00:11 - Today we're speaking with Robert finale

00:13 - author of Lydia's tale the mystery of Lydia darragh.

00:18 - Irish quaker

00:19 - and patriots by

00:21 - now who is Lydia.

00:24 - Will you bearers a woman who lived in Philadelphia in the late eighteenth century

00:29 - when she was here during the American revolution.

00:32 - She was a quaker

00:34 - by birth

00:35 - she was from Dublin Ireland.

00:37 - She came over when she was about thirty with a couple of her kids and her husband.

00:42 - Because Philadelphia scene to

00:44 - offer.

00:46 - Great opportunities for the future and so

00:48 - she and her husband were living in the city.

00:51 - For a number of years before the revolution started

00:55 - and they had a shop

00:56 - where they sold tobacco and

00:59 - spirituous liquors

01:01 - there's a club dram shop

01:03 - and they and she also worked as a

01:06 - midwife and as a nurse

01:08 - and

01:09 - her husband worked as a schoolteacher.

01:13 - And what was Philadelphia like during the revolutionary time.

01:19 - Philadelphia was the largest

01:21 - English speaking city in north america

01:25 - in the later

01:26 - nineteenth or eighteenth century

01:28 - and it was

01:29 - the center of culture

01:32 - and political activity in the American.

01:35 - Colonies the American English colonies

01:38 - so it was a very active place

01:41 - probably about thirty five thousand people living in it.

01:45 - And when the British occupied Philadelphia how did the Lydia react.

01:52 - So

01:53 - In seventeen seventy seven

01:55 - the British launched a campaign to take Philadelphia

01:59 - the American capital

02:01 - and hopefully to defeat Washington's army.

02:05 - They were very successful throughout the year.

02:08 - Of

02:09 - The American army suffered a number of defeats and finally

02:12 - the British were able to march into Philadelphia

02:14 - in September of seventeen seventy seven

02:18 - and occupy the city

02:19 - many of the people fled

02:21 - but the quakers many of them stayed just because cause

02:25 - they were neutral they wanted to stay neutral in this conflict

02:29 - they didn't want to be involved in worldly affairs

02:32 - and they certainly didn't want to support war

02:34 - on either side

02:35 - that was a

02:37 - part of their peace testimony that they would stay away from war

02:41 - so when

02:41 - the British occupied the city.

02:45 - I imagine that

02:46 - the dara family were somewhat dismayed to have

02:49 - an army right there

02:51 - and they set up their headquarters directly across the street

02:55 - from the darras shop

02:57 - where they sold.

02:58 - Tobacco and then food and other numbers

03:01 - number of other things

03:02 - and so

03:03 - I'm not quite sure how they he reacted but they certainly had

03:06 - a

03:07 - Very strong British presence right there

03:09 - and the British needed room

03:12 - to manage their army and so they actually took over

03:15 - a room in the darras house I'm not sure that they were

03:19 - were

03:19 - too happy about that and we talked about quakers a few times what was

03:24 - their real impact

03:26 - in the revolutionary war were they purely against it standing out was there a divide.

03:34 - The quakers have.

03:36 - A number of important teachings

03:38 - one of them is

03:40 - a testimony against war and so when the revolution started to come about

03:46 - they didn't want to have anything to do with it

03:48 - they didn't want to support one side or the other

03:50 - and they

03:51 - exhorted their

03:53 - members

03:54 - to stay out of the fray.

03:58 - And Lydia's story begins when she overhears generals talking about military plans how

04:04 - did she find herself in this situation.

04:08 - So because she lived directly across the street from

04:11 - the fancy house that became the British headquarters.

04:14 - The British occupied.

04:17 - Part of her house and they held meetings there

04:19 - and

04:20 - in late.

04:22 - November early December of seventeen seventy seven.

04:26 - The American army was perched on a set of hills

04:28 - about fifteen miles at it's outside the city

04:31 - and they effectively were besieging the city

04:34 - they were preventing supplies from coming in

04:37 - and they were preventing the British army from marching out.

04:41 - So

04:42 - When the.

04:44 - General hal who led the British army

04:47 - decided that

04:48 - he needed to go out and and move them off the hills either

04:52 - to defeat them or to derive them away

04:55 - and he hoped to do that by.

04:57 - Having a

04:58 - the army secretly march out at night and surprise the Americans and hopefully

05:03 - destroy the os army

05:05 - so.

05:06 - People in the city were aware that something was going on because

05:10 - he can't just move an army of ten thousand men

05:13 - without preparing for it

05:14 - and people in the city saw these preparations going one

05:18 - Lydia darragh no doubt was aware that something was in the wind.

05:23 - One night

05:24 - the adjutant general the British army the guy who manages the army's business affairs

05:29 - came to her and said we're going to have a meeting in your house tonight

05:32 - and we want to make sure that you and your family are all in bed

05:36 - before we have this meeting

05:37 - so we don't want it disturbed

05:39 - and when we're done

05:40 - we'll

05:41 - come and knock on your door

05:43 - and a ask you to.

05:45 - Let us out put out the camp

05:46 - bulls lock up the door.

05:48 - So this raised her

05:50 - interest

05:51 - she was very curious what's

05:53 - going to be talked about at this meeting.

05:56 - One thing that you need to know is that she had a son.

06:00 - Who actually joined the American army and he was a lieutenant.

06:04 - In the American army out there on the white marsh hills

06:07 - and so

06:08 - was concerned about what it's going to happen to him

06:11 - and she was also concerned that if there was a major

06:13 - battle.

06:15 - That a lot of people would lose their lives

06:17 - and as a tenderhearted person

06:19 - she was a nurse and midwife.

06:22 - She

06:23 - hated the thought of

06:24 - bloodshed and if there was something that she could do to prevent it

06:27 - she wanted to do that.

06:29 - So.

06:31 - She eavesdropped on the meeting she slipped out of her bed.

06:35 - Made her way to the door of the room and listened in

06:38 - and she heard the orders being read for this secret night march

06:42 - that the British army was going to launch against

06:45 - the Americans in just a day or two's time.

06:50 - Hearing that.

06:51 - She went

06:52 - back to bed

06:53 - and pretended to be asleep and when they knocked on her door to wake her up

06:57 - she acted like she didn't hear them

06:59 - they had to knock three times

07:00 - to get her attention

07:02 - then she got up and let them out

07:04 - and then she spent a very difficult night.

07:07 - Because

07:08 - on the one hand she's not supposed to be involved in these worldly affairs

07:12 - or in military affairs

07:14 - but on the other hand she sees that there's an opportunity

07:17 - to prevent which he called the effusion of blood

07:20 - to stop a lot of bloodshed by preventing

07:23 - a surprise attack.

07:25 - So

07:26 - Through the night

07:27 - she listened internally.

07:29 - For the voice of god

07:31 - as quakers do

07:32 - so that she will understand what was the proper course of action

07:36 - and by morning she had decided that she needed to let the American army know

07:41 - so that they wouldn't be surprised they'd be prepared

07:43 - and maybe there wouldn't be a battle oh

07:45 - and how was the public opinion on Washington and his troops at this time was the

07:50 - public really supportive of their efforts.

07:55 - The American people

07:57 - by and large did support the revolution that they

08:00 - supported detaching themselves from britain because

08:04 - the British just weren't treating people fairly here

08:07 - and they were

08:08 - treading on people's liberties and so

08:11 - many Americans were

08:12 - upset about this

08:14 - they felt it was time

08:15 - for them to sever themselves from the British government

08:19 - they had been used to governing themselves for.

08:22 - Jackets

08:23 - pretty much the courts

08:25 - and the taxation system

08:28 - the militia

08:29 - everything everything that took place they took care of themselves

08:33 - they had their own

08:33 - self governance and so

08:35 - now they were about to make it real

08:37 - there were certainly some people many people who

08:39 - felt that they should retain their loyalty to England

08:43 - then there were a number of people like the

08:44 - quakers who just didn't want any parts of it

08:46 - they wanted to stay out of this

08:48 - mess.

08:50 - And were patriot spies common during this time.

08:56 - George Washington grew into the role of commander in chief of the American army

09:02 - but by the time of seventeen seventy seven he had been

09:04 - at it for two and a half years and he realized that

09:08 - espionage was a useful tool

09:10 - and so he cultivated spies

09:13 - of people who would give him information

09:16 - in the city of Philadelphia

09:18 - in other places

09:19 - and there were a few people who were actually.

09:24 - Had the role

09:25 - of espionage

09:27 - this was not Lydia darras role she came across this accidentally

09:32 - the the British occupied our house and when she realized that

09:36 - something was

09:37 - afoot.

09:39 - She took it on herself

09:40 - to spy on their meeting

09:42 - and then to

09:43 - take a very great personal risk

09:46 - to take action

09:47 - to bring that knowledge out to the Americans

09:49 - so that they could prevent this major battle

09:52 - from taking place.

09:54 - So Lydia finds his key information what's the next step she decides to do.

10:01 - So

10:02 - With the British army occupying the city of

10:04 - Philadelphia and the American army not very far away

10:08 - the population of Philadelphia area

10:11 - had more than doubled

10:13 - and

10:14 - there was a lot of disruption of agriculture as people joined the army

10:18 - as armies marched through fields

10:20 - and destroyed.

10:21 - Food

10:22 - crops

10:23 - so that the other side couldn't get them

10:25 - so people in Philadelphia

10:27 - where are hungry

10:28 - there was not much food coming into the city

10:31 - the Delaware river was blocked

10:34 - by fortifications of the Americans had put there

10:37 - and the British fleet couldn't really bring food up to the city

10:40 - they had to rely on the wh hinterlands Pennsylvania is

10:43 - very

10:44 - rich agricultural hinterlands to bring food in

10:46 - but the Americans were preventing that from happening.

10:49 - So the British would take care of their own they take

10:52 - care of their soldiers and feed them the best they could

10:55 - and the population of the city had to fend for themselves.

10:58 - So Lydia.

11:00 - Decided

11:01 - the that

11:02 - she would say that she was going out

11:05 - to buy flower

11:06 - for her family

11:07 - and she told her husbands

11:09 - that that's what she was going to do she did not tell him

11:13 - that she was going to take

11:14 - information out to the British

11:16 - I'm sorry to the Americans

11:17 - because he probably would have stopped her.

11:21 - So

11:22 - She said listen I need to go out and get some flower

11:25 - I'm gonna take bag with me

11:27 - I'll go out there to Frankfurt the old Swedish mill.

11:30 - It'll take me most of the day to get out there and I'll be back by by sundown

11:35 - and.

11:36 - What could he say

11:37 - off she went.

11:41 - And would there be any consequences to Lydia if

11:44 - her plan was found out.

11:48 - The consequences would be very serious the British did not like being spied on

11:52 - that unlike having their plans

11:54 - given to the enemy

11:56 - so at

11:57 - at a minimum they would have probably imprisoned her and her family but of the

12:03 - penalty for espionage

12:05 - was execution

12:06 - by anger usually

12:08 - now.

12:09 - I don't know that the British ever hung a woman during the American revolution

12:14 - but there could have been a first time

12:16 - so the risk

12:16 - was very real to her

12:18 - and she did not know that they what they would do that quarter.

12:23 - So all this is going through Lydia's mind as

12:26 - she's traversed sane at to find Washington's army.

12:30 - Who does she run entail.

12:33 - Though she went out the frankford not just because there was a mill there

12:37 - where she could

12:38 - plausibly get some flour

12:40 - but she also knew

12:41 - that there was an American patrol their American

12:44 - cavalry patrol under a man that she knew

12:47 - captain Charles cray of the second continental light dragoons ns

12:53 - and he was out there with a small group of men

12:55 - and they would.

12:57 - Ride around in the

12:58 - in the Frankfurt area to try to keep tabs

13:01 - on what the British were doing

13:03 - so she knew that by going out there if she

13:06 - left the mill

13:07 - and wandered around a little bit

13:09 - pretty soon she would probably come across

13:11 - some Americans and she could.

13:13 - Communicate with the Charles Craig about what she knew.

13:19 - And how did he react to the news.

13:24 - When she saw him

13:25 - he said to her.

13:27 - Masses dara what are you doing out here.

13:30 - This is

13:30 - pretty far from home

13:32 - and

13:33 - and she said well.

13:35 - Could you dismount

13:36 - and walk with me for a moment.

13:39 - So he got off his horse and the two of them walked

13:41 - aside from his tour groups

13:43 - and she conveyed to him

13:46 - her message

13:47 - the secret that she had learned

13:49 - about

13:50 - who was coming when they were coming and how many troops were coming

13:54 - and

13:55 - he took that very seriously he thanked her

13:57 - and rode off to headquarters

14:00 - to warn the Americans with the British

14:02 - are on their way.

14:05 - But then she went and

14:07 - back to the mill.

14:08 - Picked up her bag

14:10 - twenty eight pounds of flour

14:12 - and marched.

14:14 - Five to six miles back to her house

14:17 - on a cold wintery afternoon

14:20 - with this heavy load

14:22 - to try to make it clear to anybody was watching

14:25 - that she was just an an innocent mission.

14:29 - So Lydia

14:30 - has succeeded in her mission she comes back home

14:34 - how is life

14:35 - like when her when she gets back she has to act like nothing happened.

14:41 - Exactly and so she couldn't tell anybody her secret for fear it would get out

14:45 - she didn't even tell her husband her husband was a

14:48 - known to be a bit of a talkative man so she was very carefully conceal this

14:52 - from him

14:53 - from her family

14:54 - from her neighbors from everybody

14:56 - and have

14:57 - about

14:58 - four days later the British army marched back into town

15:02 - then

15:02 - the headquarters staff marched right back

15:05 - for the house across the street

15:07 - possibly they were

15:08 - meeting in her room again

15:10 - and she just kept her mouth shut she didn't want to

15:12 - reveal anything

15:14 - but.

15:16 - The British felt that somehow the word had gotten out.

15:19 - Somehow

15:21 - the Americans were aware of their plan and were ready for them

15:24 - and they wanted to know why.

15:27 - So the adjutant general came to her one evening

15:31 - and said mrs dara I'd like to speak with you open

15:34 - up the room where we meet and she went up there with him

15:38 - and he asked her some questions.

15:40 - He wanted to know was anybody

15:43 - in your family awake

15:45 - while we were having this meeting

15:47 - and she said

15:48 - will know I put everybody to bed by eight o'clock

15:51 - and they said well I know you are asleep because

15:53 - we had to knock three times to wake you up

15:56 - and she didn't say anything

15:58 - and he said well I just don't see

16:00 - how the Americans could have gotten word of what we were doing.

16:04 - Unless the walls had ears.

16:07 - She just.

16:08 - Led him to Roy's own conclusions

16:10 - and didn't say anything and.

16:12 - He walked

16:13 - he walked out

16:15 - laughter and they never did find out what she did

16:18 - they were in the city for ten months and it probably wasn't until they

16:22 - left in June of seventeen seventy eight

16:25 - that she felt comfortable even tell eyeing her husband what had happened.

16:30 - And then Lydia leave a journal or any writings of her story how did this

16:35 - event

16:36 - become publicized.

16:40 - We have.

16:41 - Two.

16:43 - Signatures by Lydia darragh forwards Lydia darragh twice

16:47 - that's it.

16:48 - She left

16:49 - no written record

16:50 - of any kind.

16:53 - Even though

16:54 - the quakers were graded

16:55 - a riveting diaries and journals

16:57 - she never did if she did

16:59 - anything that she wrote was lost

17:01 - but she told her story to her family and to her friends.

17:05 - She told them what had happened that night

17:07 - and what had happened

17:09 - the next day

17:10 - and what the outcome was

17:12 - and

17:12 - she he was a very

17:14 - intelligent and educated woman

17:16 - and a bit of a rock and tour she liked to talk to people

17:20 - and she.

17:23 - Crafted

17:24 - are really a well knitted story

17:27 - it it

17:28 - it makes good sense

17:30 - the way that she told she was very artful and the way she told it

17:33 - and that way people could remember it

17:35 - that made an impression on people

17:37 - and some people did remember it and even after her passing

17:40 - and seventeen eighty nine

17:42 - people in Philadelphia villa

17:43 - especially quakers

17:44 - continued to tell this story

17:46 - now and your buck Lydia's tales

17:49 - you mention that there's two versions of Lydia would you like to go in about that.

17:54 - Well

17:55 - I really am talking about the difference between Lydia

17:58 - the woman that nobody really knows very much about

18:02 - and Lydia's tale Lydia's story

18:04 - which people did know

18:06 - so I wanted to write about both things both about

18:09 - who Lydia darragh really was if we could find out

18:12 - and.

18:14 - What happened with her story how did he grow out of it change

18:17 - had it morphed over the years to become

18:20 - a popular piece of American mythology

18:23 - so I wrote about both things.

18:27 - And how do you properly explain historical events when they were so long ago and

18:32 - there's not pure writing on them.

18:36 - So in understanding her Lydia darragh was I had to consult numerous

18:41 - little

18:42 - historical records

18:44 - and there would be a little piece of information

18:46 - here a little piece of information there

18:49 - and I saw these things out.

18:51 - Over a period of about six years

18:54 - and knitted them together

18:56 - to get an idea of who she was who were finally was

18:59 - what her middle you is like what her neighbors and her friends were like

19:03 - and what it was like for her to live in Philadelphia at that time.

19:10 - Were there any major differences in betweens one

19:13 - person's retelling of the story versus another.

19:17 - So.

19:19 - When

19:20 - the public learned about Lydia

19:22 - tail it was fifty years after the event

19:25 - it wasn't until eighteen twenty seven

19:28 - that someone actually published her story

19:31 - a man named

19:32 - Robert Walsh.

19:34 - He got the story.

19:37 - From.

19:39 - The mother of a friend of his.

19:41 - A woman named Hannah Haines

19:44 - and he happened to be at their house in here and heard them talking about

19:48 - what Lydia dara had done during the revolution

19:51 - and he thought well this is a great story I've got to get this

19:54 - and so he asked her to write it down for him

19:56 - and she did and he took and published it.

19:59 - Up to that point nobody except

20:01 - some folks in Philadelphia ap.

20:04 - Excuse me we're aware

20:05 - that this had taken place.

20:09 - Other people had heard the story from

20:11 - Hannah Haines as well John.

20:14 - Watson John fanning Watson being one of them and he wrote about it just

20:18 - two years later

20:19 - and so within

20:20 - a couple of years

20:21 - there were several publications

20:23 - that just told Lydia's story as it was.

20:28 - A long time passes

20:30 - people know the story people talk about it

20:32 - people

20:33 - do you

20:34 - teach their children about it.

20:37 - But in the eighteen nineties

20:40 - another historian whose name was Derrick

20:42 - Henry Derrick very much like dara

20:45 - was interested in her story

20:47 - probably because of the similarity of their names

20:49 - and he decided to a little research and he

20:52 - tracked down

20:53 - her descendants

20:54 - and he

20:55 - got the story from them

20:57 - what they told that they continued to tell

21:00 - and it was very very close to the story that

21:02 - Lydia darragh told but there were some differences

21:06 - and.

21:07 - It's a little difficult to know whether she went out

21:10 - for flour as the Hannah Haines version tells us

21:14 - or whether she told the people

21:16 - at the gates that she was going out

21:18 - to visit her children

21:19 - because he had young children who were staying outside the city

21:23 - to stay out of harm's way and so we don't really know for sure

21:26 - which those things was true.

21:30 - And when did you first learn about Lydia and her story.

21:36 - Because I grew up

21:38 - and live on the site of the battle of edge hill which was

21:43 - which took place on December seventh seventeen seventy seven

21:46 - always been interested in that and

21:48 - over the years I've done a lot of research

21:51 - on it

21:52 - and one of the things that I heard early on

21:54 - was as Lydia's tailed the original version of Lydia's story that she

21:59 - warned the

22:00 - Americans so that the British army could not surprise them

22:04 - and I asked myself well.

22:06 - Interesting story as a trope

22:08 - and I

22:10 - started to dig into it and I I've just got more and more interested

22:14 - in.

22:15 - In finding the original roots of the story which took some doing

22:19 - and and and then

22:21 - trying to verify

22:22 - what she said was was she said true could that really have happened

22:26 - as it turns out almost everything

22:28 - that she talked about

22:30 - his verifiable even though there are not a lot of corroborating

22:34 - records that exist today

22:36 - but you can easily tell

22:38 - that this this is real stuff

22:40 - nobody knew about Charles Craig the man that she gave the information to

22:45 - he had died.

22:47 - Just a couple of years afterward

22:49 - and

22:50 - people did not

22:51 - really know his name

22:53 - they knew his brother's name they thought maybe

22:55 - it was his brother that she told the the the

22:58 - the secret to.

23:01 - So

23:02 - Just the fact that she he said it was.

23:06 - Captain.

23:07 - Craig

23:08 - gave

23:09 - a clue there

23:11 - that that she was telling the truth cause nobody else really knew that the sky was

23:14 - out there around Frankfurt at the time.

23:18 - And after all your research what's your major takeaways from this moment of history.

23:25 - What

23:26 - dara was an interesting person who is a for

23:29 - civil.

23:30 - Although she didn't leave

23:32 - any writing

23:33 - about herself.

23:34 - She was well off enough that there were enough records about her

23:38 - that you could learn

23:40 - something about her background

23:41 - and the fact that she was a quaker was a big help

23:44 - because the quakers kept very careful records

23:46 - much more careful than almost anybody else

23:49 - at the time

23:50 - very detailed records and so

23:52 - there was a lot of little bits of information where we could learn things about her.

23:58 - So I just

23:59 - do

24:00 - Got more and more interested in what kind of a person she was

24:03 - she was a nurse who was a midwife she was a shopkeeper

24:06 - she was a very faithful quaker

24:09 - and she was a patriot

24:11 - of gradually.

24:13 - As

24:13 - The revolution started to take place she and her family.

24:17 - Came down on the side of

24:20 - the image Oregon cause

24:21 - and they decided that they would support that

24:24 - even at risk to themselves

24:26 - and the even at risk to their

24:29 - place

24:30 - and standing in the quaker community

24:32 - and

24:33 - Lydia

24:34 - and her

24:35 - one daughter and one of her sons were all disowned

24:38 - by the quakers

24:39 - and the

24:40 - the the sun because of his involvement with the army

24:43 - the daughter because she married at a meeting and liddy herself.

24:48 - Ostensibly because.

24:51 - She

24:51 - was not attending the quaker meetings as she should

24:55 - but the the friends the quakers knew that she was actually.

25:00 - Attending meetings of a breakaway quaker group.

25:03 - That breakaway quaker group known as the freak quakers.

25:07 - Got together because so many people had been.

25:12 - Read out of meeting.

25:14 - Because of their support for the revolution

25:16 - and they founded their own version of quakerism

25:18 - when the main quaker meeting got wind of this

25:22 - they and they.

25:24 - Basically.

25:26 - Read her out of the meeting.

25:29 - We've been speaking with Robert finale

25:31 - author of Lydia's tale the mystery of Lydia darragh Irish quaker patriot spy

25:37 - thank you for your time.

25:39 - Thank you.

25:45 - I.