00:00 - The following program is sponsored in part by customers

00:04 - bank.

00:15 - We're joined today

00:16 - by Allison Boden, executive director of the Free Speech Coalition.

00:20 - We're going to talk about a couple of specific pieces

00:21 - of legislation and issues that are of interest to your organization.

00:24 - But for those that are not familiar, what is the Free Speech Coalition?

00:28 - Great question.

00:29 - So in 1991, a group of adult entertainment,

00:35 - company owners essentially were prosecuted

00:37 - by the US government for obscenity violations.

00:43 - They were all prosecuted the same time.

00:46 - And it was, a real, attack on the industry.

00:49 - And so a group came together to form the free Speech Legal Defense Fund

00:55 - to help them defend themselves against the charges.

00:59 - And that organization eventually turned into the Free Speech.

01:03 - Coalition, which is a just a 586 nonprofit trade association.

01:09 - So when we talk about the adult entertainment

01:12 - industry, who specifically what kind of workers are we talking about?

01:15 - It's a really amazingly varied industry.

01:20 - So when we're thinking about in front of the camera folks,

01:24 - you know, even that's changed so much over the last several years.

01:29 - Frankly, it used to be a couple of thousand people

01:31 - in the San Fernando Valley of California.

01:34 - And now with, you know, the explosion of fan platforms

01:39 - where people can upload their content and

01:43 - monetize it, even as like a side, gig,

01:47 - not not just as a full time job, especially during the pandemic.

01:51 - That became a really,

01:54 - attractive way for a lot of folks to make money.

01:56 - So there's everything from folks who are just making their own content

02:01 - at home, you know, buying a camera, streaming it online.

02:05 - There are folks who still work for studio productions.

02:08 - So on a set like this, maybe they would shoot a film

02:13 - all the way to live.

02:16 - Interactions via I mean, essentially like a zoom call where you're,

02:21 - you know, having a conversation, getting to know folks, live.

02:25 - And so there are a lot of different ways to interact with, with,

02:30 - either fans or with recorded media.

02:34 - But our industry is run, you know, by a lot of people in the back offices,

02:38 - too, video editors, directors, producers,

02:43 - the folks who build the websites,

02:47 - the accountants,

02:49 - you know, there are so many,

02:52 - different ways to be involved in our industry.

02:55 - But, I think that what most people are familiar

02:58 - with are sort of the on camera aspects

03:02 - in addition, part of our industry is actually what

03:04 - we call pleasure products, the sorts of things that,

03:08 - you know, help folks in their relationships

03:12 - really bring a lot of joy to folks,

03:15 - manufacturers, retailers.

03:18 - We have a really very varied

03:20 - and always changing, group of folks.

03:24 - That being said, is it

03:24 - possible to even put a number on the amount of revenue

03:26 - that's generated by this industry in the US?

03:29 - That is the million dollar question or maybe the $10 billion question.

03:33 - We've tried. We've thought about it.

03:36 - There are no really public companies.

03:39 - Maybe 1 or 2.

03:41 - And so it's very, very hard to get firm numbers,

03:45 - but I'm pretty comfortable saying it's about a $10 billion industry.

03:49 - Global. Global.

03:51 - Let's talk about some of the specific legislation

03:53 - pending within the Pennsylvania General Assembly

03:55 - that is of interest to your organization.

03:57 - House Bill 1513 sponsor sponsored by Representative Jil Cooper.

04:02 - Would require age verification to access adult online content.

04:06 - Your website characterizes age verification mandates

04:08 - as, quote, ineffective, unconstitutional, and dangerous.

04:12 - End quote. Why?

04:13 - Well, initially, they were unconstitutional due

04:17 - to Supreme Court rulings.

04:19 - Several precedents.

04:22 - Unfortunately, last year, the Supreme Court decided

04:24 - to overrule those precedents and free Speech Coalition v Paxton.

04:29 - So we probably ought to update at least that, aspects of it.

04:34 - But what we've seen is that

04:39 - people who want to enjoy adult

04:41 - entertainment online, generally speaking, don't want to upload their government.

04:46 - ID to a random website to do that.

04:51 - And what that's resulted in

04:53 - is a really ineffective, policy.

04:57 - So at best, folks are just getting on a VPN, changing their location

05:03 - so that they don't appear to be coming from the state that passed the bill.

05:08 - In the worst case.

05:11 - They're just going to websites that don't follow any other laws either.

05:15 - Our members, they follow these laws.

05:17 - They're complying.

05:18 - And so what's happening is not only are they

05:21 - losing customers, which I do care about, but what's worse is

05:26 - these folks are going to websites where there's a lot of dangerous content.

05:33 - Csam other illegal kinds of videos.

05:37 - There's no moderation.

05:39 - And so if anything, I worry frankly that in the name of protecting children,

05:44 - we've actually diverted them to more dangerous options

05:49 - when we could actually be doing this in a way that does protect children.

05:54 - Yes, age verification is required for other purchases in Pennsylvania,

05:58 - such as alcohol or tobacco, or even gambling on Pennsylvania sites.

06:02 - And how is this any different?

06:04 - So the difference is,

06:07 - well, according to the Supreme Court, it's not quite as different.

06:09 - But when we're talking about adult content, we're talking about movies.

06:14 - It's First Amendment protected speech.

06:17 - And so limiting the kinds of things that you're you

06:21 - or I can see in our own homes is generally

06:26 - not allowed under our First Amendment.

06:30 - The reason that

06:31 - in the past, these laws had been struck down

06:35 - was because the barrier of having to prove your age online

06:39 - was so great that the Supreme Court didn't feel that it

06:43 - was in compliance with the First Amendment to make folks do that.

06:48 - That said,

06:49 - now that things are a little bit different,

06:51 - I wouldn't argue that the barrier is any lower, but

06:56 - the issue is

06:58 - is a little bit different from showing your I.D.

07:01 - at, say, a liquor store.

07:03 - You can flash it.

07:04 - That person who looks at it is going to make sure that you're of age.

07:09 - If you're sharing your I.D.

07:10 - online,

07:12 - you are essentially photocopying your identification, handing it

07:16 - over to the person at the liquor store so they can keep it.

07:20 - Hopefully they're going to store it safely.

07:22 - Hopefully they won't do anything untoward with it.

07:25 - But you don't know that.

07:27 - And so now consumers are very worried that

07:33 - they have no

07:33 - idea what's going to happen with the most personal information

07:37 - about them and have it connected to something that's so private.

07:42 - What specific forms of identification are typically utilized for verification?

07:47 - So most laws require government IDs.

07:50 - So driver's license, passport.

07:54 - Some laws allow for folks to,

07:59 - prove their age by

08:02 - essentially giving access to their credit reports.

08:05 - So transactional data like if you have a mortgage,

08:09 - it's generally assumed you're of age.

08:11 - There are other laws, not the bill that's been proposed in Pennsylvania,

08:16 - but in other states that allow any kind of commercial reasonable verification.

08:22 - So that's meant,

08:25 - bio, biological scans.

08:28 - So you are actually, you know, allowing your face to be filmed,

08:34 - your biometrics are uploaded to the verification platform,

08:38 - and then they will grant you access.

08:40 - They generally tend to be within 1 to 2 years.

08:43 - Accurate.

08:44 - So for someone in their 30s that's going to be an easy, quick thing.

08:48 - If you're closer to 18, you're probably going to have to do both.

08:53 - For states that

08:54 - have allowed age verification, such as Louisiana.

08:57 - Have there been proven instances and, an increase in identity theft?

09:01 - Yeah, unfortunately, there have been many, many reports

09:06 - and not even very long after Louisiana passed their law.

09:10 - Their DMV was hacked.

09:13 - It's a very troubling,

09:16 - it's a very troubling security situation, especially because Louisiana

09:20 - really wants you to use their government.

09:23 - Le wallet,

09:26 - digital ID.

09:27 - And so I imagine that was really quite frightening

09:30 - for folks who were trying to utilize that option.

09:33 - And now, oh, wait, the DMVs information is hacked.

09:36 - Could that be my personal browsing history?

09:39 - Can you talk a little bit about what's happened

09:41 - with legal challenges, regarding access to adult content?

09:45 - Yeah.

09:47 - In general,

09:49 - it doesn't matter whether it's a Democratic or Republican administration.

09:53 - Adult content has always been a bit of a political football.

09:57 - A lot of people,

09:59 - don't want other people to, to look at it.

10:02 - And so over the years,

10:05 - there have been a lot of,

10:08 - as I mentioned before, obscenity prosecutions.

10:12 - There have been times when it's it's been quiet.

10:16 - And really, the industry doesn't hear a lot from the government

10:20 - other than the various regulations that we already follow

10:24 - recently.

10:27 - The way that the age verification laws

10:29 - tend to work, they need to define exactly what content they apply to.

10:33 - And generally that is,

10:37 - defined as material harmful to minors.

10:41 - This can take

10:42 - the form of just actual explicit content.

10:46 - Some states define it that way.

10:47 - Others are a lot more broad.

10:49 - And so they sweep in a lot of content

10:52 - that maybe isn't even explicit.

10:57 - But these types of laws

10:59 - have really been proliferating since about 2023.

11:04 - And once the age verification laws have been passed

11:08 - in most of the states, the states said, okay, well, what's next?

11:11 - How else are we going to restrict this content?

11:14 - And so we've seen several states

11:18 - in unsuccessfully so far, but several have tried to ban it outright.

11:22 - Others have gone with,

11:25 - taxes that are not still constitutional.

11:33 - Saying that the kind of content you're watching

11:35 - is subject to a tax in one case and not another.

11:39 - That's not how our First Amendment works,

11:41 - but we're seeing kind of creative ideas

11:44 - for how to restrict folks access to adult content.

11:50 - What kind of policies or technology would you support to prevent children

11:53 - from accessing adult content?

11:55 - We absolutely don't want children access sentimental content.

11:59 - There is

12:01 - nothing we want more than to only have adult customers.

12:05 - And so we've been really thinking about this

12:07 - because the laws are very strict about the kinds of age verification one can use,

12:12 - but we're seeing them

12:15 - completely bypassed by customers.

12:19 - And so we've started looking into

12:21 - and I think this is the actual solution, potentially the idea that,

12:25 - you know, your digital device, maybe it your phone knows how old you are.

12:30 - Or it could.

12:33 - And it could share a status

12:35 - 18 above 18 or not without sharing your photo.

12:40 - Everything else that goes onto your government identification.

12:44 - And we really think that that's enough of a protection

12:47 - for consumers, their privacy, because it can't be linked back

12:50 - to who you are as an individual and can't be used to.

12:54 - Frankly, created marketing

12:57 - profile of you online.

13:00 - And it's a lot more user friendly

13:03 - to click the button that says, yep, it's okay to share

13:06 - the fact that I'm 18 or above with this website than it is

13:10 - to go through the process of photographing the ID

13:14 - and sort of doing the face scan.

13:17 - And so we really think that not only would that be an easier, way

13:22 - to comply for adults, it would also protect children more,

13:26 - because if a phone knows that a young person is using it who is an 18,

13:32 - there are a lot of other protections that can be enabled.

13:37 - I know

13:38 - that, you know, a lot of parental controls

13:41 - can be really difficult

13:43 - to, to set up in certain cases.

13:46 - And the idea of having them on by default for a minor just makes sense to us.

13:52 - And so we really think that it would solve a lot of problems

13:55 - not only for adults, but protect children better.

13:59 - And that's what we're hoping to do.

14:00 - Let's move on to another piece of legislation.

14:02 - If you could comment on a bill sponsored by Senator Marty Flynn in Pennsylvania,

14:06 - proposes a 10% subscription fee for adult online content.

14:10 - I totally understand where Senator Flames coming from.

14:14 - States need to raise revenue.

14:16 - But targeting one kind of content versus another

14:21 - doesn't really work in this case.

14:24 - It's as though movies that or horror movies are taxed at 10%,

14:28 - and then romances will make it will make them free.

14:32 - So I would encourage, the senator to think about

14:37 - how he could do the kind of bill he wants in a content neutral way.

14:41 - Maybe it's all streaming services or subscriptions

14:45 - could be subject to a tax, certainly,

14:48 - but targeting particular content in this case isn't constitutional.

14:52 - Do other states targeted specifically adult online content for taxation?

14:57 - They have, and we have not yet challenged them in court.

15:02 - But I think that it's

15:05 - going to happen eventually,

15:07 - because these kinds of limits on

15:11 - the content that people can consume. It's

15:14 - it's very much making it more expensive in order to push people away from it.

15:20 - And that is not the role of our government to tell us what we can read or watch

15:25 - in the United States.

15:26 - The Free Speech Coalition's website, talks quite a bit

15:30 - about banking discrimination.

15:31 - Can you explain how that works and what kind of banking discrimination

15:34 - you've been made aware of?

15:36 - Yeah, absolutely.

15:38 - Not many folks know that banks, unless they're discriminating against you

15:44 - on the basis of your race, your gender identity.

15:48 - They can close down your bank account for any reason they want.

15:53 - And a lot of banks

15:56 - rely on, we think, two things.

16:00 - The concept of reputational risk, which is that it wouldn't look good

16:04 - for the bank to publicly be known to a banking, an individual

16:08 - or a company, and a misunderstanding of human trafficking that

16:15 - sees content creators

16:18 - as potential victims.

16:21 - I think that that's led them to,

16:25 - instead of making sure that those people are protected,

16:29 - push them off of,

16:31 - push them out of the regulated banking system.

16:34 - Sadly, that actually subjects them to human trafficking risk.

16:39 - So as an adult content creator who's engaging in no illegal

16:44 - activity whatsoever,

16:46 - they get a check or a transfer from an adult content company.

16:52 - When the bank sees that, they flag it for human review to make sure

16:56 - that there isn't a human trafficking risk that costs the bank money.

17:00 - When you get those kinds of, flags, all the time, the bank is going to say,

17:05 - well, we don't want to spend this kind of money to keep an eye on this.

17:10 - The bank account shut down.

17:12 - We've seen this kind of thing happen with other industries.

17:15 - Firearms extraction.

17:17 - Even certain religious groups have been debunked.

17:21 - And I think the the most unusual aspect of this for our industry is it's not just

17:27 - the companies that are losing their bank accounts,

17:31 - but actual individual workers. You know,

17:35 - to my knowledge, no employee

17:37 - of a gun shop or, you know, drill rigger

17:41 - is is out there like unable to be banked, but unfortunately,

17:47 - just individuals trying to make a living

17:50 - are losing access to their personal checking and savings.

17:53 - Once that happens, other banks are made aware of it.

17:57 - It's almost impossible to open another bank account.

18:02 - The only things you have left to do

18:05 - are to put your money in the hands of someone else.

18:10 - That is actually how you are at risk for human trafficking.

18:13 - That person can exploit you.

18:15 - And so I think that whether it's a well-meaning policy or not, it's

18:20 - having the opposite effect and actually really putting a lot of folks in danger.

18:25 - 2018 article in wired detailed digital harassment campaigns

18:29 - led by an online male community who identifies themselves as incels

18:32 - or involuntary celibate, targeting women who sold online adult images.

18:36 - Can you talk a little bit about the impact of these campaigns and how they work?

18:39 - Yeah, it's really tragic.

18:41 - So these individuals,

18:44 - despite,

18:46 - apparently consuming this content,

18:48 - were, I mean, various misogynistic, I think it's fair to say.

18:53 - And they know that this is happening to these adult content creators.

18:58 - So what they did was have a coordinated campaign

19:02 - to out those creators to their banks, caused them to lose their bank accounts

19:07 - and potentially be, audited by the IRS.

19:12 - It's it's unthinkable just to have people

19:16 - targeting you online for doing your job.

19:21 - Being a human being.

19:22 - Being a woman.

19:24 - And this was a real problem

19:27 - at that point and potentially flares up now and then.

19:34 - It tends to be targeted more.

19:35 - Right now it's not a full scale attack, but like

19:39 - this can happen to anybody.

19:41 - Our our creators were were very much targeted.

19:44 - So you talk about how some folks who work as individuals

19:48 - in the adult content industry have been debating what options do

19:51 - they have them to conduct their day to day financial transactions?

19:54 - It's really tough because a lot of times,

19:57 - you'll just get a notice from your bank saying, hey,

19:59 - your account is going to be closed, whether it's right now or in 30 days.

20:03 - They will not tell you why, and sometimes they will hold on to your money.

20:08 - They can hold it for up to six months.

20:11 - Everything in your checking or savings account.

20:14 - So what ends up happening is that people have to borrow money

20:17 - in order to pay the rent.

20:18 - In order to pay for childcare.

20:20 - They can sometimes put money

20:24 - into the accounts of a partner, but banks are aware of you know,

20:29 - what our relationships are and that person may end up being the bank as well.

20:34 - It's it's very,

20:37 - it's a very limited set of options you have at that point.

20:40 - And so maybe they are putting money into the bank accounts

20:46 - of a manager or someone else that they work with

20:50 - that can give them some amount of access to it.

20:53 - But also, you know, some folks have decided

20:56 - to put their money into crypto because that seems safer.

21:00 - It's it's a bunch of bad options, frankly.

21:04 - What does the Free Speech Coalition and perhaps individuals like yourself

21:08 - do to fight against any stigma

21:10 - that may be connected with the adult entertainment industry?

21:13 - You know, I think that a lot of that stigma comes

21:15 - from just a lack of information.

21:18 - A lot of people have no idea how this industry works.

21:21 - They think a lot of bad things, and there's a whole lot of bad things.

21:26 - And so what we try to do

21:29 - is demystify exactly what's going on.

21:32 - Introduce our content creators and our performers

21:36 - to the public as actual human beings, not just as actors, because, you know,

21:42 - someone who's doing a performance isn't the same person who's doing an interview.

21:46 - And so you'll see on our social media in the next couple of months,

21:50 - we actually filmed a lot of interviews with adult performers

21:55 - about their real lives, about being parents, about

21:59 - going to school, about their their experiences in the industry, good and bad.

22:05 - Because

22:06 - there aren't a lot of really great jobs.

22:09 - There's not a lot of like,

22:11 - you know, people who love going to work every day.

22:14 - But by and large, the folks who work in our industry are among them.

22:18 - It's a job you do because you enjoy it, and a lot of people get into the industry

22:23 - because they are curious and want to explore in a safe way.

22:26 - And so then being able to share those stories with folks who

22:31 - maybe are under the impression that human

22:33 - trafficking is going on or that women are exploited.

22:37 - I think it can really change minds and open people's hearts to,

22:42 - oh, these are just my neighbors.

22:43 - These are just

22:45 - people I know that do something a little different for work.

22:49 - What will the.

22:49 - Free Speech Coalition do, particularly to address the two pending

22:52 - pieces of legislation that we talked about today in Pennsylvania?

22:55 - Well, we've been meeting with legislators here in Harrisburg,

22:58 - and I will say

23:02 - people here just want to solve the problem.

23:04 - I know legislators are just trying

23:06 - to keep kids from accessing inappropriate content.

23:10 - We share the same goals.

23:12 - And so they're very open to okay, well, if it's not going to work

23:15 - this way, let's try to do it another way.

23:18 - So it's really been productive.

23:20 - I've enjoyed many of those conversations, and I think that

23:24 - hopefully we have a path forward that

23:27 - relies on the devices, makes them more protective

23:30 - of children on the porn text.

23:33 - You know those meetings as well.

23:35 - I think that

23:37 - whether or not that

23:39 - that bill actually gets through.

23:43 - People do understand the idea that, well, you can't,

23:46 - you know, text this type of book and not that type of book.

23:50 - And I hope that that argument really carries the day

23:55 - in the end.

23:56 - You know, it'll be up to legislators.

23:58 - But I think that if they just need to read funds,

24:03 - a streaming tax could be it.

24:04 - I don't know how Pennsylvanians are going to feel about that,

24:07 - but it's at least important to get it out in public

24:10 - so that we can debate it instead of it kind of happening when no one's looking.

24:15 - We've been speaking with Allison Boden, executive director of the Free Speech.

24:18 - Coalition. Thanks for joining us. Thank you.