the compromise

37:10 - situation, that the speaker has already

37:12 - worked it out for them, that they have a carve out

37:14 - for fraternal clubs.

37:15 - The VFW, etc., that would be at that rate.

37:19 - And then the other games that are in gas

37:22 - stations and laundromats, etc.,

37:24 - would be taxed at a much higher rate.

37:26 - The governor's, you know, number being over 50%, which is

37:30 - just so we're clear, the rate at which slot

37:33 - machines in casinos are taxed.

37:36 - Now, the way media are covering, skill games recently,

37:40 - it would be reasonable to come to the conclusion

37:42 - that they consider that,

37:43 - like a panacea solution to our budget, and that probably

37:47 - isn't the case.

37:48 - So try to put it in perspective, Charlie.

37:51 - Cut spending.

37:54 - And that's all it takes.

37:57 - Well, how about oh, this is, interesting

38:00 - because this was a big deal last year.

38:01 - Remember what happened

38:02 - with, funding for public transportation? Yes.

38:06 - And then the governor had to intervene.

38:08 - He came up with his own plan

38:10 - and, shifted some money from one column to the next.

38:13 - But that solution, albeit, is a temporary one,

38:17 - and maybe there's only a year left on the clock there.

38:20 - What I'm getting at is, are lawmakers getting serious

38:23 - about a permanent solution for, public?

38:26 - I don't think you'll see it in this budget.

38:28 - However, there was an article within the last 2 or 3 days,

38:32 - I think it was

38:33 - in the Philadelphia Inquirer relative to Septa funding.

38:37 - And they seem to be stabilized momentarily.

38:41 - But the end of the article said this is just temporary.

38:45 - So what you're saying

38:46 - is accurate and eventually it's going to have to happen.

38:50 - And when you say that Septa needs more money

38:54 - and education is going to get more money,

38:56 - and then Charlie says, cut spending. I'm not arguing.

38:59 - I'm only saying that

39:00 - that's the dilemma that all budget tiers have

39:04 - and so far, and the numbers speak for themselves.

39:08 - They have not been cutting spending.

39:11 - Right. And lawmakers love to spend money.

39:13 - I mean, let's face it, it's part, you know,

39:15 - and it's other people's money, that they love to spend.

39:19 - And the taxpayers are beginning to say, wait a minute.

39:22 - But the issue with Septa and, part,

39:25 - Pittsburgh.

39:26 - Regional Transit, right, is, is essentially this

39:29 - they've got to do some work on their own

39:32 - as they ask for additional funding.

39:34 - And I think the legislature's been pretty clear about that,

39:37 - both in administration and savings in safety, etc..

39:41 - Their record is abysmal line.

39:44 - The state lawmakers are talking about

39:46 - taking more money from sales and use tax.

39:49 - So that's not a cost to the taxpayer.

39:51 - That's just a matter of the money.

39:53 - That's right. Shifting it over.

39:56 - Anything happening there of you I'm trying to get hold to say.

40:00 - I don't think they're going to

40:00 - do much with that in this budget.

40:03 - Again, it's an election year.

40:04 - A lot of non-urban legislators are going to say,

40:08 - wait a minute, you know, it's not our responsibility

40:10 - to take care of the big cities transportation problems.

40:13 - Except in part.

40:15 - And so I don't think it will happen in this budget,

40:17 - but it can be difficult.

40:18 - Need consensus statewide anyway, right, Charlie?

40:21 - It's going to be very difficult.

40:23 - And they're also trying to leave town.

40:25 - They're not going to, in my view,

40:27 - get out of here before the 4th of July.

40:29 - But I could be wrong.

40:30 - I hope I'm wrong, but I but like Charlie pointed out,

40:32 - they have to think about a campaign.

40:34 - Yes, but I think they come back and they do it.

40:37 - They might if I think if they were

40:40 - fortunate and circumspect, they would do the GA bill,

40:45 - probably Thursday or Friday, the general appropriations bill,

40:48 - and then come back the following week

40:50 - and do the administrative code bills and the other

40:53 - ancillary proposals that are the fiscal code, etc..

40:56 - Yes, that's what I should have said.

40:58 - Yes, the fiscal code and wrap it up

41:01 - the second week right after the fourth, and then go home

41:05 - and then come back after Labor Day for the perfunctory

41:07 - two or 3 or 4 weeks as the campaign churns forward.

41:12 - And this should be an exciting campaign.

41:14 - And again, it's another too much for one show.

41:18 - But the skill games people invested a lot of money

41:22 - in, in very, very difficult primaries among Republicans

41:27 - and the Citizens Alliance of Pennsylvania spent a Niagara

41:31 - of Republican money in primaries, that they would

41:35 - probably have been better off spending in the fall.

41:39 - And you're going to have a great deal of tumult,

41:41 - especially in eastern Pennsylvania, from the Poconos

41:44 - to the Lehigh Valley to the Philadelphia suburbs.

41:47 - And I think this is going to be

41:48 - one of the more exciting contests in the House

41:51 - and the Senate.

41:51 - I think the House Democrats will gain a seat or 2 or 3 in

41:55 - the Senate is is very, very close.

41:57 - And again, lastly, back to the budget.

42:00 - If this budget were to go

42:01 - on, it would even be more problematic and more convulsive.

42:05 - So they want to get out of town.

42:06 - It is a shame the bill has so subtle

42:09 - that we haven't figured out how he feels about skill gains. So

42:14 - you have to let this know your real meaning there, Mr.

42:16 - Speaker.

42:17 - You know what, Bill?

42:18 - I know that you're interested in words, too, as I am.

42:21 - And of course, since these things

42:23 - are called skill games as of the recent court ruling,

42:26 - they said skill games are slot machines.

42:28 - So does that mean we got to

42:30 - do away with the skill game title? The.

42:32 - That's a misnomer now, isn't it?

42:34 - It's fallacious.

42:35 - It's completely bereft of any meaning.

42:38 - And to the Supreme Court's credit,

42:40 - they pretty much said that they're not skill games.

42:43 - It's it was it was a guy who's now we got to call him

42:47 - something else. That's a lovely letter word.

42:49 - It was a room.

42:49 - It was an industry term.

42:51 - That term was an industrial lobbyist as of the court ruling.

42:56 - That's been buried.

42:57 - Yes. And the court has very clearly stated

43:00 - you a unanimous opinion that they are in fact.

43:03 - And when you go to I'm thinking about a laundromat

43:06 - within the 46 senatorial district.

43:08 - And when you can walk in that laundromat

43:10 - and maybe even be 16, 17, 18 and somebody

43:15 - ostensibly in charge of the laundromat,

43:17 - they're not keeping track

43:18 - of that 17 year old fella in the back

43:20 - that's working on those quote unquote

43:22 - slot machines, skill games, whatever.

43:24 - And as I said, I repeat, the largest

43:26 - growing group of people gambling in the United States.

43:29 - This is not a Pennsylvania study.

43:30 - This was a national study.

43:31 - But I think we would comport with those numbers.

43:34 - 11 year old kids, boys, boys up to 17 years of age,

43:38 - I mean, and you can see it on TV

43:40 - with sports betting and all kinds of things.

43:42 - Gambling is a serious, serious dynamic

43:46 - nationally, and I really would laud the Supreme Court

43:51 - for doing what they did on these on these game.

43:55 - And Bill, I'm glad you shifted the tone on skill games

43:57 - because our discussion up to this point was pretty light.

43:59 - But now you're considering, gambling being a problem.

44:03 - But also on top of that, there's also bonafide concerns

44:06 - about security.

44:07 - Sometimes you hear about these people,

44:09 - these places being robbed, and people get hurt.

44:12 - Yeah, I mean, that's one of the realities or something else

44:15 - the lawmakers will have to worry about in the next four months.

44:19 - And I think that

44:19 - regulation is one of the things that will help to alleviate

44:23 - some of those problems, maybe not eliminate,

44:25 - but alleviate an embarrassing one more time.

44:28 - The state lottery has been not necessarily in jeopardy, but

44:32 - has been buffeted by these quote unquote, skill games.

44:36 - And not only the state lottery,

44:39 - but the 18 casinos that are brick and mortar.

44:42 - And they have billions and billions of dollars invested.

44:45 - Well, they have been jostled around

44:47 - by this new phenomenon of a few years ago called skill games.

44:51 - So the revenue coming in from those 18 facilities,

44:55 - the revenue coming in

44:56 - from the state lottery, will be hopefully regularized.

45:00 - And the that would be good for this budget.

45:03 - Gentlemen, our time left in this show is limited.

45:06 - So with some trepidation, I bring up the next topic.

45:09 - So try to be brief on minimum wage.

45:11 - We know the governor wants to do that.

45:13 - Is that likely something that will flare up as

45:16 - the budget is being negotiated in the coming days?

45:18 - Remember I said, keep it brief, please, Charlie.

45:20 - It always flares up.

45:22 - I mean, look,

45:23 - the minimum wage is a little bit of a canard

45:26 - because you'll

45:27 - have to go a long, long way to find somebody

45:30 - that's actually working for the minimum wage.

45:32 - 725 an hour.

45:33 - You can get down to the local sheets or Wawa

45:37 - or rudders and get a job at 18, 19, 20 bucks an hour.

45:40 - So, you know, the number of people

45:42 - working at the minimum wage is really, really de minimis.

45:46 - It is a political issue.

45:48 - But there are consequences of increasing the minimum wage,

45:51 - which will be negative to those who need it most.

45:55 - Will tell us briefly those consequences.

45:58 - It's it's going to be the elimination

45:59 - of those jobs because of automation rather, etc.

46:05 - Businesses are able to say, well,

46:06 - we're simply going to eliminate those jobs.

46:08 - There was a compromise that was sent over to the state Senate

46:12 - two or 3 or 4 years ago that should have been adopted,

46:14 - in my view, and it would have elevated it

46:17 - incrementally, and we'd probably be at 11, 12 or $13 right now.

46:21 - I would agree with the governor

46:22 - and agree with the House Democrats.

46:23 - I disagree with my friend.

46:25 - I think we should have an increase

46:27 - in the minimum wage again

46:28 - in this constricted time period of the next week or two.

46:31 - It's probably not going to happen.

46:32 - But if I were in the Democratic

46:34 - caucus, I would be advocating for it,

46:35 - and they definitely will.

46:37 - It'll be part of the discussion. I agree with Bill.

46:39 - It won't happen,

46:40 - but it's going to be a it's always part of the discussion.

46:43 - Well, how about this, gentlemen, we have about 30 minutes left.

46:46 - Let's touch on recreational marijuana.

46:48 - And you know,

46:49 - there have been a lot of legislative plans out there

46:51 - that go beyond legalizing marijuana.

46:54 - They are recommending that certain control panels

46:56 - be put together and having to do it sounds like it sometimes

46:59 - it's putting, the cart before the horse.

47:03 - Is this something that will be brought up?

47:04 - Will this flare up like minimum wage in the coming days?

47:08 - I think it will be part of the discussion, but I think

47:10 - it's pretty well agreed that there's no real appetite

47:13 - in the General Assembly right now for passage.

47:16 - So the question becomes, how big of an issue does it,

47:20 - realize itself in the budget discussions?

47:23 - As I've said previously, I think personally

47:27 - that the legalization of recreational marijuana

47:30 - would realize an awful lot of money

47:32 - for people that are currently using marijuana.

47:34 - I mean, to say that

47:36 - there's nobody out there smoking weed is just to bury your head

47:39 - in the sand or somewhere else and not recognize reality.

47:43 - The question of safety comes in here, too, because,

47:47 - you know, a lot of this product now is laced with fentanyl

47:50 - and other stuff.

47:51 - If it's regulated, you're not going to have it more potent.

47:54 - It's downright dangerous,

47:55 - downright dangerous, and potentially lethal.

47:57 - And so, you know, by regulation,

48:00 - you won't have as much of that.

48:01 - You won't have a black market in, marijuana.

48:05 - You have it as a revenue source for the Commonwealth.

48:08 - That's what that used to be, my complete position.

48:11 - And I haven't swiveled away from it all the way.

48:14 - But the studies out there again nationally about youngsters

48:17 - and others that are using recreational

48:19 - marijuana caused me some hesitation

48:23 - and summarized one of those,

48:25 - well, instead of helping you, it sounds like

48:27 - you almost changed your mind, Bill.

48:29 - Well, number one,

48:31 - I was very much in favor of medical marijuana,

48:33 - and at that time I was in favor of recreational marijuana.

48:36 - Now I'm still in favor of the medical marijuana.

48:39 - That would be, as you said, 90%.

48:40 - But I was in favor of it when it was a lot.

48:42 - And you read something that convinced you otherwise

48:44 - a while back, I didn't.

48:46 - I read where we are having some.

48:48 - There's studies out where people are not having good

48:52 - medical reactions to a lifetime,

48:56 - a habit of smoking marijuana on a regular basis.

49:00 - And I don't want to be holier than thou.

49:02 - We let me be very clear that I'm not promoting the use

49:06 - of marijuana.

49:07 - I'm simply saying

49:08 - I want to recognize the reality just to take advantage of it.

49:12 - Well, it's interesting, gentlemen, recently

49:13 - we talked to a reporter

49:15 - who had talked to someone who had gone to the E.R.

49:17 - for marijuana induced sickness, and the doctor

49:21 - said, that's what it is.

49:22 - We're going to give this an official medical code

49:24 - so we can treat this in the future.

49:26 - So that

49:26 - I kind of gives you pause when you read reports like that.

49:30 - Okay.

49:30 - So I'd say we have maybe two minutes here left.

49:34 - And like so many other things on PCN. Yeah.

49:36 - Well not there's not

49:37 - a definitive crystalline response that we can give.

49:41 - That's absolutely forgive the mixed metaphor 24 karat,

49:44 - because I know crystals don't come in Kerry and that's fine.

49:47 - And I'm happy to get that response for sure.

49:49 - So what would you like to say

49:51 - to our viewers here in the waning seconds of our program,

49:54 - about the budget and try to relate it

49:57 - to the average Pennsylvania in any way you can?

49:58 - Bill, and make it brief, please.

50:01 - The average Pennsylvania will appreciate Otto von Bismarck,

50:04 - the great Chancellor of Germany, who said that

50:06 - politics is the art of compromise,

50:08 - the art of the next best.

50:11 - Well, they're going to have

50:12 - they being the men and women on Capitol Hill,

50:14 - along with the governor Shapiro and his team.

50:16 - They're going to have to come up with the art of the next best,

50:18 - because nobody's going to say it is difficult to attain.

50:21 - And here's what I would say to the average Pennsylvanians.

50:23 - Yes, celebrate in every way that you possibly can.

50:27 - American independence and the 250th birthday of this

50:31 - great nation.

50:32 - Because shortly thereafter, the legislature

50:35 - will have a budget for you.

50:36 - Don't worry about it.

50:37 - In the meantime,

50:39 - our guests have been Charlie Darrow, CEO,

50:42 - Quantum Communications and former speaker of the House.

50:46 - Bill DeWitt.

50:46 - Gentlemen, thank you both for joining us.

50:49 - Thank you.

50:50 - Thank you.

50:50 - As Ellen France talked to Representative Russ Diamond

50:54 - about his bill that would eliminate daylight saving time.

50:59 - Welcome to our program.

51:01 - You're proposing legislation to have Pennsylvania stop

51:04 - recognizing daylight savings time. Why?

51:08 - Well,

51:10 - changing clock twice a year is not good for our health.

51:15 - It interrupts the, natural rhythms.

51:19 - The circadian rhythms of the body interrupts our sleep

51:23 - patterns and, you know, the science is pretty clear

51:27 - on this.

51:27 - It's, you know, you see, an increase

51:30 - in heart attack strokes, traffic accidents, decrease in,

51:35 - in productivity

51:37 - and academic achievement from students in schools

51:40 - in those weeks following, the clock change

51:45 - for a year.

51:46 - And, you know, quite frankly, it's an antiquated,

51:50 - practice that never really met the original intent of

51:54 - of why we did it, which was to save energy

51:57 - that never materialized, did materialize

52:00 - was all these negative effects on on public health and safety.

52:04 - Now, there are other states

52:05 - in the country that do not follow daylight savings times.

52:09 - How many other states don't follow this?

52:13 - A lot or.

52:14 - I'm sorry, Arizona and Hawaii do not observe

52:19 - by saving time.

52:20 - And, most of the territories of the United States do not,

52:24 - observe daylight saving time either.

52:28 - And I'll add that most of the world doesn't do this thing.

52:33 - And can you talk about the impact that that has had

52:35 - on the residents of those areas that don't recognize it versus

52:38 - the places like Pennsylvania that do?

52:41 - Well, clearly they don't have the

52:43 - the negative health consequences and safety consequences.

52:47 - They don't have the, the, the,

52:49 - the uptick in in workplace accidents.

52:53 - They don't have the downtick in academic achievement,

52:57 - that all the other states that do

52:59 - change clocks twice a year, actually observe.

53:03 - So, you know, it makes sense to do this, to stop doing it.

53:07 - Most people, by the way, want to stop the practice of changing.

53:14 - Twice a year.

53:15 - What have you heard from your colleagues regarding this bill?

53:19 - Well, it's a mixed bag, to tell you the truth.

53:20 - Everybody wants to stop changing clocks.

53:23 - The argument comes in on what time do you want it to be?

53:27 - When we stop changing clocks?

53:28 - There's there's, a difference between, you know, it's

53:33 - most, actually, a plurality of people actually

53:36 - do prefer staying on standard time.

53:38 - That means not springing forward and not falling back.

53:42 - But there are other people who believe that permanent

53:45 - daylight time is the better.

53:49 - And they do that because they kind of romanticize

53:52 - that late evening sunlight in the middle of summer,

53:55 - when actually most

53:55 - people are in their houses enjoying the air conditioning.

53:58 - So, so, but here the important thing to remember

54:02 - is that a state, under federal law, the uniform Time.

54:06 - Act of 66 cannot go on permanent daylight time on its own,

54:12 - but it can revert to permanent standard time

54:15 - without congressional approval.

54:17 - Anything else would take congressional approval.

54:19 - And quite frankly, I believe that, you know, as a legislative

54:23 - power in Pennsylvania, I was elected to lead,

54:25 - not to follow or to wait for Washington to,

54:27 - you know, make a decision.

54:29 - And I think that we are the Keystone.

54:30 - State for a good reason.

54:32 - I think if Pennsylvania leads on this issue,

54:34 - our neighboring states will quickly follow.

54:37 - Lastly, where is this bill

54:39 - in the legislative process currently?

54:42 - Well, House Bill 119 is currently before the.

54:45 - Intergovernmental Affairs Committee in the House.

54:51 - We did have a hearing on this

54:52 - a couple of weeks ago, and we have a lot of,

54:54 - experts come on, health experts and insurance experts

54:59 - who all backed up the claim that we should remain on

55:02 - standard time rather than going to permanent daylight time,

55:05 - which, by the way, was tried in 1974,

55:09 - and it had such deadly impact that the Congress

55:13 - of the United States

55:15 - canceled the experiment before it was even over.

55:18 - What happened was, kids were walking

55:22 - to school in the dark, to get to the school bus and, not

55:29 - children were actually killed in accidents.

55:31 - So it was quickly repealed after they tried it in 1974.

55:35 - And, you know, those who don't learn from

55:36 - the past are doomed to repeat it.

55:38 - And I think that, but and I will note that before

55:42 - they did that, in 1974, a vast majority of the population

55:47 - reported going to permanent daylight time.

55:49 - But as soon as it became enacted, within about a month,

55:53 - popular support fell from 79% to 42%.

55:57 - So once they saw what actually happened

55:59 - on permanent daylight time,

56:00 - they said, no, we don't want to do that.

56:02 - So the only thing we do

56:05 - legally as a state is remain on permanent standard time.

56:09 - It's the only way we can stop changing clocks twice a year

56:13 - and avoid those negative health and safety consequences.

56:17 - Representative Russ Diamond, thank you for joining us.

56:20 - Thank you.

56:22 - Thanks to Ellen for that interview.

56:25 - Before we go, here's a reminder about Gettysburg battle walks.

56:29 - Park Rangers and battlefield visitors will walk

56:32 - in the footsteps of the soldiers who fought there.

56:36 - Brand new battle walks

56:37 - start Wednesday, Thursday and Friday at 7 p.m..

56:42 - Go to PC and TV.com for schedule details.

56:46 - That's it for the PCN Capitol Preview.

56:48 - I'm Lori Casper. Thanks for watching.