00:12 - We're here with Matthew Holliday executive director of the Pennsylvania bar association

00:16 - and William Christman

00:17 - deputy executive director and general counsel of the pa bar association can you

00:22 - both walk us through the process of judicial elections.

00:25 - Certainly and Ellen thank you for having us

00:27 - today we very much appreciate the opportunity

00:30 - a judicial elections occurred of various different levels so most communities have a

00:36 - magisterial district judge we call them MDJs

00:39 - and they are elected every six years

00:42 - and that is a partisan election although they can cross file

00:46 - and then we have Court of common pleas level so

00:48 - there are sixty seven counties in Pennsylvania

00:51 - there are a couple counties that share a bench in fact there's three counties

00:55 - specifically that share with three other counties so a total of six

00:59 - but for the rest of them they all have their own

01:02 - group of judges that are elected just by the citizens of that county and they run

01:06 - every ten years and then there's retention

01:08 - elections which we'll get to later i would imagine

01:11 - and then we have elections for the commonwealth court which is a statewide appellate

01:16 - court the superior court which is another statewide appellate court

01:19 - and then the Pennsylvania supreme court

01:21 - each of those are ten year terms with the possibility of retention

01:25 - they are also partisan elections but unlike court of common pleas or magisterial

01:29 - district judge they're not able to cross file which means you can't run

01:33 - on the republican primary and the Democratic party

01:35 - primary you have to pick one and stick with it through the process.

01:40 - What qualifications must a person have to run for judge

01:43 - so that depends on the level of judge that you're running for.

01:47 - Matt mentioned MDJs or magisterial district judges

01:50 - they are

01:51 - typically lawyers but they don't have to be

01:53 - and

01:54 - it

01:54 - if you are not a lawyer and you want to be a magisterial district judge.

01:58 - You are able to take a course and pass a test

02:01 - and as long as you pass that test you are able to sit

02:04 - as one of those judges those are sort of the front line

02:06 - lowest court in Pennsylvania.

02:09 - Everyone else

02:10 - court of common pleas up through the appellate courts

02:13 - they're just required to be lawyers

02:14 - that's all

02:15 - how many terms can a judge serve in Pennsylvania?

02:19 - While there are no term limits

02:21 - however

02:22 - they do have a mandatory requirement to retire at seventy five

02:27 - certain judges can then stay on as senior judges after seventy five but only until

02:32 - seventy eight and then they're completely required to.

02:36 - Term out age out

02:37 - but if somebody managed to get themselves elected judge at twenty five they'd be

02:41 - able to do five terms five ten year terms before they'd have to give it up.

02:46 - You mentioned

02:47 - judges having to

02:48 - pick as or a

02:50 - republican or democrat and judges are

02:52 - supposed to remain nonpartisan what can they talk about on the campaign trail

02:56 - when these issues come up

02:57 - sure so

02:58 - it is sort of

03:00 - weird the way that it's

03:01 - set up

03:02 - in that a judge

03:04 - is supposed to be non-political

03:05 - but they have to run with one of the major political parties.

03:09 - So there are very specific rules in the

03:12 - code of judicial conduct that

03:13 - state what a judge or judge candidate can and cannot do

03:17 - they very clearly cannot

03:20 - Comment on any proceedings or matters that may come before them if they're a judge

03:24 - but they can attend political fundraisers

03:27 - political events with other political candidates of their same party

03:31 - with one caveat judges who are running for office are

03:34 - not allowed to solicit money for themselves which is

03:39 - a difficult thing they have to have a political

03:40 - action committee that will do it for them

03:43 - and these races get expensive

03:45 - i think i saw an article

03:47 - that the last supreme court race in 2023

03:52 - They spent nineteen point five million dollars so not being able to ask for money but

03:55 - having to have money is is a hard thing for them to do that they're always combating

03:59 - one thing I'll add is bill mentioned that they are allowed to go to political events

04:03 - and fundraisers only while they're running

04:06 - once they win and get the black robe on their shoulders they are banned from

04:10 - attending anything even remotely political all

04:13 - they wait until nine years later when they're up for

04:16 - the retention process

04:18 - let's talk about the retention process what is it and how often do they happen.

04:23 - So retention happens every ten years

04:26 - and

04:27 - every other political candidate when they're up for reelection

04:30 - it's a competitive race it's one person versus another

04:35 - any judicial retention race however it's simply a yes or no question should this

04:39 - judge remain a judge for the next ten years or not.

04:43 - Overwhelmingly judges

04:45 - win retention

04:47 - and

04:47 - it has happened that it it hasn't

04:49 - but.

04:51 - It is overwhelming that those usually succeed

04:54 - and then

04:56 - if they do fail if the voters say no this person should not remain a judge

05:00 - a vacancy is created and then two years later

05:04 - judicial elections only occur in odd numbered years

05:06 - there will be a competitive race for that seat

05:09 - and one thing i would add as magisterial district judges are not eligible for

05:12 - retention so they run every six years that they want to stay on the bench

05:16 - as a person against another person election

05:19 - it's only court of common pleas commonwealth superior and supreme that are as

05:23 - eligible for retention elections

05:25 - your organization the pa bar association offers recommendations on each judicial

05:30 - candidate how does this process work

05:32 - so we have an independent judicial evaluation commission

05:36 - that exists

05:37 - it's made up of both attorneys and non attorneys or lay people we would say

05:42 - from across the commonwealth we ensure that there's geographic diversity

05:46 - we ensure that there's all sorts of different diverse perspectives.

05:50 - In the membership itself

05:52 - and then of course we also ensure that there are

05:54 - Republicans democrats and independents serving on it

05:57 - and we try to keep it very balanced

05:59 - they don't report to our board they don't report to me

06:02 - they are able to evaluate these candidates

06:05 - and do it with the utmost integrity and almost in a vacuum

06:09 - of any type of pressure that could be applied to them

06:12 - and do you want to talk a little bit about what that

06:14 - process looks like yeah sure so every candidate is asked

06:18 - to full fill out a questionnaire

06:20 - that.

06:21 - Runs the gamut from asking for basic demographic information to questions about

06:26 - whether there's anything that we should know about that

06:29 - we won't share with the public but may impact

06:31 - their ability to do the job as a judge or not

06:34 - and then once that questionnaire comes back in.

06:37 - It's assigned to a three person panel

06:39 - we call them investigative panels and that panel will then dig into the questionnaire

06:44 - they are required to interview lawyers.

06:46 - Who know or have worked with or have

06:49 - been in front of a judge

06:51 - Candidate

06:52 - and they're required if the

06:53 - the candidate is a judge they're required to look at

06:56 - certain opinions of that judge to make sure that

06:58 - they are sound and consistent with the law

07:01 - and then once that panel reviews everything

07:05 - and comes up with its recommendation they give a recommendation to the full

07:08 - judicial evaluation commission

07:10 - who holds an interview with the candidate

07:13 - and then ultimately

07:15 - rates them.

07:16 - Highly recommended, recommended,

07:18 - or not recommended.

07:20 - What value do these recommendations serve for people who are voting for these judges

07:25 - we believe that a lot of Pennsylvanians

07:27 - are looking at the website p a vote smart.

07:31 - Dot org and we think that

07:34 - there are plenty of

07:35 - different civic institutions league of women

07:37 - voters the committee of seventy all sorts of

07:40 - groups across the commonwealth who very actively encourage voters to take a look at

07:44 - what the Pennsylvania bar association has said

07:47 - one thing that i'm not sure that we clarified earlier

07:50 - is these.

07:53 - Recommendations are only

07:54 - eligible are available to candidates seeking supreme superior and commonwealth

07:59 - we don't issue any recommendations for Court of Common Pleas

08:02 - or a magisterial district judge however there are a number of

08:06 - county bar associations that do have their own processes

08:09 - to evaluate local candidates for those offices

08:12 - and we encourage people to familiarize themselves with that as well

08:16 - specifically because

08:17 - and this is actually a major topic in the news right now

08:20 - in primaries currently in Pennsylvania

08:23 - if you were running

08:24 - because you live in cumberland county it would

08:26 - say your name and cumberland county underneath it

08:29 - cumberland county doesn't have nearly the same number

08:31 - of voters as a Philadelphia or in allegheny or Chester

08:35 - or a Lancaster county or Montgomery county something to that effect

08:38 - so a lot of people might look at a primary ballot and just say oh i'm going to vote

08:43 - for this candidate because they live in the county i do

08:45 - and of course that's not exactly a great way to select

08:48 - who your future judges are going to be.

08:51 - So there's a big move.

08:53 - In the legislature currently to change that process and take the municipality or the

08:58 - the county distinction off the ballot

09:01 - and hopefully that will

09:03 - encourage voters to look into

09:05 - information sources like pa bar's recommendations and like the local county

09:09 - recommendation so that they're really making the best possible choices

09:13 - yeah and i think

09:14 - the real value also is that hopefully most people in

09:17 - Pennsylvania don't have to deal with a lawyer or judge

09:20 - and we are an organization of lawyers with

09:22 - a few lay people of course on the commission

09:25 - that know what to look for as well you know we

09:28 - lawyers practice before judges so if they have

09:31 - more of an insight as to what makes a good judge so

09:34 - hopefully people

09:35 - understand that

09:36 - our recommendations aren't just we like this person or we don't

09:39 - it's actually based on the merits of how they would be as a judge.

09:43 - Lastly why should people be aware of who's running for judge and who is currently

09:47 - serving as judge so particularly at the court of common pleas level i would say that

09:53 - every single Pennsylvanian whether they know

09:56 - it or not is very likely to have some sort of

09:59 - justice involved situation occur

10:02 - to themselves or someone in their family

10:04 - a lot of people think i abide by the laws i

10:06 - pay my taxes i'm never going to end up in court

10:09 - but in reality the overwhelming amount of court cases

10:12 - are family law matters divorce custody support

10:15 - they're civil litigation matters or orphan court matters

10:19 - you know your grandmother passed and

10:21 - you are contesting the will because you're pretty sure that aunt Sally convinced her at

10:24 - the last minute to change something

10:26 - all these different things that nobody anticipates

10:29 - coming and we pray that they don't come

10:31 - but eventually everyone is going to be

10:33 - impacted or someone they love is going to be impacted

10:36 - judges have an immense amount of power

10:38 - and the the best possible qualified

10:41 - judicial candidates

10:43 - need to be in the place of making those important decisions

10:46 - because the last thing you want is someone who got on there.

10:50 - On the bench

10:51 - almost by accident due to some sort of unusual political occurrence

10:55 - and then they don't necessarily know the law to the extent they should

10:59 - and it impacts you and your family and then you have to appeal it

11:03 - to get justice

11:05 - and not to say that all appeals

11:07 - are due to

11:08 - lower level judges who made a bad choice but

11:11 - sometimes they can be and now you're spending a lot of money out of pocket to try to

11:16 - get the justice you deserve yeah i agree and

11:19 - as Matt mentioned.

11:22 - If a judge makes a mistake

11:23 - or

11:24 - actively conducts misconduct it can be very expensive for litigants

11:28 - and

11:28 - at the same time judges are people too.

11:31 - So

11:31 - while they're entitled to our respect we also need to make sure that they are the

11:34 - best suited for the job and that's why it's important to know

11:37 - who they are and what their

11:39 - past or positions are

11:42 - We've been speaking with Matthew Holliday executive

11:44 - director at the Pennsylvania bar association

11:46 - and William Christman executive director and general counsel for the pa bar association

11:51 - thank you for your time

11:53 - thank you thank you.

12:00 - We're joined today by Deborah Gross president and ceo of Pennsylvanians for modern

12:04 - courts Pennsylvania currently chooses our judges through an election process

12:09 - however you represent an organization that advocates

12:11 - for an alternative means of selecting judges can

12:14 - talk a little bit about what you find problematic

12:16 - about the current election process for judges.

12:20 - Thank you for having us

12:22 - on the program that's an interesting question

12:24 - right what we find problematic about elections well

12:28 - number one and foremost

12:30 - judges

12:31 - or their campaigns have to ask for money

12:34 - so

12:35 - you know that doesn't

12:36 - leave a good taste in essence with you know

12:39 - you have a

12:41 - fundraiser there's a room filled with people there's a judge who goes around shakes

12:46 - hands introduces him or herself or candidate.

12:50 - The code of conduct cannot

12:52 - and does not permit a judge

12:54 - to

12:55 - ask

12:56 - specifically for money

12:58 - but the

12:59 - judges campaign manager who is standing right

13:02 - next to the judge can say can you support

13:05 - my candidate

13:07 - and so it

13:08 - there's

13:08 - a feeling that justice is for sale i will say

13:12 - so that's the first and foremost concern about electing judges.

13:17 - There's other concerns

13:20 - well if i may jump in right there

13:22 - to add onto what you just talked about

13:24 - a report by spotlight PA sites that most traditional campaigns are funded

13:28 - predominantly by unions lawyers and special interest groups

13:31 - has there been any evidence of conflict of interest or is that just something that

13:35 - candidates have to navigate very carefully.

13:38 - Well again

13:39 - candidate's have to navagate very carefully

13:41 - i mean yes there was a famous supreme court case

13:44 - where you know a candidate.

13:47 - In a different state

13:48 - contribute a million dollars to judges election

13:51 - and then when that judge

13:54 - came on that states supreme court

13:56 - the prior decision.

13:59 - Was overturned so

14:00 - but in Pennsylvania nothing

14:03 - at you know

14:04 - up to this point and time and i don't foresee anything but still it is a very fine.

14:10 - tight rope

14:11 - oh you know that somebody has to walk

14:13 - but the other concern now is dark money right we don't know.

14:18 - Who contributes to PACs

14:20 - or

14:22 - and so yes unions and lawyers we are aware of when they

14:27 - publicly you know there's information that they publicly

14:31 - File but

14:32 - there's a lot of

14:33 - contributions now that are made through.

14:36 - Unknown organizations.

14:39 - Can you talk a little bit about limitations that are on judicial candidates regarding

14:42 - what they can or cannot talk about in a public forum

14:45 - and that's really an important question because

14:48 - you want to elect a candidate that you can find

14:51 - information you know about and do your research and

14:54 - judges are.

14:56 - They are restricted again by judicial code of conduct as to

15:00 - what information they can provide

15:02 - they cannot

15:04 - provide answers to questions about how they would rule on a case

15:07 - or on a case that they think would come before them so

15:10 - there are restrictions i say to people sometimes says you can't really

15:14 - you know with political candidates you can go up

15:16 - to them and say how would you rule you can't say that.

15:20 - So what i tell people to do is.

15:22 - See how involved that candidate is

15:27 - in their community

15:28 - what activities they do because you want

15:31 - first one you want somebody who is a good person

15:33 - and that will help you but you can't you and

15:36 - and how a judge

15:37 - and that you can't just

15:39 - base a decision on how a judge rules either because

15:42 - that's an interpretation of a rule of law so it's very hard

15:46 - what criteria do voters generally use when

15:47 - they're trying to select a judicial candidate.

15:51 - There's a lot of criteria

15:53 - first i want to just

15:54 - commend highly many of the bar associations that do a very thorough investigative.

16:02 - A review of candidates to and it's on their websites and i used to be chancellor the

16:06 - Philadelphia bar association it was very involved with this process

16:10 - and i could tell you it is a nonpartisan

16:13 - unbiased process

16:14 - but

16:15 - to me again the candidates are rated.

16:18 - That the judge practice law

16:20 - okay for a number of years that bar association

16:22 - say ten years i think that's a good

16:26 - Good time period for somebody to actually get some experience.

16:30 - It's not necessarily the type of experience right they could be a family law

16:34 - practitioner they could be a criminal law practitioner

16:37 - but it's that they're in court or that they

16:40 - are a practicing lawyer for ten years

16:42 - or the other

16:43 - type of

16:44 - you know

16:45 - involvement is that we we need to make sure that this

16:48 - candidate hasn't.

16:50 - Hasn't run into any

16:51 - problems

16:52 - in discipline so we can look up their

16:55 - you know disciplinary

16:56 - proceedings similarly if there was the judge who's.

17:00 - Running again for retention or for a higher court

17:03 - you can look up

17:04 - and see if there's been any

17:06 - disciplinary action about the judge so this to me are

17:08 - two important things

17:10 - and then the other thing that i say always this is again

17:13 - their involvement in the community do they give back do they have a heart.

17:17 - Because

17:18 - you don't want.

17:20 - A judge

17:21 - sitting

17:22 - on the bench

17:23 - that's like in a

17:25 - tower i say i mean

17:27 - judges

17:28 - often say once they joined the bench

17:30 - they've joined the monastery

17:32 - because they're limited and

17:33 - you know who they can go out with who they can socialize who can pay for something

17:38 - but we do want judges engaged

17:40 - in the community

17:42 - how knowledgeable is the average voter when

17:43 - they're selecting their judicial candidates.

17:47 - Cannot give you a percent but.

17:50 - I would like to say

17:51 - most are not knowledgeable i mean even my.

17:54 - Lawyer friends you know call and say who should i vote for how do how do i make that

17:58 - determination my doctor friends you know my neighbors

18:03 - because it's hard to find that information

18:05 - and it takes a lot of work so that's why it's great that the bar associations

18:10 - provide this service and people can go to the bar association websites.

18:15 - Pennsylvanians for modern Courts advocates on behalf

18:17 - of merit selection of judges for those not familiar

18:20 - how does merit selection of judges work.

18:24 - So that's also a great question because it has

18:27 - i'm going to say it has changed over time

18:29 - you know merit selection there's

18:31 - so we are one of seven states that elect our judges

18:34 - but merit selection can mean so many different things it could be an appointment by

18:39 - a governor

18:40 - it could be an appointment by a nominating commission

18:43 - or recommendation by a nominating commission

18:46 - that evaluates the candidate

18:48 - it could

18:49 - so that there's a there's a wide range

18:51 - and actually pmc is right now working on something that would

18:56 - propose an independent

18:58 - nominating commission

18:59 - comprised of citizens

19:02 - and judges and lawyers years and

19:05 - we know we have to include the political process

19:08 - to a limited extent we will we will be realistic

19:11 - but that

19:12 - group

19:13 - would make a recommendation and then that would be

19:16 - decided upon by a governor who would have to choose

19:19 - from the recommended candidates

19:21 - but many different states have different

19:24 - i want to say do different ways you know there's also this issue

19:27 - about how long should a judge stay in office should the judge

19:31 - be there for life

19:33 - or should the judge be reviewed at ten years or

19:34 - eighteen years so there's a lot of different issues about.

19:40 - How you would base merit selection.

19:42 - What procedures would need to take place to enact merit selection in Pennsylvania.

19:47 - Yeah

19:47 - that is also a challenge i would like to say so we need to have a

19:51 - bill

19:52 - that would be passed twice in two consecutive legislative sessions

19:57 - same language

19:59 - and then it would be a proposed

20:01 - question on the ballot for

20:03 - the citizens of the commonwealth.

20:07 - As long as judicial elections remain in Pennsylvania are there specific campaign

20:11 - finance provisions that you'd like to see enacted to help keep

20:14 - the the judicial election process fair.

20:19 - The definite answer is yes.

20:23 - But what specific ones we have to make sure that they don't run into any conflicts

20:27 - with the supreme court laws and freedom of

20:30 - speech laws but there should are you know there are some states that limit

20:35 - how much contribution

20:37 - one

20:37 - person or one group can make right that the amounts to that were not limiting

20:41 - who the contributions come for but it's just an amount

20:45 - there's other states that actually provide.

20:49 - Funding for candidates once they reach a certain

20:52 - level so that there's a lot of different ways

20:54 - that we could have campaign finance reform.

20:59 - what are the prospects of merit selection

21:02 - becoming enacted in Pennsylvania.

21:06 - At the moment

21:07 - i can't

21:08 - i i mean there's not an interest in Harrisburg i have been talking to a number of

21:12 - legislators and they say Harrisburg is just very fractured

21:17 - and.

21:18 - It's hard to get bipartisan support for

21:21 - for many

21:22 - bills but that doesn't mean to say i'm not going

21:24 - to give up i think i'm just going to wait till

21:26 - after the November elections.

21:29 - Under the current circumstances with judicial elections you'd already mentioned that

21:33 - the bar associations provide judicial

21:35 - evaluations what other resources would you recommend

21:38 - to voters

21:39 - to make an educated decision when they're electing their judiciary.

21:43 - So i definitely think you know

21:45 - the

21:45 - judges'

21:46 - decisions are publicly available if people want to Google them

21:50 - information about judges now is publicly available where they went to school cases if

21:54 - they if they are trial lawyer cases that they've tried and you know

22:01 - as i said the other

22:02 - places they can go

22:03 - to the disciplinary

22:04 - board's website the judicial conduct board's website

22:09 - but

22:10 - there's a lot of information out there on the Internet

22:14 - but i would first start with the

22:16 - the bar association's

22:19 - evaluation commissions because also the candidates

22:22 - complete questionnaires and sometimes those questionnaires are available as well.

22:27 - Deborah Gross president and CEO of Pennsylvanians for modern courts thank you for joining us.

22:31 - Thank you for having me

22:32 - appreciate it.