00:00 - This program has been paid for by the sponsor and does not reflect

00:03 - the views of PCN.

00:19 - Good afternoon and welcome to Peter C Speaks.

00:22 - Fair Housing Forward.

00:23 - I'm your host, Brittany Mellinger, and I serve as the Fair Housing Training

00:27 - and Outreach Coordinator at the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission.

00:31 - In this show, we explore all things housing with the experts, advocates

00:36 - and community leaders who are working to expand access to housing.

00:40 - Today, we'll be discussing hoarding and housing stability.

00:44 - It's my pleasure to welcome to the show Courtney Owens and Gabe Halpern.

00:48 - Goldstein from the Jewish Family and Children's Services.

00:53 - Courtney Own LLC W has primary responsibility

00:57 - for leadership of specific J. F C.

01:00 - S programs ensures the financially responsible operation

01:03 - of these programs and services, and seeks new program development opportunity

01:08 - is consistent with the mission and values of the organization.

01:12 - In this role, Courtney Partners with program leaders

01:15 - and the development team in the identification and pursuit

01:18 - of new funding sources for program sustenance and expansion.

01:23 - Courtney received her MSW from Tulane University and her B.S.

01:27 - in Psychology from the University of Oregon.

01:29 - She has over 17 years of experience providing community based mental health

01:34 - and social services in Philadelphia and New Orleans.

01:37 - Previous roles at the organization include JFK as director of Individual

01:42 - and Family Services and JFK's

01:46 - program manager for Hoarding and Care Management.

01:49 - Gabe Halpern Goldstein is a clinical

01:51 - social worker who recently graduated from Temple University.

01:55 - He has spent the last past year

01:57 - with the hoarding program at Jewish Family and Children's Services.

02:01 - Working with both individual clients and facilitating

02:04 - several breed and treasurer groups in addition to social work.

02:07 - Gabe has worked in digital communications, writing news

02:11 - stories and blogs about research in public health and business.

02:15 - Welcome Courtney and Gabe and thank you for joining us.

02:19 - Thanks so much for having us.

02:20 - Glad to be here.

02:22 - So we thank you. Yeah.

02:24 - So we all have a story about how we got to our work and vocation.

02:28 - I'd like to start this conversation

02:30 - by inviting you to share your journey to your current work.

02:34 - Yeah.

02:35 - So my journey and how I got here into this program is after

02:40 - I graduated social work school, I started working in community mental health.

02:45 - So my role was really to work

02:46 - with individuals who were in and out of psychiatric facilities

02:50 - to help them maintain stability in their community and in their homes.

02:54 - And in that work we did a lot of home visits.

02:56 - We worked with a multidisciplinary team.

03:00 - And often we would come

03:02 - across homes that of individuals who are struggling with hoarding disorder.

03:06 - But our main focus was really to help those individuals maintain

03:10 - in the community out of hospitals

03:13 - and focus on the the most present mental health symptoms that we saw.

03:18 - And we didn't know that much about hoarding disorder.

03:20 - And we also didn't know how much it was really impacting that individual.

03:24 - So it was kind of a thing that went unaddressed.

03:27 - And from that work, I was led years later to assess

03:32 - who was starting a hoarding disorder program, and they were looking

03:36 - for someone who could develop that that initiative that they were taking on.

03:41 - And I felt like it would be really interesting

03:43 - and it kept me connected to services in mental health.

03:46 - And so that's kind of how I ended up at Jax and started working to build

03:52 - what is now the JFC as Hoarding support program.

03:55 - Wonderful.

03:56 - Gabe.

03:58 - Yeah, This work is the beginning of my social work journey.

04:02 - I joined Jax as an intern when I was doing my MSW at Temple University.

04:09 - And I didn't know much about hoarding disorder

04:12 - and thought it would be a one year internship.

04:14 - But I really enjoyed the work and it was challenging

04:18 - and allowed for lots of creativity.

04:21 - And there's still a lot that we were learning about hoarding.

04:23 - And so I decided to stay on after and I ended up

04:27 - staying on after my graduation in May 2023.

04:33 - Yeah.

04:33 - Can you tell us about Jewish Family and Children's

04:36 - Services and the Hoarding program?

04:39 - Yeah.

04:40 - So Jewish Family and Children's Service is a nonprofit

04:43 - social service organization and we provide a lot of services

04:47 - from birth to all ages.

04:51 - And some of those services include case management,

04:55 - counseling services, support groups.

04:57 - We have prevention and early intervention services, parenting programs.

05:02 - We have an adoption program.

05:05 - We have a older adult case management program.

05:08 - We support Holocaust survivors.

05:11 - So our programs really run the gamut from a lot of different resources

05:14 - that we can provide to individuals who call into our our agency.

05:19 - And one of the programs that we have is the Hoarding Support Program.

05:23 - That program really launched in 2015 when we began developing it.

05:27 - And then the reason that that program came to be

05:31 - is through the older adult case management program that we provide.

05:34 - And that service was case managers and social workers

05:37 - who were doing home visits to help the aging population age in place safely.

05:42 - So they were, you know, doing safety checks in homes.

05:44 - They were providing basic needs, supports, helping

05:47 - people get connected to home health aides, home repairs.

05:50 - All of those kind of things that really make somebody able to age

05:54 - safely in their home and often what they were finding was high levels of clutter

05:59 - that were creating safety issues, mobility issues,

06:03 - potentially somehow like risk of losing housing related issues in rental places.

06:09 - And so from there,

06:10 - what they were doing really was a lot of clean outs.

06:13 - They were calling a cleaning company because there wasn't a lot of other

06:17 - resources to be able to provide at that time.

06:21 - And so they joined the Philadelphia Hoarding Task Force.

06:25 - And through that sort of learned that hoarding disorder

06:28 - was really more prevalent than we realized and applied for a grant.

06:32 - And that grant was a three year grant

06:34 - that allowed the agency to build this program.

06:39 - And that grant started in 2015 when I began working at JFK.

06:43 - And from there, I became a really active part

06:46 - of the task force as well, and was able to get trained

06:50 - formally and like recommended models for hoarding intervention

06:55 - That all included in-home community based work and some support group work,

07:00 - which we can talk about later, more of what that looks like.

07:04 - And so that was really the initiation and the building of the program.

07:08 - And once I got started,

07:09 - you know, the referrals were really just kind of like pouring in.

07:13 - There was a lot of need, a lot of identified

07:16 - clients who were seeking this kind of support.

07:18 - And most of that was because there wasn't a lot of resources in the community

07:23 - that would do that.

07:24 - In-Home hands on work with people who were dealing with hoarding disorder.

07:29 - And Gabe's going to talk a little bit about what our program currently

07:32 - looks like.

07:35 - And so we have three main parts of our hoarding program.

07:39 - First is our individual in-home care

07:42 - management program for those with hoarding disorder.

07:46 - This is a program that works with people in their home

07:50 - and for up to 18 months at a time

07:53 - where a care manager will come who's trained in the model

07:57 - and has a good understanding of hoarding disorder and provide support

08:01 - to help that person get their home to a less cluttered place.

08:06 - So we'll start with an initial assessment where we learn a little bit

08:10 - more both about the home

08:12 - and how this stuff is interfering with the safety and comfort of the home

08:16 - and also about the person.

08:18 - How did it get to this place and what makes it hard to let go

08:21 - of their belongings where they acquiring new belongings?

08:26 - Using that initial assessment, we can then make a treatment plan

08:30 - where we break down the different goals that they have for their home

08:35 - and the steps that would be needed to get there and then spend time

08:40 - doing sorting, doing exercises,

08:44 - checking in on their wellness

08:45 - as they execute this plan

08:49 - and develop more like skills and coping strategies

08:52 - for managing their belongings.

08:55 - We also do assessments every three months which measure

08:59 - things like safety and sanitation issues in the home

09:03 - and how much clutter is interfering with daily life activities

09:07 - and other ways of measuring clutter more visually.

09:13 - So that is the individual program.

09:15 - In addition, we have a support group called Buried in Treasures.

09:19 - This is a 16 week peer support group that happens virtually

09:24 - and overviews a lot of different topics about managing clutter, such as

09:31 - how did I get here?

09:32 - How did this clutter accumulate?

09:34 - We go over the good guys and the bad guys of decluttering.

09:39 - So this includes the good guys being strategies that commonly work well.

09:44 - The bad guys, common pitfalls that people fall into and there

09:49 - that don't lead to progress.

09:52 - We go over tools for reducing acquiring.

09:56 - We go over different steps of the sorting process.

09:59 - So how to prepare to sort different skills

10:02 - involved in sorting and then how to maintain that progress.

10:07 - We go for motivation

10:09 - exercises of how to stay motivated

10:12 - when things are challenging and morale is low.

10:16 - And then we help the members of the group stay connected

10:19 - after Bread and Treasures ends on their own without the guidance

10:24 - of Jvc's facilitator so that they can continue getting that peer support.

10:32 - And then the last part of our

10:34 - program is professional development and community education,

10:38 - where we provide trainings on the basics of hoarding disorder, like it's

10:42 - including its definition, prevalence and research

10:46 - treatment models and more.

10:49 - And we give these trainings to

10:52 - anyone who's interested, including mental health providers,

10:55 - social service providers, law enforcement, first responders,

10:59 - loved ones of people with hoarding disorder.

11:02 - And the trainings can be for different lengths, depending on

11:05 - what the specific needs of that audience is.

11:09 - And we do these trainings in partnership with the Philadelphia Hoarding Task Force,

11:14 - with the goal of creating more hoarding resources in the community and a deeper

11:18 - understanding of hoarding disorder from a mental health lens forever.

11:23 - And that hoarding disorder touches.

11:26 - That sounds like an incredible program.

11:28 - Before we get too deep in our conversation, I'd like to ask you

11:31 - if you could share a definition of what hoarding is.

11:34 - Sure.

11:35 - So hoarding disorder is an official diagnosis.

11:39 - And the DSM, it came out in 2015.

11:43 - It previously was categorized as an anxiety disorder

11:47 - under OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder.

11:50 - And then they realize that there are some really big differences

11:53 - between OCD and hoarding disorder.

11:55 - And so we're eating disorder is categorized by five things.

11:59 - One, and being the most important is difficulty discarding.

12:03 - So individuals with hoarding disorder have a really difficult time

12:07 - letting go of items, and that can be for a wide range of

12:11 - reasons related to the attachment of that item.

12:15 - But letting go of it really can cause a lot of distress and discomfort,

12:19 - which is the second sort of component of the diagnosis is

12:22 - the perceived need and discomfort of discarding with that item.

12:26 - What will it mean if I don't have this item

12:28 - and the memory attached to the item, the sentimentality of it all

12:33 - contributes to

12:34 - them having a difficult time letting go of it.

12:38 - The third component is the accumulation of clutter that interferes with life,

12:43 - meaning spaces are no longer used for their intended purpose.

12:46 - So your living room, your kitchen, your bedroom, commonly used areas

12:50 - that are have very specific uses are no longer

12:55 - utilized due to the level of clutter.

12:58 - And the third is that it causes distress or impaired functioning.

13:02 - So it can create these safety issues,

13:04 - relationship issues, financial issues, employment issues

13:08 - due to the distress and anxiety that comes with with hoarding disorder.

13:14 - Lastly, it's not due to some other mental health or physical health condition,

13:19 - meaning, you know, it's not that you're not able to like

13:23 - physically able to let go of the items, but there is that really strong attachment

13:27 - and distress when you let go of the items.

13:30 - And there's two specifiers that come

13:32 - with hoarding disorder, and that is insight and acquisition.

13:35 - So there are a lot of clients who have a hard time letting go.

13:38 - Are people according to sort of I have a hard time letting go.

13:41 - There's also individuals

13:43 - with hoarding disorder who have a hard time not acquiring.

13:46 - Often they go hand in hand, but sometimes you see people who acquire more

13:51 - and that's really more the main focus.

13:53 - And where we start in the treatment when we're working with folks.

13:57 - And also we see different levels of insight

14:00 - with individuals with hoarding disorder.

14:02 - And so we've seen statistics that are like 15% of people

14:05 - with hoarding disorder have

14:09 - have insight, meaning most do not have

14:11 - insight into how hoarding is impacting their day to day functioning.

14:15 - And so that's also a place

14:16 - where we have to start into a lot of work when we're helping someone

14:20 - who's dealing with hoarding disorder to help them gain that insight

14:23 - and realize how the clutter is impacting their day to day life.

14:27 - Hence the assessments that Gabe was just talking about that

14:30 - that we utilize in our services.

14:34 - One of the things that we know about working with someone

14:37 - with hoarding disorder is that it requires a unique

14:38 - kind of intervention and mental health approach.

14:42 - The work being done in their home is really, really key.

14:44 - We're working hands on with that person

14:47 - and so we have to build a good relationship

14:49 - with them and help them understand, you know,

14:51 - why we're there

14:51 - and that we're on the same team and we're really coming from a place of support.

14:56 - But we do know that about 2 to 6% of

14:58 - the population are dealing with

15:01 - with hoarding behaviors and tendencies and hoarding disorder.

15:05 - So that's really the core definition of what hoarding disorder is based on.

15:10 - The the DSM five

15:12 - thinks that's really helpful understanding to form the basis of our conversation

15:16 - and you touched on this

15:17 - a little bit, but in your work, what does hoarding disorder typically

15:21 - look like both in the home and the impact on those with hoarding disorder?

15:27 - Yeah.

15:28 - So I'll start in the home where hoarding can contribute

15:34 - to safety hazards in the home, such as fire hazards.

15:38 - If there is an accumulation of papers

15:41 - or other things that are flammable, then a fire would spread faster.

15:45 - If it's those things are covering heating sources,

15:49 - there can be infestations.

15:52 - Not that there's necessarily an infestation in a hoarded home,

15:55 - but if there is, it becomes a lot harder to manage and

16:00 - deal with that infestation issue.

16:03 - It can lead to legal issues due to housing code violations

16:08 - and inability to do home repairs or

16:13 - basic maintenance on the home.

16:15 - And as far as the effect on the individual,

16:19 - it can be, first of all, very uncomfortable to live in a hoarded home

16:24 - If you can't do things like cook or move around

16:28 - or clean areas that are getting dusty

16:31 - or sleep with your entire bed

16:34 - or find important things that you need,

16:37 - all those little ways that occurred at home

16:40 - can interfere with daily living, can be very exhausting and uncomfortable

16:46 - and contribute to

16:47 - significant stress, stress of not being able to do those things,

16:51 - and then stress of having a very long

16:54 - to do list of things that need to get done.

16:59 - But it's overwhelming to know how to start or

17:02 - how to how to get through everything.

17:05 - There's also often a lot of shame associated with hoarding disorder,

17:10 - and many people don't want to show their home to others.

17:13 - And this can contribute to social isolation

17:17 - and loss of friendships or important relationships.

17:22 - If you can't invite someone into the home

17:26 - and the impacts can also extend beyond that person into the community.

17:30 - So some of these safety risks that I mentioned, like infestations

17:34 - or fire hazards, can impact neighboring houses or apartments.

17:40 - And then there are also costs associated with hoarding.

17:44 - So sometimes hospitals,

17:48 - when someone is in the hospital and then they realize the home is it

17:51 - and that person can't go home

17:53 - and there are costs associated with them having to stay in the hospital

17:56 - until the home is at a place where they can go back in.

18:00 - Costs associated with clean outs if clean outs are needed to

18:06 - to to clean afford at home.

18:08 - And so these impacts can extend

18:11 - beyond just the individual person as well.

18:15 - Yeah, those impacts are so wide ranging.

18:18 - Many of us have more belongings than we need in our homes.

18:22 - Could you speak to one?

18:23 - It's actually considered to be hoarding.

18:27 - Yeah, absolutely.

18:28 - And it's a question that we hear all the time

18:30 - when we're doing trainings or talking to folks in the community

18:34 - because we all have stuff like in our homes and in our spaces.

18:38 - So there are a few questions that we sort of outline to that

18:44 - you can ask yourself to say is this just that I have these belongings

18:48 - in my home, or when does it sort of tip into hoarding disorder?

18:52 - And and one of those questions is, what is the reason that stuff is accumulating?

18:56 - Is it because I'm having a hard time letting go?

18:58 - Is there an or is there another reason like I'm too busy to clean?

19:03 - Physical disability is preventing me from cleaning.

19:06 - Like, what is the reason that this stuff is accumulating?

19:09 - And when we find that answer, then maybe we can dig in a little bit deeper

19:12 - to help understand like, what is the real need here and how can we provide support.

19:16 - The other question is, is this stuff interfering with how my home

19:20 - is used, contributing to a lack of safety or causing significant distress?

19:25 - So this is back to the spaces are not able to be used for their intended purpose.

19:30 - Like if that's

19:31 - something that you're getting to and that you're noticing in your own home,

19:35 - that would be an indicator that it could potentially be hoarding

19:38 - behavior or hoarding disorder.

19:41 - And that's really one of the biggest things,

19:43 - is why are letting why are letting things go difficult?

19:46 - And are the amount of clutter impacting you

19:50 - from using your spaces for their intended purpose?

19:53 - And that would those would be the two main indicators

19:56 - that would help you realize that we also have an assessment tool

20:00 - that we use, and it's widely available called the Clutter Image rating scale,

20:04 - and it shows visuals of pictures.

20:07 - And that tool is able to help folks say like, where are you on this scale?

20:12 - And anything that it would be a four or above on those pictures

20:16 - would let you know that maybe there is more support needed to help this person.

20:22 - Gotcha.

20:24 - So how does the stigma around hoarding disorder impact

20:27 - folks who are trying to get help?

20:31 - The stigma can impact people in a few different ways.

20:35 - First, there are many misconceptions about people who are hoarding,

20:39 - including that they're lazy or dirty or that they don't want to change.

20:44 - And while it may seem like that,

20:46 - sometimes, often what's happening is that and the person may have tried before

20:51 - and not had success or not knowing how to go about overcoming their clutter.

20:56 - And so it's not that they don't want to change or they're lazy,

21:00 - but that they don't necessarily have the tools to get where they want to go.

21:05 - And in addition to these misconceptions,

21:10 - there are some negative connotations attached to the word hoarding.

21:14 - So, for example, you might be familiar with the TV show Hoarders,

21:21 - and while

21:21 - the show does raise awareness of hoarding,

21:24 - it can sensationalize the issue and

21:29 - portray an intervention in a way where that person

21:33 - who's hoarding doesn't really have much say in what's happening

21:37 - and what stays in their home and what goes in their home.

21:42 - And so

21:43 - and the combination of these connotations and misconceptions

21:48 - means that sometimes some people do ask for help.

21:52 - It doesn't go well.

21:53 - Maybe they have people who come in and just encourage them to

21:58 - throw everything away at once

22:00 - or make them feel ashamed

22:03 - about their inability

22:05 - to overcome their clutter.

22:07 - And that can result in damage relationships with those

22:11 - who are trying to help.

22:13 - If someone's experienced something like this,

22:15 - then they may choose not to reach out for help in the future,

22:19 - for fear that it will go the same way or they'll be judged.

22:25 - And so

22:26 - this is a big barrier for people who are trying to reach out for help

22:31 - and that fear of being misunderstood.

22:34 - And then beyond that individual level,

22:38 - the stigma can impact hoarding supports on a macro level.

22:41 - So if we don't know how to assess for hoarding, there's it's

22:49 - not something that's commonly assessed for so many providers may not assess for it

22:55 - may not realize that hoarding is impacting

22:58 - their clients or their patients.

23:00 - And then even if hoarding is identified,

23:03 - many areas lack the referral sources of the resources

23:09 - necessary to meet the needs of the of their population.

23:12 - And so those who are identified may not have

23:16 - a community based model of hoarding

23:19 - intervention to turn to.

23:22 - Yeah. Thank you.

23:23 - Could you speak to how hoarding disorder can impact someone's housing stability?

23:29 - Yeah, absolutely.

23:30 - There are a

23:30 - handful of ways that hoarding disorder can impact someone's housing stability.

23:35 - One way is it can be hard to do home repairs.

23:37 - So if somebody is in need of any sort of home repair or

23:42 - just preventative maintenance type of work might not be able to get done.

23:46 - Part of that could be because of shame or fear that the person is unwilling

23:50 - to let others into their home

23:51 - to do the work, or to even realize that the work needs to be done.

23:56 - And that can create real safety issues, especially

23:58 - for folks who are, you know, aging in place.

24:02 - And so we want to make sure that the home has it.

24:04 - We're able to get in and do those home repairs.

24:07 - The second is infestation or sanitary conditions

24:10 - may impact individuals, but also people that live around them.

24:15 - So someone in an apartment building,

24:17 - those things could, you know, go into other apartments

24:19 - or impact the quality of life of other residents in those units

24:24 - or row homes and these sort of shared living environments,

24:27 - although we do want to note that not all hoarding situations

24:30 - are unsanitary or have infestations.

24:33 - However, the increased amount of clutter can make it hard to treat for a pest

24:38 - management and can also lead to just increased dust or things like that

24:43 - because you can't clean around the the levels of clutter.

24:47 - One of the really significant issues is it can create housing

24:51 - code violations that lead to fines for that person.

24:56 - It can be really fearful that some other enforcement

24:59 - agency is going to come in and are going to be removed from my home,

25:02 - therefore, preventing somebody from even wanting to seek out support.

25:06 - So fines and dealing with, you know, city code

25:09 - violations can be really challenging.

25:11 - It creates distress with neighbors and other people who are living around them.

25:16 - And also, if someone's in an apartment or a rental unit, it can lead to

25:23 - a violator like these violations all the way up to evictions.

25:26 - And we've seen this a handful of times where we have folks calling us

25:29 - because they're being evicted due to hoarding disorder.

25:32 - And we have to step in.

25:33 - And that can be really detrimental to somebody, especially

25:37 - if they're not able to afford to move or

25:39 - find alternative housing.

25:43 - The last thing that I'll mention

25:44 - is that some some individuals we see

25:49 - it can lead to just financial distress where people might end up

25:51 - having multiple storage units or things that they have to pay for monthly.

25:55 - And then it becomes a choice of do I pay for the storage units

25:59 - or do I pay my rent or do I not eat or, you know, things like that?

26:02 - Because the increased costs and fear of losing their items.

26:06 - And so these are things that we see commonly in our program.

26:10 - Yeah, we're nearing the end of our time today,

26:12 - but I've got to ask you to briefly share about how housing providers and tenants

26:17 - both have roles to play in in resolving hoarding situations, in rental housing.

26:22 - Are there any best practices for housing providers

26:25 - to ensure a successful outcome for both parties?

26:28 - Yeah, there are a few best practices that can help the housing provider

26:34 - working together with that person who's hoarding

26:37 - first is having consistent inspection standards.

26:40 - So avoid scheduling inspections and then not showing up,

26:44 - which can cause a lot of distress for that person who's waiting for the inspection.

26:48 - And then on the flip side,

26:49 - avoiding impromptu inspections without reasonable notice.

26:53 - Another big

26:54 - one is having concrete guidelines on what constitutes a safe home.

26:59 - So oftentimes people, housing providers might say

27:03 - the home needs to be less cluttered or safe and sanitary.

27:07 - But these terms can mean different things to different people,

27:11 - leaving someone unsure when they've met the guidelines.

27:14 - And so more concrete guidelines like having three foot

27:18 - pathways or stacks of things, no higher than four feet or doors

27:22 - able to open for first responders can help

27:26 - make everyone on the same page of what the goal is.

27:31 - And then the last two out quickly

27:32 - note are taking note of the progress, even if small.

27:38 - And then last is emphasizing safety first as the main priority

27:43 - more than the belongings and making

27:47 - sure that that concern for safety is first.

27:51 - Yeah, I can imagine how that that clarity

27:54 - and that focus on that relationship can really help both parties move forward.

28:00 - I could talk with you both all day, but we are just about at the end of our time.

28:04 - Could I ask you to briefly share about what keeps you going on challenging days?

28:10 - I know this must be very challenging work, but also really meaningful work.

28:15 - So what?

28:16 - What keeps you going on those hard days?

28:18 - For me, I think that I used to feel discouraged

28:22 - sometimes and it was hard to see progress and the clients I was working with.

28:26 - But I'm learning that there are so many ways to

28:29 - measure progress, whether it's

28:32 - someone letting go of something they never thought they could,

28:35 - or someone letting someone into their home for the first time in years,

28:40 - or someone maybe their home doesn't look

28:44 - like the cover of a magazine, but they have been able

28:46 - to clear a pathway in their home, and that's made it more safe.

28:50 - And so, yeah, finding

28:54 - those other ways to measure progress.

28:57 - Yeah.

28:57 - And I would say that, you know, for me, when I first started doing this work,

29:00 - someone told me it's like taking one step forward and two steps back every time.

29:04 - And I think that holds true.

29:06 - But that one step forward is really, really impactful.

29:09 - And you see the benefit and the and the partnership in that.

29:12 - And it's really a great thing that keeps you motivated.

29:16 - The other thing I would mention is just the partnership.

29:18 - You know, we to do this work, we really do build a team for everyone

29:22 - that we serve and partnering with community organizations and services

29:27 - is really a cool thing and has allowed us to do

29:30 - and create a lot of innovation around the work.

29:32 - And that's been really great.

29:34 - Courtney and David, thank you so much for the work that you do

29:36 - and thank you for taking the time

29:38 - out of your busy schedules to come on the show this afternoon.

29:41 - We're really grateful to have gotten from you this afternoon.

29:45 - I'd also like to thank our viewers for spending their afternoon learning with us.

29:49 - If you believe that you've experienced housing discrimination

29:52 - or would like to learn more about housing protections in Pennsylvania,

29:56 - give us a call at Chances Fair Housing Line,

29:59 - which is 855, eight, 665718.

30:03 - You can also find us at our website on the screen,

30:06 - which is dot gov slash eon

30:09 - slash agencies slash HRC.

30:12 - You can also keep up with our work on Facebook, Instagram, X, YouTube

30:16 - or LinkedIn.

30:17 - And remember, our communities are stronger when everyone has a place to call home.

30:21 - We'll see you next time.

30:24 - This program has been paid

30:25 - for by the sponsor and does not reflect the views of PCN.