00:00 - This program has been paid for by the sponsor

00:02 - and does not reflect the views of PCN.

00:19 - Good afternoon, and welcome to Patrick Speaks.

00:21 - Their housing forward.

00:23 - I'm your host, Brittany Mellinger,

00:25 - and I serve as the fair housing training and outreach

00:27 - coordinator at the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission.

00:30 - In this show, we explore all things

00:32 - housing with the experts, advocates, and community leaders

00:36 - who are working to expand access to housing.

00:39 - Today, we'll be speaking with Peter

00:41 - Saez, director of Fair Housing and Commercial Property,

00:44 - about advancing housing opportunities

00:46 - throughout Pennsylvania.

00:48 - It's my pleasure to

00:49 - welcome to the show my colleague Caroline Eisner.

00:52 - She leads the development, implementation and monitoring of

00:56 - statewide programs

00:57 - aimed at preventing discrimination

00:59 - in housing and commercial property.

01:01 - Esther has served in various roles in state government

01:04 - in Pennsylvania, including in the Office of Developmental

01:07 - Programs, Office of Mental Health and Substance Abuse,

01:10 - and the Office of Administrate and Bureau of Equal Opportunity,

01:14 - as well as as a human relations representative or investigator

01:18 - in Peter City's Harrisburg Regional Office.

01:21 - Prior to her Commonwealth service

01:23 - and throughout her career,

01:24 - I dedicated many years to supporting people

01:27 - with disabilities and the elderly.

01:29 - She focused particularly on training, development

01:32 - and coordination for community living arrangements,

01:35 - intermediate care facilities, long term care facilities,

01:38 - and home based waiver programs throughout Pennsylvania.

01:41 - I developed impactful training programs in disability rights,

01:45 - abuse prevention, crisis intervention,

01:48 - principles of investigation,

01:49 - as well as health care and safety presentations,

01:52 - clinicals and practicums for community members,

01:55 - state agency students and professionals.

01:57 - I just returned to work in 2023 for her ongoing dedication

02:02 - to advancing fair housing and advocating for the,

02:06 - for the rights of all Pennsylvanians.

02:08 - She has served as chairwoman of various human and disability

02:11 - rights committees,

02:12 - demonstrating her commitment to advocating for equality

02:15 - and inclusion.

02:16 - Her personal passion for social justice provides

02:19 - support for positive change and empowerment

02:21 - in communities across the state.

02:23 - Welcome, Director Eisner,

02:24 - and thank you for joining us this afternoon.

02:27 - You're welcome. Thank you for having me, Renee.

02:29 - Absolutely.

02:31 - So we all have a story on how we got to our current work

02:33 - and vocation. Can you?

02:35 - I like to start our conversation today by inviting you

02:37 - to share a little bit about your journey to your current role.

02:39 - Well, and thank you again for that introduction.

02:42 - That was, very wonderful.

02:44 - And, just to revisit that a little bit.

02:48 - I came to the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission,

02:51 - through most recently, the Bureau of Equal Opportunity.

02:55 - Prior to that,

02:55 - I worked with the Office of Developmental Programs

02:59 - and also the Office of Mental Health and Substance Abuse,

03:02 - under the Department of Human Services.

03:04 - I started with the Commonwealth back in 2007, a wonderful.

03:10 - So you've been in your current role

03:11 - for about a year and a half at Peters.

03:13 - Can you share with us

03:14 - some of the biggest disparities

03:16 - that you've seen in terms of housing opportunities?

03:19 - We see significant disparities in homeownership

03:22 - rates among racial and ethnic groups.

03:26 - Despite the Fair Housing Act being an active over 60

03:29 - years ago, these gaps have not significantly narrowed.

03:34 - The barriers

03:34 - include systemic discrimination, limited access to credit,

03:39 - lower wealth accumulation in marginalized

03:42 - communities, and lack of affordable housing options.

03:46 - Yeah, absolutely.

03:48 - So in in about two years ago, in 2023 years,

03:51 - we released a white paper which detailed

03:54 - some of the urgent housing,

03:56 - barriers and needs that are facing Pennsylvanians.

03:59 - It highlighted the need for additional housing

04:01 - affordability, particularly, in areas of opportunity.

04:06 - And it also discussed some real barriers

04:08 - in accessing housing through the assistance programs

04:10 - that are designed to serve the most vulnerable Pennsylvanians.

04:14 - It shared some statistics about housing discrimination

04:17 - in our state.

04:18 - So in the two years since we published that,

04:20 - what can you tell us about

04:21 - what's kind of stayed the same and what's changed since then?

04:25 - And what our picture sees next steps to continue to address

04:28 - this issue.

04:29 - to address the disparities, we need

04:32 - comprehensive investments in affordable housing.

04:36 - Financial literacy programs and initiatives

04:39 - that support first time homebuyers,

04:41 - particularly in underserved communities.

04:43 - Additionally, we must advocate for policies

04:46 - that promote equitable development.

04:49 - So sometimes the fair housing issues that that come up can be,

04:52 - can be pretty technical on how they can, can impact,

04:55 - protected classes throughout Pennsylvania.

04:58 - We're talking about the the white paper.

05:01 - What's the main takeaway that you would want people

05:04 - to know about housing needs throughout Pennsylvania?

05:07 - Okay.

05:07 - Well, since our release of our white paper in 2023,

05:13 - we have seen increased awareness around housing needs,

05:16 - but systemic barriers remain largely unchanged.

05:21 - Our next steps.

05:25 - Include advocating

05:26 - for policy change, increasing outreach

05:29 - to the vulnerable populations, and collaborating

05:32 - with local agencies to improve access

05:36 - to housing assistance.

05:39 - We are looking to update our white paper, to

05:43 - and our goal is to have updates to our action steps by,

05:48 - mid-summer this year.

05:50 - So, hopefully everyone it seems that

05:54 - we have a lot of interest in the updates from,

05:57 - you know, our partners and our intergovernmental partners

06:00 - as well.

06:00 - So, that will be something people are on the lookout for.

06:06 - Yeah, absolutely.

06:07 - And those updates would include, some, some more recent data

06:11 - as well as some, some updates on, on some of the trends that,

06:14 - that we're seeing.

06:15 - And the next steps that Peter see

06:17 - is going to be taking in the years to come.

06:18 - Right, exactly.

06:20 - Not only will we be,

06:23 - updating our

06:24 - action steps that were, core to our to to the white paper,

06:29 - the updates will include areas of concern

06:33 - and interest that, we're seeing,

06:37 - in the current climate as well.

06:40 - Yeah,

06:41 - Could you talk a little bit more about the investments

06:43 - that we need to make in, in our housing to make sure that

06:46 - that folks have actual housing opportunities?

06:49 - Absolutely.

06:51 - Investment should focus on creating and preserving

06:53 - affordable housing units, increasing access.

06:56 - To homeownership programs,

06:58 - and supporting community development initiatives.

07:01 - We also need to enhance rental assistance programs and provide

07:04 - resources for housing, counseling.

07:08 - Yeah, absolutely.

07:09 - And having these resources and these programs

07:12 - and these investments in place really

07:13 - help us to support individuals and being able to access,

07:17 - the housing of their choice, providing them

07:19 - that, that access and that opportunity. Yes.

07:24 - So I'd like to talk next,

07:25 - about zoning, because that comes up a lot in our conversations

07:29 - at both the state and the national level.

07:32 - And it poses a real barrier for communities

07:35 - being able to, to meet the needs of their residents.

07:38 - Could you share with our audience

07:39 - a little bit

07:40 - about how zoning laws can impact housing opportunities and,

07:43 - and the extent to which they can contribute to discriminatory,

07:48 - practices and structures? Yes.

07:50 - There are notable gaps in the understanding how local

07:53 - policies affect housing access, particularly around zoning laws

07:58 - and their implications for affordability.

08:01 - We need to focus.

08:04 - We we need to focus resources on educating stakeholders,

08:08 - about the intersection of housing policy,

08:11 - economic development and social equity.

08:14 - So I know your work involves, engaging with a lot of different

08:19 - stakeholders, both at the national level,

08:21 - state level, as well as in local communities.

08:24 - As you're engaging in these conversations,

08:26 - where do you find that the gaps in people's knowledge,

08:29 - where do you think we need, to have a greater focus

08:33 - on, on our resources and education and training?

08:37 - Great.

08:38 - Well, there are notable gaps

08:39 - in understanding how local policies affect housing access,

08:42 - particularly around zoning laws,

08:46 - and their implications for affordability as well.

08:49 - We need to focus our resources on educating

08:52 - stakeholders about the intersection

08:53 - of housing policy, economic development and social equity.

08:57 - Yeah, absolutely.

08:59 - And how can we better involve the expertise of those

09:02 - with lived experience in housing instability

09:05 - and discrimination to inform our policy decisions?

09:07 - You know,

09:08 - they've actually lived through it and they've

09:10 - they've gone through it and can speak to the experience

09:13 - and to some of the barriers with programs.

09:14 - How do we, include those voices in, in a meaningful way?

09:19 - The best to speak on it.

09:21 - So to better inform policy decisions,

09:24 - we must actively involve individuals with lived

09:28 - experience of housing instability and discrimination.

09:31 - Their insights are invaluable in shaping policies

09:34 - that truly reflect the needs of our communities.

09:37 - This can be done through community forums,

09:39 - advisory boards,

09:41 - and partnerships with grass roots organizations.

09:45 - Yeah, absolutely.

09:46 - And of course, building those out through our advisory

09:48 - councils, our social justice ambassador programs and other,

09:52 - programs to to reach local communities as well. Do

09:55 - you want to share anything about those programs as well for,

09:59 - for our viewers that might be interested in,

10:02 - joining an advisory council in your area?

10:06 - You can contact HRC to find out

10:08 - if there is an existing advisory council in your area or also,

10:13 - we initiate advisory councils

10:15 - where we have groups of interested individuals.

10:18 - Also, our goal is to have a social justice ambassador

10:22 - in every single county.

10:23 - So that is someone who,

10:27 - also works in the role that gives advice and,

10:30 - brings the concerns of their specific community to the HRC.

10:35 - Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

10:37 - So I know something that you've been very involved

10:39 - with in your time at Peter City has been, the use of AI,

10:44 - and algorithmic screening, in housing situations.

10:48 - So when a tenant would apply for housing and would receive

10:51 - a screening, based on, on data provided from an algorithm.

10:56 - What can you tell us about these screenings

10:57 - and how they can impact housing opportunities?

11:00 - Thank you.

11:01 - Yes. Emerging technologies

11:03 - like AI can unintentionally, unintentionally

11:06 - perpetuate biases in tenant screening processes

11:10 - to spot discriminatory practices.

11:12 - Applicants should be aware of their rights

11:15 - and request transparency in how decisions are made.

11:18 - And if someone believes they are facing

11:20 - unfair screening, they should document the process

11:23 - and notify, their housing authority.

11:27 - And of course, PRC.

11:30 - Yeah, absolutely.

11:33 - So there have been,

11:36 - numerous changes lately at the federal level in terms of

11:38 - their housing enforcement.

11:40 - Is there anything that you want Pennsylvanians to know

11:42 - about their protections against discrimination

11:45 - in the state of Pennsylvania? Yes.

11:47 - With recent federal changes in fair housing, for some, it's

11:50 - essential for the for Pennsylvanians to know

11:53 - that their rights

11:54 - under the Pennsylvania human relation Act, the,

11:58 - this law protects individuals from discrimination

12:00 - based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin,

12:04 - and for the end,

12:05 - many of the protected classes in Pennsylvania,

12:08 - including familial status, disability.

12:11 - That's among our categories as well.

12:13 - So, our protections,

12:16 - and our laws are in place in the state of Pennsylvania.

12:19 - And in light of the federal changes, Pennsylvania's

12:22 - protection under the and you find,

12:25 - that help at the PRC?

12:28 - Yeah.

12:28 - And how can

12:29 - people reach out to the PRC

12:30 - if they wanted to learn more

12:32 - about their protections and their rights?

12:33 - Well, we have a fair housing hotline that you can access.

12:40 - There are resources available on our website.

12:42 - They can call the HRC,

12:45 - and they can file a complaint or

12:50 - if they're not sure

12:51 - if they're facing

12:51 - discrimination, they can call and talk to one of our staff

12:55 - in our Pittsburgh, Harrisburg or our Philadelphia office.

13:00 - But, do not have to,

13:04 - reach out to that specific,

13:07 - geographic area.

13:08 - We we will, definitely feel the call to where it goes

13:11 - in the complaint, where it goes.

13:12 - You can just reach out to us, via those modalities.

13:17 - Yeah, absolutely.

13:18 - Yeah.

13:18 - Lots of ways to get in touch with us.

13:21 - So you mentioned, the

13:23 - the Pennsylvania Human Relations Act, which forms the basis

13:26 - for our protections in Pennsylvania.

13:29 - But we know that there are other states

13:31 - that have different laws and different protections.

13:33 - And, and we engage with and learn

13:34 - from those other commissions and agencies and other states

13:37 - that the do similar, similar work to the city.

13:42 - So looking at protections in other states laws,

13:44 - is there anything needed in the gray, to,

13:48 - to further protect Pennsylvanians in their housing

13:51 - and to address discrimination in our state?

13:53 - Sure.

13:54 - Well, while the Pennsylvania Human Relations Act provides

13:57 - a solid foundation, we should examine potential

14:00 - enhancements to better protect against discrimination.

14:04 - Recently, the Pennsylvania Human Relations

14:07 - Commission expanded protections for LGBTQ plus individuals.

14:12 - And by

14:14 - expanding our definition of sex to include,

14:18 - a variety of,

14:21 - variety of interest,

14:23 - and and for people, LGBTQ plus,

14:27 - we also are looking into addressing source

14:30 - of income protections and sealing of eviction records

14:34 - in addition to, our

14:37 - existing protections.

14:39 - Yeah.

14:40 - For our viewers that that might not be familiar

14:43 - with source of income protections.

14:44 - Could you give us a basic description of what those are?

14:47 - Sure.

14:48 - That would be, if you receive,

14:51 - funding from,

14:54 - perhaps section A program or you receive,

14:58 - federal funding from, another source,

15:02 - your housing provider cannot dictate,

15:05 - that they won't take that for income

15:09 - when you're applying or living in housing.

15:13 - Yeah, absolutely.

15:13 - And that's so crucial because, because folks have a variety

15:17 - of supports and sources of income

15:20 - that they can use to you with stable lives and to you,

15:23 - to access housing, communities of their choice.

15:26 - So it's really important that,

15:28 - that that's not a barrier to folks.

15:31 - You also mentioned the ceiling of evictions,

15:34 - as, as a crucial policy to to enhance our protections

15:39 - in Pennsylvania.

15:40 - Can you talk a little bit about why that's important?

15:42 - Absolutely.

15:44 - Because

15:46 - someone can have an eviction on their record,

15:51 - and perhaps they were never even evicted.

15:55 - All it takes is for the fact the charges to be

16:00 - filed, the eviction to be filed, and there's no,

16:04 - there's no law and or no rule in Pennsylvania right now

16:08 - about how far that that we could go back.

16:12 - There's no, rule about, when they should be taken off.

16:16 - It's. You could win.

16:18 - You could win a case.

16:19 - You could your your housing provider can file

16:23 - an eviction against you,

16:25 - and you could win the case, but it still stays with you.

16:28 - And that does affect people's

16:31 - ability to move forward when

16:33 - they're seeking housing or to,

16:38 - secure that for their families for an untold amount of time.

16:42 - Yeah, absolutely.

16:43 - It pops up on that,

16:44 - that, tenant screening

16:46 - when someone goes to, to try to find a new home

16:48 - for themselves or their family and,

16:50 - and you're right, it can, it can stay on someone's record.

16:54 - Even if there was no judgment filed against them,

16:56 - even if the case was thrown out

16:58 - completely and didn't have merit.

17:00 - So I, I agree, I think that is, something that would,

17:04 - provide additional protections for Pennsylvanians to, to be

17:07 - able to make sure that folks have, equal access to housing.

17:12 - So I know a lot of our viewers may be watching this program

17:16 - who might not be decision makers in housing.

17:19 - You know, they might not be,

17:22 - a landlord, or a property owner,

17:25 - a realtor, a zoning official or a local commissioner.

17:28 - They might not have received mercy, fair housing training.

17:33 - How can, just, regular community members, become involved

17:37 - in, in the efforts, for housing justice?

17:40 - Well, even if you're not a decision

17:42 - maker, there's many ways you

17:43 - can become involved in the fight for fair housing justice.

17:47 - You can participate in community meetings, advocate for policy

17:51 - changes, volunteer with local organizations,

17:54 - educate yourself

17:55 - and others, about housing rights and housing issues.

17:59 - So we talked, a little bit about,

18:02 - how some of that can reach out to, to Peter,

18:04 - see if they've got concerns

18:05 - and if they wanted to file a complaint,

18:07 - but what could they expect after that initial reach out?

18:10 - What does that complaint process

18:11 - look like for for someone that believes

18:13 - they've experienced housing discrimination? Oh, no.

18:16 - Thank you. Yes.

18:17 - I'd like to demystify that for anyone who may think that.

18:21 - Well, is it really discrimination?

18:23 - Is is is this going to amount to anything

18:28 - or there may be fear around filing a complaint?

18:32 - Can be a lot of questions as someone's trying to consider

18:34 - their next steps.

18:35 - So so what do you think they, they should know and they should

18:38 - consider, so, with your initial reach out,

18:44 - your concerns, are important.

18:46 - So, it's not a matter of deciding for yourself.

18:50 - It's discrimination or not, we're happy

18:52 - to help you make that determination.

18:54 - So, I would suggest that people do not hold that,

18:58 - that if there are any question at all, it's

19:02 - absolutely no problem for them to reach out.

19:04 - And we're happy to help with that.

19:06 - And that's why we're here.

19:07 - So when someone reaches out,

19:10 - they would be, sent to the intake department.

19:15 - So someone in intake would, have them

19:19 - fill out a questionnaire, they would go over

19:21 - the questionnaire in person with,

19:24 - dates, times what they felt,

19:27 - they experienced and, and what,

19:29 - what they felt was unfair about it.

19:33 - If it's jurisdictional and, if it's appropriate,

19:36 - that complaint will be sent over to an investigator.

19:41 - An investigator is assigned and they will reach out

19:44 - to what now?

19:46 - Is the complainant. So,

19:49 - they draft a legally sufficient and formal complaint

19:52 - for the complainant.

19:56 - And they send that to

20:00 - the, respondent, or that is the person that the complainant

20:04 - is filing against.

20:05 - That respondent has, 30 days to answer,

20:09 - and we call it an answer so they can get an attorney.

20:13 - Or they could answer that complaint themselves.

20:16 - That's a question that a lot of people have.

20:18 - Do they need an attorney about the PRC?

20:20 - And the answer is they do not need to have an attorney.

20:23 - Our services are free of charge.

20:25 - And, that investigator stays

20:29 - with you, helps you through the entire process.

20:32 - Not to say that sometimes there is change over we we limit

20:36 - that as much as as possible.

20:39 - There's no set answer to how long someone's complaint.

20:44 - Some of these investigation might take.

20:47 - That's divided into counts.

20:49 - And, sometimes, depending on the circumstances,

20:51 - there's a lot of interviews that need to be done.

20:53 - Evidence is collected.

20:55 - So there's no set point,

20:58 - a time point that,

21:01 - we aim for, we do thorough

21:03 - and integral investigations, and that's our focus.

21:08 - If we do not receive an answer,

21:09 - if the providing the respondent, did not ask for an extension,

21:14 - there's up to 30 day extension that doesn't necessarily

21:17 - have to be granted for 30 days, but with good reason.

21:20 - We can grant that,

21:23 - if that answer is still not received,

21:26 - we would file a rule to show cause, and,

21:31 - we do at the Pennsylvania Relations Commission,

21:34 - we are an enforcement agency with police powers.

21:36 - So we would, seek a subpoena for those records.

21:41 - At any point, we do try to mediate.

21:44 - We mediate, great deal of, cases.

21:47 - We're very proud

21:48 - of our mediation, which I believe

21:50 - they were featured here a few weeks ago.

21:52 - We have a robust, mediation division, and we try to,

21:58 - have our cases when possible,

22:02 - mediate it.

22:03 - But at the end of the investigation,

22:07 - there's two possibles.

22:09 - So two possible endings.

22:11 - There is, no probable cause or probable cause. So,

22:16 - NPCs and no probable cause finding,

22:19 - and a letter is sent to all parties

22:21 - explaining that,

22:25 - the no probable cause, if it's probable cause, there's,

22:28 - so it could end conciliation adjudication or, be placed,

22:34 - for public hearing or end up, in Commonwealth court.

22:39 - So. Right.

22:39 - Because probable cause means that there was enough evidence

22:42 - to determine that discrimination occurred. Right? Yes.

22:45 - At that point.

22:46 - Yeah. At that point,

22:47 - we know that discrimination did in fact occur.

22:49 - Yeah. Well, thank you for for taking us through the process.

22:52 - So that way folks know what they can expect.

22:54 - You know,

22:54 - sometimes when you go into a governmental agency,

22:57 - you don't necessarily know what the process

22:58 - and what to expect and some of the terminology.

23:01 - So thank you for explaining that to our viewers.

23:04 - Oh, we welcome.

23:05 - So I know that this work isn't easy hearing about the

23:09 - housing needs of Pennsylvanians day in and day out.

23:12 - And, and, dealing with discrimination complaints.

23:16 - Can you share a little bit about what

23:17 - keeps you going on the hard days

23:19 - and what motivates you to do this work? Thank you.

23:22 - We as we know we do have hard days.

23:25 - We see, a lot of

23:28 - sad cases sometimes, that can wear,

23:32 - on people who do this work.

23:34 - So for me, on hard days,

23:36 - I remind myself why this work is so vital.

23:39 - Every step we take towards equitable housing

23:43 - opportunities is a step towards

23:45 - justice and dignity for all.

23:48 - I like to think of our children, our generations,

23:55 - behind our generation, leaving behind a better,

24:00 - a better,

24:02 - situation for the for generations to come.

24:06 - And to really work towards not making the same

24:10 - mistakes and missteps that were made in the past.

24:13 - So, yeah, absolutely.

24:16 - And we know how

24:17 - quality housing can impact generations to come as well.

24:20 - You know, having a safe, stable place to live,

24:24 - and living in a place where you can get

24:26 - a quality education that can impact your kids futures.

24:28 - So I think that's really meaningful.

24:31 - Thank you.

24:32 - Yes. It affects everything every year.

24:33 - How quality of housing affects every aspect of one's life.

24:38 - Yeah, absolutely.

24:39 - Well, director Esther, I thank you for taking the time

24:41 - to come on the show this afternoon.

24:43 - We're really grateful for your leadership

24:45 - in advancing fair housing throughout Pennsylvania.

24:48 - I'd also like to thank our viewers

24:49 - for spending their afternoon learning with us.

24:52 - So if you believe that you've experienced

24:54 - housing discrimination or would like to learn more

24:56 - about housing protections in Pennsylvania, give us a call.

24:58 - It purchases fair housing line, which is (855) 866-5718.

25:04 - You can also find us on our website on the screen,

25:07 - which is WW pa.gov.

25:10 - Again, agencies HRC.

25:14 - You can also keep up with

25:16 - our work on Facebook, Instagram X, YouTube and LinkedIn.

25:19 - And remember, our communities are stronger

25:21 - when everyone has a place to call home.

25:23 - We'll see you next time.

25:27 - This program has been paid

25:28 - for by the sponsor and does not reflect the views of PCN.