00:00 - Or to all of us as a time when we see, at a time when we see

00:03 - our electricity costs increasing exponentially and the need for base load

00:09 - production increasing as well. So.

00:11 - All right.

00:11 - Thank you. We'll get to it.

00:13 - Thank the gentleman.

00:15 - Commissioners, would you please stand

00:18 - so I could swear everybody in before we get started?

00:22 - Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give is the truth?

00:25 - The whole truth so help you God? I do.

00:28 - You may be seated in the middle of the table is our time clock.

00:32 - It will turn green when our members are ready to start with their questions.

00:36 - They will have five minutes to ask questions.

00:38 - At yellow, that means that there's 30s left.

00:41 - And we actually should begin to wrap up your comments in that red.

00:45 - That means their time has expired.

00:46 - And therefore we ask you to conclude your comments.

00:55 - Chairman. Dr.

00:55 - Frank, you can proceed with your opening statement.

01:00 - It's on. Oh,

01:02 - thank you, Chairman.

01:04 - Mr. Rusi, members of the House Appropriations.

01:07 - Committee, it's a pleasure to be here today to discuss our budget.

01:10 - My name is Steve de Frank.

01:11 - I'm the chairman of the Pennsylvania Public Utility Commission.

01:14 - And as core mission, straightforward work to ensure

01:18 - essential utility services are provided or provided to Pennsylvanians

01:22 - on a safe, reliable and affordable basis.

01:27 - And when we say essential, we mean the services.

01:29 - The power of daily life from electricity,

01:31 - natural gas, water, waste water and telecommunications,

01:35 - the systems that supports our homes and businesses,

01:38 - manufacturers and hospitals across the Commonwealth.

01:42 - The Commission regulates over 8400 entities across those sectors,

01:46 - but we also have some other important public

01:50 - safety responsibilities that you may not be aware of.

01:53 - And that would include pipeline safety oversight related

01:56 - to rail crossings and transportation for higher services.

02:00 - And that would include transportation of goods or people.

02:03 - So moving companies, delivery companies,

02:07 - as well as our taxis and Ubers and Lyfts,

02:12 - for fiscal year 202627,

02:15 - the commission is requesting 104.78 million.

02:19 - That includes 5.38 million in federal funds that support our pipeline

02:25 - safety, rail safety and motor carrier safety activities.

02:30 - The state share of this is 98.102 million.

02:35 - And that's an important point.

02:36 - As Chair Trudy pointed out,

02:39 - we are not funded from the state's general fund.

02:42 - We are funded through assessments on regulated entities.

02:46 - This request represents a 2.18% increase in our budget,

02:52 - primarily driven by, contractual

02:55 - salary and benefit obligations, as well as managing our current,

02:59 - program load and with that, I'm happy to answer any questions members may have.

03:05 - Thank you.

03:05 - Gentlemen, we'll start with Representative Currie.

03:12 - Thank you, chairman.

03:13 - And hello, everyone.

03:15 - Thank you for being here today.

03:18 - I want to start off with an affordability question.

03:21 - In 2025, electric, gas and water utilities

03:26 - terminated service to a record 415,000 households.

03:30 - In fact, we have hit record terminations each year since 2023.

03:36 - How does the Commission intend to reverse this troubling trend?

03:40 - So this is a troubling trend

03:42 - when we talk about our assistance programs.

03:46 - This year

03:47 - was the highest year ever for first time assistance, and that's into

03:51 - our Lihe programs as well as our customer assistance programs.

03:55 - So as I always talk about, we're seeing this issue climb higher

03:59 - and higher up a socioeconomic ladder, families

04:02 - that may not have had, in addition to the folks that have always struggled

04:06 - paying utility bills, families that may not have had an issue

04:09 - ten years ago were finding themselves having an issue today.

04:12 - So one of the things we've done is trying to match those available dollars,

04:17 - you know, make sure dollars are available through our customer assistance programs

04:21 - and then match them with customers that are available

04:24 - that that they're available to that qualify for them.

04:27 - One of the first things that representatives or representative,

04:33 - you got a promotion, you got.

04:36 - Commission of service.

04:37 - And I did whenever I first, whenever we first came to the commission

04:41 - was we did see motion on trying to find ways of

04:45 - increasing our, participation in our customer assistance programs.

04:50 - And one of that is with data sharing, in addition

04:53 - to the lihe data sharing we started last year with DHS.

04:58 - We're starting to data share amongst our utilities.

05:01 - We weren't able to come up with the uniform application.

05:04 - That was what our goal was.

05:06 - We weren't able to do that,

05:07 - but what we were able to do was come up with like data points.

05:11 - So every application for customer assistance

05:14 - in Pennsylvania today has 12 to 15 points

05:17 - that are on every everyone's application, that key, those key data points.

05:22 - Then we can share with other utilities.

05:24 - Because the reality is if you're eligible for customers assistance program

05:28 - in in, you know, you're electric for your electric company, you're likely

05:32 - eligible for one with your natural gas provider or your water provider.

05:36 - Thank you for that. Thank you for that information.

05:38 - I just have to get one more question.

05:39 - So I just, there are about 1.1 million small businesses in the Commonwealth,

05:44 - and they continue to struggle with affordability and rising energy cost.

05:48 - What analysis has the piece you see conducted to understand the cumulative

05:53 - impact of recent utility rate cases on small businesses across Pennsylvania?

05:59 - And also another question is, how does the commission evaluate

06:03 - whether proposed rate increases will place an undue burden on small

06:07 - commercial customers compared to residential or large industrial users?

06:12 - Sure.

06:13 - So I'll I'll answer the first part

06:14 - on the 1.1, million small businesses as you know.

06:18 - So wage rate case works is has two phases to it.

06:22 - How big the revenue requirement is for the utility.

06:26 - That's that's the number that's required.

06:28 - And then how we cut that up amongst our various rate classes, as you know,

06:32 - we do have a statutory advocate for small businesses in Pennsylvania.

06:36 - We're one of the

06:37 - only states in the country that has an advocate for small businesses.

06:41 - And that's our, small business advocate, Nasira.

06:44 - Sabri, who's doing a great job, by the way, doing an excellent job.

06:47 - Yes. So we have her advocacy there as she enters

06:51 - great cases on behalf of our small businesses. So,

06:56 - the revenue

06:57 - requirement comes out where her role then comes in in a rate

07:01 - case is making sure small businesses aren't getting an over.

07:06 - A big piece of that pie that they're they're getting their fair share.

07:10 - So that's her statutory role.

07:12 - That's what she does.

07:12 - And then whenever we if it's a settlement for her

07:16 - ends up in a settlement, she would then sign that settlement.

07:19 - If it's fully litigated,

07:20 - she would go through the litigation and take it out to fruition.

07:24 - So that's the small businesses representation in these rate cases.

07:28 - Additionally, and if I may, you know, I don't want to take up all your time, but

07:33 - no, no, no, I'm good. From here. You can answer. Okay.

07:36 - So we do have,

07:38 - you know, the House Energy Committee held a hearing on Monday on net metering

07:43 - and some of the issues there that's following all of the small business class.

07:46 - So, the advocate is aware of that.

07:48 - She's been engaging with that.

07:50 - We've had several, meetings, conversations about that to make sure

07:54 - all those cost points aren't put on our small businesses.

07:58 - I really appreciate that, and I look forward to working with

08:01 - this small business advocate and you all to continue to help our,

08:05 - you know, our constituents get what they need.

08:07 - Thank you so much.

08:09 - Thank the gentle lady, Representative Kale.

08:12 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

08:14 - Thank you, Mr.

08:14 - Chairman, for being here today.

08:17 - Over the course of the last couple of weeks, we've been having these hearings

08:21 - and energy policy and Pennsylvania energy in general has come up a number of times.

08:27 - And I want to ask you a couple of questions.

08:29 - And and we've heard good news about what's going on in Pennsylvania,

08:33 - and we've heard bad news.

08:34 - The good news, of course, is that Pennsylvania has a abundance of energy.

08:38 - Our natural gas, our coal resources, our nuclear plants are well run,

08:44 - facilities.

08:45 - We have the answers to a lot of today's problems.

08:49 - And another good thing, I think, that has come out

08:51 - of these discussions is there is a growing consensus

08:55 - that in order to meet the affordability demands that we are talking about,

08:59 - in order to meet the reliability demands that we are talking about.

09:03 - There is a common, consistent issue that needs to be addressed,

09:08 - and that issue is generation of base load energy.

09:12 - And it's convenient for us Pennsylvanians to have that is the issue

09:16 - because we have so much of the raw natural resources of base load energy.

09:20 - We have coal, we have natural gas.

09:23 - So we can create essentially a win win.

09:25 - We could help our workers,

09:27 - we can generate better electricity, we can have reliability.

09:31 - But then there's the bad news.

09:33 - And the bad news is, and I believe you have already conceded

09:36 - this as well in the hearings in the Senate,

09:38 - is that we are facing a crisis, a potential crisis.

09:42 - We're talking about brownouts, blackouts.

09:45 - You already heard it earlier today.

09:47 - We talked about affordability issues, the skyrocketing cost

09:50 - of electricity in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania,

09:54 - the energy capital of the United States.

09:57 - I would argue we are facing these issues.

10:01 - So I want to ask you a series of questions about how we can solve these issues.

10:07 - And I want to ask you about some of the plans

10:09 - that are floating out there today.

10:11 - The first question is, would a carbon tax,

10:15 - would a carbon tax on electricity producers

10:19 - incentivize facilitate more base load energy

10:23 - production or less?

10:26 - So I think you're talking about the government space program.

10:28 - I'm just talking about a carbon tax generally.

10:30 - So if we could keep answers short, I'd appreciate it.

10:33 - We really don't deal with that. We are an economic regulator.

10:36 - We're not an environmental regulator.

10:37 - So all that would fall upon the EPA.

10:39 - So so putting a tax on

10:42 - electrical consumer or electrical producers using coal

10:46 - and gas, you're saying you can't answer whether or not that's going to.

10:49 - So I think I think what you're referring to is if the program

10:52 - you're referring to is what I thought it was when we talked about Reggie.

10:56 - The Senate did ask us to do a cost analysis on Reggie.

11:00 - We do not have the capabilities of doing that.

11:02 - We reached out to the CFO and asked if we can serve

11:05 - as a technical advisor to them and see if they could do a price model on it.

11:09 - They came back and they were not able to do a price model

11:11 - without investment, a major investment in software.

11:14 - So I don't know what the cost is.

11:16 - What Senator y'all then did was he sent it to PJM,

11:20 - and PJM did do a cost impact on it on the out years.

11:24 - We can probably get that for you.

11:25 - Now, that was on Reggie, though,

11:26 - which is similar to a cap and trade program, which is similar to Pacer.

11:30 - And just so we're clear, since 2019 when we were flirting with Reggie,

11:33 - thankfully we're out of it now.

11:35 - We're not flirting with it anymore.

11:37 - But when we were there were zero, exactly zero new announcements of base load energy

11:43 - facilities coming to Pennsylvania, to the grid, to the grid.

11:47 - Zero.

11:47 - And second question, would expanding the alternative energy portfolio

11:52 - incentivize or facilitate more base load energy production

11:56 - in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, or less in particular, tier one

12:01 - solar panels and windmills going from 8% to 35%?

12:06 - So on your first question, we would like to get back to you on that.

12:09 - I do believe there was base load gas built in York County

12:12 - while the state was considering rising, so it wasn't announced while we were in.

12:16 - Reggie.

12:17 - The project started before Reggie was announced.

12:20 - It was not announced after.

12:22 - Okay.

12:22 - Going into it or flirting with it and I'm not.

12:24 - I knew it was around that same time.

12:26 - Regarding APS, will it result in increased base load generation?

12:31 - I would say yes because it's, you know, RF yes, we go beyond a renewable standard.

12:36 - We have carbon in wraps up.

12:39 - I asked about tier one in particular the mandate from going from

12:42 - 8% to 35% for wind and solar.

12:46 - Is that base load energy?

12:48 - I do not believe it is.

12:49 - Now that's not base load energy.

12:51 - This lightning plan is going to be a lightning bolt to our grid,

12:55 - and we're playing politics with with people's light switches.

12:59 - And ultimately, what happens when there's brownout and blackouts

13:02 - isn't just prices go up, people die because of brownouts and blackouts.

13:06 - And that's what we're heading towards.

13:09 - And we have issues with PJM

13:10 - because of the same policies in new Jersey and Maryland.

13:14 - And now our answer is to do the same exact thing.

13:18 - It's unacceptable that this is the energy policy of this administration.

13:21 - Thank you.

13:22 - Thank you, gentlemen.

13:23 - Representative Kincaid,

13:26 - thank you, Mr.

13:26 - Chairman.

13:29 - What is the most significant way that the PUC can improve

13:33 - accessibility and transparency of its processes for consumers?

13:37 - That are not represented by attorneys?

13:43 - Right.

13:44 - I used to that.

13:45 - Keep trying to turn on my microphone and the always on it

13:49 - doesn't it's not sinking in yet. So I apologize for that.

13:51 - No worries.

13:52 - So so your question, the the way we can increase,

13:57 - accessibility and transparency for the PUC processes, for those who

14:02 - so are we talk about consumer complaint, represent consumer complaint cases.

14:05 - Yeah. Yes.

14:06 - So you know, we do have we do

14:09 - have we do allow process complaints.

14:12 - So a consumer complaint case, they do not have to have a lawyer.

14:15 - They are allowed to represent themselves.

14:17 - One of the things that Commissioner Surface did was, ease

14:20 - the intake process of those, working on our intake form.

14:24 - Doing a fill able form.

14:26 - And I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about that, Commissioner.

14:29 - Yeah.

14:29 - I mean, you you teed up very nicely, Mr. Chairman.

14:32 - The whole point was to, make the process easier for process complaints.

14:37 - Right?

14:37 - So whether you're

14:39 - going to be filing a formal complaint or trying to understand the process,

14:43 - the process should be easy to understand, intuitive and accessible, right.

14:50 - So like

14:51 - we undertook internally in kind of like an operational efficiency

14:54 - kind of look at how we do those things, with the consumer in mind,

14:58 - you know, we also provide additional materials in other languages.

15:02 - You know, that was part of that, you know, modernization,

15:05 - I'll call it, of our other materials.

15:07 - And, so that that's part of that, that process.

15:12 - Do you want to.

15:15 - Okay.

15:15 - In addition to that, though, we do have a pending rule making,

15:19 - which seeks to modernize our

15:22 - internal administrative like procedures and processes.

15:25 - I'll call it we call it internally the like the one, two, three, five chapters.

15:29 - It's, Excuse me.

15:31 - It's, it explores some of these issues that you brought up,

15:35 - whether it's attorney representation for individuals, for small businesses,

15:40 - and how some of these other, processes work.

15:43 - For those who may not be as, you know, in tune

15:46 - to the sophistication of a legal or some, quasi judicial process.

15:51 - So that is a pending issue.

15:53 - We did put it out for comment.

15:54 - We're going through those comments

15:55 - and seeing how we can modernize some of those internal rules.

15:58 - Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

16:01 - Thank the gentle lady, Representative Brown.

16:05 - Chairman, I'm glad that you're all here.

16:07 - Because the one of the primary questions I'm receiving from my constituents

16:12 - right now is about their increasing electric costs.

16:17 - My own mother has an astronomical bill

16:20 - that she can't afford, and I'm trying to help her navigate that.

16:23 - So I don't feel like I have good answers for them.

16:27 - I'm interested as to what your answer is as to

16:30 - why the rates are so astronomical.

16:35 - So if we're talking about electricity,

16:37 - I think a lot of that is driven through wholesale market increases.

16:41 - Our wholesale market, we are a restructured state, which means.

16:44 - PJM utilities do not own generation Pennsylvania.

16:49 - We go to the PJM marketplace to secure a power.

16:53 - So, you know, you can get as a customer.

16:56 - You can either have a retail supplier

16:57 - or you can get supply through your default service for your utility.

17:01 - That's all purchased to PJM.

17:03 - So those increases have resulted in capacity auction increases

17:08 - from large loads, increase load forecast coming on our load forecast

17:13 - was pretty stagnant, 1 to 2% per year.

17:16 - We're seeing a large load increase mostly driven by data centers.

17:21 - So that's driving the increase on the capacity side.

17:24 - But the other side is

17:24 - we're just seeing an increase in the cost of energy, cost of power.

17:28 - One of the things I was talking to Chairman Strus earlier, Chairman Strus ten

17:34 - years ago talked about all of us putting putting all of our eggs in one basket.

17:38 - We're over 50% generation in PJM with natural gas.

17:42 - So when we see gas prices spike,

17:44 - electric prices follow because we're tying the commodities together.

17:47 - I know, but you're you're, agency is tasked with regulating that.

17:52 - Correct?

17:53 - We are not we don't regulate generation.

17:55 - We are restructured market.

17:58 - So so the

17:58 - regulator of that would be Ferc, those that's federally regulated.

18:02 - So you can do nothing to control pricing through advocacy.

18:06 - We can control pricing, Ferc filings.

18:09 - We've been active on those and through an organization called obviously,

18:12 - but all of our all of our input is through simply advocacy.

18:16 - We do not regulate them.

18:19 - Well, then we need more advocacy, because I can tell you

18:22 - that the seniors in my market, that can't afford

18:25 - their heat, won't understand that explanation.

18:29 - It's very frustrating.

18:30 - I also have concerns, just like many residential and commercial ratepayers

18:34 - across the Commonwealth, about the reliability

18:37 - and security of the electrical grid and ensuring the affordability.

18:42 - And you just brought up data centers,

18:47 - You know, the energy being produced to protect us.

18:51 - We are at risk of losing consistent energy service.

18:56 - How will your model tariff and current policies ensure such issues are addressed?

19:01 - And then what is the strategy to include guaranteed base load generation

19:06 - in Pennsylvania, such as coal, natural gas and nuclear power?

19:11 - So again, we do not regulate generation in Pennsylvania.

19:14 - So we cannot mandate that the advocacy that we talked about

19:19 - is the backstop option that the governors in the white House worked on.

19:22 - We are working on the details of that.

19:25 - How PJM holds that backstop option.

19:28 - The backstop option is designed to provide power procurement

19:31 - by PJM if they don't meet their load requirement.

19:35 - The last capacity auction PJM held, they were six gigawatts

19:39 - shy of their reserve margin.

19:41 - It was the largest deficit in an auction we've seen.

19:46 - So the governors, along with the white House, came forward

19:50 - with a plan with four basic tenets to it, trying to ensure reliability

19:55 - for our grid, for the native, for our existing ratepayers

19:58 - now on the grid, as well as being able to incorporate data centers.

20:03 - Well, I do remember Governor Shapiro having PJM at the,

20:07 - budget address saying that he was going to hold them accountable.

20:11 - So I'll look forward to that happening this year.

20:14 - Thank you.

20:16 - Thanks again.

20:17 - A lady, Representative Mullins.

20:19 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

20:20 - And, to the commissioners, it's great to see all of you and your teams here today.

20:24 - I've got, three issues I hope to hit here.

20:27 - The all of them surrounding, how our utility costs

20:32 - are, are impacted, but in different ways.

20:35 - The first matter, is the proposed acquisition,

20:40 - by Aqua, of Aqua by American Water, represents a significant

20:45 - potential consolidation within the water utility, landscape here in Pennsylvania.

20:50 - Can you just outline, in brief the process and timeline,

20:54 - for public participation and stakeholder input?

20:57 - On that process? Sure.

20:59 - So that application was filed late last year, I believe, last week in November.

21:04 - We are in the process of setting public input hearings.

21:08 - That is an acquisition.

21:10 - So there is no statutory timeline.

21:12 - I believe the, request in the filing was to,

21:16 - have the filing acted upon, by the fourth quarter of 2026.

21:21 - Okay.

21:21 - Thank you.

21:22 - And just wondering if has or does the commission have the ability,

21:27 - to evaluate current regulatory frameworks, including fair market value provisions?

21:32 - And to that would continue to provide balanced and equitable

21:36 - outcomes across the state in relation to these type of, of consolidations.

21:40 - Sure.

21:40 - In that process,

21:41 - we will be looking at the financials of it and looking at the details of the deal.

21:45 - Very good, very good. Moving on.

21:47 - What broadly is the most significant way that the PUC,

21:52 - could help to reduce the burden of utility costs for Pennsylvania?

21:56 - So, again, I think that a lot of these costs

21:58 - are coming on the on the wholesale end and how we deal with that.

22:02 - We've been active and obviously at first we will continue to be active there

22:07 - and trying to make sure we develop a market construct that actually works

22:13 - this, this capacity market, if we've seen anything,

22:18 - it's showing that it's cannot respond to to the current challenges.

22:23 - The load increase is too large,

22:26 - it's too rapid, and there's no end in sight.

22:29 - So this capacity construct was never designed

22:32 - to deal with these kind of challenges.

22:34 - PJM is going to have to come up with a new, market construct.

22:38 - If they don't, we would be simply purchasing

22:41 - power on the spot market in the day.

22:43 - AD market.

22:44 - Not that that's a good thing or bad thing.

22:46 - It's just

22:48 - it's a thing.

22:48 - So that's what will happen.

22:50 - I think that PJM has to work on that, though,

22:53 - and then try to bring enough supply in, because that's what's happening.

22:56 - Supply is not coming

22:57 - in, demands, increasing supplies, things stagnant or decreasing.

23:02 - And it's this simple supply demand paradigm.

23:05 - That's what's increasing costs, which leads,

23:08 - very well into my represented.

23:11 - I'm sorry, just, good question.

23:14 - And one thing I wanted to add about that advocacy, it is important.

23:18 - It is not futile when the commission gets involved through op c

23:23 - and our association, and when we get involved

23:27 - in the stakeholder process at PJM, we do get results.

23:32 - And and one example is PJM just looked at they do something called a quadrennial

23:38 - review where they look at the market, all the inputs, what's going into it.

23:43 - And they looked at the demand curve

23:46 - where prices set for capacity for the next four years.

23:50 - Going forward.

23:52 - Me and my staff, we offered a,

23:55 - a, potential solution into that stakeholder process.

24:00 - It was adopted by PJM.

24:02 - It's going to save $10 billion a year.

24:06 - So advocacy is very important.

24:10 - That's a great point, Sam. Terrific point.

24:13 - Finally, the, we recently passed the Load.

24:17 - Forecasting Accountability Act, in conjunction with the budget.

24:22 - This is something we should all be very, proud of.

24:25 - Having worked on, as we know, data center

24:30 - speculation is driving so much of our energy price increases.

24:35 - And, that is impacting,

24:38 - the, the, the, you know, price auctions.

24:43 - What would it what would it take to truly,

24:48 - and finally reduce or exclude,

24:54 - speculative, impacts?

24:57 - Would you need every state to pass what we did or can PJM act unilaterally

25:02 - to do so?

25:02 - And I see the lights on.

25:03 - I'm going to answer that real quick

25:04 - because, first off, you all should be very proud.

25:07 - Chairman Virgo should be very proud because of the bill,

25:10 - other states have taken lead.

25:11 - We you were the first to do that.

25:13 - Pretty much every other restructure state and in PJM is doing the same thing.

25:18 - We are entering an agreement with other states

25:22 - because we were the first ones out the gate.

25:24 - We need their data from their utilities.

25:27 - So we will be entering formal agreements with other states to compile

25:30 - all that data and to do a check on PJM load forecasts.

25:34 - You notice PJM already revised their load forecast, reduced by five gigawatts.

25:40 - That was resolved. Legislation passed here.

25:43 - Appreciate it.

25:43 - Thank you.

25:43 - Thank you, gentlemen.

25:44 - Representative Marcel, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

25:47 - And thank you so much for joining us this afternoon.

25:51 - As Representative Brown mentioned, this issue in terms of affordability

25:55 - and bills is just so important right now.

25:59 - We're hearing it from, you know, not only our constituents but family members.

26:03 - It's really affecting people to the point where they're making decisions

26:06 - and changing their budgets

26:07 - because of how much costs have increased, doubled, tripled, etc..

26:12 - So you talked a little bit about the supply

26:16 - and demand, aspect to this, which I appreciate.

26:19 - And so thank you for, for sharing those thoughts today.

26:22 - The thing that I've been hearing from my constituents

26:25 - is that they're concerned about their costs,

26:28 - but they're also concerned about the fact that because as part of PJM,

26:32 - we're all together in this meeting, that there are other states

26:36 - and their energy policies that are now impacting Pennsylvania consumers.

26:41 - And actually, we are, in a sense, subsidizing other states

26:46 - in PJM because of the energy production that we have in our state.

26:50 - And so, basically, those states are relying on us to help

26:53 - keep the lights on in our state and the rest of the area in PJM.

26:58 - So I wanted to talk.

26:59 - I recently attended to, House Republican Policy Committee hearings.

27:03 - One was in Pennsylvania, one was in Maryland.

27:05 - We were talking about how energy policies, you know, are important

27:10 - because we need to look at what we have now, what we have going forward

27:14 - when we're thinking about how costs are going to affect consumers.

27:18 - One of the PJM

27:21 - testifiers, Jason Stanek in Maryland.

27:24 - I just want to read a couple quotes PJM has been warning for several years

27:27 - now about the prospect

27:29 - that parts of our region could run short on power during high periods of demand.

27:33 - That possibility has been growing, partly due to state and federal policy

27:37 - decisions that are pushing generators to retire prematurely

27:40 - for the price of utility bills to go down in a meaningful way.

27:43 - The current supply and demand fundamentals will need to return

27:46 - to a more balanced position.

27:48 - Either supply will need to increase or demand will need to decrease.

27:51 - Just as you stated,

27:52 - we would implore all of our states in the region

27:55 - not to retire any more resources until you have

27:57 - a sufficient amount of resources to back those retirements.

28:00 - Finally, please consider that any changes to the supply demand imbalance

28:04 - that would aggravate further aggravate

28:06 - this imbalance will result in increased to customers on their utility bills.

28:10 - With that in mind, I am wondering.

28:13 - I appreciate your advocacy, but we have other states to worry about right now.

28:17 - So our surrounding states with carbon policies like those in Virginia,

28:21 - new Jersey and Maryland stressing and draining our grid.

28:24 - And is it fair to say that Pennsylvania is holding up the PJM grid right now

28:29 - as a largest exporter of electricity of any state in this nation?

28:35 - Yes. I just want it seem to me agree.

28:37 - Oh, yes. We export 12 to 14GW a day.

28:40 - I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that you were nodding.

28:43 - Oh, no. By far. Well, yeah.

28:44 - So I owe the 14GW a day.

28:46 - So then is it safe to say that if Pennsylvania starts adopting

28:49 - those similar types of policies and we're the largest exporter?

28:53 - So those policies meaning carbon taxes, over regulation, etc.,

28:58 - what would that mean for our grid and potential costs for Pennsylvanians

29:02 - if we're already struggling right now, that would be bad.

29:05 - Correct?

29:06 - Sure.

29:07 - I mean, as we talk about it, we need base load generation.

29:10 - You know, I know Representative Kell was talking about that.

29:14 - We need base load generation.

29:15 - We need dispatchable generation.

29:18 - To operate a grid. Exactly.

29:20 - Thank you so much for saying that.

29:22 - And then finally,

29:23 - I have had a little bit of frustration when I have seen in the last month or two

29:29 - that people are simply pointing a finger at PJM, as opposed to saying

29:33 - exactly what you are about, the importance of generation

29:37 - and how the policies that all of the PJM states are looking at

29:41 - or have already adopted are really a huge contributor.

29:45 - So is PJM simply a boogeyman right now?

29:48 - Bye bye bye.

29:49 - Some that are pointing the finger or is is there is there really something there?

29:53 - Well, again, I, I don't think they're the boogeyman.

29:57 - I think that their market is broken because it is not meeting

30:01 - the challenges of today.

30:02 - They had no way of knowing this data center proliferation was going to come on.

30:06 - No one did.

30:07 - I mean, in fairness to PJM, ten years ago, they had no way of knowing

30:11 - load forecasts were going to skyrocket like they are today.

30:15 - So they weren't prepared for this.

30:18 - I'm not going.

30:18 - I'm not going to sit here and be a Monday morning quarterback and blame them.

30:21 - Let's fix it.

30:22 - We have to fix this.

30:24 - Instead of blaming them and saying they didn't prepare, let's fix it.

30:27 - Because no one saw this coming and PJM or anyone.

30:31 - And by the way, we're talking about Jason,

30:33 - a very good friends of Jason, but he's the former chair of Maryland.

30:37 - Did you know that he was a former chair of the Maryland Commission?

30:40 - So a lot of you said he was talking about he was actually the chair

30:44 - of the commission at the time.

30:46 - I appreciate you sharing that.

30:47 - I'll just and to say that I hope that since he's from Maryland

30:50 - and that we've heard

30:51 - also about some things in new Jersey that we take those lessons to heart

30:55 - and we don't end up adopting those things in Pennsylvania.

30:58 - You're right.

30:58 - I will say that Maryland, they are trying to build some gas generation.

31:02 - I think that they are starting to see they need dispatchable base load generation.

31:07 - Thank you very much.

31:08 - Thank the gentle lady, Representative Donahue.

31:11 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

31:12 - And thank you, commissioners, for being here today.

31:14 - I've gone through a few rate making cases

31:18 - up in Lackawanna County in the last couple of years.

31:21 - And I feel like over the last couple of months, we've had one a month,

31:25 - with water, gas, electric.

31:28 - But through that rate making process, PUC,

31:31 - the PUC ensures the lowest responsible rate for consumers

31:35 - while maintaining financial stability for utilities.

31:38 - Under the law, the utility is entitled to recovery of its recently

31:41 - incurred inspector expenses and a fair return on its investment.

31:45 - The commission evaluates each utility's request for a rate

31:49 - increase based on those criteria.

31:51 - During a

31:52 - joint hearing, in January, before the House energy and House.

31:55 - Consumer Protection, Technology and Utilities Committee,

31:59 - chairman de Frank, suggested that the General Assembly should update

32:02 - the current statutory rate case time frame in order to better protect consumers.

32:07 - Could you just expand on that? Sure.

32:09 - So our current time line is nine months, which means we have 30.

32:13 - So it's actually 30 days to to adjudicated.

32:16 - But we can investigative for nine months.

32:19 - As we're seeing more and more rate cases, you know,

32:23 - representative, I know we talked about it before,

32:26 - you know, we were seeing six, eight rate cases a year.

32:30 - That was doable.

32:32 - You know, in 24, we had 31 rate cases filed.

32:35 - And it's just it's it's it's daunting at seven months.

32:40 - It's it's simply you know what?

32:42 - We heard many members from both sides of the aisle, you know, the word

32:46 - scrutiny come the word making sure these are prudent costs being incurred.

32:52 - And it just makes it increasingly difficult with such a short timeline.

32:57 - So any increase in a timeline, we would certainly, certainly.

33:00 - Is there a way we could make that more accessible to, to the average, ratepayer?

33:05 - So I became a party to one of our rate cases on behalf of my constituents

33:09 - and the amount of information and legal briefs

33:13 - over that, over the investigation time frame became pretty, pretty daunting.

33:18 - Is there a way that we could make it easier for,

33:22 - ratepayers to be parties to these and to but without being overwhelmed?

33:26 - So so we try to make it easy as possible through our public input hearings.

33:30 - If they wanted to actually be a party to the case,

33:33 - we have to remember that this is a legal proceeding.

33:35 - We have to make sure that all sides, you know, are getting a fair shake here.

33:39 - So, we'll talk about it.

33:41 - I'm not sure with actually,

33:44 - you know, entering

33:45 - appearance how they would do that to be a party to the case.

33:48 - And so that's why we do public input hearings. Yes.

33:51 - Make sure their voices heard.

33:52 - We did a lot of that up in Scranton there with, the last pay American case.

33:57 - And it resulted in a quality service study.

34:00 - Thank you for that.

34:01 - And then, finally, during his budget address, the governor outlined

34:04 - the need for a responsible infrastructure development standards for data centers.

34:09 - Could you provide input as it relates to what should be included in such standards?

34:13 - So I think the biggest thing that the governor talked about,

34:15 - and it's something that when I testified in the Senate,

34:18 - you asked me, it's a year ago, I probably wouldn't have been there.

34:21 - I had since changed my opinion, and that is bring your own generation.

34:26 - I think these data centers are an opportunity.

34:29 - I think they're an economic opportunity for us.

34:31 - But we have to do it responsibly.

34:33 - We've seen now in three auctions, this this PJM auction,

34:37 - this market has not responded.

34:39 - We need more generations.

34:41 - So if we're bringing these large users on, they're going to have to bring

34:44 - their own generation to ensure the lights stay on for the rest of us.

34:47 - And I agree to extend that back to Representative Mullins.

34:50 - Point two on our load forecasting. Right.

34:52 - We I think we have 12 data centers and 12 data center proposals

34:56 - in Lackawanna County and growing, but each one of them is not going to be built.

34:59 - Right. They're all in those forecasts, which is then in turn.

35:02 - That's right.

35:03 - And you guys passed that in November, and you already saw a load

35:06 - forecast out of PJM come out in January or February. Yes.

35:10 - And I think it's you know,

35:12 - it's our responsibility to make sure that the data centers

35:14 - are bringing that generation in and paying for those investments.

35:18 - And that's not going on.

35:19 - The, you know, the average ratepayer.

35:22 - But thank you for your answers, I appreciate it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

35:27 - Thank the gentleman.

35:28 - Representative Reichert.

35:30 - All right.

35:30 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

35:31 - Mr. chairman, thank you for joining us here today.

35:33 - Just to follow up a little bit on Representative Marcel

35:36 - and some of her comments, another way in which our our neighbors to the South,

35:41 - in response to some of the decisions they've made to cut back generation

35:45 - and their end is impacting Pennsylvania's through the, creation,

35:50 - the development of new, transmission lines, two of which

35:54 - go through the southern part of Pennsylvania,

35:56 - one in New York and one one through my district.

35:58 - And Representative Kaufman's district.

35:59 - I think a little bit in Rich Irvin's district two in Franklin County,

36:03 - where essentially, trans source PJM are proposing to take

36:09 - acres of pristine farmland, some of the best non irrigated soils

36:13 - in the United States so that we can put in a transmission line

36:17 - so that folks down in Maryland, Northern Virginia, can have access to

36:21 - cheaper power.

36:22 - And this has been ongoing for about ten years.

36:25 - Where do we stand and what's what's the PWCs role in that?

36:30 - So as you know, we did we did have a court case

36:33 - going on in that we did appeal to the Third Circuit.

36:36 - We, lost there and we decided not to appeal to the Supreme Court.

36:41 - We are preparing, potentially to go to Ferc and file a complaint on that.

36:47 - We're in the process of developing a complaint now or.

36:50 - Good.

36:50 - Because I think my understanding is that they're looking to resubmit.

36:54 - Does that does that sort of kick them back to square one or so?

36:58 - So if you recall that line, there was,

37:00 - you know, there was two segments to that line.

37:03 - The eastern segment through York County

37:05 - is no longer needed because in the interim other projects were built.

37:09 - So remove that need.

37:11 - The western leg is still needed.

37:13 - That's through Franklin County.

37:15 - And I believe they

37:18 - they're probably going to go

37:19 - forward and try to, rebuild.

37:22 - When we say need we're talking about

37:25 - an efficiency need or a reliability need.

37:28 - What's the need that they're proposing.

37:30 - We'll see what they file I don't know what they're going to file.

37:32 - I'm assuming they're filing it under the same, market efficiency project.

37:38 - But I don't know that which is essentially getting cheaper electricity to Maryland.

37:42 - And north and we'll use that residents.

37:45 - I mean, it's data centers, actually, it's not even residents.

37:48 - It's it's data centers.

37:49 - So, so really with that, that,

37:52 - you know, line, is there any real benefit to the ratepayers in Pennsylvania by,

37:56 - by PJM producing or putting these lines in?

38:01 - Well, no, we would argue there's, there's harm to Pennsylvania ratepayers

38:06 - because, our prices are going to be affected by generation leaving the state.

38:11 - That's, Oh, yes, ma'am.

38:14 - Like, I don't want to get too far into that because they will file with us.

38:19 - So we can't be seen as prejudging it.

38:22 - But it's really going to depend on, like you said, how they file it.

38:25 - Is it going to be reliability?

38:26 - Is it going to be efficiency.

38:28 - And also when PJM looks at the dollars

38:33 - and cents, we'll see.

38:37 - We shall see. Because things have changed over the years.

38:39 - Right. Sure. Yeah.

38:40 - We're ten years, ten years down the road.

38:41 - But thank you for that.

38:43 - And just sort of following up are there are other ways of

38:46 - there are other things that, that maybe, PJM or transport should be looking at,

38:50 - such as the transmission, siting and Economic Development program.

38:54 - I know there's some federal funds available for that for things

38:57 - like digesters.

38:58 - You know, again, this is going through some, some pretty pristine farmland.

39:02 - But, you know, there's

39:03 - there's other ways that we can incorporate AG into this generation.

39:06 - Are there

39:07 - other things that PJM should rather be looking at rather than perhaps these

39:11 - these transmission lines?

39:12 - I think we've already done a letter saying, yes.

39:14 - I mean, the last, transmission line being proposed,

39:18 - 300 mile transmission line, the 765 kV coming out of,

39:23 - West Virginia, going through southwestern Pennsylvania into the mid state.

39:28 - We've already wrote a letter saying, what's the cost of dropping

39:33 - generation there?

39:34 - Have you studied Homer City?

39:37 - Because Homer City's coming online,

39:40 - you know, taking generation out of there instead of building a 300 mile,

39:45 - $3 billion line, drop

39:48 - a generator for 1.5 billion, right.

39:51 - And makes sense right to it.

39:53 - Thank you.

39:54 - I appreciate I appreciate the background and again, everything that the PUC

39:58 - has been doing

39:59 - to support the folks back in Franklin County historically and obviously

40:02 - looking forward to working with you as as they continue to refile.

40:05 - Thank you. Thank you,

40:08 - thank you, gentlemen.

40:08 - Representative Abney, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

40:11 - Thank you, commissioners, for being here.

40:13 - I think that, a common theme that we're hearing throughout,

40:16 - today's hearing on both sides of the aisle is that,

40:19 - a lot of us are getting many calls into our district offices,

40:23 - from constituents who are concerned about the rising costs of their utilities.

40:28 - And they're always asking us like, what are we, as a legislator,

40:30 - doing to try to help bring those costs down?

40:33 - For the those who may be familiar with the PUC, they may be asking,

40:37 - what is the PUC doing?

40:38 - But I would say that from a lot of the calls

40:40 - that we are receiving, most folks aren't familiar with the PJM

40:43 - or who it is or what they do or how it operates and works.

40:47 - So I want to talk, but we talked about earlier today,

40:50 - they have a major impact on the cost of how utilities,

40:53 - the cost of utilities across the Commonwealth.

40:55 - And so I have a question around the their price cap requests.

40:59 - Recently, on February 27th, PJM submitted a request

41:03 - to Ferc pursuant to the Federal Power Act to extend the existing price cap

41:09 - and price floor for all reliability pricing model auctions

41:13 - through 2028, 2029 and 20292030 delivery years.

41:19 - Could you, discuss the potential impact

41:21 - that this request may have on our Pennsylvania ratepayers?

41:25 - Sure. So

41:27 - the price cap has been in place for two auctions.

41:30 - Now, it's estimated the governor estimates that it's saved about

41:33 - 18 billion, to be I said this is probably a little low ball.

41:37 - I think there may be a few more bucks in there.

41:39 - So after the auctions, PJM comes out and they say

41:43 - where the price would have been had the price, cap not been in place.

41:49 - So, you know, that number is quantified.

41:52 - It hasn't been extended yet.

41:55 - The filings before Ferc right now, so far has to decide

42:00 - whether they're going to allow the price cap to remain in effect.

42:03 - The current filing in front of Ferc is to extend it for another two auctions.

42:08 - This is something that came out of the governor's Collaborative

42:11 - on Large load as well as the white House.

42:14 - There was a question of whether we asked for delay

42:16 - of the auction or, extension of the price cap.

42:20 - You know, as an obviously vice president, I was supportive

42:23 - of the extension of the collar extension of the price cap.

42:27 - Because, again, this market's broken, we have to fix it

42:31 - and replace it with a market that can meet the challenges

42:35 - that's being faced, that's being faced with today.

42:38 - So it didn't make sense to go as is.

42:42 - We either had to cap it or delay it.

42:46 - I didn't think it was a good move to delay an auction on supply.

42:51 - When we're short on supply, right.

42:53 - We're trying to get supply.

42:55 - Why would we delay it? Auction for supply.

42:58 - So I of the two choices, I thought the extension of the price cap

43:03 - made sense because it protected ratepayers in a market that's not responding.

43:09 - Gotcha.

43:09 - So just for clarification, for all the ratepayers and constituents

43:13 - across Commonwealth who are watching this right now live, could you

43:16 - do you know when PJM is the timeline in which we can expect them

43:20 - to make a decision?

43:21 - So so it's not PJM decision.

43:23 - It's first decision I'm sorry for.

43:24 - And it will probably be in the next 60 days or so. Okay.

43:27 - So the next auction scheduled to take place in June, it will definitely.

43:31 - That decision will happen before the June auction.

43:34 - I suspect it will likely be, renewed for the next two auctions.

43:38 - Okay. Awesome. Thank you.

43:40 - So thank you, Commissioner Peggy. Mr. chairman, appreciate it.

43:43 - Thank you.

43:43 - Gentlemen. Representative Krupa, thank you, Mr.

43:46 - Chair. And thank you all for being here today.

43:48 - I do want to say a special hello to Chairman De Frank.

43:52 - Uniontown.

43:53 - Boy, if you were still there, I would be your representative.

43:55 - Always good to see you.

43:56 - I like small town boy, does good stories.

43:59 - So there's been a lot of conversation this morning and, frankly, answers

44:03 - that I'm very glad to hear,

44:05 - but I want to follow up on the transmission line issues.

44:08 - Project 237, which was approved

44:11 - by PJM, is a roughly 22 mile, transmission line

44:15 - being proposed by NextEra energy and Exelon Corporation.

44:19 - It's going to go through

44:20 - multiple Pennsylvania counties, as is most appropriate to me.

44:25 - And my constituents are most relevant.

44:27 - Is the Mid-Atlantic resiliency link.

44:30 - And my understanding

44:32 - is NextEra energy, just on March 3rd, filed their application.

44:36 - These projects raised concerns following the Commonwealth

44:40 - court's decision, and I believe the third circuit, decision and transports

44:44 - energy versus the PUC, which addressed the limits of transmission lines

44:50 - or transmission developers seeking public utility status,

44:53 - an eminent domain authority in Pennsylvania.

44:56 - So in the conversation has been all around this this morning.

44:59 - But I'm going to echo it.

45:00 - Energy costs in Pennsylvania are already one of the biggest complaints

45:04 - that I'm hearing from my residents and small businesses and large businesses.

45:08 - At the same time, we're hearing warnings

45:11 - that as potentially as early as next year

45:14 - that we could be experiencing brownouts and blackouts across the Commonwealth,

45:18 - which just amazes me that that could be an issue in 2027.

45:22 - So from this perspective, it feels deeply offensive on several fronts.

45:26 - It's offensive

45:28 - that Pennsylvania landowners could be placed at risk of losing property

45:32 - rights through easements or eminent domains to build these

45:35 - transmission corridors when they don't benefit Pennsylvania residents.

45:39 - It's offensive that Pennsylvania communities may have to host

45:44 - massive infrastructure that could export electricity out of state,

45:49 - placing not potentially, but it will place additional strain

45:53 - on our electrical grid at a time when reliability concerns are huge.

45:58 - And to add insult to injury, my understanding is,

46:02 - is that our constituents are going to see a hike in their electricity rates

46:06 - because they're going to bear,

46:08 - a portion of the costs of placing this transmission line. And

46:13 - so my

46:13 - question is, is simple, at least the first one is what specifically

46:18 - is the PUC doing to protect Pennsylvania landowners, to ensure

46:22 - that projects like these truly serve the public interest

46:25 - of Pennsylvania residents before any approvals are granted?

46:30 - So the project you're talking about is a federal project.

46:35 - We will get siting and siting application.

46:38 - But just like Transformers,

46:42 - it comes to us, but there's not a whole lot of leeway

46:45 - in terms of, particularly with this because this is a core project.

46:49 - So basically it's siting for us, but the projects

46:53 - being built somewhere in this area, that was a Ferc decision.

46:57 - And that's where it's falling under.

46:59 - So we cited but Ferc makes the decision to grant it

47:03 - if it's a market efficiency project similar to Transformers.

47:07 - And this isn't this isn't one of those projects.

47:10 - Again, this is a core project.

47:12 - We are going to actively fight those,

47:15 - at, at Ferc and try to get,

47:18 - basically challenging the PJM tariff on those projects.

47:23 - But, you know, there aren't a whole lot of levers

47:26 - and, or a lot of quivers or arrows in our quiver,

47:30 - in terms of this, because it is a federal.

47:32 - So with respect to the due process issues to the individual landowners,

47:37 - if our individual landowners that are going to be affected

47:42 - given notice and an opportunity to object at the PJM level,

47:48 - because that's that's my fear of if if you are stuck, then

47:50 - if the PUC is stuck with choices that PJM has made

47:55 - and those individual landowners are not afforded those basic due

47:58 - process rights, then we're in violation of both

48:00 - the United States and Pennsylvania Constitution.

48:02 - You're talking and you're talking about the line that you've recently

48:05 - had a public input or public meeting down in Smithfield, right? Yes.

48:08 - I think this is one of those

48:09 - Nazi lines that, that came out of federal legislation.

48:13 - So I'm not sure in terms of that.

48:17 - Like, I don't even know.

48:18 - The PJM even had a point in this.

48:20 - We're happy to get back to you and get more information on that.

48:23 - But I believe that was one of the the Nazi approvals, for reliability.

48:28 - And that's why I say it's a core.

48:30 - It's a core, it's a core project.

48:33 - Will the commission require a Pennsylvania specific cost analysis before

48:38 - approving the project or denying the project, or keep it neutral?

48:44 - Sure.

48:44 - We're going to look at we're going to look at a cost effective analysis.

48:47 - But again, when we looked at our cost

48:49 - analysis and transports, the core didn't agree with us.

48:53 - I have a I have many more questions, but my my light is red.

48:56 - So thank you very much for your time. Thank you Mr.

48:58 - Senior.

48:58 - Represent you to thank the gentle lady, Representative Gallagher.

49:03 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

49:04 - I appreciate, Commissioner being here.

49:06 - And, I really do appreciate, all of you for your work.

49:09 - I have a couple questions.

49:11 - Two different topics.

49:14 - The first question I have is

49:17 - to give you some context, over the past two years, a community

49:21 - in my district, 55 plus community has been dealing with power outages

49:25 - occurring in their community due to, storms and due to winter weather,

49:30 - and also high wind events as well in the summer.

49:35 - Mr. Chairman, we're seeing an uptick

49:37 - in these service, outages and concerns over grid stability.

49:41 - We see that.

49:42 - And as we transition our energy portfolio, we're seeing that more.

49:46 - What specific measurable benchmarks is the commission setting

49:50 - for utility companies to improve that last mile reliability?

49:54 - And, what clawback

49:56 - mechanisms are you prepared to implement if these companies receive rate increases

50:00 - but fail to meet, the reliability standards?

50:03 - So we are seeing reliability suffer around the Commonwealth.

50:06 - And a lot of it is, storm, related.

50:10 - We are seeing the impacts of storms, the frequency of them

50:15 - or more so, and the intensity is more so.

50:19 - The storms we had out in western Pennsylvania last

50:22 - year produce sustained 100 mile an hour winds.

50:25 - You are not going to build infrastructure to withstand 100 mile an hour winds.

50:29 - If you do, you're not going to be able to afford that infrastructure.

50:32 - So it's a question of reliability with affordability.

50:36 - Those are not competing interests.

50:38 - Those are complementary interests.

50:40 - It has to be affordable to be reliable.

50:42 - So it's that balance.

50:45 - It's how to harden the system, to withstand some of the challenges

50:49 - that it's facing, weather challenges that they did not face 40 years ago.

50:54 - And this same, this same community, sent me a message,

50:58 - in one of these storm events, 22 hours, they went without electricity.

51:02 - A really good question to this.

51:04 - And this has to do with that last mile of of transmission is

51:08 - what are we doing with regard to keeping our utility companies held

51:12 - to account and making sure that those pendulous tree limbs

51:16 - that are hanging down and potentially causing these outages, to occur,

51:21 - what are we doing to hold them accountable to make sure that that happens?

51:24 - So again,

51:24 - we don't have enough boots in the ground to walk every wire in Pennsylvania.

51:28 - So when we hear things like that, please report it.

51:31 - We will stay on utilities all the time

51:33 - about, tree maintenance because it's so easy to do that.

51:37 - That's easy maintenance to do.

51:39 - It's cheaper maintenance to do.

51:41 - That makes sense.

51:43 - So we do get on them.

51:45 - And please, your constituents see these trees?

51:48 - Please let us know.

51:49 - I appreciate that. We don't know if you don't tell us.

51:52 - And my second question, different line.

51:54 - Recently, members of our committee were out at,

51:58 - the Limerick Nuclear Generating Station, from constellation.

52:01 - While we were on site.

52:02 - We walked the site outside and went to where they keep the spent fuel rods.

52:07 - The dry casks, as they call them.

52:09 - After we remove, spent fuel rod,

52:13 - it's only about 10% of the fuel usage that has been utilized.

52:17 - And about 90% remains other countries and other, other areas of the world

52:22 - utilizing small modular reactors or utilizing those fuel rods,

52:26 - to allow them to get to 70%, these

52:29 - there may be a safety aspect to this that we're, we're, we're seeing,

52:33 - within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and our generating companies.

52:36 - However, is there been an assessment done with us to be able to utilize these rods

52:42 - a little bit further to get more energy out of them

52:44 - so that we were not continuously piling up?

52:46 - 90% left, fuel rods on, on our generators.

52:50 - So, you know, I will turn it over to Vice Chair Barrow, who's just recently joined

52:54 - a group for nuclear waste at the neighborhood level.

52:56 - I don't even know if you had the first meeting yet,

52:59 - so kind of putting her on the spot, but,

53:00 - you are absolutely correct, representative.

53:03 - We can learn a ton from France.

53:05 - France has an incredible nuclear program.

53:08 - This next generation of nuclear in Pennsylvania, you know, small, modular.

53:12 - I hope we've learned from the past, everything's uniform.

53:17 - Everything is standardized in France.

53:18 - So you're able to take apart from one generator in one part of the country,

53:23 - put it into another generator, another part of the country.

53:26 - Don't skip a beat.

53:27 - You're able to move personnel from one facility to another,

53:31 - and they know how it works, because it's all the same systems.

53:34 - They recycle all of their fuel.

53:36 - So they're they're doing all those things.

53:39 - I hope when we get into if we get into small modular

53:43 - nuclear, that we learn from that and we do uniform,

53:46 - we decide on what system we want and put that everywhere.

53:51 - And that that is cost effective.

53:53 - I appreciate that.

53:54 - And as my colleague from Beaver County pointed out,

53:56 - we need as much base load generation as we can get.

53:58 - This is one way to do it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

54:00 - Thank you. Thank you for your time.

54:03 - Thank you, gentlemen.

54:04 - Representative Barton, thank you, chairman and, welcome, chairman, to Frank.

54:08 - I certainly, since we're giving

54:10 - shout outs, Commissioner, surface, from Tamaqua, Pennsylvania.

54:14 - Welcome. Glad you're here as well.

54:16 - And, we're better in the southwestern part of the state.

54:18 - Right. Representative.

54:20 - Hold on, hold on.

54:21 - The medical area out there.

54:23 - I think the Nepa representation here is something to say.

54:26 - So we have, but we have hard coal, right?

54:29 - That's right.

54:30 - And, the commissioner was just telling me about a proud painting

54:33 - she has in her office, depicting hard coal.

54:36 - And I proudly represent Schuylkill County, and I think there's significant

54:40 - concerns, chairman, about about the impact the governor's,

54:44 - press proposal would have if enacted as part of the governor's lightning plan.

54:50 - Some of my

54:50 - concerns include the impact to grid reliability

54:54 - by risking the loss of investment

54:57 - in reliable thermal generation, which threatens Pennsylvania's status

55:03 - as a net exporter of electricity and negatively impacts the APS tier

55:08 - two generation resources, including waste coal generation facilities.

55:13 - Can you speak about these different concerns and the potential impacts

55:17 - this proposal would have, on these tier two generation resources?

55:23 - So in terms of the proposal on tier two, I think that,

55:26 - you know, the General Assembly has made some changes in tier two.

55:30 - And I think we've seen some of those costs go up.

55:33 - In terms of the press proposal, what I think it does

55:37 - is it gives us resource diversity.

55:40 - One of the issues were challenged with and and in addition to the increases

55:45 - in the capacity market at PJM, the actual increases has been in the cost of fuel.

55:50 - And as we are seeing, you know, as gas prices go up,

55:54 - larger prices go up, gas prices go down, electric prices go down.

55:58 - Tying these more and more together,

56:01 - a press

56:02 - proposal or any whatever you want to call it, any sort of,

56:05 - you know, portfolio standard, legislation is going to give you fuel diversity.

56:11 - So we're not putting all those eggs in one basket

56:14 - and allowing the market to drive that, because that's what's happening now.

56:18 - Gas by far is the lowest cost,

56:22 - you know, new generation to build.

56:24 - You can't build a nuclear nuclear power slope

56:28 - lower cost, but for new generation natural gas.

56:32 - And that's why it's the reference resource at PJM

56:36 - is because that's what's being built. It's the most economical.

56:38 - So keep in mind what tier two status was installed to assist the waste coal

56:43 - industry, at a time when they couldn't compete with natural gas, to your point,

56:48 - and without those programs, many waste coal plants wouldn't be operating

56:51 - today at all.

56:52 - So the benefit of running these plants is continued reclamation.

56:58 - Right.

56:58 - And conservation of mind pitch

57:02 - that would otherwise not be reclaimed in Pennsylvania.

57:06 - The cost and time

57:09 - needed to replace any of the waste coal generation will both be significant

57:13 - in a deregulated electric market, and investors,

57:17 - will be hesitant to put up the amount of investment required without knowing what

57:22 - returns might be at the end, they'll need certain returns on their investments.

57:26 - Right? That's that's fair to say.

57:28 - So I, I don't think we can turn a blind eye

57:32 - to, to to the waste coal plants at all.

57:34 - And keep in mind you,

57:35 - you talked about costs going up the, the, the spot prices in last year's apps

57:39 - were $36, where currently prices are roughly about $22,

57:43 - and they've been under 25 for for most of the past year.

57:48 - A falling price doesn't sound like the market is anticipating

57:52 - any time a credit shortage.

57:53 - So, likewise, this would lead to, lower program costs, too.

57:57 - So I will say, first off, on apps, we are headed for force majeure on that.

58:03 - We met with a rep, last week.

58:05 - We went through it.

58:06 - Unless they're building a new generator,

58:08 - they will not have enough credits to meet the need.

58:11 - Likely next year.

58:12 - So we will have to declare force majeure, suspend tier two apps credits

58:17 - until credits accumulate back up, and then reinstitute the program.

58:21 - You know,

58:23 - I understand

58:24 - the problem or the issues that waste coal generators have had.

58:27 - And those are tight margins.

58:29 - It's, you know, bringing that coal.

58:30 - They're cleaning up the environment, as you said, as well as producing

58:33 - electricity.

58:34 - However, those costs have increased significantly

58:38 - from 3.6 million in 2021

58:41 - to 3706,000,000 in 2024.

58:45 - They increased by 12,500% over three years.

58:49 - We have to put more credits into tier two to stabilize that pricing,

58:54 - but keep in mind that where we are right now

58:57 - at $22 versus 36 of last year.

59:00 - So that's that's significant and under 25 for for most of this past year.

59:05 - So in in my yellow lights on.

59:07 - But in 2024 compliance year

59:11 - there were almost as many eligible tier two credits created

59:15 - 13.3 million as retired 13.4 million.

59:19 - So we can conclude that the market is coming into a balance, as indicated

59:24 - by the lower credit prices. Can we

59:27 - but you realize that that's a smaller percentage of.

59:30 - Yeah.

59:30 - So tier two only represents a 8%, tier one's 10% and tier two out cost.

59:35 - Tier one.

59:36 - So tier two is more expensive in tier one for less power.

59:39 - I have further comments, but it's a short day and my time is up.

59:43 - Thank you very much for your time.

59:44 - Thank the gentleman. Representative Webster.

59:48 - Thank you, Chairman Harris.

59:49 - Chairman Frank, I'm glad you're here.

59:51 - I as we're watching back and forth, I think you're hearing loud

59:54 - and clear that I think we share a lot of different concerns.

59:58 - 839 We obviously coming from different angles.

01:00 - 02.841 And I'm going to ask you a different set of questions,

01:00 - 05.969 but it occurred to me at first that I don't want your job.

01:00 - 08.981 And then I thought, well, that's a good challenge, right?

01:00 - 12.318 So if you like my job and you say to a little longer

01:00 - 13.786 that maybe we could do this,

01:00 - 17.880 I'm going to talk a little bit about the weather normalization adjustment.

01:00 - 22.352 My my understanding is the calculation originates a 30 year look back.

01:00 - 23.987 Is that where it starts?

01:00 - 26.532 Is that accurate?

01:00 - 30.502 I am not sure what to look back is we can get that information okay.

01:00 - 33.563 Because and we may go on to other questions

01:00 - 37.643 because because the follow up question that was sort of to understand what data

01:00 - 41.871 we have, of whether the adjustments being made in the rates

01:00 - 45.217 are at all consistent with current weather.

01:00 - 47.319 Right. So we can get that too far.

01:00 - 49.822 And we talked to you get that data for you as well.

01:00 - 52.849 We can get you what we I believe we can give you what we've

01:00 - 57.262 what was paid out in pennies and then what was given back this year.

01:00 - 00.356 Customers are certainly, benefiting.

01:01 - 03.826 They've gotten more back from a A than they paid out.

01:01 - 06.105 I'm not sure you will.

01:01 - 07.673 You got the case every year.

01:01 - 09.842 I suspect it's probably reversed.

01:01 - 11.910 And you saw you saw where I was going.

01:01 - 15.681 So yeah, the data and analysis and then and sometimes

01:01 - 19.218 we manage risk and sometimes we shift risk around.

01:01 - 23.155 So knowing which way the yes the rate will get that information

01:01 - 24.179 will be very helpful.

01:01 - 26.125 Well, well good.

01:01 - 29.819 Because that leads to it gives me time for the completely different question.

01:01 - 35.258 And that is a concern that's very dear in my district.

01:01 - 37.236 Right. We're talking about data centers.

01:01 - 40.830 And we've spent a lot of time on energy, not so much on water,

01:01 - 44.333 but in my area already,

01:01 - 48.447 because of extreme storms, because of infrastructure that we have

01:01 - 53.276 in place that gets water into our creeks really rapidly rather than

01:01 - 58.357 filtering down into aquifers and wells, we're already at a position where

01:01 - 03.786 we're closing areas that that just don't absorb water the way they used to.

01:02 - 07.032 And so we we have to pipe it in.

01:02 - 11.894 And, and as we look at the impact of data centers and water usage,

01:02 - 15.207 just your assessment of maybe

01:02 - 18.110 talking about managing those risks as well.

01:02 - 18.511 Sure.

01:02 - 23.072 So water management is the function that water withdrawal,

01:02 - 26.843 I will say that most data centers it depends on the system.

01:02 - 29.288 A lot of them operate closed loop systems.

01:02 - 33.850 So once the water's filled, it's it's not a consumption usage.

01:02 - 39.098 It's initially consumption usage but it's more for cooling.

01:02 - 43.936 So if they don't have a closed loop system they're typically not consuming it.

01:02 - 47.200 They're using the wires are taking it and cooling it and then putting it back out.

01:02 - 52.778 All those intake discharge, issues are EPA issues.

01:02 - 57.673 Now, when we look at the Amazon facility up in the mid state and we did

01:02 - 01.153 that is being served by public water and Sylvania Americans,

01:03 - 05.581 the provider there, we did approve the line extension.

01:03 - 09.018 And again, that's something that Amazon paid

01:03 - 12.798 one of the make sure American ratepayers weren't picking up the tab for.

01:03 - 16.125 That was exclusively paid for by Amazon.

01:03 - 18.971 And that's the biggest challenge with this one.

01:03 - 21.240 We talk about our large low tariff.

01:03 - 26.169 It's insulating customers from these costs and how we do that.

01:03 - 29.481 Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's more challenging.

01:03 - 32.618 But we have to make sure we're insulating these customers I think.

01:03 - 35.645 And I'm looking across, you know, the chamber here this morning.

01:03 - 37.055 I think we all agree with that.

01:03 - 40.082 Number one is protecting our residential ratepayers

01:03 - 43.629 and then letting the economy grow at the same time.

01:03 - 46.064 But we have to we have to and we can do both.

01:03 - 48.934 Yeah, we do both. It's not either or. It's both.

01:03 - 52.061 I think I think there's an agreement on that part.

01:03 - 53.906 And then we're going to,

01:03 - 56.933 you know, we're going to kick and scream about how we make that happen.

01:03 - 57.844 You bet.

01:03 - 59.244 Thanks for your input.

01:03 - 01.380 Thank you very thank the gentleman.

01:04 - 02.438 Representative Nelson.

01:04 - 05.317 Thank you, Mr.

01:04 - 06.085 Chair.

01:04 - 07.653 And welcome, chairman.

01:04 - 09.555 I'd like to,

01:04 - 12.191 continue that conversation on the steps.

01:04 - 17.854 And I just wanted to start out at the end of, the previous, questions.

01:04 - 22.925 I think we might have swapped our tier one into percentages.

01:04 - 25.537 Right. It's 8% currently for tier one.

01:04 - 27.806 Tier one? That's. I just got to know to hand it to me.

01:04 - 29.208 Yes, yes. No, no problem at all.

01:04 - 30.409 I just wanted to make sure

01:04 - 33.946 I started to scramble because I was like, wait, is it is it in my mind?

01:04 - 37.039 So, but overall AP,

01:04 - 41.611 you know, I'm, I'm an all of the above guy, but also,

01:04 - 45.615 you know, Pennsylvanians are suffering from rate increases and EPS

01:04 - 48.851 as it stands now, over $700 million

01:04 - 51.897 additional cost that we both agree

01:04 - 55.424 a came in and are paid for by Pennsylvania ratepayers.

01:04 - 00.763 48% of those costs were

01:05 - 05.177 tier one, 52 were from tier two.

01:05 - 08.046 So, it's almost a 25% difference.

01:05 - 12.808 I'm taking these facts from your, PWCs AP report.

01:05 - 17.179 You're familiar with them, but I've just, you know, the viewers may not.

01:05 - 21.450 So when we look at tier one, which is, you know, primarily wind and solar,

01:05 - 24.696 they're costing 29, 50

01:05 - 27.790 a megawatt hour compared to tier two,

01:05 - 32.304 which is 26, 90 approximately a megawatt hour.

01:05 - 36.165 So it's almost 10% more a credit.

01:05 - 39.912 And tier one, right.

01:05 - 44.106 That's we're getting when we talk about waste coal,

01:05 - 48.453 waste coal in tier two

01:05 - 53.659 is 100% in state facilities versus more than half of our tier one.

01:05 - 56.686 Our solar credits are are purchased from out of state.

01:05 - 59.164 You know, so I realized before,

01:05 - 02.334 your department does not have the environmental aspect,

01:06 - 04.636 but we have a lot of waste coal in Westmore land County,

01:06 - 08.631 over a thousand acres of waste coal, according to our conservation district.

01:06 - 10.510 And so we have the

01:06 - 14.170 environmental clean up and the benefits that waste coal brings.

01:06 - 17.349 My question is, you know,

01:06 - 21.344 isn't it accurate to say that tier two delivers more electricity

01:06 - 25.424 at lower cost per megawatt from in-state

01:06 - 28.684 providers with the base load power that you had mentioned?

01:06 - 33.789 As compared to the not as reliable tier one wind and solar,

01:06 - 37.302 I'm not sure that we'd have to get back to you,

01:06 - 39.705 because I'm not sure that I agree with you on your numbers.

01:06 - 41.974 I wanted to check with our staff here.

01:06 - 45.501 So I'm not sure I will say that,

01:06 - 48.871 we did close borders for solar,

01:06 - 52.884 and we also closed borders for tier two, so I am not sure

01:06 - 57.179 what else in tier one would be coming from out of state, as I noticed you.

01:06 - 59.458 Yeah, I think you comment on in-state.

01:06 - 01.326 Yes, a little bit, a little more.

01:07 - 06.422 So if I can get back to you on that, once we, look through our technical staff.

01:07 - 07.133 Absolutely.

01:07 - 09.468 And then if we're, if we drilling down a little bit

01:07 - 13.538 more about the wind and solar, you know, the reliability issue, because I think

01:07 - 16.532 in July of 25, PJM ranked solar panels

01:07 - 21.113 11% reliability rating under their El-Sisi.

01:07 - 25.217 The effective load carrying capacity, you know, and you touched on that earlier

01:07 - 29.578 about the reliability, as you know. So,

01:07 - 33.458 when we look at the governor's press

01:07 - 36.328 legislation that HB 501, which has passed

01:07 - 40.256 the House, you know, is, a Partizan vote, all Democrats supported it

01:07 - 44.436 or Republican opposed, that would increase those wind

01:07 - 47.730 and solar credits from 8% to 35%,

01:07 - 51.000 and then slice waste coal in half.

01:07 - 55.047 Is it fair to say that ratepayers would end up paying

01:07 - 58.074 significantly more if forced to absorb

01:07 - 01.510 an 8% to 35% increase?

01:08 - 02.021 Yeah.

01:08 - 05.848 So I think it's fair to say the ratepayers are going to pay more.

01:08 - 10.729 You know, when you're increasing the percentages and you're prescribing

01:08 - 14.857 what the increase is as opposed to allowing the market to determine it?

01:08 - 18.461 I will say, however, the farther out you look

01:08 - 22.507 that will likely stabilize because as I'm saying, is we're putting

01:08 - 27.002 all of our eggs in one basket and ignoring resource diversity.

01:08 - 29.781 We're going to be tied to that resource.

01:08 - 32.317 Then, regardless of what it is, whether it's waste coal,

01:08 - 35.921 whether it's natural gas, whatever it is, we're going to be tied.

01:08 - 37.556 More to that, I agree with you.

01:08 - 41.393 Messing with it at all really puts a lot of things potentially.

01:08 - 41.594 Right.

01:08 - 45.330 And the question is, is where is the break even point of the increased

01:08 - 48.667 cost compared to the cost you're going to be saving in a long. Yes.

01:08 - 50.402 And I think we also have to factor

01:08 - 54.206 the environmental benefit that, you know, cleaning up waste coal.

01:08 - 56.875 Any plan that's knocking waste coal consumption,

01:08 - 00.102 it really runs almost directly against environmental improvements,

01:09 - 03.115 at least through my lens in the water creek.

01:09 - 06.542 And, you know, the sheds and what we're trying to accomplish.

01:09 - 09.912 You know, the last thing I want to touch on, because these are solar credits,

01:09 - 14.059 they're not necessarily always solar energy, right.

01:09 - 17.086 Because credit is just kind of a virtual thing that's purchased.

01:09 - 21.924 So if people are purchasing credits, they may not be bringing more energy

01:09 - 24.326 with them. Is that accurate?

01:09 - 26.739 Yeah.

01:09 - 32.377 Credit is equal to one one one megawatt equals one credits.

01:09 - 33.812 So credit does equal.

01:09 - 36.839 But is it actually delivered energy?

01:09 - 41.043 I mean I know they can purchase a credit, but is that an actual delivered

01:09 - 43.955 energy to the system.

01:09 - 45.090 Yes it is.

01:09 - 45.825 Okay. Thank you.

01:09 - 48.851 Thank you very much.

01:09 - 50.196 Thank the gentleman.

01:09 - 53.222 Representative Salisbury.

01:10 - 02.842 Thank you.

01:10 - 05.868 Chairman.

01:10 - 07.445 In the 34th district

01:10 - 10.873 in Allegheny County that I have the privilege of representing.

01:10 - 13.385 We have the cell, the red light on.

01:10 - 16.421 I don't know if you want to reset, unless you just want to give me infinite times.

01:10 - 17.589 Up to you.

01:10 - 18.424 Okay. Thanks.

01:10 - 22.027 In the district in Allegheny.

01:10 - 25.964 County that I'm privileged to represent, last year,

01:10 - 29.491 we had an 11 day power outage that.

01:10 - 33.362 I think it goes without saying, my constituents were not delighted about.

01:10 - 39.177 So in the wake of that, incident, I've put a lot of time,

01:10 - 42.247 going in the weeds, shall we say, of how public

01:10 - 45.241 utilities work in Pennsylvania.

01:10 - 48.186 I know in January,

01:10 - 51.389 you put out, you being the Public Utilities Commission, not literally.

01:10 - 56.986 You, put out a report evaluating the performance after that storm.

01:10 - 01.266 And, I know a lot of us were a little bit puzzled

01:11 - 04.293 because the the report was generally positive, but

01:11 - 08.907 it did have some notes that I wanted to point out which indicated

01:11 - 12.777 that large scale events continue to test electric distribution company

01:11 - 16.872 assumptions about staffing, logistics and restoration timelines,

01:11 - 21.186 as well as the fact that sufficient access to skilled line workers, both internal

01:11 - 24.256 and through mutual aid, is critical to restoring service

01:11 - 27.283 safely and efficiently following major outages.

01:11 - 30.686 The trouble that we're having

01:11 - 34.957 is that we really don't see the investment in the personnel

01:11 - 40.195 in Allegheny County, so my district entirely uses Duquesne Light.

01:11 - 43.666 And I feel that the way that the,

01:11 - 46.645 capital investment system is

01:11 - 50.072 incentivizing shifting routine maintenance

01:11 - 55.411 over to a categories categorization of capital expenditure

01:11 - 01.083 under the Ltip and the SEC programs exacerbates that problem.

01:12 - 06.255 So what I would like to talk about and ask you about today is,

01:12 - 09.992 do you feel that we're over incentivizing

01:12 - 15.206 calling things capital investments because of the fact

01:12 - 18.901 that they can utilities companies like Duquesne Light can get that.

01:12 - 23.505 I don't know if you'd like to call it a rebate, but effectively a payment, right.

01:12 - 25.785 Maybe

01:12 - 29.321 maybe that's the and I'll be honest with you,

01:12 - 32.724 that's when we go back to rate cases and timing of that.

01:12 - 37.686 And our ability to scrutinize what is capital expense and what isn't.

01:12 - 41.099 That would certainly help with that, because you're giving us more time

01:12 - 44.126 to do that as we're getting 30 rate cases a year.

01:12 - 48.597 Getting into that sort of detail makes it very, very, very difficult.

01:12 - 51.776 I know that it's very challenging when we do have a big storm

01:12 - 54.879 because we have so many contractors working now.

01:12 - 57.549 And I know, for example, when a lot of people were pulled in

01:12 - 01.777 from even out of state to work on the outage last spring,

01:13 - 05.414 a lot of them were unfamiliar with the local infrastructure.

01:13 - 06.758 And to be very frank,

01:13 - 10.219 a lot of them indicated that it was very poorly maintained. Yes.

01:13 - 16.468 So is there any way to incentivize having more full time staff

01:13 - 20.205 when the state PUC system allows

01:13 - 23.732 the usage of contractors in emergencies to be treated as a capital expense?

01:13 - 27.278 So one of the things that we have

01:13 - 30.415 not done is we are getting into micromanaging

01:13 - 33.842 that utility and telling them how many they need.

01:13 - 38.280 I think it's more important to look at the reliability

01:13 - 41.650 when we look at their response of that storm.

01:13 - 44.796 I think that it's clear that, some best practices

01:13 - 48.924 need to be followed, by the company in question there.

01:13 - 52.728 And, you know, I know there are sister companies around the state

01:13 - 57.366 was trying to help them that using best practices, trying to get people in early,

01:13 - 03.205 trying to put a, a, a company person with out of town crews.

01:14 - 06.542 So then they have a resource there with the crew

01:14 - 07.952 so they know where they're going.

01:14 - 11.580 Little simple things like that that you wouldn't think would be

01:14 - 13.892 we would have to talk about.

01:14 - 14.827 But we are.

01:14 - 17.562 So it's how to manage

01:14 - 22.200 in that in that time of the more and more that I dig into the way

01:14 - 26.571 that the PUC regulates utilities, you know, we call them

01:14 - 29.808 public utilities, but realistically, they're not really public.

01:14 - 30.342 A lot of people

01:14 - 33.602 I talk to even think that sometimes their utilities are a non profit.

01:14 - 38.149 But we do know that companies like Duquesne Light,

01:14 - 42.220 Duquesne Light itself is almost entirely owned by foreign private equity.

01:14 - 45.757 There is almost no American ownership of it whatsoever.

01:14 - 48.750 There is no publicly traded portion of it.

01:14 - 53.455 The more that I look at the system, the more I'm unable to comprehend

01:14 - 59.103 any other conclusion than the fact that we are through the Pennsylvania

01:14 - 02.574 public Utilities Commission's regulation of utilities,

01:15 - 05.601 we are allowing foreign private equity

01:15 - 08.379 to build wealth for themselves

01:15 - 12.417 off the backs of taxpayers in Pennsylvania, off

01:15 - 16.845 the backs of people who've lost their jobs in favor of contractors

01:15 - 21.459 and off the backs of ratepayers themselves who can ill afford it.

01:15 - 25.320 Would you say that that's anything that you would contest, or

01:15 - 27.232 is there anything that we can do about that?

01:15 - 31.369 So the issue of foreign ownership came up in the Senate and our hearing

01:15 - 35.840 and again, I think that's a that's a policy decision of the body.

01:15 - 38.934 If you don't want foreign ownership of public utilities

01:15 - 43.181 and you pass a law that says we're not allowing for an ownership

01:15 - 44.349 of public utilities,

01:15 - 47.785 for us to sit here and say a foreign entity is not allowed to own that,

01:15 - 49.621 I don't know that we're going to have standing.

01:15 - 53.148 We're probably going to be in court the next day and we'd like to lose.

01:15 - 57.252 But the statute, I mean, having the weight of law is a different story.

01:15 - 58.863 Thank you.

01:15 - 00.932 Thank the gentle lady, Representative Divan.

01:16 - 03.234 So thank you, Chairman Harrison.

01:16 - 05.236 Chairman Frank, always a pleasure to see you.

01:16 - 06.171 How are you? Good.

01:16 - 08.673 Shout out to southwestern Pennsylvania. That's right.

01:16 - 09.697 Bell Vernon.

01:16 - 11.509 That's right, that's right.

01:16 - 12.877 I just want to.

01:16 - 15.747 Representative Nelson took a couple of my questions here.

01:16 - 17.215 So I'm going to fill in a little bit, but.

01:16 - 20.184 But in 2019, Governor Wolf signed an executive

01:16 - 23.321 order, entered us into Reggie from 2019 until now,

01:16 - 27.215 how many base load power plants have been built across the Commonwealth?

01:16 - 30.395 So I'm not sure we're going to get back to and so Representative.

01:16 - 34.732 Kell said that one in York, I know it was built in that time period.

01:16 - 36.768 I don't know when it was announced though. Okay.

01:16 - 38.703 How many have closed?

01:16 - 40.371 How many have closed? We can get that number.

01:16 - 42.040 Okay. I'm not sure I'd appreciate that.

01:16 - 45.577 And whenever you answered, 2019

01:16 - 49.438 was Lackawanna Power Station natural gas.

01:16 - 50.282 Okay.

01:16 - 53.308 So there was only one that closed, or you just opened up. Oh.

01:16 - 55.077 I'm sorry, I'm sorry. What? Okay, I gotcha.

01:16 - 59.557 Okay, so I believe in a previous speaker.

01:16 - 04.486 You said that on a daily market, make up 8% is renewables, wind and solar.

01:17 - 06.130 Is that accurate?

01:17 - 09.067 Under the tier one, apps. Yes. Yeah.

01:17 - 09.768 Tier one.

01:17 - 13.438 So if we took a day in February where it was, it was brutally cold

01:17 - 17.208 air for those few weeks at 4:00, everybody comes home from work.

01:17 - 19.243 You know, the solar panels aren't going to cut it.

01:17 - 23.138 If everybody was going to cook dinner, turn their, you know, their lights on.

01:17 - 27.743 If we needed to supply electricity for our grid, where would we get that,

01:17 - 31.990 that electricity to make up for that renewable that just wouldn't be there.

01:17 - 36.194 So so the way the grids, and, the previous

01:17 - 40.355 representative from Greensburg talked about this is a fact of low

01:17 - 43.601 guarantee acid.

01:17 - 46.537 And what it is, is it, it

01:17 - 49.531 it puts a percentage on,

01:17 - 52.143 types of generation and how they respond.

01:17 - 56.738 So as you pointed out, solar panels are ten, 12%.

01:17 - 59.917 So when PJM is looking at their grid and they're looking at

01:17 - 03.245 do we have enough power, they're taking that into consideration.

01:18 - 08.250 So if they have 100MW of solar, they're counting it as ten megawatts basically.

01:18 - 11.429 So you need back, base load generation.

01:18 - 15.333 I'm not going to deny that you need dispatchable base load generation.

01:18 - 19.504 But when our, our grid is real time grid and you have to be able to manage

01:18 - 20.205 it real time.

01:18 - 23.207 So whenever we have to go out and subsidize that grid,

01:18 - 25.276 what do we pay for that electricity at that time?

01:18 - 26.111 Whenever we got to go

01:18 - 29.638 get that base load to get caught up, what do we pay for that base load?

01:18 - 34.218 So, I don't so again, we're an exporter.

01:18 - 37.588 So if you're asking I don't know that we import a lot.

01:18 - 40.358 I mean, PJM imports, obviously.

01:18 - 43.452 And it depends on it depends on the situation.

01:18 - 46.988 You know, we were during the last cold spell, PJM was exporting,

01:18 - 48.700 exporting a lot of power.

01:18 - 50.501 We were sending power up to new York.

01:18 - 52.770 I said we were sending power up to New England.

01:18 - 54.539 We're sending power out to myself.

01:18 - 56.274 So we were exporting a lot of power.

01:18 - 57.809 There are times, though,

01:18 - 01.236 during Winter Storm Elliot, for instance, we were importing power.

01:19 - 05.283 It depends on the specific situation and it depends on what's happening,

01:19 - 08.310 because a lot of that is coming in at spot price.

01:19 - 11.222 So it can be $20.

01:19 - 12.490 It could be $200.

01:19 - 14.559 It depends on the market conditions of that.

01:19 - 14.827 Yeah.

01:19 - 19.564 So here's my concern with the with the with the green and the renewables upfront.

01:19 - 21.332 We are subsidizing it.

01:19 - 23.668 We already have folks who can't afford their electric bills.

01:19 - 25.703 Now we got to give them assistance.

01:19 - 27.905 Now whenever we

01:19 - 31.542 we got to bring in the base load capacity, you know to make up for that market.

01:19 - 32.877 When a green energy isn't there,

01:19 - 35.446 it just keeps it just keeps pushing up on our ratepayers.

01:19 - 38.750 And not not only that, but what happens in 10 or 15 years

01:19 - 42.286 when he solar panels they decommissioned our windmill blades need somewhere to go.

01:19 - 45.389 That's all going to get passed on back to the ratepayers.

01:19 - 48.392 And my point is is we just it's time here in Pennsylvania

01:19 - 51.920 where the energy leader across this country or across this country,

01:19 - 54.966 we need to do things so that we are producing base load

01:19 - 57.826 electricity here in the United States. Thank you.

01:20 - 01.306 Chair.

01:20 - 04.332 Thanks the gentleman and recognizes Representative Fleming.

01:20 - 07.279 Thank you, Mr.

01:20 - 09.347 Chairman.

01:20 - 11.382 Commissioners, it's great to see you today.

01:20 - 12.517 It's great to have you here.

01:20 - 18.280 We've heard a lot about, the costs of affording utilities.

01:20 - 22.684 Electric mostly, but I want to I want to hone in a little bit on,

01:20 - 24.896 sort of the process. Right.

01:20 - 29.157 If if a utility company wants to raise its rates,

01:20 - 33.295 whether it's kilowatt hour or whether it's rates, per,

01:20 - 38.242 you know, for water usage or gas usage, what does that process look like?

01:20 - 40.244 They can't just wake up one morning and say,

01:20 - 42.780 hey, we're going to raise our rates on our ratepayers.

01:20 - 44.615 How do they go about doing that?

01:20 - 46.918 So again, we're going to restructure state.

01:20 - 49.821 So to let's take a gas company.

01:20 - 54.482 The majority of people get their natural gas supply from their gas company.

01:20 - 55.326 You know,

01:20 - 56.094 a lot of people

01:20 - 59.221 get electric supply through the service from their electric company.

01:20 - 05.393 So if we're talking the cost of that, that's that's a default service proceeding

01:21 - 09.040 in terms of the electric company, it's a gas cost proceeding.

01:21 - 11.876 And the return in the case of the natural gas company.

01:21 - 13.411 So that's one side of it.

01:21 - 17.248 If you're talking about the delivery of the of the commodity,

01:21 - 20.408 whatever it is, that's their rate, that's their tariff.

01:21 - 23.712 And that's a different side of the conversation.

01:21 - 27.458 But in order to do that, they have to make their case to the Public.

01:21 - 30.261 Utility Commission. Correct? They absolutely do that.

01:21 - 32.363 It has to be in the public interest.

01:21 - 36.458 They come they so in a case of a rate case, they file their rate case.

01:21 - 38.970 As I said, they're statutory advocates.

01:21 - 41.997 So the statutory advocates are

01:21 - 45.567 is the Commission's Bureau of Investigation enforcement agency,

01:21 - 50.147 the small business advocate and the consumer advocate.

01:21 - 52.216 Those are the three statutory advocates.

01:21 - 55.553 You may have other groups like Paul or or others.

01:21 - 58.580 They get involved in a case, they enter the case,

01:21 - 02.059 and then, you know, they it's a litigation.

01:22 - 05.086 And if they they may come to a settlement

01:22 - 07.798 or they may fully litigate it at some point,

01:22 - 11.126 if they come to a settlement question, is it a partial settlement?

01:22 - 14.996 Is it a full settlement that all parties signed to it or not?

01:22 - 19.901 Sometimes a specific aspect of a case might be fully litigated.

01:22 - 21.646 With everything else settled.

01:22 - 22.614 It just all depends.

01:22 - 27.676 It's very case specific, but that's sort of the general framework of it.

01:22 - 30.946 Those parties develop a revenue requirement.

01:22 - 31.423 Yeah.

01:22 - 34.716 And that's the money it takes to run that utility

01:22 - 38.486 that includes all their capital expenditures, but it also includes.

01:22 - 43.391 ROE and their rate of return or return on equity.

01:22 - 45.503 That's all included in that.

01:22 - 49.807 And then the second part of the rate case is how we divvy that cost up.

01:22 - 50.309 Right.

01:22 - 54.336 How big is the pie and then what pieces we're cutting out the short term.

01:22 - 58.149 And there's a there's a, you know, there's an obligation

01:22 - 00.451 to be fair to homeowners and businesses and everything.

01:23 - 01.420 Who's going to pay that rate?

01:23 - 06.214 So in my district, we have had difficulty with our water provider, Veolia.

01:23 - 09.884 And, and some, some discolored water,

01:23 - 15.190 for a long period of time over a widespread area.

01:23 - 20.095 And so and they just recently, January of last year,

01:23 - 24.008 their rates were, they were approved to raise their rates.

01:23 - 28.245 And then so in January of 2025, they're approved to raise their rates.

01:23 - 32.616 And then, you know, throughout the summer we get a substandard

01:23 - 36.654 level of of service with discolored water and things like that.

01:23 - 40.825 So what is a consumer left to do in that case?

01:23 - 45.997 And how does the PUC step in if there is an issue with utility

01:23 - 50.025 or delivery of a specific utility service?

01:23 - 56.240 How can consumers interact with the PUC to make sure that, that that utility

01:23 - 59.643 is holding up its end of the bargain to provide whatever service that their.

01:23 - 02.046 So the best way of letting us know about it,

01:24 - 05.850 whether it's through a complaint process, a formal complaint process, formal

01:24 - 11.012 complaint process, calling us, calling you, letting us know about it,

01:24 - 14.549 if we get enough complaints and I may look at

01:24 - 18.853 or our Bureau of Consumer Services, that's who the complaints come into.

01:24 - 22.566 They may look and say, hey, we we have 100 complaints

01:24 - 25.760 on this water quality, service quality complaints here.

01:24 - 28.606 We better send this to our ironi.

01:24 - 32.700 And then 90, you know, they're a quasi independent bureau.

01:24 - 38.115 They you know, we cannot direct them to investigate and or prosecute.

01:24 - 42.043 They do that on their own because we sit as a judge in those cases.

01:24 - 44.989 So it's a lot of cases like that.

01:24 - 49.651 A lot of times RBC's were for tiny and then I and we'll take it from there.

01:24 - 53.397 When I will say I like to thank all the constituents who reached out.

01:24 - 57.225 We have been engaged in that process, myself, Senator Kim's office.

01:24 - 00.304 I want to give a shout out to JJ because he's been in person

01:25 - 02.006 with us in the meetings in our office.

01:25 - 03.007 So I just want to commend

01:25 - 06.844 the PUC on its action, relative to what's taking place with Veolia.

01:25 - 07.813 Thank you so much.

01:25 - 10.448 Thank you, chairman De Frank. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:25 - 13.608 Thank the gentleman representative all summer.

01:25 - 16.387 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:25 - 19.356 Chairman, glad to have you here this afternoon.

01:25 - 22.026 Last November, your agency presented

01:25 - 26.421 a program called the Large Large Load Model Tariff,

01:25 - 27.999 designed

01:25 - 31.035 to support grid reliability and manage

01:25 - 34.062 the impact of large load customers

01:25 - 37.632 such as data centers on the electric grid.

01:25 - 43.104 Can you provide an explanation of what exactly that is?

01:25 - 46.708 An update on where it stands?

01:25 - 47.886 Sure.

01:25 - 53.248 We, so the update is we hope to have that considered,

01:25 - 57.519 a vote before the full commission sometime in March.

01:25 - 59.630 Hopefully it's in March.

01:25 - 02.724 May be in April, but we're real close to final,

01:26 - 07.505 a final order that it's designed to make sure our existing customers

01:26 - 11.876 are protected from potential stranded costs, from data centers.

01:26 - 16.371 As I talked a lot about this development, this is a great opportunity for us.

01:26 - 20.918 We we should be trying to encourage this development, but we have to do it

01:26 - 25.613 in a responsible manner because it's such a large demand here.

01:26 - 28.325 You know, typical development.

01:26 - 32.554 As I always say, we're not talking about turning lanes and curb cuts here.

01:26 - 37.525 We're talking hundreds of millions of dollars in utility infrastructure.

01:26 - 41.262 So if that load doesn't come in, if that customer doesn't show up,

01:26 - 44.899 ratepayers are on the hook for all that build out

01:26 - 48.036 and they're not getting the benefit of the increased load.

01:26 - 51.448 So that's what we want to do is make sure that customer,

01:26 - 56.244 our existing customers are insulated and protected from any stranded costs.

01:26 - 59.414 One of the things I hope our, tariff does

01:26 - 02.359 is allow for third party build out.

01:27 - 05.386 And what that means is if if a data center needs,

01:27 - 09.591 you know, a substation bill and they need so much transmission lines,

01:27 - 13.228 what happens if the data center actually builds a substation?

01:27 - 16.040 This is about speed the market for them.

01:27 - 18.909 They want to build it as quickly as possible.

01:27 - 22.813 It's in their best interest to make sure it's, you know, it has to comply

01:27 - 26.641 with the energy system it's connecting to, or else it won't work.

01:27 - 30.788 So everything's in their best interest to make sure it happens

01:27 - 32.556 as quickly as possible.

01:27 - 35.583 And the best part for the ratepayer is they're not even touching it.

01:27 - 37.962 They're completely insulated from it.

01:27 - 40.989 We would be one of the first states to do something like that.

01:27 - 44.468 I think that's what's important, though, is protecting existing ratepayers

01:27 - 47.495 from costs that may be happening from these.

01:27 - 50.874 So when exactly would that be taking effect then?

01:27 - 54.545 You said your meeting's in, March, April.

01:27 - 57.281 So we have meetings basically every two weeks.

01:27 - 58.916 Our next meetings next week.

01:27 - 01.852 I do not it's not on the agenda for next week.

01:28 - 03.787 It may be on the following meeting.

01:28 - 06.781 I would hope that our target was the end of March.

01:28 - 08.726 So I don't know if we're going to hit it or not.

01:28 - 10.561 We're. I'm hope if we don't hit it.

01:28 - 12.129 We're very close to it though.

01:28 - 15.399 And again, keep in mind that is only a suggestion.

01:28 - 18.393 That is that is not the weight of law.

01:28 - 22.397 I know that the the General Assembly is considering a bill here.

01:28 - 24.908 There's a bill over here. There's a bill in the Senate.

01:28 - 27.845 If you do that, that will have the weight of law.

01:28 - 30.247 We're only giving a suggestion here.

01:28 - 32.407 Electric company can take it or leave it.

01:28 - 34.152 Okay.

01:28 - 39.590 Switching to another, topic, and some of my fellow colleagues,

01:28 - 43.193 I heard brought this up before, but it is worth repeating,

01:28 - 47.031 especially in my district in Wayne and Pike counties.

01:28 - 50.992 We continue to see power outages linked to dead

01:28 - 54.571 and dying trees since I've taken office.

01:28 - 59.400 And prior to that, I was a township supervisor and I in my local township.

01:28 - 01.278 Same thing.

01:29 - 04.014 I frequently get questions

01:29 - 08.042 from constituents as to why the problem seems to be getting worse.

01:29 - 11.221 Can you tell me, exactly what

01:29 - 15.125 the PUC can do to work with utility companies to address

01:29 - 19.587 the right away issues, which are big maintenance

01:29 - 24.692 and ultimately to ensure grid reliability for our taxpayers?

01:29 - 28.439 Keeping in mind every time the wind, you know, in our

01:29 - 34.369 in my district exceeds 25 miles an hour, there's guaranteed power outages.

01:29 - 39.183 So one of the things we do is we monitor that,

01:29 - 42.886 if you if we know about it, we will get on the utility

01:29 - 44.188 and ask them to clear areas.

01:29 - 48.058 So please, if you see areas, you know, a road location,

01:29 - 51.252 anything like that that's helpful to us and call us about that.

01:29 - 53.297 If we get enough of these complaints.

01:29 - 55.299 Again, this goes to Ironi.

01:29 - 57.468 It's a quality of service issue.

01:29 - 01.062 And then the Commission will do a formal investigation of the utility.

01:30 - 05.776 If they find that, you know, filing

01:30 - 09.646 a complaint is warranted, they will again, we don't control that.

01:30 - 11.615 That's controlled at the bureau level.

01:30 - 14.642 And then that comes up to us to adjudicate.

01:30 - 17.154 Okay, I actually have a report with me.

01:30 - 20.381 I was wondering if I might be able to hand that in afterwards, please.

01:30 - 21.025 Thank you.

01:30 - 25.129 Representative, any assistance you can give us with off

01:30 - 27.722 right of way tree legislation.

01:30 - 30.634 Thank you.

01:30 - 31.835 Thank the gentleman.

01:30 - 34.671 Chairman Drusy

01:30 - 36.073 you, Chairman Harris.

01:30 - 40.477 Before I get into my, questions and comments, representative Metzger,

01:30 - 44.748 who is the chair of the, Consumer Protection Technology and Utilities.

01:30 - 48.552 Committee, was not able to attend today, but he does have a written question

01:30 - 51.121 that he would like a response to related to the PUC

01:30 - 53.123 role in the electric choice marketplace.

01:30 - 55.259 So I'll give this to you when we conclude here.

01:30 - 56.560 Thank you. Yes.

01:30 - 00.288 So a lot of discussion about base load energy.

01:31 - 03.300 You know, electricity prices

01:31 - 06.570 are simply absorbed absorbed it right now exorbitant.

01:31 - 09.106 And you stated simply it's a supply.

01:31 - 10.774 And demand issue.

01:31 - 14.469 And I know there's a lot of talk about data centers and the need for,

01:31 - 17.548 you know, increased energy, the demand that will come from data centers.

01:31 - 20.708 But I think they're sort of the scapegoat right now.

01:31 - 23.987 We need to look back at what caused this problem.

01:31 - 28.382 And that was bad policy or the regional greenhouse gas Initiative

01:31 - 31.495 and really unfair subsidies in the marketplace

01:31 - 34.264 that put base load energy out of business.

01:31 - 36.133 I saw that firsthand with Homer City.

01:31 - 39.336 We saw that in Chiswick and other power plants here

01:31 - 42.673 in Pennsylvania and the lack of new generation.

01:31 - 46.176 So, so clearly, this has been a problem that's been building for years.

01:31 - 49.170 And you yourself said, you know, we told you so.

01:31 - 50.681 And so here we are today.

01:31 - 52.583 So how do we get out of this problem.

01:31 - 52.851 Right.

01:31 - 56.019 That is to build more base load energy and natural

01:31 - 59.614 gas is the the most viable quick solution.

01:31 - 04.761 So within my, area back home, not specifically in my district, but

01:32 - 09.233 but in and around it, we have the Keystone and Conemaugh generating stations.

01:32 - 10.667 I'm sure you're familiar.

01:32 - 14.905 They were set to be retired, but the owners have now reconsidered

01:32 - 17.140 that they're looking for the option to continue,

01:32 - 20.577 which I think is something that that, should be supported.

01:32 - 24.405 3.4GW generation capacity into the grid.

01:32 - 28.376 They are a reliable base load source of power.

01:32 - 31.855 And really, you know, with the PJM auctions predicting

01:32 - 35.683 the shortfalls of base load generation, everything we discussed here today,

01:32 - 37.861 would you agree that secure

01:32 - 41.899 in a commitment to keep these plants open would be one of the most cost

01:32 - 45.393 effective and efficient ways to cover this base load shortfall?

01:32 - 48.372 So I think we're going to see what happens with those plants.

01:32 - 50.107 Doe has been putting out.

01:32 - 52.876 The executive orders there.

01:32 - 54.378 We have one on Eddie Stone.

01:32 - 55.579 It's a gas plant.

01:32 - 58.348 It's not specifically yes or no.

01:32 - 01.218 Would that not be a cost effective way?

01:33 - 03.987 I think we should put as many watch on a grid as we possibly can.

01:33 - 06.023 So that means keeping them on then. Absolutely.

01:33 - 08.025 Okay. Yes. Yes, yes. Okay.

01:33 - 09.459 And then just a quick follow up on that.

01:33 - 11.361 If we can succeed in keeping these plants

01:33 - 15.198 open, retaining their reliable and cost effective generation capacity,

01:33 - 18.993 what would that mean to electric bills for ratepayers across the state

01:33 - 21.972 if we keep them open? Yes.

01:33 - 25.742 Again I think that, you know, we need them open and then some.

01:33 - 27.844 I mean this is a supply demand issue.

01:33 - 30.581 But to be clear though, it's beyond supply demand.

01:33 - 32.916 We're seeing the cost of energy increase as well.

01:33 - 35.252 So capacity markets increase.

01:33 - 38.889 When you look at the last Market Monitor report, the actual larger

01:33 - 41.258 increases from the cost of power. Right.

01:33 - 45.486 And that's why I say that, you know, gas is the lowest cost new power,

01:33 - 48.565 dispatchable new power.

01:33 - 52.736 There is nuclear is lower cost, but we don't see anyone

01:33 - 54.071 building a nuclear plant,

01:33 - 57.431 particularly in a restructured state, because there's a lot of risk.

01:33 - 01.636 But essentially, though, if it's a supply and demand issue, keeping them on line,

01:34 - 05.582 adding those gigawatts, maintaining we need more supply, right?

01:34 - 06.984 It would help lower the cost.

01:34 - 09.686 And part of that is right. Not losing supply.

01:34 - 10.787 Okay, good.

01:34 - 12.155 Just a quick clarification.

01:34 - 15.182 Rep Nelson was talking about the solar credits.

01:34 - 19.020 And it was Kim mentioned that that's a

01:34 - 21.698 credit is a megawatt, right?

01:34 - 24.601 That's what you said. Credit is a unit of energy.

01:34 - 29.664 Is that is that utilized in Pennsylvania or can that megawatt credit,

01:34 - 32.867 be utilized in another state?

01:34 - 36.980 We closed the borders.

01:34 - 39.182 I'm pretty sure I was.

01:34 - 44.378 Pennsylvania's are just you actually let me not speak for other states.

01:34 - 47.658 But I think so.

01:34 - 50.360 Solar we did close the border for solar.

01:34 - 54.464 There's other credits in tier one, so it depends on what credit it is.

01:34 - 59.293 Remember, we closed the border for tier two credits across the entire tier.

01:34 - 01.271 We did not close the border for tier one.

01:35 - 04.298 We only closed the for solar as we have the solar carve out.

01:35 - 04.742 Okay.

01:35 - 08.812 Can we get some additional clarification on that because we're getting different,

01:35 - 12.773 information on how these solar credits can be used when they can be used.

01:35 - 14.151 Is it current megawatts?

01:35 - 17.054 Is it megawatts from the, you know, a few months ago.

01:35 - 20.915 Happy to you know, our staff happy to get

01:35 - 24.027 and then just one, budget related question.

01:35 - 28.365 Related specifically to your your specific budget, does your, fiscal

01:35 - 31.692 year 2627 budget include enough funding

01:35 - 34.738 to cover the requirements of the passage?

01:35 - 36.006 I'll, I'll get specific

01:35 - 39.910 the following requirements of the passage of act 45 of 2025.

01:35 - 44.081 Specifically, do you have enough engineering and economic staff to perform

01:35 - 47.084 these forensic audits related to load forecasting,

01:35 - 51.278 or will you require additional funding or outside consultants to review the data

01:35 - 55.792 and ensure Pennsylvania ratepayers are not paying to overbuild infrastructure

01:35 - 59.019 infrastructure based on speculative data center projections?

01:35 - 03.233 So we were already we already had a consultant in place.

01:36 - 07.604 Whenever you guys had passed that we were already looking at load forecasting.

01:36 - 10.240 Okay, we will have to staff up.

01:36 - 14.702 We are trying to re reposition, reallocate positions.

01:36 - 19.382 So we're actually looking at cut in our offices, the five commissioner

01:36 - 24.078 offices and repurposing positions in each commissioner's office out of the agency.

01:36 - 26.823 So you may in fact need additional staff.

01:36 - 28.825 We may okay. We're not sure though.

01:36 - 30.827 Okay. And then just a quick follow up on that.

01:36 - 32.062 Can you cover the cost

01:36 - 36.190 to create the required permit tracking system for the PUC applications

01:36 - 39.936 and permits for the regulated utilities, and the issuance

01:36 - 44.407 of certificates of public convenience, as well as other utility determinations?

01:36 - 46.376 So I'll have to get back to you on those costs.

01:36 - 50.037 We are starting to come into compliance with that permit tracking.

01:36 - 51.681 I will say that

01:36 - 55.819 a lot of that stuff does not apply to us because we're an adjudicatory agency.

01:36 - 58.846 So it's not we're not DPI issuing a permit.

01:36 - 01.792 Some of these are contested proceedings.

01:37 - 05.986 And so they go before ALJ and go before judges and they're litigated.

01:37 - 09.990 It's not necessarily an agency issuing a permit, okay.

01:37 - 14.137 Because the legislation puts certificates of public convenience in as a permit.

01:37 - 19.142 So that's that's the contested proceedings that I don't know that we've ever given

01:37 - 20.577 a certificate when that was.

01:37 - 22.746 I'm sure there are. But all right. Well, thank you for that.

01:37 - 24.314 I appreciate you being here today.

01:37 - 30.053 Your candor, I think we can all agree that, affordable electricity will help

01:37 - 34.291 build our economy grow our businesses, help our families, make ends meet.

01:37 - 38.061 So we need to do everything we can to make sure we are increasing that

01:37 - 41.364 base load energy, not implementing policy that threatens that.

01:37 - 44.100 Like like the lightning plan, pacer and press.

01:37 - 48.004 I think across the board, the building trades and the energy producers

01:37 - 54.277 see that as as Reggie 2.0 and simply another shot at energy production.

01:37 - 58.415 So, I think we need to really work together, moving forward

01:37 - 01.751 to make sure we're doing the best for Pennsylvania related to energy production.

01:38 - 03.935 So thank you again for being here. Thank you. Chairman.

01:38 - 10.493 Thank you gentlemen, and thank the commissioners.

01:38 - 13.897 With that, we want to thank the members

01:38 - 17.124 of the Pennsylvania Utilities Commission for being here with us.

01:38 - 18.668 And for answering questions.

01:38 - 22.897 And thank you to the members, for, good week,

01:38 - 27.835 good bipartisan week of budget hearings this week.

01:38 - 31.272 We will be back here next week

01:38 - 34.217 for our final week of budget hearings.

01:38 - 38.345 And so we will be back here in the chamber Monday

01:38 - 41.324 at 10 a.m., where we will be joined

01:38 - 44.351 by the Department of Transportation.

01:38 - 46.162 See everybody on Monday.

01:38 - 54.186 This hearing is now adjourned.