00:00 - The following program is sponsored in part by customers

00:03 - bank.

00:13 - Chris Kirchner,

00:15 - executive director of the Child Advocacy Centers of Pennsylvania.

00:19 - What does your group do?

00:23 - Children's Advocacy

00:24 - Centers of Pennsylvania is the state association that supports

00:28 - children's advocacy centers across the state, located in counties.

00:33 - So we have 40 children's advocacy centers in Pennsylvania,

00:37 - and we are working to develop programs where there aren't any yet.

00:41 - And my association, there are seven of us here in Harrisburg,

00:46 - and we provide training and technical assistance and growth,

00:51 - support, support counties to develop cases.

00:55 - We, you know, we do marketing work related to the issue of child sexual abuse

01:00 - specifically, as well as what what our cases do across the country.

01:05 - And, we're really kind of a resource, a support system,

01:11 - trying to make sure that our centers have everything they need.

01:14 - You know, they're they're governed independently.

01:16 - We're not the governing body.

01:18 - We are a support agency.

01:19 - And there's a state chapter in every state.

01:22 - So, we are seen as, you know,

01:25 - a strong resource for individual programs that are doing this work.

01:29 - Chris, tell us just how big a problem is

01:32 - child abuse in Pennsylvania.

01:35 - You know, child abuse is

01:38 - it's really a problem everywhere.

01:43 - We our our our data at Children's Advocacy

01:47 - Center shows that our numbers have kind of leveled off.

01:52 - Last year, we saw 13,000 children at our children's advocacy centers.

01:57 - That would be 2025.

01:59 - And that was similar to prior years.

02:03 - And that includes both child sexual abuse cases.

02:06 - The majority are actually child sexual abuse cases as well as physical abuse

02:11 - cases.

02:11 - And we also, intervene and can help with child

02:16 - witness to violence cases, things like that.

02:19 - I'll talk a little bit more about what exactly Casey is do.

02:23 - But in their counties, they are partnering with the child

02:27 - welfare Agency and the law enforcement agencies, both local municipalities

02:32 - and state police, to effect a collaborative response

02:35 - when there's a report of abuse in that county that rises to the level

02:40 - of being serious physical abuse or, sexual abuse.

02:44 - Now tell me more about the geographic distribution of these advocacy centers.

02:49 - You said you have 40.

02:50 - We have 67 counties, of course.

02:52 - So you almost have one for every county.

02:55 - Almost.

02:55 - Not quite.

02:56 - And so the way that breaks down is our larger

03:00 - population based counties have children's advocacy centers.

03:04 - You know, they had the resources.

03:06 - They had the number of cases to justify this program, developing this program.

03:11 - And a lot of our, a lot of our counties that don't have them are smaller.

03:17 - They are very rural drive times across the county are large.

03:23 - And so, we are working hard

03:25 - to overcome some of those challenges in those smaller counties.

03:29 - You know, our our focus as a chapter is to ensure that every child

03:33 - has access to the services

03:35 - of a children's advocacy center, no matter where they live.

03:38 - And that CSC has a full array of services.

03:42 - It's interesting.

03:43 - You know, we were we were slow to develop.

03:46 - This is a national movement started in a county in Alabama

03:50 - with a prosecutor who said, you know, I'm losing I'm losing child

03:53 - sexual abuse cases.

03:54 - This was in the mid 80s before we were even really talking

03:57 - that much about child sexual abuse.

03:59 - And he said, I'm losing it

04:00 - because losing the case is because by the time they get to me,

04:03 - kids don't want to talk about it anymore.

04:05 - They've been interviewed multiple times by people who,

04:08 - were well-meaning but didn't really know how to question children about abuse.

04:13 - And so he started to center and at the same time,

04:16 - the states around the country and including Pennsylvania,

04:19 - we were scratching our heads and saying, wow, we are getting a lot more reports

04:23 - of alleged child sexual abuse, and we don't feel like we know totally

04:27 - what we're doing. In 1988 and 1989.

04:30 - So so that started the movement in the country.

04:35 - And then gradually, every year,

04:38 - you know, we got a new county kind of joining joining us.

04:43 - And I was a,

04:44 - I was a director of the Philadelphia Children's Alliance for many years.

04:48 - But it was slow going until,

04:53 - he weighed about

04:53 - 20 cases, 20 counties, not cases, 20 counties were covered.

04:57 - And then we had Sandusky and the Sandusky case illustrated there.

05:03 - It really illustrated it brought home the challenges

05:06 - when you have multiple agencies who intervene.

05:09 - So child welfare agency, law enforcement, prosecution, medical, mental health,

05:14 - all intervening in some way and not necessarily coordinating,

05:19 - with Sandusky, there was actually there were a few cases

05:22 - that were investigated prior to the Penn State,

05:25 - situation coming, coming forward.

05:28 - And, and neither law enforcement nor child welfare

05:30 - did anything in those situations.

05:32 - They, you know,

05:33 - they advised him to stay away from kids and did did nothing really helpful.

05:38 - And, and that that became sort of

05:41 - a, a watershed moment for us in Pennsylvania.

05:45 - So, there was,

05:48 - fine on Penn State after that.

05:51 - And 48 million went into a fund at the state level

05:55 - to be used to address child sexual abuse issues and cases.

05:59 - And a lot of that has gone to support children's advocacy centers.

06:03 - And then the state really did want to find funding for cases at that time.

06:08 - But there really wasn't a lot of money.

06:10 - So they doubled the birth certificate fee from $10 to $20.

06:15 - And that extra $10 a year funds,

06:19 - fund about $2.2 million.

06:21 - So each of the 40 children's advocacy centers gets $50,000 from that fund,

06:26 - and the chapter gets $400,000 for our operations to support all of them.

06:31 - So all of that happened in like, the 2012 to 2014 time frame.

06:37 - As a result of that very high profile, high profile case.

06:43 - And so

06:44 - there is there there those funds continue to this day.

06:48 - That $48 million, fine.

06:51 - It was, was put into a fund at the state administered by the Pennsylvania

06:55 - Commission on Crime and Delinquency, and it's called the Endowment Fund,

06:58 - and it has been used to support cases with direct services.

07:03 - It has been used to create a lot

07:06 - of unique, programing that we wouldn't have had otherwise.

07:10 - So right now, there are some telehealth and tala mental health programs

07:15 - that are being underwritten by Endowment Act funding.

07:19 - There is a large statewide prevention program

07:22 - that is entirely funded by endowment at funding.

07:27 - And so I'm on the Children's

07:28 - Advocacy Center Advisory Committee, I'm chair of it, and we oversee that.

07:33 - Those funds, along with staff at PCC and,

07:36 - it's it's it's our job to,

07:39 - kind of identify the most worthwhile projects to fund

07:42 - and also try to maintain the funding.

07:44 - So that it lasts as long as possible

07:47 - because it's gradually getting whittled down.

07:49 - Chris, let's go back to a remark you made a few minutes ago

07:52 - about the majority of child abuse cases.

07:54 - Your handling are sexual in nature, and the dad in front of me is 10,000

07:59 - out of 14,000 cases in Pennsylvania

08:02 - in 2020, five were of a sexual nature.

08:05 - Now I want to know how the advocacy centers,

08:09 - spring into action when they learn about a case.

08:12 - What usually happens.

08:13 - Walk us through that, please.

08:15 - Sure. Absolutely.

08:16 - So a report comes in to child welfare or law enforcement,

08:20 - and they they do their preliminary assessment

08:24 - without talking to the child if they can help it.

08:27 - If they have to go out to the home and do what we call

08:30 - a minimal fact interview, we tell them, just talk to the caregiver

08:33 - and get the child to the Children's Advocacy Center as quickly as possible.

08:38 - And so the, the child and family would go to the CAC

08:43 - and the law enforcement officer and the child protective service worker,

08:47 - would meet the family at the Children's Advocacy Center.

08:51 - So, for example,

08:52 - when I was in Philadelphia, we actually were housed

08:54 - with the Special Victims Unit of the police.

08:56 - We we built a building that was big enough for all of us.

09:00 - So when there was a case, they just walked across the hall

09:02 - and child welfare was around the corner and they came over.

09:05 - So the first thing, in addition to,

09:09 - you know, everybody being alerted to the fact that there's a case,

09:14 - almost every night, almost every many cases

09:17 - are a joint law enforcement, child welfare investigation.

09:21 - It's a crime.

09:22 - And it's also a child abuse allegation.

09:25 - Some cases are just law enforcement

09:28 - where the perpetrator is not a custodian,

09:32 - which DHS needs in order to to respond.

09:36 - But that those cases still come to the Children's Advocacy Center.

09:40 - And the first thing that happens there, in addition to kind of a very child

09:44 - friendly facility, they're not being interviewed in a police station.

09:48 - They're not being interviewed in a medical facility.

09:51 - It's very child friendly and welcoming.

09:53 - And the team so the child welfare worker, the police

09:56 - officer, and, one of our forensic interviewers.

10:00 - So cases are known for having specialists on staff whose sole

10:05 - job it is all day, every day to interview children about allegations of abuse.

10:10 - And they're called forensic interviewers.

10:11 - And they would facilitate a kind of a meeting with the caregiver.

10:15 - Tell us about the allegations.

10:17 - Tell us about what happened, what, you know,

10:19 - and then they would conduct an interview in one room,

10:22 - and child welfare and law enforcement would watch from another room.

10:26 - And it would be videotaped so that the whole

10:30 - the whole interview was on video.

10:32 - And then while that's happening, the victim advocate at the Children's

10:35 - Advocacy Center is meeting with the caregiver to answer their questions.

10:39 - They do not watch the interview.

10:41 - We answer their questions.

10:43 - We if they need additional resources right away, they might be

10:46 - connected to other resources.

10:49 - And and so the first

10:50 - thing that happens is this team meets and then they

10:54 - have this interview, which they observe and they have an opportunity.

10:58 - You know,

10:58 - the interviewer might take a break and come over and say,

11:01 - is there anything else that you want me to ask that I didn't ask so far.

11:05 - And our interviewers are really highly trained.

11:09 - They have a there's there's all kinds of special classes, that they attend.

11:13 - And they also, are peer reviewed.

11:16 - So you can peer review them because you have a video

11:19 - and you can see exactly how they ask the question.

11:21 - In the old days, you know, when these cases went to court,

11:25 - defense attorneys would say, well, how did you ask that question?

11:28 - You know, you asked a leading question.

11:30 - That's why that child said that.

11:32 - And now you just turn on the video and you can see exactly

11:36 - how the child was questioned.

11:38 - And that it didn't you that it did not use lead,

11:41 - they did not use leading questions.

11:43 - And then there's a whole there's a whole body of literature around

11:47 - memory and suggestibility for children as well as,

11:51 - you know, how to ask questions in a way that keeps keeps conversation going.

11:55 - So a child says, you know, something happened.

11:58 - And then the interviewer doesn't

12:01 - pass any kind of judgment, just says, oh, well, then what happened?

12:04 - And then what happened?

12:05 - And then what happened?

12:07 - And just continues to do that to the extent that the child wants to

12:12 - and can talk about it, because not everybody is comfortable talking about it,

12:16 - and interviewers really have to go very slowly and carefully.

12:20 - Younger children, you know, we would interview children

12:22 - as young as two and a half.

12:24 - And obviously you're not going to ask them the same kind of questions.

12:27 - And sometimes with a child that young,

12:29 - it's really hard to figure out what happened

12:32 - unless there's some type of medical evidence or something.

12:35 - But the older the child gets, the you know, you, you kind of tailor

12:39 - your questioning for their developmental level. And,

12:44 - yeah.

12:44 - So that that is the first step.

12:46 - It's kind of this collaboration, this, this wraparound support

12:50 - for the caregiver, you know, introducing them to everybody.

12:53 - Here's the police officer who's going to help you.

12:55 - Here's a child welfare worker who's going to help you.

12:58 - This is the person you're going to be talking to.

13:00 - And and we can, you know, our our interviewers are trained in, you know,

13:05 - interviewing special needs kids.

13:08 - If a child has,

13:11 - you know, for, for deaf kids, we have all the protocols

13:14 - around the deaf interpreters in the, in the room with the child.

13:19 - If it's a child who doesn't speak English at, PCA, we had

13:23 - we had Spanish speaking interviewers, but we did not have others,

13:27 - so we would use interpreters for those cases.

13:30 - Most of the time, the kids couldn't speak English.

13:33 - They'd been in the schools and the caregivers maybe couldn't speak English.

13:36 - But we wanted to make sure

13:37 - that that child had every opportunity to talk about what happened.

13:43 - In a, in a, in a very supported, yeah.

13:46 - Professional way.

13:49 - Question.

13:50 - Chris, it sounds like your interviewers just have to be

13:53 - very sensitive to the limitations of children.

13:57 - They they don't want to belabor the point and maybe

14:00 - even risk retraumatizing that child.

14:04 - Yep. Yep.

14:05 - They also don't want to introduce any language that the child has abused.

14:09 - And now maybe the child parrots that back and is saying

14:12 - something that really didn't, didn't come from them.

14:15 - Absolutely.

14:16 - It's a, it's a, it's a hard job.

14:18 - And I think, I think that's where the peer review is so important.

14:23 - We do quarterly peer review.

14:25 - And, and folks have to have a thick skin,

14:28 - just to ensure that that, that everything is, is going well.

14:31 - And we there are all kinds of specialized trainings to that supplement

14:36 - once they're initially trained.

14:38 - You know, we we have we're

14:40 - working now with, youth with problematic sexual behaviors.

14:44 - So some kids who are acting out,

14:45 - ten, 11, 12 year olds are acting out on other kids.

14:48 - And so our interviewers are specially equipped

14:51 - to be able to question, not only the

14:54 - what you might call the victim, but also the child who is acting out.

14:58 - And we don't call them offenders anymore.

15:00 - We call them youth with problematic sexual behaviors who need some help

15:04 - and and maybe wouldn't when, you know, fall under the heading of juvenile

15:09 - offender, which is unfortunately what we what we used in the, in the past.

15:15 - Chris, let's talk about let's let's go on to talk about

15:18 - funding from Pennsylvania for survivors of child abuse.

15:23 - How much do you rely on the state for funding your operations?

15:27 - Yeah, right now it really is only the $50,000

15:31 - that is guaranteed to every children's advocacy center that I referenced

15:34 - earlier around, the birth certificate fees.

15:37 - And then there are some competitive grants that 48 million,

15:42 - right now there's a competitive grant out to fund victim advocate services.

15:46 - We have victim advocacy services at every CAC.

15:49 - You said there was a competitive grant.

15:51 - It's only two years and it's not it's not guaranteed.

15:55 - So other than that every every county

15:58 - has to find their own way to supplement their budgets.

16:02 - Our, you know, our center budgets range from like $150,000

16:06 - to, the largest jurisdiction.

16:10 - It's like $4 million and everything in between.

16:13 - And they're they're making up the difference in different ways.

16:16 - So in some counties,

16:17 - the children and youth Agency will give an open ended contract.

16:21 - Here's funding for you to interview

16:23 - as many kids as you need to interview this year.

16:25 - Some counties do a case by case.

16:27 - Here's a here's a contract you can interview for every kid you interview.

16:31 - We'll pay you x.

16:32 - Some county commissioners do fund children's advocacy centers,

16:36 - some prosecutor's offices, but it's random and there's no rhyme or reason.

16:41 - There's no specific amount to from any county.

16:44 - It's really. And fundraising.

16:46 - They do a lot of fundraising.

16:47 - They spend a lot of time, you know, it it boggles my mind sometimes.

16:51 - They're almost their first responders.

16:52 - They need to be able to be on, you know, on it.

16:55 - The minute a case comes in and you can't wait three days to bring a child

16:59 - in, you can't wait a week to bring a child.

17:00 - And once they disclose, you want to make sure they're safe

17:03 - and you want to make sure they feel that they have the opportunity

17:06 - to talk about what happened as quickly as possible.

17:08 - So so yeah.

17:09 - So it's there's not a lot of other funding.

17:12 - And we did a study with, with PCD and the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime

17:17 - and Delinquency that showed that every, every center generally across the state

17:21 - is trying to make up about $300,000 in funding.

17:25 - Well, how about this, Chris, is there any news in Governor Shapiro's

17:29 - new budget proposal that would interest the child advocacy centers?

17:34 - There is not.

17:36 - We had been talking with the administration last year and last year.

17:42 - It was a tricky year for budgeting in Pennsylvania.

17:45 - And, you know, we've been working, talking with legislators

17:48 - and and really did not have any luck.

17:51 - And we're not optimistic that we would have luck this year.

17:56 - Well, let's look at it this way, Chris.

17:57 - If you were able to secure

17:59 - extra funding, what would you like to do with that money?

18:02 - You know, it's a great question.

18:04 - I it would definitely go on the ground to the kids across the state.

18:09 - And, you know, someone asked me asked me well, what for what they said,

18:14 - well, honestly, they each need something a little bit different.

18:19 - And so some would want funding for the forensic interviewer position

18:23 - and maybe they need more than one

18:25 - position, depending on how many reports they have in their county.

18:28 - And we also offer medicals.

18:30 - So we offer medical evaluations on site.

18:33 - In an ideal world, every kid would have access to a medical,

18:38 - and last year

18:40 - we did about 4500 medicals at children's advocacy centers.

18:44 - They are one of the main entry points

18:47 - for child sexual abuse victims getting medical exams.

18:50 - But there aren't enough that even that number,

18:54 - is is not doesn't cover everybody who needs a medical exam.

18:58 - So it could be for salaries, for medical, for, forensic interviewers.

19:03 - It could be for the services

19:05 - of a physician, whether that's a contract with a local hospital.

19:09 - And they have to be specialists, too.

19:10 - It can't just be anybody.

19:13 - We also, you know, they have a lot of overhead with their facilities.

19:16 - They often require a coordinator.

19:19 - So we have a coordinator on staff.

19:20 - We call them multidisciplinary

19:22 - team coordinators who are reaching out to all those different agencies.

19:25 - When there's an allegation of abuse. Okay.

19:27 - We have an interview tomorrow at nine.

19:29 - Can you come?

19:30 - Can you come?

19:30 - And, this is what we're going to do.

19:34 - And so there's staffing, there's overhead, there's services.

19:38 - There's forensic interviewing, medical exams, therapy.

19:41 - You know, research shows that therapy is one of the best ways

19:45 - to mitigate kind of lifelong impact of abuse.

19:49 - Know we hear from survivors a lot,

19:52 - about how long how the trauma does not go away on its own.

19:58 - If anything, it can get worse.

20:00 - I don't know if you're familiar with the ACS study Adverse Childhood

20:02 - Experiences, kids who had adverse child experiences in childhood,

20:06 - including abuse, you know, without intervention, they have mental health.

20:10 - And then it manifests

20:11 - as physical challenges as well and then manifests as a shorter lifespan.

20:15 - It's an incredible study that has kind of branched off into lots of other studies.

20:20 - And that's I feel like that's what's at stake

20:22 - when there's an allegation of abuse and we don't respond.

20:25 - Right.

20:26 - You know, we have eight different people talking to the kid in different settings.

20:29 - And, and, and then the child says, no one, no one believes me.

20:32 - I'm just I'm done talking.

20:34 - And, and then they're back in a risky situation.

20:37 - So let's get into some legislation that is being proposed, Chris.

20:42 - And this has to do with, two lawmakers are working on something

20:46 - they called the Child Victim Recovery Fund.

20:49 - These representatives would be Mullens and Rigby.

20:52 - What details are known at this point?

20:55 - Yes. So, you know, knowing

20:58 - that we were probably not going to be able to get a line item in the state budget.

21:03 - We thought about what might be some other approaches

21:06 - and looked around the country to see what other other states were doing.

21:09 - And one one area was sort of a restitution type fee.

21:14 - We're not calling it restitution, but we are working with Mullins and Rigby

21:18 - to write, to write a bill that would, add

21:23 - a fee on to the fines

21:26 - that offenders, offenders of child abuse, pay.

21:30 - Now, it would be in addition to the restitution that they already pay.

21:34 - It would be after those other five, those other restitution fines are paid.

21:39 - And we are still working on the actual bill.

21:42 - The representative circulated a memo,

21:45 - about a month ago asking for some preliminary support.

21:49 - And we I think we got about 26, co-sponsors at that time.

21:54 - Others, other legislators haven't signed on

21:57 - because they want to see the bill.

21:58 - And I understand that.

22:00 - So we are actually, meeting later this week

22:04 - to work on that bill and hope to have something

22:07 - finalized that we can take to the rest of the legislators in the House,

22:12 - you know,

22:12 - demonstrating exactly, exactly what we're looking for.

22:16 - And it's not finalized yet, but we're looking at, you know, for felonies,

22:21 - a $1,000 fee for misdemeanors, a $400 fee,

22:25 - and for diversionary programs, 250.

22:28 - And we are also, you know, how is that established?

22:31 - Chris, did you look at the example of other states?

22:34 - We looked at the example of other states.

22:36 - We looked at the crime, the crimes in Pennsylvania, and decided

22:39 - preliminarily it's not done yet which crimes would fit in there.

22:43 - And so we we kind of wanted to make sure that we were at least going

22:47 - to make kind of raise enough money

22:50 - to make this all worthwhile for our cases.

22:53 - And so based on on the fines are based on the crimes and, and thinking about

22:59 - what happened in other states, we came up with those numbers.

23:02 - We still don't know exactly how much it would raise.

23:06 - And we know that sometimes it can be a challenge to collect fines and fees.

23:11 - But we were projecting about about,

23:16 - $4 million a year now in the district.

23:20 - Chris, in order to pay the fee, the defendant in these cases

23:24 - has to be found guilty.

23:26 - How often are child abusers convicted?

23:29 - Is that's a tricky part.

23:32 - It is part of the it's a moving part.

23:34 - Yes, yes.

23:35 - They are they are convicted.

23:38 - Interestingly, this is anecdotal, but we've gotten some we've gotten some

23:43 - donations from offenders who were ordered

23:45 - by a judge after their case was overturned or not.

23:48 - Not after, but as our case was ending to to make

23:51 - a donation in addition to the restitution.

23:55 - And so that is a challenge, but our calculations

24:00 - to the $4 million factored in factored that in.

24:04 - And then we're also hoping to work with folks at the capital

24:08 - to do a deeper dive into projected numbers once the bill is available.

24:13 - Once the bill is available.

24:15 - There were some budget folks in the at the state that will do that work as well.

24:19 - So when the bill does become available, is that when you spring

24:22 - into action at the Capitol and visit lawmakers?

24:25 - Yep. We have been visiting lawmakers even without the bill,

24:28 - because some were clearly inclined to support it without seeing the bill.

24:33 - We have a memo that we circulated.

24:35 - But yes, so as we have the bill, we will totally spring into action.

24:39 - We're also doing some kind of meet and greet at a couple of our cases.

24:44 - We're inviting legislators from the Lackawanna County area

24:47 - and the Cumberland County area and the Allegheny County area

24:51 - to visit their cases.

24:53 - We have those scheduled

24:54 - for the last two weeks of April, in the first week of May, just to,

24:58 - and some of them cover, like a regional area.

25:01 - So it would be more than one county

25:03 - that that we would be, asking inviting legislators from.

25:07 - But I think, I think to really understand the value of a county

25:11 - and the importance of the county, it's great to take a tour and to hear from

25:14 - law enforcement and child welfare and the folks doing the work,

25:18 - and to see the facility kind of that visual.

25:20 - Oh, here's where they do interviews. Here's where the victim advocacy is.

25:23 - Here's where the therapy is.

25:24 - Here's the medical exam suite.

25:26 - Here's the conference room

25:27 - where the team all convenes afterward to talk about next steps.

25:32 - Last question, Chris, what do you do to engage

25:35 - with the public in order for them to learn more about the good work you're doing?

25:39 - With the exception of our program today, of course.

25:43 - The program today, of course.

25:45 - You know, we we have an April campaign of our own.

25:50 - So April's Child Abuse Prevention and Awareness Month

25:52 - and all of our cases across the state are doing things to bring attention

25:55 - to their work and to the issue, and we do some of that as well.

25:58 - We attend their events, but we also have our own campaign, our own online

26:02 - campaign, around bodies and boundaries.

26:05 - It's, it's social media, it's hard copy, papers.

26:09 - And we also have a shine campaign.

26:11 - So we have a, a shine campaign shining a light on the issue of child sexual abuse.

26:16 - And it runs for for July and August.

26:19 - And then we,

26:20 - and then we have a walk from City Island to the Capitol steps in September.

26:25 - And the public is more than welcome to join us.

26:27 - And pancake Pen and Walk is our website.

26:32 - They will find more information about it. There.

26:35 - All right.

26:35 - Chris Kirchner, executive director of the Child

26:38 - Advocacy Centers of Pennsylvania, thank you for your time.

26:42 - Thank you so very much.