00:03 - Department of Correction and the board of.

00:05 - Probation and parole. Before we get started.

00:07 - Chairman Srouji, in the introductory comments. Yes.

00:10 - Thank you. Chairman Harris.

00:11 - Good afternoon everyone. Appreciate you being here.

00:14 - I know you've had a long day already, so we'll get started.

00:17 - Just to set the stage, I like to put the numbers out there

00:20 - so people who are listening understand

00:21 - what we're talking about related to the budget.

00:23 - The governor is proposing a total general fund spending amount of 3.38 billion

00:28 - for the fiscal year 2627, which is the budget we're talking about

00:32 - today, an overall increase of 142.5 million, or 4.4% over the current year.

00:38 - We recognize that the Department of Corrections is about 6.3%

00:43 - of the spend in the current budget proposal.

00:46 - And then I think, you know,

00:48 - we're going to get through a lot of questions here this afternoon.

00:50 - We'll try to be expeditious as much as possible.

00:53 - Obviously, last year we talked a lot about the closures,

00:56 - and we'll be revisiting that again this year.

00:59 - Of importance to me is always the safety of our corrections officers.

01:02 - As you all know, I have sy Pine Grove about two miles from my house.

01:06 - I hear the siren every day at 1130.

01:09 - And so I appreciate the role that that, the corrections

01:12 - officers play in our community.

01:14 - But there are also other issues with safety in our correctional system.

01:19 - And we'll dig into all that this afternoon.

01:22 - So thank you all for being here.

01:25 - Thank you.

01:27 - Testifiers, if you please, stand so we can swear you in and get started.

01:31 - Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give is the truth?

01:35 - The whole truth so help you God? Thank you.

01:38 - You can sit.

01:39 - You may be seated. I just want to make it mention.

01:42 - In the middle of the table is our timekeeper.

01:44 - Every member will have five minutes to ask questions

01:47 - when they, begin with their question.

01:49 - You will see the light turn green.

01:51 - That means that they have five minutes

01:52 - to ask questions at 30s to light will turn yellow.

01:56 - That means that there's 30s left.

01:58 - We ask that you wrap up, your answer.

02:01 - And red means that the time has concluded.

02:04 - We want to get on.

02:05 - We want to get as many members,

02:09 - in with their questions as possible.

02:13 - And I think that's it.

02:14 - We are glad to be joined.

02:16 - Of course, by Secretary Henry from Department of Corrections

02:20 - and Chairman Fox, Board of Probation and Parole.

02:25 - So either of you have introductory comments or you want to go straight in?

02:28 - Perfect.

02:29 - Representative Corrine,

02:32 - you are first.

02:36 - Thank you. Chairman.

02:37 - Thank you. Secretary. Great to see you all here.

02:40 - Last year we talked about starting with the co-pays for for health.

02:43 - I'm a nurse practitioner.

02:45 - Co-pays for pay for me to be able to see health care providers.

02:50 - And we discussed,

02:52 - the $5 co-pay was intended to sort of manage

02:55 - the flow of patients, inmates being seen.

02:59 - So it didn't overwhelm the system.

03:02 - So 1 or 2 just sort of ask

03:05 - now salvation that the the pay is about.

03:08 - I think it's a $0.23 an hour ish for, for for inmates.

03:13 - So for a $5 co-pay, that would probably be

03:17 - at least a couple of days of work for them, maybe more.

03:22 - Have you all looked at

03:23 - what it would cost, what appropriations would be needed

03:27 - in order to be able to meet the demand?

03:31 - Of inmates seeking medical attention?

03:36 - So I think the increase that we're going to see is with practitioners.

03:39 - So it would be probably 15 plus million dollars

03:43 - because as we talked last year, I the challenge was

03:47 - we saw an increase between 25 and 42%

03:50 - in, individuals using medical.

03:54 - And at one facility, 67% of the inmates

03:57 - filed sick call slips or submitted sick slips in a week.

04:00 - So it did overwhelm our providers.

04:03 - So it would be a significant cost to bring on more providers.

04:06 - In order to do that, I will tell you, we have researched other states.

04:10 - A lot of states are where we are at $5, some less,

04:15 - some are actually more, and they don't even pay inmates.

04:18 - Our pay is it starts at $0.23, but it goes up to $0.61.

04:23 - So those are just obviously some factors.

04:25 - But as we talked last year, it was a real concern

04:28 - because people weren't able to be seen between the 28, 48 hours.

04:32 - We had

04:34 - habitual people obviously submitting sick slips,

04:37 - but the practitioners couldn't get to the folks who needed chronic care.

04:41 - And that truly individuals who needed that care.

04:44 - And so that's that's one of our biggest concerns.

04:46 - I am aware of another state that said the misuse in medical

04:50 - because they eliminated their copay, and it's a state pretty near to us.

04:55 - And they said it is just made their entire system unmanageable.

04:58 - So what I don't want to do is get to that point without obviously.

05:02 - And they even said we don't really have a clear plan in place.

05:05 - So that's something that we would have to really look at.

05:08 - But it would be a cost for more practitioners.

05:12 - Do you have any idea of

05:14 - so because it's clearly it's going to be a barrier, right.

05:18 - Because of that, if you're talking about 2 to 3 days of work to to potentially

05:23 - maybe only two days of work or a day, maybe a day and a half

05:26 - to be able to afford it.

05:27 - Do you have any estimate of what the costs are for those cases that are missed?

05:32 - Because because I'll tell you, as a nurse practitioner, when I see patients

05:36 - and there's a there's a cost to seek care, a lot of patients say, you know what,

05:41 - I can't really afford the $25 it is to see the physical therapist.

05:44 - So I'm not going to see them.

05:45 - I can't afford the $50 to see the specialist, so I'm not going to see him.

05:49 - Do you have any idea of what the cost is on

05:53 - on your budget for patients that have to be rushed to emergency room

05:56 - because they weren't able to get that, that care?

06:00 - Yeah, that's fair.

06:00 - But understand when we did not when we had during Covid

06:05 - first we we waived any flu like symptoms.

06:08 - We wanted to see those people. We want to take care of them.

06:10 - We want to quarantine, protect the staff and all the inmate population.

06:14 - Then at some point, the idea was to give a free copay out.

06:17 - So we, as the secretary said, we've been down that road

06:20 - and then you start to see where you're really sick.

06:23 - People are the people that come to chronic care clinics

06:25 - for whatever ailment they're determined to have.

06:27 - Chronic, let's say it's high blood pressure.

06:30 - You have a medical background, so you will know better than me, but

06:33 - that's one of our chronic care clinics.

06:35 - But once you're in a data with sick call for free

06:37 - because there's no copay, you are missing your chronic care clinics.

06:42 - You can't get to them.

06:43 - We had a backlog of chronic care clinic clinics.

06:45 - We had a backlog of physicals.

06:47 - And some of that is diagnostic testing to happened,

06:49 - especially over the over 40 population has additional tests.

06:53 - Testing will be done.

06:53 - So you start to you're really compromising.

06:56 - You're really you're truly ill people because you are,

06:59 - you know, inundated with, to some extent, frivolous calls.

07:04 - Right.

07:04 - Is there a happy medium though, where maybe because as a legislator,

07:08 - I mean, if if the cope if you, you sort of do the ratio of what it would cost

07:11 - would probably be over $1,000 for me to see a care provider.

07:15 - Well, I would say this there.

07:17 - I understand every medical plan, just about every medical plan

07:20 - that I'm aware of, including Medicaid does have a have a co-pay policy.

07:24 - Medicaid in Pennsylvania has a co-pay policy.

07:26 - It might be for infirmary care.

07:28 - That's one of the co-pays.

07:30 - Inmates only get charged for a few things when they're coming in the door.

07:33 - We collected $526,000 in copay this past year.

07:38 - Beyond the inmate payroll of 16.5 million.

07:42 - There's also friends and family, and other people donate inmates

07:46 - electronic transfers for funds to inmates is almost 100 million a year.

07:50 - So there's a lot of money flowing

07:52 - beyond the inmate employment into inmates accounts.

07:56 - With that, 526 we collect the inmates spent $56 million

08:00 - in commissary, even though they're getting three meals a day.

08:03 - The basics that inmates can be charged for our initial initial sick calls,

08:07 - where it's not deemed to be a chronic care issue

08:11 - and they want medication, the provider might, provide that,

08:15 - but that could be sports injuries, inmate assaults.

08:18 - Those are really the primary things for copays,

08:21 - any diagnostics, any physicals, chronic care,

08:25 - all those things prenatal post mental health, mental health,

08:28 - all those things are not charged a copay under our plan.

08:32 - It's for that smaller group.

08:33 - As the secretary said, we get inundated with frivolous sick

08:37 - calls, and you're trying to make sure you have proper,

08:40 - timely access to care and manage the care for that population.

08:45 - And I and I think it's it's very difficult not to have a copay

08:49 - where something's free, where people then could abuse the system.

08:53 - Thank you.

08:53 - Thank you. Chairman.

08:54 - Thank the gentleman.

08:55 - Representative Costello.

08:57 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

08:59 - Secretary Harry, I have a question for you.

09:03 - At last year's hearings, we had learned about the closures.

09:06 - The possible closures.

09:07 - They didn't happen yet of, the kind of boot camp and Rockville.

09:12 - And it was shortly after those hearings that the closures did take place

09:15 - and the announcement was made.

09:17 - I shouldn't say the closures took place,

09:18 - but the announcement was was made at that time.

09:21 - Can you please update us right now on where we are

09:24 - with the two institutions on the closures, the status of them?

09:28 - Yes, absolutely.

09:30 - Excuse me.

09:31 - We actually are nearing the very end of staff transfers.

09:36 - All inmates have been transferred out of both facilities.

09:38 - They transfer this month.

09:40 - And as of the end of this week, the vast majority of staff members

09:45 - will be transferring to their respective, new receiving facilities.

09:50 - We are keeping a handful of staff back.

09:53 - Whether it's maintenance staff and of course, ironing out logistics

09:57 - with surplus and things or inventories in surplus and those types of things.

10:01 - But as far as the actual facilities, they will be empty

10:04 - by the end of the month.

10:05 - How many employees were at each

10:08 - were there and how many were at each of those facilities?

10:11 - And have there been any retirements or are you moving all of them now

10:15 - or where they're all going?

10:16 - So retirements we had about 134 retirements out of how many people.

10:21 - When we the total number I know we did

10:25 - 734 transfers of staff, but

10:28 - it started off as

10:31 - it started off a little higher than that.

10:33 - We'll get you the number.

10:34 - But that retirement number wasn't unusual from February 2024 to February 2025,

10:40 - we saw a hundred retirements from both of those facilities.

10:43 - So it was just slightly higher, but we knew that there were about 162

10:47 - that were eligible for retirement.

10:48 - So that number wasn't abnormal.

10:51 - What was your other question

10:55 - at each of the total number?

10:57 - Well, the total number we used at seven 3734.

11:00 - And then you had 130 retirements. Yes.

11:01 - We started at 800 and 857 staff.

11:06 - Now some transfer to other agencies,

11:10 - some transferred within our agency.

11:12 - But once we started the movement of staff.

11:14 - Okay.

11:15 - And then as far as the boot camp goes, and I learned this last year that it was,

11:21 - it was a great facility.

11:22 - I mean, you, put through a lot of the inmates and successful stories.

11:27 - Very successful.

11:28 - Where are you planning?

11:31 - What are you planning to do with that programing that happened at Kayenta?

11:35 - Did you move it to all the different facilities,

11:38 - or is it just one other facility that you have now?

11:41 - So the boot camp,

11:42 - the actual boot camp was the smallest program that they had there.

11:46 - I don't know if we talked about it last year, but they only graduated

11:49 - around 108 individuals from the actual boot camp.

11:52 - In 2025, they only graduated 64.

11:55 - So we've seen a real decline in inmates who want to do the boot camp,

11:59 - probably for the physical component.

12:01 - And if we're being honest, the state drug treatment program, that's the

12:05 - that was the vast majority of individuals that were at Kahana.

12:09 - So we already had state

12:11 - drug treatment at Cambridge Springs for our women incarcerated women.

12:15 - And we had it at FCI Hartsdale and or FCI Laurel Highlands.

12:19 - So we expanded all those sites.

12:21 - And then Hillsdale also is doing state drug treatment.

12:24 - So how they'll also take the boot camp and Cambridge Springs will to boot camp.

12:28 - How many of the employees from K Hannah moved to the various other facilities that

12:33 - you just mentioned?

12:35 - We can get you the exact number,

12:36 - but we actually did have several boot camp staff go to Hillsdale

12:41 - because, that's one of the closer facilities

12:44 - so they'll be able to actually still participate in do they Cross-train

12:48 - do you question for job training?

12:50 - And we did, trainings in the transition with both staff from

12:54 - Kahana came to their staff from Cambridge Springs, came to,

12:58 - Kawana, Hillsdale staff.

13:00 - We actually did two separate trainings and we had to get all the staff on board.

13:04 - And then we had actually had their first graduate there.

13:08 - I'm sorry, Cambridge Springs Cambridge Springs.

13:10 - Okay.

13:11 - And, I mean, obviously you're closing down two facilities.

13:16 - And you said you are keeping back

13:18 - some staff, very, very minimal staff.

13:21 - And for how long do you plan on keeping them there? Well,

13:25 - we're looking at obviously things like inventories and equipment.

13:28 - We have to move that.

13:29 - Our Dcnr will actually we had an MoU with Dcnr.

13:33 - So they will actually take over the property.

13:35 - Hannah.

13:36 - So we still have to run the utility or the wastewater

13:40 - wastewater treatment plant.

13:41 - And so we need to keep those staff in place until they can hire,

13:45 - additional staff.

13:47 - And that's the property that's owned by Dcnr for the Kahana facility.

13:50 - Okay.

13:52 - All right. Great. I see my time is up.

13:54 - I had five other questions, but that's okay.

13:56 - Thank you.

13:59 - Let me thank the gentlelady,

14:01 - representative Fleming.

14:04 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

14:05 - Good afternoon, doctor Harry.

14:07 - And, the rest of you, so the first bill

14:11 - that Governor Shapiro signed into law was act one of 2023,

14:15 - which provided for breast cancer screenings,

14:18 - for, high risk individuals.

14:21 - And so we we made that accommodation largely

14:25 - on a bipartisan basis for, for women in the general public.

14:29 - And it leads me to my questioning, around, how we do breast cancer

14:34 - screenings for, women who are currently incarcerated in the doc system.

14:39 - So, I just had a couple of questions on that,

14:42 - dovetailing on the health care issue that my, my colleague rep Con brought up.

14:46 - So, does the department currently provide 3D mammography

14:50 - to inmates who are incarcerated within the DoD Doc system?

14:55 - We provide both 2D and 3D. Okay.

14:58 - And, what's the

15:02 - has the department requested

15:04 - or allocated funding in the budget or prior budgets?

15:08 - To expand this access to 3D mammography?

15:11 - And what goes into that decision in terms of,

15:15 - who gets what type of, breast cancer screening?

15:19 - So both Cambridge Springs and Muncie have a van

15:22 - that comes to the facility to do the annual mammograms for the women.

15:27 - We the this is all work contracted through our vendor, our current medical vendor.

15:32 - And absolutely, if someone needs additional follow up,

15:37 - my my mammograms are still 2D.

15:39 - So as you know, in the community, there's we're seeing a shift, but yet

15:43 - both are still considered effective, for screening of breast cancer.

15:48 - But we also know there's some studies out there.

15:51 - The American Cancer Society said that they there's a large study

15:54 - to look at the effectiveness of, of both 2D and 3D,

15:58 - the American College of Radiology, our, our medical directors

16:02 - have actually looked into this because I'm glad you brought this up.

16:05 - This is something that we want to make sure

16:07 - that we're giving our women the appropriate screening for this.

16:11 - So we will certainly look at it, talk to our vendors.

16:15 - Obviously, if there's a concern, they can send them for additional testing,

16:19 - which may or may not include 3D, mammography, depending on what tests

16:24 - they need.

16:24 - But we will absolutely work closely with our vendor to ensure

16:27 - that they get proper screening.

16:29 - But I do think we're

16:31 - folks are interested in seeing what the research starts to show.

16:34 - And if the shift ends up going,

16:36 - the standard of care is all 3D, then that's what we'll go to.

16:41 - Okay.

16:41 - And and I know, like within the general public, it's usually an age threshold

16:46 - or a family history that indicates, sort of the metrics

16:50 - for, for when, individuals make the choice to get screened.

16:53 - What what does your, what does your medical plan say, in terms

16:58 - of, who who is entitled to, mammography screening or breast cancer screening?

17:03 - Who within the Doc system, is it an age threshold?

17:06 - Do you look at family history or how do you determine that?

17:09 - How do you make that determination? Right?

17:11 - I'm sure our clinicians look at all of that.

17:15 - Yeah.

17:16 - For right for gynecological exams as well as mammograms.

17:20 - We can get back to you on some of the specifics.

17:22 - But yes, that's something our practitioners would certainly.

17:24 - Okay.

17:25 - And then that given that African American women experience

17:28 - higher breast cancer mortality and later stage diagnosis diagnoses,

17:31 - how does the department ensure that screening practices align

17:34 - with health equity principles?

17:36 - Are you, how are you making that determination

17:39 - that folks are getting the screening they need when they need it?

17:41 - Our clinicians, really do a really nice job

17:45 - when they evaluate whether it's our male population or our females.

17:49 - They understand the, ethnicity concerns, racial concerns

17:55 - with regard to various illnesses and high risk for certain populations.

18:00 - And so they do a really nice job even when they, they research

18:03 - cases and, and look at treatments for individuals.

18:06 - That's something that they're, pretty skilled at.

18:09 - We have some doctors

18:10 - that have been with us for quite some time, actually, in our system.

18:13 - So they know our patients and they know our population pretty well.

18:16 - Okay. Well, thank you very much.

18:18 - I really do appreciate this.

18:19 - It's an issue that's obviously, you know, we we passed the law,

18:23 - like I said, on a bipartisan basis, to ensure

18:25 - that the general public has access to this.

18:27 - So it's equally important that those who are, you know, even if they are,

18:31 - serving time for, for crime, also have access to, to adequate medical care.

18:36 - So thank you so much. Absolutely.

18:38 - Thank the gentleman, Representative Rigby.

18:41 - Thank you, chairman. Thank you. Panel.

18:42 - The doc he's been had been dealing with a stubbornly high vacancy rate

18:47 - among correction officers for some time now.

18:49 - Although it's my understanding that there's been some recent improvements

18:53 - to changes previously made that we discussed were lowering the minimum wage,

18:58 - for a corrections officer trainee to 18

19:00 - and hiring people from out of state for these doc jobs.

19:04 - Last year, you indicated lowering the minimum wage

19:06 - attracted a significant number of additional employees.

19:09 - While hiring out of state was not quite as impactful.

19:13 - Do you see any updates on these changes,

19:15 - and do you still consider both initiatives a success?

19:19 - Absolutely.

19:20 - I'm happy to report that we've seen an increase.

19:22 - We hired 53 out of state residents.

19:25 - So you're right.

19:26 - I think last year was in the single digits.

19:29 - We just didn't see the needle move.

19:30 - But I think now that our recruitment

19:32 - and retention team has gotten out there, that's been really important.

19:35 - I actually don't have the number for the under 20 ones that I should have.

19:38 - So I,

19:40 - I'm oh 218, 218 under 21.

19:44 - Here's what I will tell you

19:46 - is we've seen a better retention with our under 21 hires.

19:50 - 35% of our trainees leave within the first nine months

19:54 - with our, under 21 individuals.

19:57 - They 21% leave.

20:00 - So we've seen better retention rates with them.

20:03 - So both initiatives have been worked very well with us.

20:06 - And just a quick sidebar, our recruitment and retention team

20:09 - attended like seven 752 events last year.

20:14 - They're out in Pennsylvania all over.

20:16 - We've made some great strides in how we process individuals to come in.

20:21 - Once the dust settles from the closure, we expect to be around a 3% vacancy rate.

20:26 - Right now, we're about under 400.

20:29 - Our highest was to 32 or I'm sorry, 930 950.

20:34 - So we've made significant improvements with our recruitment efforts.

20:38 - And really now our focus needs to be on retention.

20:41 - So, we're really proud of the work that our recruitment and retention, that's

20:44 - that's good news. That's good to hear.

20:46 - If I can just follow up with, Representative Costello's questions

20:49 - about the vacancies, and we look at Rock view and the 5700 acres

20:53 - that surrounded what now happens to that piece of property.

20:57 - You know, Dcnr has the other place, but

21:00 - but what happens to Rockville and that acreage?

21:03 - So right now we're still in the process.

21:06 - Once all the staff transfer out by the end of the month,

21:09 - we are still doing inventories and reallocating equipment.

21:13 - So whether it's security equipment, food service, medical equipment,

21:16 - all of the the items that are still usable for other facilities.

21:20 - So we have tours scheduled for those facilities to come look at the items.

21:24 - That's going to take a few months.

21:25 - So it's going to be a little bit of time before

21:28 - we're able to turn the facility over to the Department of General Services.

21:32 - But those are just some of the things that we have to do in the interim

21:35 - before we can get that facility ready to be turned over and mothballed.

21:40 - I would add that

21:41 - part of that fits, the Rockville area the doc is going to have to keep.

21:45 - There's a reservoir across the road.

21:47 - There's the the, forestry camp, the farm program.

21:52 - Those pieces are going to stay. So most likely. Right.

21:54 - We're seeing Rockville sits.

21:56 - That property is going to stay maintained by the doc.

21:59 - Now, we're not going to keep the upkeep of that facility.

22:02 - We're going to have to mothball it and potentially cold mothball it.

22:05 - But we will continue the fire suppression and and surveillance of it.

22:09 - But there are other pieces of the property.

22:11 - Once security operationally, they can do an assessment

22:14 - to see if there's interest in that.

22:16 - We might be able to turn over to DGS, Bureau of Real Estate.

22:19 - We would do so.

22:20 - But I think it's going to be a few months before we have that completed.

22:23 - I appreciate that.

22:24 - Thank you very much. Thank you.

22:27 - Thank you. Gentlemen.

22:28 - Representative Webster.

22:34 - Thank you, Mr.

22:34 - Chairman.

22:35 - Doctor Harry, thanks for bringing the whole team.

22:37 - I think you're probably familiar that I have introduced

22:41 - a number of bills recently around incarcerated veterans.

22:45 - And I know this was and I have had different discussions

22:49 - around that in particular, one bill, House Bill 866, was,

22:54 - passed with a large bi bipartisan majority here in the House.

22:58 - And it requires some our services as a as a veterans

23:04 - completed his time in the Department of Corrections,

23:07 - making sure that they can be successful when they return to their civilian life

23:10 - and regain some of the veterans benefits that that are also available to them

23:15 - and their families.

23:16 - I would expect the costs for something like that.

23:19 - Word and budget hearing right.

23:21 - Probably don't require their own line item,

23:23 - but if you have a moment to talk about, how we might roll those out,

23:28 - how we,

23:29 - you know, we'll get it through the Senate and then and then be able to talk about

23:33 - how to how to support those veterans who have served their time.

23:37 - Excellent question.

23:38 - And we're really proud of the work that we've done, not only around

23:41 - incarcerated, incarcerated veterans, but also our staff.

23:45 - So with regard to incarcerated veterans, we have about, I want to say,

23:49 - 22, 2300 veterans total,

23:52 - but about 613 are in our veterans service units.

23:55 - I don't know if you had an offer to so.

23:57 - So Sci Phoenix used to be a wonder district.

23:59 - Okay. We we changed that. Right.

24:02 - So that's where I am most excellent.

24:05 - And as you know, they they just do an amazing job on those units.

24:09 - But even if a veteran isn't residing on one of these units, we have reentry

24:14 - services offices that work very closely with all of our incarcerated individuals.

24:19 - But we've done a lot of work around pension and service connected disability

24:23 - exams.

24:24 - Now we bring the equipment in and we're able to do the testing inside

24:29 - with the veterans to hopefully start that process so that when they get out,

24:33 - if they're entitled to service connected disability or disability, not funds.

24:39 - What's the word I'm looking for benefits.

24:41 - Thank you.

24:42 - Service connected benefits.

24:43 - Then they can get that ball rolling.

24:46 - And in advance.

24:47 - We have social workers that work with our staff.

24:49 - One of the shoes actually has a social worker assigned to the unit.

24:53 - So we do a lot of work around our incarcerated veterans.

24:57 - And yeah, support certainly support that that and appreciate that.

25:00 - What we're asking you to do a little bit more.

25:02 - But I think I think it's for a pretty good cause.

25:05 - And you know what I forgot to mention?

25:06 - We just kicked off our veteran,

25:08 - resource agents on the parole side because that was a gap for us.

25:11 - We recognized, like, hey, we're doing all this stuff on the inside.

25:14 - We need to do a better job in the outside.

25:16 - We kicked it off in June of last year.

25:19 - And so they're do an amazing job running groups.

25:22 - Deputy Carpenter and executive Deputy Evans of

25:25 - and able to attend some of this group.

25:27 - So I think we're on the same side on this one I appreciate it.

25:29 - Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

25:34 - Thanks, gentleman.

25:35 - Representative. All summer.

25:38 - Thank you, Mr.

25:38 - Chairman.

25:40 - Secretary Harry, thank you for being here today.

25:43 - And, everybody else, thank you for your time here this afternoon.

25:49 - The budget information

25:50 - that you provided, the committee indicates that inmates randomly tested

25:56 - positive for drug and alcohol use

26:00 - while in prison has begun to increase

26:03 - after falling to an all time low recently.

26:07 - And, my my question

26:11 - really is, you're combating this

26:14 - by bringing on, canine, dogs

26:19 - and by using drones.

26:22 - How how effective are they?

26:27 - Actually,

26:28 - I'll back up and then I can, turn it over to Doctor Zaken as well.

26:32 - In addition to our random tests, we've done a really great job

26:36 - at focusing on targeted, urinalysis and targeted cell searches.

26:41 - We have a strong analytics division, so we get a lot of intelligence

26:45 - around that topic.

26:47 - And so we're able to really identify

26:50 - where folks are using, to combat it.

26:53 - Yes, we use canine.

26:55 - We do instant institution wide searches, roughly 3 to 4 a year.

26:59 - Every institution does searches in their facility.

27:02 - So we do a lot of in-house stuff.

27:04 - But deputy, they can can also go a little bit further about some of our drug.

27:09 - Yeah.

27:09 - And if I could add to that as well, what do you think the,

27:14 - the overall increase is due to as well?

27:18 - I think the drugs we're dealing with

27:20 - in, correctional facilities, they are much different.

27:24 - What we dealt with 20, ten years ago, you know, now,

27:27 - drugs are primarily what we're finding in institutions or on paper.

27:34 - You know, they're synthetics.

27:35 - This isn't your days of your marijuana

27:39 - or drugs that you can see now.

27:42 - You can look at a piece of paper,

27:44 - and it's a ton of drugs, and you don't even know it's drugs at all.

27:48 - So it's a whole different

27:51 - arena than what

27:53 - we have usually are, what we have dealt with in the past,

27:57 - and that has contributed to the rise in drugs within institutions.

28:01 - Now, you know, drugs can be mailed it.

28:04 - They can be sending in packages and, and that's what we're constantly

28:08 - looking a new technology, new ways to detect and be able to combat that.

28:14 - Coming in

28:16 - and just for clarification, we actually did

28:18 - see a decrease in our positive urinalysis,

28:22 - a 1% decrease, but not to take away because, yes, that's

28:26 - that's what every correctional facility faces with contraband.

28:30 - Okay.

28:30 - All right.

28:31 - I thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

28:33 - I yield back.

28:35 - Thank the gentleman.

28:36 - Representative Kincaid.

28:38 - Thank you, chairman, and thank you for being here.

28:40 - My colleague Ben Waxman is not here, so,

28:44 - I will be taking over for his, questions about little Scandinavia.

28:47 - So, last time we talked, we were talking

28:52 - about the potential expansion for Little Scandinavia beyond sci Chester.

28:56 - And I'm wondering where that stands.

28:58 - Great question.

28:58 - And you've had an opportunity to visit. Correct.

29:01 - So if anyone does want to visit any of our sites, particularly Chester,

29:05 - and then our new site, we are expanding it to three other institutions,

29:09 - Cambridge Springs, because we did want to look at it in a female facility,

29:13 - FCI Smithfield and FCI Weymouth.

29:16 - They're in the process of doing physical plant upgrades to these units.

29:20 - Fayette and Smithfield will have a 31 bed unit

29:24 - and Cambridge Springs will do a 44 bed unit.

29:27 - I actually happen to be at Cambridge Springs

29:29 - last month, and it's coming along very nicely.

29:32 - They're doing just a wonderful job and we're really excited about the expansion.

29:36 - We're going to look at different research,

29:38 - measures for what, this unit will look like.

29:41 - And we're really excited to put it in facilities

29:44 - that have higher security individuals because we know

29:48 - Chester generally has a lower security population.

29:51 - But we're really excited to see where where we can go

29:54 - with the little Scandinavia expansion project.

29:57 - I am as well.

29:58 - And, and as we talk about kind of the scalability of Scandinavia,

30:02 - I think one of the things that we need to talk about

30:04 - is, the experience of the corrections officers on that unit.

30:08 - And, and from the feedback that I've gotten

30:12 - from talking to them, that's it's been a largely positive experience.

30:15 - And also their sort of overall wellness has increased.

30:19 - So, you know, I know with employee retention, a lot of what you're,

30:23 - you know, focusing on, is employment, employee wellness.

30:26 - So one, have you hired anyone to address that particular issue?

30:31 - And, do you foresee the expansion of Little Scandinavia?

30:36 - Actually helping with, with that?

30:40 - Absolutely.

30:41 - That was that wasn't really something that they were looking at when they first,

30:45 - did the little Scandinavia project.

30:47 - But through and I've had conversations with the staff on that unit

30:52 - and they anecdotally had said, yes, I'm not taking medication or I come on

30:57 - the unit and it's just a different environment,

30:59 - and that's the environment

31:00 - we want our staff to be comfortable in and to feel safe in.

31:04 - So yes, that's one of the reasons that we did expand it.

31:07 - Now, could we expand that model to the entire Department of Corrections?

31:11 - Now we just don't have the space, certainly don't have the money to do that.

31:15 - But I think we're in a good position where we continue to measure that.

31:19 - I really think it'll be good to start messaging

31:21 - to the other corrections officers and do probably a little bit better job

31:26 - of educating what these units are, how the staff interact

31:30 - in a positive manner with the individuals on the unit.

31:33 - And so we're really hopeful because yes, the staff wellness piece is something

31:37 - that's one of our initiatives as it is, but this is something that was,

31:41 - really a good consequence of this, project as well.

31:45 - Thank you.

31:46 - And as we're kind of talking about wellness, one sort of a yes

31:50 - or no question.

31:51 - The RH use the restricted housing unit is solitary confinement.

31:56 - Yes. Now it's under under the definition of solitary confinement. No.

32:02 - How so

32:04 - FP do you want to.

32:05 - Yeah. The definition of restrictive housing.

32:08 - Yeah.

32:08 - And I, I guess I misunderstand when you say solitary confinement.

32:13 - What is the definition of solitary confinement?

32:15 - Solitary confinement is, housing an individual by themselves,

32:20 - for up to 23 hours a day with no, direct interaction

32:26 - with, other individuals other than,

32:29 - potentially their,

32:32 - the guards or, the and the only interaction

32:36 - that they would have with others is, if they're, you know, outside, but not

32:40 - they don't have direct interaction having toward, restricted housing units.

32:45 - It meets the definition of solitary confinement.

32:48 - Or does I, for one thing,

32:52 - or, anybody in a

32:53 - or restricted housing for over 30 days now gets three hours out of that.

32:58 - So that's, you know, they're in their cells less than,

33:01 - you know, 21 hours at a maximum.

33:05 - And they get out for three hours a day and even more,

33:09 - the interaction,

33:11 - they not only interact with, each other, you know, on the units out in the yards,

33:16 - but they're also interacting with psych staff, with treatment staff.

33:19 - We have counselors that are constantly on those units working with those guys.

33:24 - I appreciate that, but the interactions with psych staff

33:27 - and staff is not does not count in this capacity.

33:31 - So I'm wondering what it is that you guys are doing to reform

33:34 - the restricted housing units.

33:35 - Well, like I said, are we've reformed the restricted

33:38 - housing units in that anyone over 30 days.

33:41 - So the definition by ACA standards is what you explained.

33:46 - Words, 22 hours or more within a cell.

33:50 - I'm any party we have in restricted housing over 30 days

33:54 - doesn't meet our definition because we've reformed it.

33:58 - The word they're getting out of out of cell, at least three hours a day.

34:02 - Thank you.

34:03 - By international standards, it's, So I think that we need to continue

34:07 - to work on reforming that. Thank you.

34:09 - Thank the gentle lady representative Maiko.

34:12 - Thank you, Mr.

34:13 - Chairman and Madam Secretary, for being here first.

34:16 - Before I start, I just want to give you guys a shout out.

34:18 - My staff said that dealing with corrections, you guys are the absolute

34:23 - best.

34:24 - There's you guys on one end, and then a transportation element

34:28 - of the Commonwealth that I will not name because we haven't met with them yet.

34:32 - And I need some projects done.

34:34 - That's on the far end.

34:35 - But having said that, thank you.

34:37 - And they wanted me to give you guys a shout out.

34:38 - So thank you for what you do.

34:41 - My question is around

34:43 - the in institution violence rates.

34:46 - So I guess from 2020 to 20 20 to 2021, we were looking at 35 out of a thousand.

34:54 - And then last year for 24 to 25, it was up to 71.

34:58 - It doubled right.

34:59 - And it was brought to my attention.

35:01 - I had forgotten about this, but there was the Violence

35:03 - Reduction Task force that you guys were trying to implement.

35:07 - What's up with that?

35:08 - Would you guys come up with did or did you reduce those numbers?

35:12 - I know obviously we didn't have the metrics for this year yet, but yeah.

35:16 - Yes. Violence is a huge factor.

35:19 - We were seeing nationally increases in violence.

35:23 - And so we did put a good memory.

35:25 - We did put together a violence reduction committee last year.

35:28 - Doctor Zaken was part of that.

35:29 - And we have some several things that we're hoping to roll out,

35:32 - one of which is our inmate tablets, which we may talk about here today,

35:36 - but that's that's something

35:37 - that we're looking forward to because states that have implemented,

35:40 - tablets for all of their, incarcerated

35:44 - inmates, individuals has seen reductions in serious incidents.

35:49 - So that's a positive.

35:50 - And Doctor Zaken can tell you

35:52 - some of the other initiatives that we've done around violence.

35:55 - So like you mentioned the Violence Reduction Taskforce,

35:58 - the different subcommittees all came up with, various recommendations.

36:03 - And, well, one of the themes throughout all the different subcommittees

36:08 - on, On our violence is communication skills,

36:12 - with our between staff and inmates and then meeting with each other.

36:18 - So one of the, first initiatives

36:20 - we took was, we changed our training, for all staff,

36:26 - for increased de-escalation training started at the academy last year.

36:31 - We did everybody we went through the academy, which was over 1700.

36:36 - People were rolling that out to other staff this year and to give them

36:41 - more tools on de-escalating situations

36:44 - before they were violent, but also on the inmate on inmate violence.

36:49 - Some of that

36:51 - is also because of communication issues

36:54 - and disrespect that they received between each other.

36:58 - So one of the things I, Dallas and Doctor,

37:01 - Austin, started a program.

37:04 - They're using inmate peers, you know, older inmates

37:08 - who have been around or who've, stayed out of trouble to,

37:13 - basically mentor,

37:17 - it's like a partnership inmate, you know, under staff supervision.

37:21 - And that seems to be another area where between our certified peer specialists

37:27 - and we can utilize, get that nonviolent message in other.

37:32 - And we've also done some policy changes already.

37:35 - What, another area

37:37 - we see a lot of

37:38 - violent acts committed with master locks.

37:41 - The inmates put them in a sock or something.

37:43 - We've completely changed.

37:44 - We find a much lighter lock that is less likely,

37:48 - you know, to injure somebody, get hit in the head.

37:51 - And we've rolled that out throughout the, institutions

37:54 - with seven institutions left to do with that.

37:57 - That's, and yet we have not

38:00 - had one person hitting to have one that locks it.

38:04 - So you're seeing so you are seeing a reduction with the mentorship.

38:07 - And then some of these policies that have been put into place.

38:11 - Have we seen the numbers go down yet.

38:14 - No. Okay.

38:15 - But that's that's consistent throughout the country

38:20 - violence is went up and a lot of it because it's coming out of Covid

38:24 - as the institutions became, you know, the restrictions were lifted.

38:27 - Yeah.

38:28 - We opened up more, that really increased violence within institutions.

38:33 - And plus the filling of vacancies brought in a lot of

38:36 - and an experienced staff who also,

38:40 - you know, don't have experience working in institutions.

38:42 - So it takes some time, you know, to adjust and make that happen.

38:47 - And ironically, also the success of JRA two and a lot of these,

38:54 - sentencing reforms that are diverting

38:57 - are nonviolent offenders out of the institutions have actually made

39:00 - an increased concentration of violent, violent people in any sense.

39:04 - Yeah. No, it makes sense.

39:06 - I mean, I think it might be a cultural thing, too,

39:08 - because violence outside the wire has increased as well as we're seeing.

39:11 - So it's not just inside the wire

39:14 - or however you guys would refer to it. But.

39:17 - All right, I see my time's up.

39:18 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Madam Secretary. Thank you sir.

39:21 - Thank the gentleman, Representative Mace.

39:24 - Thank you, Chair Harris.

39:26 - Happy black history month Secretary Harry, thank you for being here today.

39:31 - You and your team.

39:33 - My first question is about the Dignity Act for incarcerated women.

39:38 - I've asked questions about, this bill and law in previous sessions.

39:43 - This bill was passed in 2023.

39:46 - I'd advocated for it long before I became a legislator as the chair surface,

39:50 - as co-chair of the Pennsylvania Black Maternal Health Caucus, along with,

39:54 - Rep Curry and I, a key provision in the Dignity Act for incarcerated women

40:00 - is to prevent shackling of,

40:02 - shackling of pregnant incarcerated folk.

40:06 - So I wanted to ask every ask you if the report that you're required

40:10 - to submit around use of restraints of pregnant incarcerated inmates

40:15 - if it's been released for 2025, and if so, what have been

40:19 - the findings around your use of restraints on pregnant inmates?

40:24 - Thank you.

40:24 - First, I just have to tell you that I like your hats.

40:26 - So, Thank you for this.

40:28 - Well, Yes, we issued our first report in August of 2025.

40:34 - We did have an instance on the parole side, and, eds Evans can discuss that.

40:39 - And we also had, actually, as far as shackling.

40:42 - Yes, that was that was the one instance or Deputy Carpenter.

40:46 - Yeah.

40:46 - I can since I've been in this in my 18 months, we had, one case

40:50 - of shackling, pregnant woman during a, transport.

40:55 - She was extremely distressed.

40:57 - She was harming others and herself.

41:00 - But as soon as she calmed down, we took those restraints off,

41:04 - and she was safely transported to the CI.

41:08 - So I just

41:08 - want to point out the the progress that we have made,

41:12 - with this issue going back to 2009,

41:16 - I've been an advocate for ending the barbaric practice of shackling,

41:20 - any person, but especially a pregnant inmate.

41:23 - So to go from being a rampant,

41:26 - epidemic in our, our prisons and jails across this commonwealth,

41:31 - so heartened to hear that our legislation

41:33 - around the Dignity Act and the years of advocacy

41:36 - has reduced that number to one case here in the Commonwealth.

41:40 - My next question is around also related to medical provision

41:44 - is the $5 co-pay for inmates.

41:49 - We know that you are statutorily

41:51 - required to charge that copay.

41:55 - It was suspended during the pandemic.

41:57 - It was reinstated.

41:59 - I think that it is a barrier to health care for inmates, especially those

42:04 - who don't have family support or are not able to earn the wages

42:08 - while they're incarcerated.

42:09 - To be able to pay that $5 co-pay if you suspended it before,

42:14 - what are your thoughts around suspending it again?

42:16 - Increase.

42:17 - Creating greater access to health care for those who are incarcerated.

42:22 - And we we discussed this earlier, I think, before you came in.

42:25 - But our biggest concern is when we did suspended

42:28 - during Covid, we saw a 25 to 42% increase

42:32 - in the use of medical or some would say misuse of medical.

42:37 - And our providers simply could not keep in keep up with the demand.

42:41 - They were not able to see individuals within 24 to 48 hours.

42:45 - The individuals who actually have chronic care conditions, they couldn't be seen.

42:50 - And it really overburdened our providers.

42:52 - As we talked earlier, we'd need an extra probably 15 million

42:56 - plus for additional providers if we decided to take that copay away.

43:01 - We have done research with other states, and many states have,

43:05 - similar to what we have.

43:07 - Some are lower, some are actually higher, and some don't even pay their,

43:11 - population.

43:13 - So, we would just have some real concerns.

43:15 - At one facility, 67% of the

43:19 - individuals at that facility submitted weekly sick call slips.

43:23 - It simply was unmanageable.

43:25 - And the neighboring state actually said that they,

43:28 - went to no copay, and they they're seeing the exact same thing.

43:32 - It's becoming unmanageable.

43:34 - They don't have a plan to manage the misuse.

43:36 - And we don't want to get to that point.

43:39 - And we do feel that we're at a happy medium because there

43:41 - were many things, diagnostic screenings, mental health treatment.

43:45 - There's lots of things

43:46 - that chronic conditions that they do not have to pay a co-pay for.

43:51 - So we feel like we found that balance

43:54 - and how the moneys you collect from those co-pays.

43:57 - How is that money spent?

44:00 - Okay,

44:02 - that money just offsetting the medical appropriation

44:05 - at roughly $526,000 was collected on copay.

44:09 - Okay.

44:10 - And if I just

44:11 - have time for one last question, which is about the communication system,

44:15 - have there been any changes or upgrades to your communication system for emails

44:19 - and the use of tablets?

44:21 - And my understanding was, is that there has been a request

44:24 - or some indication that prisoners and inmates will be getting new tablets.

44:29 - Could you provide an update on that?

44:31 - And thank you.

44:31 - Mr. Chair, yeah, I can answer your question really quickly.

44:35 - Yes, we're in the middle of a procurement,

44:37 - so we have not rolled out the new tablets yet.

44:40 - But as we hit the final stages, we hope to be able to do that this year.

44:44 - So do you have a brief timeline?

44:47 - We're we're getting close.

44:49 - My hope would be summer to fall that we could start the rollout.

44:54 - Thank you so much, Secretary.

44:55 - Thank you all, chair.

44:58 - Thanks to Gentle Lady and recognizes Representative Cutts.

45:01 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

45:02 - Good afternoon. Thank you so much for joining us.

45:05 - I'd like to ask you about, the body cam program for state parole agents.

45:10 - I was the prime sponsor of legislation.

45:12 - That language became part of part of the law, to implement

45:16 - this program, which I think provides the transparency and accountability

45:21 - that we're looking for, but also provide safety for our state patrol agents.

45:25 - And, also helps them administratively,

45:28 - be it in stalking horse arguments or whatever, you have the body cameras.

45:32 - So there's no argument

45:34 - as to when they're out in the field, making sure that that they're safe.

45:38 - And, that the process is working.

45:41 - So along those lines, last year we discussed this program,

45:45 - and at the time the request for proposal

45:48 - were being reviewed, and we were told you hoped to implement the program.

45:51 - Fourth quarter 2025, it was projected, would cost 1.5.

45:56 - And the state field supervision appropriation,

45:58 - for the purchase of the cameras, with possibility that there would be long

46:02 - term maintenance costs. Of course.

46:04 - So I'm just curious what the status of the initiative is.

46:07 - From from your perspective, first of all, before

46:10 - I turn it over to Deputy Carpenter, thank you.

46:12 - We're actually very excited about this rollout.

46:15 - We're getting very close, and she can update you on that.

46:17 - Total cost was around $2 million.

46:20 - And we are hopeful that down the road, this may open up the door

46:23 - once we get everything finalized on the field side to what that might look

46:27 - like, body cameras on the inside as well for our officers, deputy.

46:32 - So I am pleased to announce that we finally have a fully executed contract.

46:36 - As of this month, actually.

46:37 - So we met with the, awarded contract vendor earlier this month.

46:42 - We have a proposal plan set, and our goal is to roll out the first office

46:46 - spring of this year. Excellent, excellent.

46:50 - So you mentioned you said of round 2 million.

46:54 - So I'm just curious.

46:56 - Last year we had heard 1.5.

46:57 - So two is is what you think the general assessment ended up being the contract

47:02 - 2.1. Yes. Okay. Excellent, excellent.

47:04 - Do you have an estimate as to the annual cost that we'll see moving forward?

47:11 - And then you mentioned hopefully expansion of the program as well.

47:15 - Is that something you would like to see sooner rather than later?

47:19 - And if there are costs associated with that as well?

47:23 - Yes. The, annual cost is 666

47:29 - for the body cameras, 66,000 is 66,000.

47:32 - Now, if we would roll this out on the officer side,

47:37 - it would almost tripled to 5.6 million.

47:40 - Because of course we have a lot more staff.

47:42 - We are definitely supportive of that.

47:44 - I will, share that the officers corrections officers

47:48 - union has not been thus far.

47:50 - But that's something that we would absolutely work with them

47:53 - regarding the policy.

47:54 - And I think a lot of it is really just an education piece.

47:57 - And the parole staff have done

47:58 - a great job really educating folks for the very reasons that you just said

48:02 - the transparency and safety for everyone involved.

48:06 - And I think the states I we've actually had I've had opportunities

48:10 - to sit in on other states who have implemented body cameras.

48:14 - And I think once they've been implemented, staff recognize the benefit

48:19 - and and a significant amount of work that is actually eliminated.

48:22 - And investigations and allegations and things along this well, I look forward

48:26 - to continuing those conversations with you and and want to reiterate that I

48:30 - think you're absolutely right when it comes to being in the field,

48:33 - having having the tool there helps when new charges

48:37 - are brought to be able to have the black and white.

48:40 - I think it helps from a suppression of evidence standpoint

48:42 - to make sure that we give tools to to prosecutors as well,

48:46 - so that judges are able to see, hey, this evidence was collected legally.

48:51 - We're not violating anyone's Fourth Amendment rights or anything like that.

48:54 - Just because it was a parole agent who who had the camera.

48:58 - So, I appreciate your your work on that.

49:00 - I'll look forward to, a collaboration moving forward with that regard.

49:05 - And, want to thank you for your time here today.

49:07 - And thank the chairman.

49:08 - Thank you. Thank the gentleman, Representative Curry.

49:12 - Thank you.

49:12 - Chairman. Hello.

49:14 - Secretary Henry.

49:15 - And to your wonderful team.

49:17 - Really excited that you're here today because I've had a chance to work

49:23 - on some critical issues, around maternal care

49:27 - and mental health equity for constituents across the Commonwealth.

49:31 - And as one of the co-chairs of the Black Maternal Health Caucus,

49:35 - in partnership with the Department of Health and Department

49:38 - of Human Services, I was able to witness on a visit to see

49:42 - Muncie this policy work which made the lactation program

49:46 - menstrual, health care products and doula care within the doc possible.

49:52 - Secretary Henry, can you please highlight what you have seen

49:55 - that has impacted the mental, the maternal health

49:58 - outcomes, understanding the grim realities

50:01 - of the state's maternal mortality mortality rates.

50:05 - So thank you for your work.

50:06 - Because it is critical work.

50:08 - With regard to like the doula program, we we had 16 individuals who,

50:13 - delivered last year and I believe all 16 accepted doula services,

50:19 - both before they delivered and then they do it for, I believe,

50:23 - six months after they deliver.

50:25 - So that's been widely popular for our women.

50:29 - And they have great connections with the community.

50:32 - And it's just that that piece has gone very, very well.

50:36 - The lactation,

50:37 - we actually haven't had as much interest, although it is available to them.

50:41 - So I think that's the important thing.

50:43 - It's someone's individual choice.

50:44 - And if they choose not to that's okay.

50:46 - So we haven't seen as much,

50:48 - participation as far as the lactation services.

50:51 - And then with regard to menstrual health,

50:53 - we do provide free menstrual products to the ladies.

50:56 - And whether it's pads, tampons, they can certainly purchase others

51:00 - on their own. But we do offer those for free.

51:02 - So the service that that that has definitely impacted the positive.

51:06 - Well, I really appreciate that.

51:08 - I know that when I was there, some of the women were expressing

51:12 - the fact, you know, menstrual health is is definitely a thing.

51:16 - And after you've had a child, that bleeding can be a little different.

51:21 - And so I just want to make sure that we are really paying attention

51:24 - to the vendors that provide those, products, and we can work on that.

51:30 - Looking at the budget for the doc, see how much of the allotment is allocated

51:34 - to the maternal care, programs that are working with women

51:39 - who are going through the birthing journey in your care.

51:42 - And you've kind of expressed that, but what maternal health products

51:46 - and services are provided in the postpartum period after birth?

51:51 - And how does your staff ensure consistent and equitable distribution

51:55 - of both the products and postpartum mental health?

51:59 - Because we know that the mental health of women

52:02 - after they've given birth has it's it's critical.

52:06 - And so what types of services for mental health, substance use disorder,

52:11 - those types of things to care for moms after they deliver?

52:17 - You're absolutely correct that,

52:19 - women we actually see higher increases in substance

52:23 - use and mental health in general with our incarcerated women.

52:26 - So that's a huge part of the work that they do at Cambridge Springs and Muncie.

52:30 - And they do an amazing job.

52:32 - They also do an amazing job with trauma.

52:34 - They have, trauma programs or more residential programs.

52:38 - And so back to just, after delivery.

52:42 - Those doulas have been really key and important in helping them,

52:46 - after they deliver and the the staff at Cambridge

52:51 - Springs and Muncie have expressed that the, the women

52:55 - have taken advantage of those services, and that's been very positive for them.

52:59 - We have therapeutic communities, as are substance abuse, like a essentially

53:03 - a rehab in prison.

53:04 - We have outpatient programs.

53:06 - Like I said, we do the House of healing and House of Hope around trauma.

53:10 - They do a lot of work.

53:11 - Project impact is where they do a lot of work

53:14 - around visitation with mothers and their children.

53:18 - And family reunification.

53:20 - So all of that in and they just

53:23 - they have different needs in our female facility.

53:26 - So they're doing a really amazing job around that.

53:29 - I'm so glad that you are keeping track of that.

53:31 - Is there do you keep statistics or track of women

53:36 - who are having those difficulties, who come to you and, and, and make that

53:41 - or come to your staff and make that apparent

53:43 - that they're not doing well during that time.

53:45 - And I think that's the biggest concern here,

53:48 - because when I was there visiting, there were some concerns with that.

53:52 - And we want to just make sure that we continue to work with you

53:55 - and your staff on helping this to be a thing, because we want to continue

53:59 - to decrease the maternal mortality rates here in Pennsylvania.

54:03 - Thank you, Secretary Henry, and your team.

54:07 - Thank the gentlelady, Representative Marcel.

54:10 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

54:11 - And thank you so much to everyone for being here this afternoon.

54:15 - There is an inmate currently in a Doc

54:18 - facility, Mark Newton Spotts,

54:21 - who executed three women in three different counties in a killing spree

54:27 - while on the run in 1995 after killing his brother.

54:30 - Since we are saying his name, I think it's important

54:33 - that we also mentioned the victims as well.

54:36 - Penny Garnett of York County,

54:38 - June Rose Olinger of Schuylkill County,

54:42 - Betty Umstead of Cumberland

54:44 - County, and his brother, Dustin Spotts.

54:47 - He was convicted of voluntary manslaughter in his brother's slaying

54:51 - and sentenced to death for murdering these three women.

54:55 - One of the victims family members recently received

54:58 - a letter that I'm happy to provide to you after I'm done.

55:01 - My question

55:03 - sharing the

55:04 - news that since the signing of the settlement agreement

55:07 - with your department several years ago relating to his treatment,

55:11 - you provided additional privileges to this inmate.

55:15 - Those include.

55:16 - And I'll read directly from the letter, please.

55:20 - Standard brown uniforms, expanded work assignments.

55:23 - Access to standard general population, recreational yard and activities.

55:28 - Access to off unit educational worship, leisure

55:33 - treatment and vocational programing, and access

55:36 - to the main law library.

55:41 - Why did this happen outside of the settlement agreement?

55:44 - And why did this death row inmate obtain additional privileges?

55:49 - Finally, is this fair to the victims families that now have received

55:55 - this information that they basically that he executed their family member?

56:00 - So can you please shine some light on that for me?

56:03 - Yes. Back in 29, 19, 2019,

56:09 - the department entered a settlement agreement with our capital.

56:14 - So did these change recently?

56:16 - Because this date is September 2025.

56:19 - So I don't need to go back to 2019.

56:21 - I appreciate it, but I only have a few minutes.

56:23 - Well, but that's when that's when it happened.

56:26 - Those those changes, did not I understand that she received the letter.

56:31 - There was concern and I think that's why letters were sent

56:34 - from the office of victim.

56:35 - These were not new and these were not new.

56:38 - So you're saying to me that the changes were made in 2019,

56:41 - but the families didn't get that until 2025.

56:45 - I honestly can't speak to what was done at the time.

56:49 - I obviously I wasn't in this this position, but I do know

56:52 - that the department did engage in that settlement agreement.

56:55 - And those changes occurred shortly after the settlement agreement.

57:00 - So, yes, they had been occurring for so there were changes that were made

57:03 - because of the settlement agreement.

57:05 - But then these are new.

57:07 - These are not, I guess, because of the letter.

57:10 - And I'm happy to give it to you.

57:11 - I know that they're outside of the settlement agreement. No.

57:15 - Oh, I see what you're saying.

57:16 - I see what you're saying. The settlement agreement occurred.

57:18 - Yes. You're correct.

57:19 - And then they made these changes in 2025?

57:22 - No, the changes were not made in 2025.

57:25 - But that may be perhaps how the letter reads.

57:27 - And I apologize for that.

57:28 - So I'm happy to provide the letter at the end of this.

57:31 - I'd love to be able to drill down and figure this out for,

57:34 - because these families in September got this letter.

57:38 - Now they're concerned.

57:40 - And if you're saying this

57:40 - has been going on for years, why would they were they notified so late?

57:44 - So I'd like to really figure this out if please.

57:48 - Is it typical for a death row inmate to have

57:51 - all of these general population opportunities? Yes.

57:55 - Based on the settlement agreement? Yes.

57:58 - Outside of a settlement agreement.

58:00 - I'm not saying that settlement agreement is a settlement agreement.

58:02 - I'm saying outside of what is in that settlement, can you make a determination

58:07 - to give them those options outside of the settlement agreement?

58:15 - Why we ended up I, I don't know how much you know

58:18 - about the federal agreement with the ACLU and abolitionist law.

58:21 - I did read about that.

58:22 - I don't probably have a minute left so that really their their basis was

58:28 - we were placing guys in a specific housing, restricted housing.

58:33 - So I just need an answer to the question, can you make changes inside

58:36 - of the settlement to make everybody suspend the changes?

58:40 - Everybody suspend represented more.

58:44 - So I will give you additional time to get your answer.

58:47 - If you just let let them let them respond.

58:49 - I get very worried that I'm going to not have enough time to appreciate an answer.

58:53 - So I don't know.

58:54 - I appreciate you, I'll give you more time if we just let let them respond.

58:58 - Thank you. Yeah.

58:59 - The changes you're referring to, I wouldn't even label as changes.

59:03 - What happened was this subtle agreement that we had to come down to

59:06 - was basically to give these guys

59:08 - a more general population setting, as opposed to restricted us

59:12 - without restraints, you know, call it activities, more time out of self.

59:16 - That's not we cannot operate

59:19 - the capital case unit no longer as a restricted housing.

59:23 - So the central agreement. Yeah, the

59:27 - you know and I'm not trying to split hairs

59:29 - but it said like four hours or more out of cell adjacent.

59:33 - And there's some hair splitting there.

59:35 - But in all essence we all the changes

59:38 - were made because of this settlement agreement settlement.

59:41 - Can I just read one like this?

59:43 - One sentence just says since the signing of the settlement agreement,

59:47 - additional changes have been made that are not part of the settlement agreement.

59:52 - So that makes me think that

59:54 - that is outside of the process that you're sharing with me.

59:57 - 730 The changes that were made

01:00 - 02.832 after the settled agreement.

01:00 - 06.803 It was it did not happen all one time when all of the settlement

01:00 - 11.207 did not happen at one time because we had to physically modify

01:00 - 15.945 our units and our yards to comply with the settlement settlement agreement.

01:00 - 18.281 So overall, although the settlement

01:00 - 22.452 came into effect six years ago or so,

01:00 - 24.621 it took us years

01:00 - 27.991 to be in full compliance with the settlement agreement.

01:00 - 31.694 So yeah, there were changes after the settlement agreement

01:00 - 34.330 to comply with the settlement agreement.

01:00 - 36.633 But you're saying additional privileges?

01:00 - 38.701 The only thing may be the subtle agreement.

01:00 - 42.405 Like I said, had four hours to sell at least per day.

01:00 - 44.374 That's not in this letter, though.

01:00 - 46.676 Like I, I appreciate that you're saying that because that makes sense.

01:00 - 48.444 That's not what they're saying. You are correct.

01:00 - 53.249 We did make changes to where, they could attend religious services.

01:00 - 56.352 They could do work adjacent to the housing units.

01:00 - 59.355 Some of them are specifically in the settlement agreement,

01:00 - 04.560 and some of them were additional, privileges that were through

01:01 - 08.798 what he said, through the expansion of the capital case units.

01:01 - 13.936 They are all still on the same housing, but there were a few additional.

01:01 - 17.573 So I don't want to keep us here talking about this.

01:01 - 20.677 I know everyone needs to leave to go back to their districts, but

01:01 - 24.681 I would like to leave you this letter, and I really would appreciate

01:01 - 28.818 if you could tell me like this was the settlement agreement and this was not.

01:01 - 30.920 And this is why, because I believe

01:01 - 34.657 that these family members all deserve correct information

01:01 - 39.629 so that they really understand the difference between those two areas,

01:01 - 43.099 because the way that this letter from the office of the Victim Advocate

01:01 - 46.869 reads it, it's directly conflicting with what you're telling me.

01:01 - 48.204 So I will leave this with you.

01:01 - 51.941 And I look forward to figuring this out for all of the families that were,

01:01 - 56.813 affected and had their family members murdered by this gentleman.

01:01 - 59.382 So thank you very much, Mr.

01:01 - 00.983 Chairman, for the additional time.

01:02 - 03.252 Thank the gentlelady, Representative Friel.

01:02 - 03.953 Thank you all.

01:02 - 06.789 I'll be quick with my questions.

01:02 - 09.792 So we know that the doc report on recidivism,

01:02 - 14.731 states that, you know, family visits or supportive

01:02 - 19.502 visits are correlated with lower, recidivism with inmates.

01:02 - 23.172 But if we look at since 2019,

01:02 - 27.810 I believe you're down about 70% in these visits.

01:02 - 31.748 And I think, pre-pandemic, there was bussing.

01:02 - 34.450 There was other things to get family members closer to there.

01:02 - 38.121 Is there any you know, I guess what's the biggest barrier

01:02 - 41.390 to making sure that our

01:02 - 44.427 that if we're trying to reduce recidivism

01:02 - 47.096 and we know that this is a tactic to do

01:02 - 51.434 that, what's stopping us from going back to where we saw

01:02 - 55.271 was a successful, mitigation effort in this regard.

01:02 - 59.675 So that report at the time, we did not have video visitation

01:02 - 03.212 and we actually did a subsequent research study that showed

01:03 - 06.783 any visitation, whether visit video visitation

01:03 - 11.754 or in-person visitation, have a positive impact on recidivism.

01:03 - 15.024 That being said, we actually have only seen, I believe

01:03 - 18.027 it's a 50% decrease in in person.

01:03 - 20.696 The reality is we just put out a press release.

01:03 - 25.168 The reality is people like the convenience of video visitation.

01:03 - 28.905 We I think one of the barriers for us is that people don't show

01:03 - 32.475 they cancel their visits because of.

01:03 - 36.345 I can't speak for them, but it could be logistical issues.

01:03 - 38.147 It's more convenient, obviously,

01:03 - 41.484 to jump on a computer or your phone and be able to do it virtually.

01:03 - 42.819 You know, we're proud of the fact

01:03 - 46.656 that we added that option for our incarcerated population,

01:03 - 51.294 because now they are able to visit with more folks that perhaps couldn't visit.

01:03 - 53.663 Maybe they're from another state, maybe they're a relative

01:03 - 57.366 that they would have never seen in person because of the distance

01:03 - 00.937 or where they live, or maybe their work schedule or numerous factors.

01:04 - 05.041 So, we have done some bus pilot with the prison society.

01:04 - 08.477 They've received some grant funding, and we've been supportive of that.

01:04 - 12.148 We always are willing to look at our visitation practices.

01:04 - 17.720 But when I visit facilities, they they confirm that people are canceling.

01:04 - 22.592 We have a much higher cancellation rate about 42% for in-person visits

01:04 - 26.929 or no show cancellation or no show, and 21% for virtual.

01:04 - 31.200 So I understand, but let me ask this drill down into the cancellations.

01:04 - 35.271 I mean, so pre-pandemic, before 2019, there was bus services

01:04 - 40.243 provided by Doc or in conjunction to be able to help families get to there.

01:04 - 42.278 Is that is that correct? The.

01:04 - 48.251 Yeah, yeah.

01:04 - 49.418 Yeah, yeah.

01:04 - 54.190 The prisons this I decided it would do busses out of Philadelphia for example.

01:04 - 57.460 And we would advertise those for

01:04 - 02.732 well I guess so if there's not the same availability of logistics,

01:05 - 07.970 as there was in 2019 as there is today, wouldn't that,

01:05 - 09.805 you know, contribute to those statistics

01:05 - 11.540 where there's a lot of in-person cancellations

01:05 - 13.609 if I don't have the same availability to do that?

01:05 - 14.310 Maybe.

01:05 - 17.446 Well, if we're if we had a million visits,

01:05 - 22.151 I think the the argument is they found a way to visit

01:05 - 27.390 that meets their needs in today's, today's society, we have over a million.

01:05 - 31.060 Only a hundred, roughly 100,000 were in-person visits.

01:05 - 36.465 So the vastly popular visitation is video visitation.

01:05 - 39.468 Now, we're going to root cause, though, right?

01:05 - 41.938 So my question is, what's the root cause?

01:05 - 44.407 Is it popular because they don't have access to in-person?

01:05 - 47.576 There's a popular because that's a preferred method.

01:05 - 49.679 If I had equal access to that. Right.

01:05 - 52.648 So I guess the nature of the question and you know, which

01:05 - 56.118 I don't think we have, I think the answer is we don't know if.

01:05 - 57.320 Yeah, we haven't surveyed.

01:05 - 59.722 We don't we don't know if that would be if there's

01:05 - 01.324 what's the impediment to in-person.

01:06 - 03.492 Why are those cancellations?

01:06 - 04.660 Happening.

01:06 - 06.529 And that's I think something you should explores.

01:06 - 10.766 Why are the in-person visits being canceled and what's the impediment,

01:06 - 13.202 what's the barrier. And if there's anything we can do about that.

01:06 - 16.906 So thank you, thank you, thank the gentleman.

01:06 - 20.776 Representative van Zyl.

01:06 - 22.211 Thank you, Chairman Harrison.

01:06 - 23.879 And thank you all for being here today.

01:06 - 26.882 I want to talk about the two facility closures.

01:06 - 28.784 In a list here.

01:06 - 32.655 The budget indicates, the combined expenditures, expenditures

01:06 - 35.791 of the two facilities at $162 million,

01:06 - 39.462 and we have 45 million and other expenses.

01:06 - 43.532 Can you go into what what was that other $45 million for the two facilities?

01:06 - 46.869 And also being that we have to keep Rock view,

01:06 - 50.039 are we going to save all that 45 million moving forward?

01:06 - 53.075 How much of that will be left over to maintain rock view?

01:06 - 57.480 So what you're getting in

01:06 - 01.217 the savings is personnel costs and then operational costs.

01:07 - 05.654 The personnel we promised before was going to be around $100 million.

01:07 - 10.793 So what you have is $64.4 million are personnel.

01:07 - 11.994 Now, this right now

01:07 - 15.898 is made up of the vacancies that were created as we were holding jobs.

01:07 - 18.467 Now as we move forward,

01:07 - 20.703 those staff are going to leave from Rockville Quinn,

01:07 - 23.239 and they've already transferred out to those facilities.

01:07 - 25.508 So, you know, you're left with basically,

01:07 - 29.912 a complement of positions that we do not have to fill going forward.

01:07 - 32.581 So that's the savings and personnel.

01:07 - 37.086 It's roughly about 537 positions of, of of a

01:07 - 41.157 for the correctional staff includes beyond officers, all staff in there.

01:07 - 43.993 But this is only the Sky fund.

01:07 - 46.462 The other funds were not affected by the closure

01:07 - 48.264 because they're tied to inmate population.

01:07 - 50.266 More so as they migrated out.

01:07 - 54.870 Medical still has based on population has opened up an infirmary education.

01:07 - 58.574 They had to open up a new school, Smithfield, to compensate for that.

01:07 - 04.113 The other part of this is $27 million is the Rock view Quiana.

01:08 - 06.115 This is the operating money

01:08 - 09.285 that normally for utilities and other operational expenses.

01:08 - 11.253 That's the other chunk of this.

01:08 - 12.922 So that gets you to 90 million.

01:08 - 15.791 And then you have roughly or 91 million.

01:08 - 18.794 Then you have a $10 million savings from the two,

01:08 - 22.965 community corrections centers that we closed Warner's ville in progress.

01:08 - 25.301 That's $9.9 million.

01:08 - 30.372 And then that equals $101.9 million of closure savings

01:08 - 34.510 that was taken off of the cost to carry going into next year.

01:08 - 36.912 So being that we have to

01:08 - 39.882 we're going to have to maintain rock view for however many years.

01:08 - 42.051 As it was stated earlier.

01:08 - 45.054 Did did we look into maybe housing outside

01:08 - 48.824 out of state inmates trying to bring them in so that we could

01:08 - 52.661 so we could somewhat at least pay to maintain that facility moving forward?

01:08 - 55.764 I can tell you the Rock view had roughly almost $100

01:08 - 59.135 million, some future capital expenditures that needed to happen there.

01:08 - 03.105 It's an old facility and it needed a lot of upgrades.

01:09 - 06.876 It's not it has open, it has open cell doors.

01:09 - 10.880 It is not the most, for infectious disease during Covid.

01:09 - 13.983 It's not the most advantageous housing.

01:09 - 16.452 It's a very old facility with a lot of property.

01:09 - 20.189 So, that was really one of the big things too,

01:09 - 24.293 is those future expenditures of Rockville, were quite significant

01:09 - 27.296 when we have almost $1 billion, $1

01:09 - 31.400 billion of capital, future capital needs across

01:09 - 34.537 the Commonwealth, we have to look at that footprint and minimize it.

01:09 - 37.773 Now, we're not going to be spending that much money on Rockville.

01:09 - 41.010 We've submitted cold mothballing,

01:09 - 44.046 a request to DGS to the Department of General Services.

01:09 - 48.350 That way we don't have to continue normally, if you if you close the facility

01:09 - 51.921 for real estate transactional purposes, they want you to maintain it.

01:09 - 56.725 So we're talking maintaining utilities, you heating moisture control the

01:09 - 58.360 this facility.

01:09 - 01.130 We have no intention to continue to keep that going.

01:10 - 05.801 So we will decrease the mothballing expenses to a minimum as possible.

01:10 - 09.672 Since it's on our grounds, we have our own security that can keep an eye on it.

01:10 - 12.675 We just have to maintain fire alarm system, some fire

01:10 - 15.578 fire, control, systems within that facility.

01:10 - 17.012 It'll be very minimal.

01:10 - 19.381 All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:10 - 24.019 Thank the gentleman, Representative Guzman.

01:10 - 24.620 Thank you, Mr.

01:10 - 25.054 Chair.

01:10 - 28.557 And, thank you, team, doc, for your time this afternoon.

01:10 - 30.826 And thank you, of course, for your continue work

01:10 - 33.362 on behalf of all Pennsylvanians and my district.

01:10 - 35.231 I hear a lot from working families

01:10 - 38.334 every day about the challenges they face, whether it's finding good jobs,

01:10 - 42.404 keeping their neighborhood safe, and or making sure the kids have opportunities.

01:10 - 45.708 Doc touches all of those, touches all of those issues,

01:10 - 47.476 especially when it comes to people

01:10 - 50.479 returning back to their communities and becoming productive citizens.

01:10 - 54.583 I'd like to briefly talk about, about visitation.

01:10 - 57.319 And I know, one of my colleagues briefly mentioned it.

01:10 - 59.455 However, I have a constituent in my district, Mr.

01:10 - 04.860 Marcus, who has a, incarcerated son in Huntington, CSC,

01:11 - 08.264 and he could some of his about once every month about how difficult

01:11 - 12.067 it is to be able to schedule an in-person visit with his son.

01:11 - 15.271 In fact, he works a third shift job, and the multiple times

01:11 - 18.540 he has had to weather cancel visits because whether the facility

01:11 - 22.911 is on lockdown or all the different rules or regulations or whatnot that have made

01:11 - 26.315 may have happened, and so on a couple of occasions, he's actually

01:11 - 30.386 driven out there and had, his visits canceled on him by the facility.

01:11 - 33.589 And so I'd like for you to drill down specifically.

01:11 - 36.659 I mean, obviously, this this system was working fine

01:11 - 40.663 prior to 2019, and obviously Covid threw a wrench in in this system.

01:11 - 42.931 But I'd like to to hear from you.

01:11 - 46.935 What are some of the things that we can do to obviously I hear that

01:11 - 49.171 the electronic system is working and fine is great,

01:11 - 52.241 but we all know that, folks, folks in my community,

01:11 - 55.544 they like to have face to face conversations with their family members.

01:11 - 59.481 So what do you tell my constituent Marcus, who has such a difficult time

01:11 - 02.084 seeing his incarcerated son in Huntington? KCI

01:12 - 03.519 well,

01:12 - 06.522 Marcus can absolutely call the facility.

01:12 - 09.625 We have a lot of folks that reach out directly to the institution.

01:12 - 12.194 They can call central Office.

01:12 - 16.899 We have a dedicated person that sometimes will even schedule someone's visit

01:12 - 20.703 if it's a technology type issue, and they can schedule something.

01:12 - 25.341 We many, many states have gone to scheduling visits.

01:12 - 29.611 This isn't new to just Pennsylvania, and even before

01:12 - 33.982 before Covid, it was a first come, first serve and first in first out.

01:12 - 36.151 So the visiting room did fill up.

01:12 - 38.620 This was of course pre video visits.

01:12 - 40.923 If you were the first one there you're the first one to leave.

01:12 - 43.592 If the the chair started to fill up.

01:12 - 47.329 So we've at least we're guaranteeing people visitation time.

01:12 - 51.266 But if he has any concerns by all means the facility will help him.

01:12 - 53.635 We'll help him at the central office level.

01:12 - 55.604 And we've even scheduled visits.

01:12 - 00.342 We we feel numerous calls or or staff assistance for field calls.

01:13 - 04.213 We've been very, very helpful with individuals who feel that

01:13 - 07.716 there's any type of concern in the scheduling system.

01:13 - 09.551 And what about the size themselves?

01:13 - 12.087 I mean, do they have any onerous requirements

01:13 - 14.823 that prohibits families from being able to visit,

01:13 - 19.495 whether it's 24 hour advance notice or 72 of our advance notice, in terms

01:13 - 23.298 of when family members can actually go and visit, do any of our size

01:13 - 27.603 have prohibitive, procedures in place that requires that type of notice

01:13 - 29.538 for scheduling that?

01:13 - 32.341 Yes. First, you have to schedule the visit in advance.

01:13 - 36.645 So yes, you cannot just show up at the facility anymore to have a visit.

01:13 - 37.980 You have to schedule it in advance.

01:13 - 40.983 And so I'm sure you can understand that people that are working third

01:13 - 44.286 shift jobs or second shift jobs that have made those plans

01:13 - 47.523 and have scheduled those appointments, and then to make that drive,

01:13 - 51.360 whether it's three four hour drive and then to have that visit abruptly canceled

01:13 - 54.630 and not necessarily given a reason, you can understand how that creates

01:13 - 57.466 a huge inconvenience for people like Marcus, right?

01:13 - 00.102 I'm sure he would be very frustrated.

01:14 - 04.139 We have we post all of our if for any reason, if there would be

01:14 - 08.043 some issue where the facility couldn't offer visits,

01:14 - 11.046 then we post that information on our website.

01:14 - 13.215 Folks sometimes will call ahead of time and say,

01:14 - 16.518 hey, I'm coming in to visit my loved one. So.

01:14 - 19.188 But yes, I can certainly understand that frustration.

01:14 - 21.990 And so on your leadership level, is there any conversations

01:14 - 25.661 with the seniors in terms of relaxing some of those procedures

01:14 - 29.832 that were put in place because of Covid 19 that we're no longer in?

01:14 - 32.668 Are those conversations happening at your level?

01:14 - 35.604 I'm not sure what you're talking about as far as relaxing.

01:14 - 39.875 The issue is we have a scheduling system now, so all visits are scheduled.

01:14 - 42.711 So if you're scheduled for a visit now,

01:14 - 46.215 if there's again, I don't know, I can't speak to this particular case.

01:14 - 49.384 But they adhere to the scheduling system.

01:14 - 53.222 So if an individual is scheduled and they show up, they get their visit.

01:14 - 56.992 But I don't I can't speak to his specific circumstance.

01:14 - 58.360 It's a lot more work that we need to do.

01:14 - 01.263 And obviously something that's happened in 2019 versus now.

01:15 - 04.867 And, I don't necessarily get why, why, why we can't institute this,

01:15 - 09.037 but let me talk really quickly in the time that I have left, obviously,

01:15 - 12.241 you know, we want to talk about recidivism and bringing that down.

01:15 - 15.244 One of the things that I've noticed, though, however, is that we spend so,

01:15 - 16.311 so less, less money

01:15 - 20.215 than all of our other states in regards to helping our inmates rehabilitate.

01:15 - 23.652 In Pennsylvania, we spend about $1,500 per inmate.

01:15 - 25.420 And so can you help me understand

01:15 - 29.291 why Pennsylvania, why we invest so little in our inmates

01:15 - 33.095 and helping them become better citizens when they leave, incarceration?

01:15 - 36.465 We do a lot of work around reentry.

01:15 - 37.366 I'm not sure that's

01:15 - 39.301 I'm not sure where you're getting, but in terms of culture,

01:15 - 41.870 in terms of culture, where you're getting that figure.

01:15 - 44.840 But I'd be happy to discuss that figure. Yes.

01:15 - 49.511 We we have programing, we have vocational programing, educational programing,

01:15 - 53.048 correctional industries, treatment programs.

01:15 - 57.252 We mental health, substance abuse, reentry services, offices.

01:15 - 59.788 We do a ton of work even on the field side.

01:15 - 02.958 That's an area where we take great pride in, quite frankly.

01:16 - 07.329 Thank you.

01:16 - 08.096 Thank the gentleman.

01:16 - 10.566 Representative Nelson.

01:16 - 12.367 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:16 - 16.371 Thank you for the full staff we have from corrections here.

01:16 - 17.973 You guys have a packed house behind you.

01:16 - 20.742 You know, doctor Harry, it's always great to see you

01:16 - 25.447 and I'd like to follow up on some questions regarding violence.

01:16 - 28.417 Representative Mako had,

01:16 - 31.119 initiated that line of of questioning.

01:16 - 35.090 And, you know, with seeing those incidents,

01:16 - 39.261 you know, more than double, slightly more than double from the 2020, you know,

01:16 - 42.764 now, over 71, out of every thousand,

01:16 - 45.834 the do we have a break out of

01:16 - 50.906 how many of those incidents are inmate on inmate versus inmate on officer?

01:16 - 54.176 And we touch on on where we see those volumes.

01:16 - 57.179 Yeah, we do break down that data

01:16 - 59.915 and we can get that to you if that would be helpful.

01:16 - 00.115 Yeah.

01:17 - 04.453 We've we've broken down actually between the, the largest violence

01:17 - 07.923 in our system is they're made on inmate fights

01:17 - 11.593 and then inmate on inmate assaults is the second largest number

01:17 - 15.130 are the second smaller number.

01:17 - 18.567 And then staff or inmate on staff assaults or.

01:17 - 19.067 Sure.

01:17 - 24.172 And there was mention of of pads or tablets, you know, did devices

01:17 - 28.877 as part of this, a process to help bring those, those numbers down.

01:17 - 33.415 Do we know the cost, the additional cost to the state that these violent incidents

01:17 - 37.786 in workers comp cost to corrections officers, or the medical costs

01:17 - 41.023 associated with this doubling in violence?

01:17 - 48.630 That's okay if we don't have heart and lung cost.

01:17 - 50.032 But I don't know.

01:17 - 53.802 Because they aren't all yeah, obviously, as we're looking at funding and dollars

01:17 - 57.873 can be tight and and being able wait, you know, to find ways to be able

01:17 - 01.510 to support some of those programs that your team is identified,

01:18 - 04.079 you know, that have been helpful in other states.

01:18 - 07.082 I wanted to crossover a little bit into,

01:18 - 11.453 your budget testimony, that was associated

01:18 - 14.456 or potentially associated at our, at our county prison.

01:18 - 19.695 You know, that warden and, in our county, at the county level,

01:18 - 22.798 they consider inmates that are struggling with mental health issues in

01:18 - 26.702 the general population are a larger contributing factor

01:18 - 30.439 to violence against officers or other individuals.

01:18 - 35.777 I saw that about 38% of greater than 38% of inmates

01:18 - 40.982 are identified as having mental illness, and 7.5 serious mental illness

01:18 - 44.252 is that an additional factor in,

01:18 - 47.222 you know, these increased violence incidents?

01:18 - 51.059 I'm not sure it is a factor because of course,

01:18 - 54.963 some of those individuals are involved in that, that data,

01:18 - 01.136 our numbers have stayed consistently around the same regarding mental health,

01:19 - 05.173 but there's a lot of factors, as he talked about, just disrespect

01:19 - 09.911 in the communication piece between staff and those who are incarcerated.

01:19 - 12.748 But it certainly would be a factor.

01:19 - 14.583 But I'm not I'm, I'm not sure

01:19 - 18.153 I'd have to break them down as far as looking at the folks who had,

01:19 - 21.923 some type of mental illness and also an act of violence.

01:19 - 22.290 Sure.

01:19 - 27.195 In the budget findings, you know, within that section, your office has,

01:19 - 32.334 you know, there's cost, additional cost associated medication, mental

01:19 - 36.938 health treatment, in specialized housing, specifically, that last bullet says

01:19 - 40.175 strategic development of incentives

01:19 - 43.178 to house these individuals are essential.

01:19 - 46.081 Can you expand on that a little bit more?

01:19 - 49.117 Is there is there a greater need or,

01:19 - 52.888 you know, how does this all interconnect?

01:19 - 57.359 I think that was in reference to hard to place individuals.

01:19 - 01.830 Perhaps it could be with reentry concurrent.

01:20 - 04.032 It's just the bullets. There are four bullets.

01:20 - 06.868 Five bullets under the mental health needs.

01:20 - 08.403 That was the the final bullets.

01:20 - 12.340 But we weren't really able to quantify what what

01:20 - 15.911 those needs are essential.

01:20 - 18.914 What is it that is needed to better address

01:20 - 22.083 is that for individuals with concurrent,

01:20 - 26.521 cases, you know, how do how do we meet the need that's listed

01:20 - 29.958 in your budget report under this line item for mental health and housing.

01:20 - 33.461 We see, we have approximately 500,

01:20 - 36.464 hard to place cases right now.

01:20 - 39.301 We have 200 cases in our community corrections centers

01:20 - 42.938 that are hard to place, meaning we have to struggle to find them.

01:20 - 43.872 Housing.

01:20 - 46.942 We already talked in our hearing this morning about folks

01:20 - 50.045 that have mental health needs, medical needs.

01:20 - 51.780 And they have a violent crime.

01:20 - 55.016 People don't want them, especially if they have skilled care needs.

01:20 - 58.620 So that's a huge population for us that we struggle to place

01:20 - 00.488 with regard to reentry needs.

01:21 - 03.592 So are those individuals that would benefit from additional

01:21 - 07.262 beds in Torrance or some of those other facilities.

01:21 - 11.166 It gets very confusing for us to be able to understand

01:21 - 14.703 how we can both support our corrections officers

01:21 - 18.440 and also get people the treatment they need while they're incarcerated.

01:21 - 23.011 These folks need skilled care housing, nursing homes, personal care homes.

01:21 - 26.281 We actually recently we've tried to work

01:21 - 29.551 with DMV around homelessness and veterans.

01:21 - 32.454 We also recently EDS Evans.

01:21 - 35.924 We put out an RFP to say, hey, can you house our folks?

01:21 - 39.427 How what would that look like to see if someone would take on the

01:21 - 40.462 like in other states?

01:21 - 45.300 They actually have folks that set aside beds for people in corrections

01:21 - 48.837 because we have the population that needs those services,

01:21 - 51.640 but we just don't have the places that will take them.

01:21 - 54.075 Our social workers make hundreds of calls,

01:21 - 55.710 and when they hear they're from corrections,

01:21 - 58.179 they don't want them in their nursing homes.

01:21 - 01.583 And so we recently put together a workgroup with DHS,

01:22 - 04.920 Department of Health, aging folks that

01:22 - 08.590 from our sister agencies to say, hey, how can we tackle this issue

01:22 - 12.827 and how can we look at getting, places for these folks when they're released?

01:22 - 14.696 Great. Thank you very much. Thank you.

01:22 - 16.564 Chair.

01:22 - 17.198 Thanks, gentlemen.

01:22 - 19.834 And recognizes Representative Bellman.

01:22 - 22.203 Thank you chair, and thank you all for being here.

01:22 - 26.942 So research has shown that maintaining family bonds is a major factor

01:22 - 31.680 in successful completion of incarceration and also a successful reentry.

01:22 - 34.916 What types of communication does the department

01:22 - 37.919 currently provide for free, to inmates?

01:22 - 41.222 And what limitations are associated with those calls?

01:22 - 45.994 Well, the first thing for free is, what is the video visitation?

01:22 - 49.297 And that's offered on every housing unit.

01:22 - 51.766 Individuals can sign up for video visitation.

01:22 - 52.634 That's another reason.

01:22 - 55.971 It's probably, an in-person visitation,

01:22 - 59.341 free.

01:23 - 04.145 Of two free emails.

01:23 - 06.815 I'm sorry, two free emails as well.

01:23 - 10.085 Or are there any type of limitations regarding the video?

01:23 - 14.823 Yeah, they get six video

01:23 - 19.094 or they get six visits a month and they can have all six video visits.

01:23 - 22.263 They can have a combination between in-person and video visits.

01:23 - 23.398 All right.

01:23 - 29.170 And, what do you currently charge per minute for phone calls for roughly $0.04.

01:23 - 32.374 And, do you have an estimate

01:23 - 35.577 on what it would cost to provide free phone calls for inmates?

01:23 - 41.082 With regard to free phone calls, I will say the timing right now

01:23 - 45.220 is probably not good for us because we're in the middle of our combined services

01:23 - 46.554 procurement.

01:23 - 52.394 So just the timing isn't good because of where we're at with our procurement.

01:23 - 54.329 What I will tell you is

01:23 - 57.365 there's also some violence associated with free phone calls.

01:23 - 01.603 And so we have to be very careful about thinking the free phone calls.

01:24 - 04.606 It sounds good. People don't understand.

01:24 - 09.544 Inmates like to get on the phone, control the phones, control who gets the phones?

01:24 - 11.880 It's something that we do see.

01:24 - 13.848 Some violent acts around.

01:24 - 16.618 The other piece is that.

01:24 - 19.854 Where was I going with the o. The tablets?

01:24 - 23.024 Once we do get our tablet rollout,

01:24 - 26.127 I think that will certainly help with communication.

01:24 - 28.563 Whether it's phone calls from your tablet.

01:24 - 31.032 You know, these are all things that because of the procurement,

01:24 - 34.035 we don't know yet exactly what that looks like,

01:24 - 39.040 but it could cost anywhere, depending on how many minutes we get folks free,

01:24 - 43.611 it could cost anywhere from 35 million to 87 million, depending on minutes.

01:24 - 45.914 So it comes with a huge price tag.

01:24 - 49.818 Some of the states that have actually done free phone calls have found

01:24 - 51.619 it's not sustainable.

01:24 - 54.689 They don't have the funding, and they found it to be a bit unmanageable

01:24 - 56.491 because we're watching in some other states

01:24 - 59.828 where they have done that and had to perhaps roll it back.

01:24 - 04.833 So there are some concerns around that, just to obviously be transparent

01:25 - 06.468 around that. Okay.

01:25 - 08.303 All right. Thank you. Thank you chair.

01:25 - 11.306 Chair.

01:25 - 11.973 Thanks, gentleman.

01:25 - 14.976 And recognizes Chairman Drusy.

01:25 - 19.247 Thank you.

01:25 - 23.118 So getting back to the budget, as I said from the outset,

01:25 - 26.955 you're looking for $142 million increase.

01:25 - 31.126 Just for the record, for the people who are listening, can you explain briefly

01:25 - 34.129 why that is needed?

01:25 - 39.801 Sure, I can do that.

01:25 - 42.637 This increase, as I mentioned earlier, what that savings

01:25 - 45.640 was in regards to the closed off facility.

01:25 - 49.544 So for the increase itself, this is only in

01:25 - 52.647 142 is all appropriations.

01:25 - 55.717 But I'll focus on the Sky fund because that's the one

01:25 - 58.419 primarily the closure affected.

01:25 - 03.925 So what you have there is you have $85.7 million that are automatically coming

01:26 - 07.896 through personnel expense for salary increases to our staff.

01:26 - 11.032 Of that 87, 60 million of it

01:26 - 14.135 is going to the correctional officers in that bargaining unit.

01:26 - 15.336 That's what that is.

01:26 - 20.208 And then 25.7 is all the other bargaining units and management.

01:26 - 22.677 So there you got 85.7.

01:26 - 24.679 You have an additional in food cost.

01:26 - 26.614 Food has escalated through the years.

01:26 - 30.518 Obviously we're all aware of this, but we've gone from 51,000,000 in 20

01:26 - 34.789 17 to 86.3 million here in this past year.

01:26 - 37.792 And we're going to hit over 90 million going into the future.

01:26 - 41.696 $5 million was allocated to food in our operating costs.

01:26 - 44.432 And then with utilities, actually, it's pretty modest.

01:26 - 49.204 Only $2.3 million was added to utility increases.

01:26 - 50.271 Contractual.

01:26 - 53.041 We all know where the energy costs have been going

01:26 - 56.611 so that as well as we had,

01:26 - 00.949 Arpa funding, the state local, fiscal relief fund,

01:27 - 05.153 where we got last year $10 million, we no longer receive that.

01:27 - 08.957 So they've added $10 million to put that back in.

01:27 - 12.026 That all equates to a cost to carry

01:27 - 15.029 of $103 million in the Sky fund.

01:27 - 18.132 And then your additional 39.5

01:27 - 21.102 million to get your 142

01:27 - 24.505 would be the cost to carry for all the other appropriations field

01:27 - 28.443 supervision, medical education, and the general government operation.

01:27 - 29.210 Okay.

01:27 - 33.414 And you're already in the process of realizing the savings from the two closures.

01:27 - 38.186 Yes. You're going to start seeing these now as the staff now,

01:27 - 42.123 we held positions open to provide landing places for our

01:27 - 46.761 for our staff at Rockville and Quiana to be able to select where they can go.

01:27 - 50.131 But, between the first and second choice, 99%

01:27 - 53.134 of the bargaining unit staff were able to get where they wanted to go.

01:27 - 56.904 I think it's 93% first choice and other 6% for second choice.

01:27 - 00.708 So we're pretty happy about that, that we we got people as close to home

01:28 - 01.743 as they wanted to.

01:28 - 05.313 So but as now those numbers drop down,

01:28 - 09.484 that that compliment of rock view quiana that's going to go away.

01:28 - 13.221 And now as the some of these facilities went over complement,

01:28 - 16.758 specifically better and how still

01:28 - 21.729 but as that that complement draws down those are basically like positions

01:28 - 23.398 we don't ever have to fill. Right, right, right.

01:28 - 26.334 So you'll see the personnel say, yeah, I'm just looking for a timeline.

01:28 - 29.337 It it'll be, but it will be an ongoing process.

01:28 - 31.773 You know, almost a fiscal year it will take.

01:28 - 32.073 All right.

01:28 - 33.775 Thank you. The tablets.

01:28 - 36.010 Is this something new?

01:28 - 37.945 You call them next gen tablets?

01:28 - 38.613 Or is this something

01:28 - 41.616 that's already been in place and you're upgrading or replacing?

01:28 - 45.086 Yeah, we currently have tablets, but of course, with the procurement,

01:28 - 48.122 we are hoping to give every inmate a tablet.

01:28 - 51.192 Currently, inmates purchase a tablet on their own

01:28 - 54.362 and this will give them a tablet. Yes.

01:28 - 58.032 And doc will pay for that with taxpayer dollars.

01:28 - 01.035 Vendor. Vendor. Yes. The vendor pays for.

01:29 - 02.570 Vendor pays for it.

01:29 - 04.872 Okay. And every inmate will have a tablet.

01:29 - 07.742 How do you monitor their usage? Like what?

01:29 - 09.711 What can they do with that?

01:29 - 13.381 We already have monitoring systems in place so those will continue.

01:29 - 16.551 Our security staff will obviously look.

01:29 - 21.356 And this has been a big part of the procurement actually that piece,

01:29 - 25.593 that security piece is any any type of thing like so these aren't,

01:29 - 27.595 aren't being purchased with taxpayer dollars.

01:29 - 30.365 The tablets. Yes.

01:29 - 35.002 No. The, the the whole contract is it cost about $2.5 million.

01:29 - 35.570 Okay.

01:29 - 39.240 A lot of the money that the vendor makes there's, they're receiving,

01:29 - 41.342 the inmates have to pay for their time on the phone.

01:29 - 42.777 They have to pay for the messaging.

01:29 - 43.211 Okay.

01:29 - 46.447 So or if they want to do downloads of books or whatnot

01:29 - 50.218 or use the video visitation, but they're able to do this on their cell

01:29 - 51.886 with that tablet.

01:29 - 53.321 Now, there might be security reasons

01:29 - 56.290 why they take a tablet away for behavioral issues.

01:29 - 59.327 But there are security Intel components

01:29 - 03.865 that are able to analyze, potential threats from communication.

01:30 - 04.832 Okay.

01:30 - 09.504 I'm concerned with the increase in staff violence up 77%.

01:30 - 11.372 What is the actual number?

01:30 - 12.540 I looked at the chart.

01:30 - 15.543 It looks like around 38 cases maybe.

01:30 - 19.781 Is that is that accurate embedded on staff source? Yes.

01:30 - 23.951 We had 35, 3520, 25.

01:30 - 27.855 And, can you just quickly, tell me what you're doing to correct

01:30 - 28.890 that or reduce that?

01:30 - 32.126 Well,

01:30 - 33.961 like I said, with the with the violence

01:30 - 37.064 reduction, that was something that really was looked at,

01:30 - 40.201 you know, different things like the new lock program.

01:30 - 43.204 We also microphone implemented some policies on restrictions.

01:30 - 46.207 Were the off inmates.

01:30 - 50.111 If inmates turn anything in no weapon, they can now be restricted

01:30 - 54.182 from, possessing that something like a razor blade we've always done.

01:30 - 58.719 But now that includes locks or extension cords or anything along the lines.

01:30 - 01.989 So that's another thing.

01:31 - 04.859 De-escalate training or training for staff?

01:31 - 06.494 Be huge. Okay.

01:31 - 07.528 I just want to make sure you're

01:31 - 09.964 taking the necessary steps to to bring that number down.

01:31 - 14.335 And then lastly, chairman, if you would indulge me, the

01:31 - 18.139 the drugs in the facilities, paper,

01:31 - 23.778 I thought there was a process in place previously where the mail for inmates

01:31 - 28.516 went to another area where it was processed or copied,

01:31 - 31.652 and they weren't actually getting the document itself.

01:31 - 33.087 Is that not the case anymore?

01:31 - 36.090 How are they getting this paper into the facilities?

01:31 - 39.927 That so is, with the exception of legal mail,

01:31 - 43.464 they still get books, look at magazines, they still get newspapers.

01:31 - 46.667 Although everything that I said, with the exception

01:31 - 49.670 of newspapers, goes through our security processing center.

01:31 - 51.272 And that's all checked.

01:31 - 54.775 But it's it's still what, even with the legal mail we've been catching,

01:31 - 56.878 you know, coming in through legal mail,

01:31 - 00.781 that's a big area of our focus now on trying to catch it.

01:32 - 04.385 But then also, you know, visitors write in.

01:32 - 08.689 Is there a process then to hold the people sending it in accountable?

01:32 - 10.525 I mean, absolutely, yeah.

01:32 - 14.295 I, the Bureau of, Intelligence and Investigations,

01:32 - 15.663 we'll make

01:32 - 18.666 cases and we've arrested or they've

01:32 - 22.470 assisted in arresting civilians for doing just that.

01:32 - 26.507 And inmates knew we had 116 inmate charges last year.

01:32 - 30.845 So in the vast majority of those would be obviously assault weapons, drugs.

01:32 - 32.880 Okay. All right.

01:32 - 33.314 Thank you.

01:32 - 34.682 I appreciate you being here today.

01:32 - 37.485 Share with you, chair.

01:32 - 37.685 Thanks.

01:32 - 39.220 The gentleman and, Chairman

01:32 - 42.323 Harris is trusting me as the copilot to land the plane here today.

01:32 - 46.060 So God bless the Commonwealth.

01:32 - 49.964 Just, that should be an easy landing.

01:32 - 53.034 How many inmates were seen in front of a parole board?

01:32 - 56.070 And how many inmates were approved or denied

01:32 - 59.073 in 2024 or 2025?

01:33 - 05.813 So the question is, how many, inmates did we see?

01:33 - 10.952 We interviewed, 12,310 inmates.

01:33 - 14.689 And so so there was a and then in it

01:33 - 16.657 and in

01:33 - 19.860 addition to that, we had about a thousand or so, just over a thousand,

01:33 - 23.197 what they call short sentence parole, that they don't actually get an interview.

01:33 - 26.601 Our overall parole rate is 49%.

01:33 - 28.869 Thank you very much.

01:33 - 30.905 And then

01:33 - 33.908 one last question is, is every hearing held

01:33 - 37.044 virtually or or some.

01:33 - 39.113 Is that just done in some facilities?

01:33 - 41.682 We hold our, our hearings virtually.

01:33 - 45.886 We went to that after Covid and found out that it saved us a lot of money.

01:33 - 49.023 And, and it was actually much more efficient.

01:33 - 52.326 And, and so what we lose with the face to face

01:33 - 55.930 is, by far, I mean, our our systems are pretty good.

01:33 - 59.700 So overall, it's much more efficient and, much better process

01:33 - 01.068 for us to do it this way.

01:34 - 01.435 Very good.

01:34 - 02.737 I appreciate that data.

01:34 - 07.341 And, your response and everyone for, for testifying and to your team for always

01:34 - 10.945 being so responsive to my office, and to the offices of others.

01:34 - 12.513 I appreciate your service.

01:34 - 16.751 And with that, this, hearing will adjourn

01:34 - 20.354 and will reconvene on Monday at 10 a.m.

01:34 - 23.224 for our hearing with the office of the Attorney General.

01:34 - 24.392 Thank you. Have a nice afternoon.

01:34 - 47.615 And. I.