00:00 - The following program is sponsored in part by customers

00:04 - bank.

00:13 - We're joined today

00:14 - by David Thornburgh, chair of ballot PA Action Spotlight.

00:19 - PA reports that Pennsylvania is one of eight states with a closed primary.

00:22 - Why is that?

00:26 - Well, thanks for the chance to be with you, Alan.

00:29 - That's a good question.

00:30 - It's always good to start with first principles.

00:32 - This goes back to a law that was passed in 1937 to reform,

00:38 - and change Pennsylvania's

00:41 - election process and election code.

00:44 - And if you go back to the time there was really no mention

00:47 - of independent voters, it kind of wasn't a thing.

00:51 - But, there was only about 3% of the electorate at the time.

00:55 - But for a variety of other reasons, the,

00:59 - independents were forbidden from voting in primary elections.

01:02 - Fast forward.

01:03 - Let's see, 89 years

01:08 - to where we are now,

01:09 - there's 1.4 million,

01:12 - independent voters who, I'll say inadvertently,

01:16 - were left out of the process.

01:18 - And we've suffered the consequences, which I think are unfortunate.

01:22 - And, and, disturbing.

01:25 - So, this is a first roll of history.

01:28 - You never know exactly how things are going to play out.

01:31 - Have states with closed primaries repealed that law to become open?

01:36 - Well, interesting.

01:37 - So this is a state by state process, right.

01:39 - That's how we do voting.

01:41 - And in America and right now, Pennsylvania is one of only nine states

01:47 - that still strictly excludes independent voters from those elections.

01:52 - Most states, if you go to Massachusetts or Virginia or Ohio

01:57 - or lots of other states, independents have been part of the process for decades.

02:04 - Even in recent years, though,

02:06 - Maine and New Mexico,

02:09 - and Colorado and the District of Columbia, just in the last

02:13 - five years have opened up their primary process to independents.

02:18 - So we're lagging here.

02:19 - We're behind in my goals.

02:22 - Part of this effort is to make sure that Pennsylvania is not the last state

02:26 - that opens its primary elections to independents.

02:30 - What does the process look like to opening the state up for a primary?

02:35 - Well, you know, you remember schoolhouse Rock, right?

02:38 - Everybody remembers that.

02:39 - How does a bill, become law?

02:42 - It just simply takes a bill in the,

02:46 - Pennsylvania legislature that both the House and Senate pass.

02:49 - And then they send to the governor's desk, and and,

02:54 - there's lots of different options for including independents.

02:59 - There's been one primary option under discussion, so to speak,

03:03 - for the last several decades, but it's very doable.

03:07 - If there's a will, there's a way.

03:11 - I will note that, a bill to open primaries to allow independents

03:16 - to participate has been considered in the legislature since 1996.

03:22 - So a mere 30 years ago, interestingly,

03:26 - then House member Lisa Bass Cola, now state Senator Lisa Bass.

03:31 - Cola was the sponsor of that legislation and remains

03:35 - committed, to, to getting that done.

03:38 - So it's a it's a long, slow uphill,

03:43 - but we're making good headway.

03:45 - And, I think we're going to get there.

03:49 - Is there a benefit to open primaries?

03:52 - Yeah, it really breaks down there.

03:55 - There are two main benefits.

03:56 - One, it's it's fairness.

03:59 - Everyone pays for elections.

04:01 - If you pay for an election.

04:03 - And it's about $75 million a year to pay for primaries,

04:07 - if you pay for that process, you should be included.

04:10 - I mean, that's just fairness,

04:14 - particularly when you understand who's being left out.

04:17 - It becomes even more urgent.

04:20 - Close to two thirds of young voters are now registering as independents.

04:24 - Do we really want to shut our young folks out of the process

04:28 - that they're going to inherit?

04:30 - Almost.

04:32 - Actually, more than 50% of veterans are independents.

04:37 - Former Steeler great Rocky Bleier is a prominent endorser

04:42 - of open primaries and as a as a Pittsburgh and a Steeler fan.

04:46 - That means a lot.

04:47 - Why should we be locking out independents

04:51 - who swore an oath to our Constitution and our country?

04:54 - Why should we be locking them out of these elections if they don't,

04:59 - choose to register in a political party?

05:02 - So that's the fairness piece.

05:04 - The other thing is, you know,

05:06 - democracy works best when lots of people participate.

05:11 - And if we open the primaries,

05:13 - which suffer from chronically low turnout, I mean, I'm talking

05:18 - sometimes single digit turnout,

05:21 - but more often, maybe 15%, 20%, tops.

05:25 - If we open that process to more voters

05:29 - and the different kind of voters, voters who won't.

05:31 - I'm so rabidly Partizan.

05:34 - We're going to get, we're going to elect people who are more ready to govern.

05:40 - That's plain and simple. That's just math.

05:43 - And that to me, is is that's the way that democracy, how to work.

05:47 - And if we ever stop believing that, that

05:50 - more people participating is a good thing, we're in we're in big trouble.

05:54 - So fairness and designing a process where people are elected

06:00 - who are ready to govern.

06:02 - Are there any specific races that registered independents are allowed to vote in?

06:08 - Well, not races so much, but

06:11 - local ballot issues or state ballot issues?

06:17 - That haven't been said.

06:19 - If you look at the turnout for people, for independents and primaries,

06:24 - even when there's one of those,

06:26 - you know, ballot issues, on, on the

06:30 - that they can vote for, it's very low because one unfortunate

06:35 - part of this process is candidates running for office

06:40 - don't reach out to independent voters, because guess what?

06:46 - They don't matter. They can't vote.

06:48 - And here's the kicker a lot of folks don't realize this.

06:53 - If you look at, say, our state

06:55 - legislature does the House and Senate,

06:58 - brace yourself, 90% of those elections are effectively decided

07:03 - in the primaries, 90%, nine out of ten.

07:08 - That's because of the way the districts are drawn

07:12 - to to pack one party into one district and not another.

07:16 - And it's a way, honestly, that people sort themselves.

07:19 - But the consequence of that is that if you can't vote

07:23 - in a primary, there's 1.4 million voters.

07:27 - Your vote honestly doesn't matter.

07:30 - You show up in November and you're voting for a foregone conclusion.

07:35 - So that to me is is a is troubling right there.

07:39 - And that ought to be part of the it is part of the case

07:42 - that we're making as to why this would make a lot of sense.

07:46 - Can you talk a little bit about what ballot action is and the work that you do?

07:51 - Sure.

07:52 - About Peer Action is a nonprofit organization,

07:55 - that, works with a coalition of groups.

07:59 - The Committee of 70, which I used to run in Philadelphia,

08:03 - the League of Women Voters, business groups and civic groups

08:07 - from around the country to help organize, this effort.

08:12 - Another piece of this,

08:14 - that we've been, very involved in is, we filed suit

08:19 - in Commonwealth court in Pennsylvania in December,

08:23 - challenging the constitutional basis of closed primaries.

08:27 - We've said, look, Pennsylvania has a clause in our Constitution.

08:32 - We've had it since day one that says all elections shall be free and equal.

08:38 - And that's been interpreted to mean that the that the state can't favor

08:43 - one class of voters over another class.

08:47 - So our contention and this is right in front of the

08:49 - of the court right now, our contention is that in in shutting out

08:55 - independent voters from primary elections, you're favoring.

09:01 - Republican and Democratic

09:02 - voters and this favoring independent voters.

09:06 - And we believe that's unconstitutional.

09:09 - So this is a major, major step forward.

09:12 - It's never been challenged in court before.

09:15 - But we think we have a strong argument and we look forward to,

09:19 - making that argument in all the nooks and crannies

09:23 - of the judicial process in the coming months.

09:26 - Lastly, how much would an open primary change.

09:29 - Pennsylvania's voting system?

09:33 - Well, that's a that's a good question.

09:35 - It's a it's a little hard to predict because,

09:38 - don't really know.

09:42 - I just guarantee that, turnout

09:45 - would increase in the primary elections.

09:49 - Some folks have said maybe by 10%.

09:52 - But, look, any additional voter

09:55 - voting in in those elections is worthwhile.

09:58 - So, and then I really do believe the reason

10:02 - I've been active in this issue for the last 8 or 10 years now,

10:08 - I do believe if if we broaden

10:10 - the base of people voting in those elections,

10:14 - we're going to guarantee

10:16 - that we're going to have less Partizan candidates.

10:21 - And I think a lot of folks out there are troubled by how.

10:24 - Partizan, our, our, process is these days

10:29 - get less.

10:30 - Partizan folks elected to state legislatures, county

10:34 - commissions, borough council, city councils.

10:39 - And and they're going to be better

10:41 - positioned to govern and and more,

10:45 - ready to listen to a broader, cross-section of voters.

10:49 - And that's, that's a good thing.

10:50 - That's Pennsylvania, it seems to me.

10:53 - David Thornburgh, chair of ballot PA action.

10:56 - Thank you for your time. Thanks so much, Allen.