00:08 - Our guest today is Jonathan Lady.

00:10 - He is a museum associate with the Fort Pitt Museum.

00:13 - Jonathan, what does it mean to be a naturalist?

00:17 - To be a naturalist means that

00:19 - you kind of study everything as it pertains to nature.

00:23 - I mean, we have, like, very specific, specialties today and like, biology

00:29 - and physics and chemistry and, you know, some people even focus on, like,

00:33 - specific species of animals, like they're they're

00:36 - a specialist in, like, say, African lions or something like that.

00:39 - But in the 18th century,

00:41 - a natural is pretty much just studied everything as it pertained to nature.

00:44 - So, I mean, it's a very general, discipline that

00:47 - just kind of covered everything as it pertained to nature.

00:51 - And it was this interesting blend of science and art

00:55 - because they're not only studying the natural processes

00:58 - of like, plants and animals and assessing, like, the physical terrain.

01:02 - But they're also writing travel logs and kind of having

01:05 - philosophical insights about the existence of life and stuff.

01:09 - So, yeah, that's that's essentially the essence of, of being a naturalist

01:14 - who is considered America's first naturalist.

01:18 - So that that is a great question.

01:20 - It it is somewhat debated, I think, because there is John Bartram.

01:25 - But he has more of a focus on just botany.

01:29 - He looks at mainly just plants.

01:31 - But some people say that because of his expertise in botany

01:35 - that he would be America's first naturalist. But it's done.

01:38 - William actually shows an interest in both plants and animals,

01:43 - and so some would consider that he was more of a naturalist than even

01:47 - his father was, because he has more of that broad view of nature.

01:52 - And he's also a very skilled artist.

01:54 - And so some of his drawings that, exist today are still like very,

01:59 - very good examples of like, natural history art.

02:03 - So some would say, John, a good many I think would say William.

02:06 - But yeah. So somewhat debate.

02:09 - Let's start with talking about John Bartram.

02:11 - What was his early life like in Philadelphia.

02:14 - So he was

02:16 - born into a Quaker family, and he really is

02:20 - more of a, a farmer, like he doesn't have a whole lot of formal education.

02:25 - And but he has this natural like fascination with plants.

02:29 - And so he's self-taught.

02:31 - He's very well read.

02:33 - But yeah, he, he focuses more on, on plant specimens.

02:37 - He did consider at one point being a physician.

02:40 - And so he does kind of have an interest in like medicinal herbs and stuff too.

02:45 - But yeah, that's sort of what his early life is, is like

02:49 - in, in Philadelphia, kind of just being being a farmer and collecting things

02:53 - kind of around their farm and in Philly, like along the Schuylkill River.

02:57 - When does he officially get into

02:59 - working with plants and doing some more of that botanical work?

03:04 - So it's it's hard to pinpoint

03:06 - an exact year when he does get fascinated with with plants.

03:11 - But eventually he does like in the 1730s,

03:15 - he gets introduced to Peter Collinson, from from a distance.

03:20 - And, Peter Collinson is the one who says, like, hey, like someone told me

03:25 - that you you're really good at, like, collecting plants and stuff, and I've,

03:29 - I'm interested in botany and I've got a lot of people here

03:31 - over in Europe that are also interested in botany,

03:33 - specifically with like, North American flora.

03:36 - So if you want to send things my way, that'd be great.

03:39 - So kind of just in general, like the 1730s is when that relationship

03:43 - starts up and, he, he starts sending things to, to Peter Collinson

03:48 - at that time, was anyone else in America interested in botanical work?

03:53 - I would say

03:54 - that in general, there was an interest, across the population,

03:59 - in natural history, because this is kind of during the, the Age of Enlightenment.

04:03 - And so there is this interest, there's growing interest in the natural world.

04:08 - So I would say a lot of people had this, like general interest in botany.

04:13 - But John does kind of rise to the top there,

04:16 - because of his relationship with, with Peter Collins

04:20 - and because a lot of people like physicians and stuff in Philadelphia

04:23 - and other major cities, they have this kind of far interest in, in botany.

04:28 - But John's kind of one of the few who actually kind of gets out into,

04:32 - the wilds and is collecting them himself.

04:35 - And eventually Peter Collinson ends up going to King George

04:39 - and persuades him to name John the colonial botanist, to the king.

04:43 - What does this mean?

04:45 - So that was huge for for John Bartram.

04:49 - So that essentially means like he's being he's

04:52 - getting royal recognition from the king for being the botanist.

04:56 - But that in turn means

04:58 - that he's essentially being called like, the best botanist in America.

05:02 - And his job would include

05:06 - being the person who sends the specimens from North America

05:10 - to the king, and he gets a pension of 50 pounds a year.

05:14 - So that that helps him kind of fund his collecting expeditions,

05:18 - as well as elevate his his social status here in the colonies.

05:22 - Now, before we get into these expeditions, what did the public think at the time?

05:27 - Were plants of any interest to them?

05:30 - Yeah, yeah.

05:31 - So there was this kind of just general scientific interest

05:34 - in, in plans to learn more about the natural world.

05:37 - But, even, merchants and, and people kind of in that field

05:42 - had a commercial interest in like, what we could we use these plants

05:46 - for profit or physicians like what we, what they could use them

05:49 - for medicinal purposes and stuff like that.

05:52 - So in general, yeah, I think there was this general interest in, in botany.

05:58 - So let's talk about some of his travels.

06:01 - Where does he end up traveling to?

06:04 - So his initial travels

06:06 - were probably in like what were in like Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, places

06:11 - that he could kind of easily get to, from his farm there in Philadelphia.

06:16 - But eventually, he does go a little bit further.

06:19 - He goes to places like the new Jersey Pine Barrens.

06:22 - Yeah.

06:22 - The Catskill Mountains in New York, throughout New England,

06:27 - even around the Great Lakes in southern Canada.

06:30 - But he and his son, William, after he gets that title of,

06:34 - botanist to the king, they would then go to East Florida

06:39 - and explore around there,

06:40 - because that was a newly acquired territory for the British,

06:44 - after their victory in the Seven Years War.

06:46 - So they were interested in in what was their

06:50 - what exactly are they doing on these trips?

06:53 - So, collecting specimens.

06:56 - Definitely plant specimens.

06:57 - But on the ones that William accompanied him on, he's also observing

07:02 - the wildlife, and he's, he's drawing some of these things because John didn't

07:05 - really have too much of a gift of drawing, but William definitely did.

07:10 - So they're they're documenting these things,

07:13 - because a lot of these plants were previously unknown, to Western science.

07:18 - And then they're sending these plans to, wealthy patrons in Europe.

07:22 - And through that, Peter Collinson connection and,

07:27 - yeah, they wanted those plants because they had an interest in botany

07:31 - and they had their own gardens.

07:33 - There was sort of this garden movement that was,

07:35 - going through Europe at the time.

07:36 - And so wealthy Europeans wanted the most exotic plants, in their gardens.

07:42 - And so, yeah, that's, that's in essence, what they were doing, a collecting

07:47 - documentary documenting identifying new plants and animals.

07:52 - Were there any significant discoveries that were made during these travels?

07:56 - I would say that their most significant discovery

07:59 - would have been, for a plant called the Franklin Tree.

08:03 - The Franklin tree was something that

08:06 - John and William discovered on their first trip to East Florida.

08:11 - But later, William would return to East Florida

08:14 - and actually get, like,

08:15 - a seed sample for it, because the first time,

08:18 - it wasn't flowering when they discovered it.

08:19 - So they couldn't get a seed to bring back, to Bartram Garden in Philadelphia.

08:24 - Live plants were very difficult to, to transport.

08:28 - And so the Franklin tree, you know, hasn't

08:31 - been sighted in the wild, I think, since the 1790s.

08:34 - And so John and William are credited with saving that plant from extinction.

08:40 - And so all living descendants of the Franklin tree

08:44 - actually come from that one sample that John and William brought back,

08:48 - or William brought back from his expedition to East Florida,

08:52 - at the time, were

08:53 - these expeditions dangerous?

08:56 - Yes. Considerably.

08:59 - Because they didn't really know that what was there at the time.

09:02 - And so you had an extreme weather, difficult terrain,

09:07 - run ins with the, different flora and fauna.

09:11 - Some of the Native American tribes were

09:14 - hostile to, European expansion.

09:17 - And so they, they had a lot to contend with.

09:20 - And, John Bartram, and William actually had a fear of lightning.

09:26 - And so, again, that that weather sometimes would keep them up at night.

09:29 - William also had a fear of alligators.

09:32 - So he mentions how that would keep him up at night when they were down in Florida.

09:37 - So yeah, it was it was dangerous work.

09:40 - But they, they loved nature.

09:42 - And so, they, they persevered. And

09:46 - so we talked a lot about John Bartram.

09:48 - Now let's shift and talk to his son William.

09:50 - What was his early life like?

09:53 - So William was kind of, shy.

09:57 - He was he was a son of eight of John,

10:01 - second wife, and so he was shy.

10:04 - John was a little bit more social.

10:07 - But William did show

10:10 - an early interest in plant collecting, I think, largely because of

10:15 - of John taking him on some of these early, expeditions

10:19 - and even early on showed that, early propensity for the for the drawing.

10:25 - But. Yeah. And in general, he was he was more of a shy type.

10:28 - I think John was he wanted to make those social connections again with, like

10:34 - Peter Collinson and, you know, being able to get that title of botanist to the king

10:38 - was just like, I think a huge high point for, for his life.

10:42 - But William, again, he was he was more shy and tended

10:45 - to, I think, seek more, more solitude.

10:50 - He just he loved just being alone in nature.

10:53 - Does John ever encourage William

10:55 - to pursue a career in botanical work, like in.

10:59 - So, no.

11:00 - Surprisingly, no.

11:01 - You would you would think that because John had, actually managed

11:05 - to get a pretty successful career with his botanical work that he,

11:08 - he might have encouraged him to do the same thing,

11:11 - but it was very difficult, to make a career as a botanist.

11:15 - Back in the 18th century.

11:16 - I mean, you pretty much either had to be independently wealthy

11:20 - to fund these expeditions on your own,

11:23 - or you had to have a, a wealthy patron, to fund them.

11:27 - So it wasn't necessarily considered stable work.

11:30 - And I think what he wanted for his son was a more stable career.

11:36 - And so he did encourage him to go into other fields,

11:40 - like being a, printer or a merchant or a physician or a farmer, like himself.

11:47 - But unfortunately, none of those things really, took for William.

11:51 - William.

11:53 - He he tried a couple of times to make it as a farmer or as a merchant.

11:58 - And nothing really stuck.

12:00 - I think eventually John realized that,

12:04 - what William's passion was, was nature.

12:07 - And so he uses his social connections to kind of get William, a wealthy patron

12:13 - in Europe and, funds William's expedition to East Florida

12:17 - from 1773 to 1777.

12:20 - Let's talk about what what is some of the work that William does?

12:26 - So while William is on

12:28 - expedition, he he is collecting plants like collecting

12:32 - and identifying plants, but he's also collecting or not collecting as much.

12:35 - But he's identifying and drawing, wildlife as well.

12:39 - And so we got he there's some great sketches and some great

12:42 - natural history artwork that he brings back from, those expeditions.

12:48 - But also very interestingly, he's doing kind of like ethnographic studies.

12:52 - So he is looking like he's having connections

12:56 - and observing the Seminole Indians or Native Americans in Florida.

13:00 - Also the Cherokee and the Choctaw.

13:04 - So that's pretty notable.

13:05 - And in his book that he eventually publishes later,

13:10 - so his book kind of stands out as not just this interesting book of like,

13:14 - scientific observations, but early American literature

13:18 - and ethnographic studies with, like, early Native American culture.

13:21 - And just this very interesting window into what life was like in the southeast,

13:27 - what would become the United States around the time of the American Revolution?

13:31 - How does he decide where he's going to go

13:33 - to explore the different plant life and the seeds that are there?

13:38 - So I think

13:38 - part of it could be personal interest.

13:41 - But a lot of it, too, I think, is just where these patrons are interested in.

13:47 - So, as I mentioned earlier, Great Britain, got East and West Florida

13:53 - would just be present day Florida today, after the seven Years War.

13:57 - And they were very interested in, in what was there.

14:00 - And so, John and William go there in 1765.

14:05 - William goes in to like North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia,

14:08 - and also East Florida from 73 to 77.

14:12 - Again, just to document what is in this newly acquired territory.

14:17 - So it's kind of an interesting blend of like where they want to go,

14:21 - but also where the patrons want to go to since they're funding these expeditions.

14:25 - During his travels, William carries a journal with him.

14:29 - What what all was documented in here.

14:32 - So in his journal, he probably has like the sketches

14:36 - of the plants that he sees, the animals that he sees,

14:39 - the different Native American cultures that, he encounters as well.

14:43 - But again, the very interesting thing about naturalist

14:47 - is they not only are scientifically observing,

14:50 - but they're also giving these, like these travel logs of where they're going,

14:54 - these philosophical insights and personal insights.

14:57 - And so there's a lot of his personal reflection in there as well.

15:02 - What are his drawings like?

15:04 - Are they very and detailed?

15:06 - Are they completed when he sees a plant or does he finish them when he gets back?

15:10 - What are they like.

15:11 - So William's drawings are actually quite unique.

15:15 - For the time, many scientists were pretty much

15:18 - just only focused on the specimen itself.

15:22 - Normally they're they're sent the specimen.

15:24 - So that's kind of all they have to go off on.

15:27 - What makes William unique is he's out in nature

15:29 - and he takes the time to draw the animal in its natural environment,

15:34 - which was something that many naturalists hadn't really done up to that point.

15:39 - So he's very notable for, again, drawing the animal in its natural environment

15:44 - and showing how these animals relate to their, to their natural environment.

15:49 - Does he draw every plant and every animal

15:52 - he comes across, or how does he decide what he's going to put in that journal?

15:56 - So I don't think he draws everything that he, he comes across.

16:01 - I think mostly he, he chooses to sketch what really stands out to him.

16:05 - So it could be, again, something that just maybe caught his eye.

16:09 - Maybe he sees this, like, pool into ecological

16:13 - relationship, like, between an animal and a particular plant.

16:17 - Maybe he looks at something and thinks maybe there's a medicinal purpose here.

16:22 - So I'm going to take special care with, with this.

16:25 - So could be a number of things.

16:27 - But yeah, I think for the most part, it's just kind of whatever sticks out to him.

16:33 - Does he have a favorite plant or animal to draw?

16:36 - Is there like repeated drawings in the journal that would maybe indicate that,

16:40 - not that

16:42 - I could see, but I would think that the Franklin tree

16:46 - that I mentioned earlier probably had some, special significance to him

16:50 - because, again, that was something that in 1765

16:54 - they saw that plant and they wanted to bring a seed back.

16:57 - But both John and William were kind of disappointed that, they couldn't.

17:01 - And so William does make it a special point when he goes back in 17

17:06 - between 73 and 77 to get a seed of that plant.

17:11 - Like he still remembers that plant years later and wants to,

17:15 - bring it back to, to Bartram Garden.

17:19 - Let's talk about the Bartram boxes.

17:21 - What were they? What was inside of them?

17:24 - So, Bartram boxes,

17:26 - where these kind of little square wooden boxes

17:29 - that might have up to 100 seeds and maybe even like, a dried specimen

17:35 - that, John particularly is, is sending these boxes to, to Europe.

17:41 - Again, we mentioned that relationship with Peter Collinson, that he has.

17:45 - And Collinson is sort of that that middleman that's connecting

17:49 - John with the wealthy patrons in Europe.

17:52 - And so the wealthy patrons would essentially go to Collinson and say,

17:55 - hey, I want North American flora for my for my garden.

18:01 - And then Peter Collinson reaches out to John and says, hey,

18:04 - I need one of your boxes pretty much to send to one of these patrons.

18:08 - And so John goes out and he collects these seeds,

18:11 - puts them in there again, maybe throws, a dried specimen.

18:14 - And, that was pretty much it, because, again, dried,

18:18 - y plants were very difficult to, to transport across the Atlantic Ocean.

18:23 - So it was mostly seeds that would have been in those in those boxes.

18:28 - Did anyone help to sponsor the Bartram Travels?

18:32 - Yes.

18:33 - Early on, Peter Collinson is kind of John's, patron.

18:38 - But then later on is as John, kind of grows

18:42 - in notoriety, gets that title to being, The Botanist to the King.

18:46 - More people are paying, for those Bartram boxes, but,

18:51 - William's expedition to East

18:54 - Florida, well, the Carolinas, Georgia and East Florida from 73 to 77

18:58 - was actually sponsored by a doctor, John Foster Gill, in, in London.

19:03 - And so he essentially that funds William's expedition to there.

19:08 - But yeah, there were wealthy Europeans that were, sponsoring the barge rooms

19:12 - to, to go out and, collect because they,

19:16 - they had a special skill in doing that.

19:18 - And earlier, you briefly mentioned

19:20 - the Bartram travel book that he wrote.

19:23 - What was the content of this book?

19:26 - So Bathroom's travels, was

19:29 - mostly, I guess you could argue, was a travel log,

19:32 - but it's filled with his descriptions of the plants that he sees, the animals

19:38 - that he sees, the Native American tribes that he encounters as well.

19:44 - And also philosophical insights and, and stuff like that.

19:48 - And so, again, it's it is a significant piece of work

19:52 - because it shows you kind of like what the natural history of the southeast,

19:57 - what would become the southeast United States was at the time, but also,

20:01 - the Native Americans

20:03 - and the Native American cultures that were in the southeast at that time.

20:06 - But also, it's a great work of literature.

20:09 - It's a great work of art.

20:10 - I mean, it is just so many things that it is a gem and a rare glimpse,

20:15 - I think, into what

20:16 - life was like in in the southeast at the time of the American Revolution.

20:21 - And around 1778, William Bartram returns to Philadelphia.

20:26 - How does his life unfold from there?

20:29 - So I,

20:30 - I think first I should mention that when he returns from his trip,

20:35 - that collecting trip from 73 to 77,

20:39 - after he returns, I think it's a matter of months,

20:42 - that John, his father, passes away,

20:47 - because this is during the American Revolutionary War.

20:51 - The British are invading Philadelphia.

20:55 - And, John, this is sort of the speculation.

20:59 - John is so worried that the British are going to wreck his garden,

21:04 - the the garden that he worked so hard to,

21:08 - to build and cultivate that, the

21:12 - the speculation here is that that stress kind of led to his, his early death.

21:17 - But William is there.

21:19 - Luckily, I think, William is there to, say goodbye to his father.

21:24 - So, I mean, when he returns,

21:26 - that is one of the first things that he has to to deal with.

21:31 - But after that, he he lives that Bartram House.

21:34 - He works, on Bartram Garden,

21:38 - kind of cultivating that after his father passes away.

21:41 - And then he's also working on getting his book published,

21:44 - because once his book gets published, it is

21:47 - it is widely read throughout the colonies and Europe.

21:50 - And he actually does.

21:52 - That's kind of what really elevates him socially.

21:54 - People know the name William Bartram, for his book,

21:58 - which has a much longer title, but it's often

22:00 - just known as that by the shorthand of Bartram Travels.

22:03 - And yeah, he, he essentially spends the rest of his days at, at Bartram House,

22:09 - at the farm, cultivating the garden and, yeah.

22:14 - Is the Bartram Gardens still around today?

22:17 - Yes, it is still in in Philadelphia.

22:20 - You can visit it today.

22:22 - They have the Bartram House there.

22:25 - They have the, the historic gardens that features,

22:28 - not just a lot of, North American flora, but you'll see things from

22:33 - around the world to, it's also notable for having some good,

22:37 - recreational things, too.

22:38 - It's got the only access to the tidal Schuylkill River, wetlands.

22:43 - And so you can kayak there and stuff.

22:46 - So, kind of sounds like it would be a fun day to to spend a day.

22:51 - What lasting impact does the Bartram work have on the world today?

22:55 - And botany as a whole?

22:58 - So John Bartram, I think his legacy is

23:01 - he gets to be known as the father of American botany.

23:05 - He really, catapults that study in, in the colonies.

23:10 - And really,

23:11 - it was already kind of popular,

23:13 - as I mentioned, due to the Age of Enlightenment

23:15 - and that growing interest in the natural world.

23:17 - But like he, he just introduces so many new North American plans

23:21 - to, to people and in the colonies and Europeans and stuff

23:25 - that he really, catapults to the field there.

23:29 - We mentioned Bartram Garden still around today,

23:32 - and that's certainly a lasting legacy for him as well.

23:34 - He, he and William, worked very hard to, to cultivate that

23:39 - and make sure that it would stand, I think, the test of time.

23:42 - But, William, his book far trumps travel.

23:46 - I think it's his lasting legacy, too.

23:49 - Again, just that that very interesting travel log combined with the,

23:53 - the science and the art and just giving that rare,

23:57 - rare window into what life was like during that time period.

24:01 - But again, he's he also has that botanical influence

24:04 - because he identified, like, hundreds of new, plants

24:09 - that were previously unknown to, to Western science.

24:12 - So, I mean, absolutely, they they have such a huge impact

24:17 - on natural history and botanical work, in 18th century America.

24:22 - Now, for the last question, I just wanted to talk about

24:25 - how did you get interested in the work and the lives of John and William Bartram?

24:31 - So my personal interest comes more from I.

24:35 - I totally pace with the idea of the naturalist and natural history.

24:39 - I have a very general interest in just, nature as a whole,

24:43 - but I love both science and art, so I, I love the fact that it is

24:48 - this blend of science and art, and they go to these exotic places

24:52 - and travel, so again, love the science, love the artwork.

24:57 - I love the exotic places they go and naturalists

25:00 - really just kind of have everything that, that I'm interested in.

25:04 - And I specifically got interested in John and William Bartram,

25:07 - because when you look at natural history,

25:09 - you kind of take a step back and look at the discipline more generally.

25:12 - Many of those 18th century naturalists are from Europe,

25:16 - and they're going all over the world.

25:17 - And it's it's still very interesting.

25:19 - It's very fascinating.

25:20 - But, I love that John and William Bartram are kind of like America's

25:25 - first homegrown naturalists.

25:28 - And they're they're doing it in a time when natural history is very big

25:31 - in Europe.

25:31 - So to have two colonists essentially

25:35 - kind of get elevated to in that field of natural history to be

25:39 - seen is on par, even with the naturalists of Europe is very cool.

25:43 - I mean, Carl Linnaeus, who we get that kind of Linnaean taxonomy from,

25:48 - like like the domestic cat, like Felix Catus like that,

25:52 - that sort of Latin sounding name that comes from, from Linnaeus.

25:57 - Even Carl Linnaeus said that John Bartram was the greatest botanist in the world.

26:01 - And, that's that is high praise from a giant in the field of natural history.

26:07 - We've been speaking with Jonathan Lady, a museum associate with the Fort

26:11 - Pitt Museum. Thank you for your time today.

26:14 - Thank you. Hey.