00:29 - Welcome to the African-American experience.

00:32 - I'm Corey Clark.

00:33 - From the beginning of the Great Depression through the end of World War two,

00:36 - the African American community

00:38 - in Philadelphia underwent a major political realignment.

00:42 - Joining us to talk about this political transformation is Stanley Arnold,

00:46 - an associate professor of history at Northern Illinois University

00:49 - and contributing author of If there is No Struggle, there is No progress

00:54 - Black Politics in 20th Century Philadelphia.

00:58 - Doctor Arnold, thank you for joining us.

01:00 - Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

01:03 - Set the stage for us.

01:05 - Leading up to the Great Depression, what was the economic

01:09 - and political climate like for, African-Americans in Philadelphia?

01:14 - Well, here's the thing.

01:16 - The, African-American population was growing

01:20 - as a result of the Great Depression or the.

01:22 - I'm sorry, the Great Migration.

01:24 - And, so you had, massive increase

01:28 - of of people moving for work,

01:31 - and also to escape the intense Jim Crow racism of the South.

01:37 - And, they, they come at a time when, for the first time,

01:42 - industry, northern industry is opening its doors.

01:47 - Not necessarily

01:50 - because they want to, but because World War

01:54 - One is going to dry up the supply of immigrant labor.

01:59 - And there's a need for, labor.

02:01 - There's a need for people to work in munitions factories in Philadelphia,

02:05 - in the shipyards along the Delaware River. And,

02:10 - Philadelphia's black

02:11 - population increases exponentially during this period.

02:15 - The problem is,

02:18 - there's a lot of resistance, on the part of the,

02:22 - some elements of the white community, to

02:25 - the African American presence and,

02:28 - there's a lot of tension.

02:30 - There's there's racial violence during World War,

02:33 - during World War one, most notably in South Philadelphia.

02:37 - In addition, within the black community, there are,

02:42 - Philadelphians, that is, black Philadelphians who've been around for,

02:45 - prior to the, migration,

02:48 - been around since the 1700s

02:52 - who were a little,

02:54 - what kind of how can I put it?

02:57 - Concerned about this new migration, about, you know, how how these,

03:03 - these new folks are going to to fit in, and, these folks that have been around

03:08 - since the 1700s tend to have or have a little more money, a little more clout,

03:15 - and, or

03:16 - are tied to the city's white establishment.

03:19 - And, Philadelphia has, politically

03:23 - a, a Republican machine

03:26 - that's been in place since the Civil War.

03:30 - And, there was a lot of corruption,

03:34 - and, my, colleague David Canton, deals with that in the book.

03:40 - So this is, a plot for the book.

03:42 - So, Dave, who is in and who is the

03:45 - director of the center for Black Studies,

03:48 - at the University of Florida.

03:51 - Check out his work on this book and others.

03:54 - But most blacks in the city at this time were Republicans, right?

03:59 - Yeah.

04:00 - There were was this a time of, we started to see that,

04:04 - connection between the Republican Party and the black community, weakened.

04:10 - It begins to weaken in the 1920s.

04:13 - Okay, now, there's a couple of factors in Philadelphia.

04:18 - If you vote for the Republicans

04:21 - and if you have the right connections, you can get a job.

04:24 - Okay.

04:24 - And that's, you know, working in public works.

04:30 - And, it certainly helps.

04:32 - And I mentioned that I'm from Delco, Delaware County.

04:35 - There is also a Republican,

04:39 - machine there known as the War Board, which is actually existed

04:42 - before the Civil War.

04:44 - And, there are some members of my family who were involved in that.

04:48 - And the thing is, because the Democratic Party was

04:54 - so southern centered,

04:57 - so tied into the Ku Klux Klan, which was massive

05:01 - in terms of its membership and its power in the 1920s.

05:05 - The Democrats were so segregationist.

05:09 - It was,

05:12 - relatively easy for the Republicans

05:14 - to, say, look, we are the party of Lincoln.

05:19 - We are the party of liberation.

05:21 - We are the party of, the abolitionist movement.

05:25 - We are the party of reconstruction.

05:27 - Although arguably they didn't do that much in terms of,

05:31 - preserving the rights of the newly emancipated.

05:35 - There's the majority of that party. So,

05:40 - increasingly,

05:41 - African-Americans in Philadelphia and across the nation are becoming

05:45 - increasingly disillusioned with the Republicans and,

05:51 - it's it's interesting.

05:52 - I just, I'm teaching a course on 1900 to 1929

05:58 - and the Mississippi River flood, which kills, over 500 people

06:03 - and disproportionately impacts African Americans.

06:08 - Well, contribute to this shift.

06:11 - Barr Moten, who is, Booker

06:14 - T Washington's successor.

06:18 - Tuskegee is involved in the relief efforts, and he fuels that.

06:22 - The Republicans aren't doing enough.

06:25 - College and Hoover and,

06:31 - This is going to,

06:33 - lead him, and, you know, he's

06:36 - he's what we would call today an influence or,

06:39 - to become more

06:42 - skeptical of the Republicans and also the,

06:47 - the lack of, sufficient support for an anti-lynching bill.

06:51 - And, this is going to pave the way

06:54 - for the Democrats to try to make inroads in the 1928 elections, where you have

07:00 - a, for the first time, a Roman Catholic

07:04 - and Irish-American, Al Smith,

07:06 - from New York City, whose former governor

07:09 - who has a pretty strong civil rights plank and

07:13 - and really capitalizes on growing black,

07:18 - distrust, of the Republicans.

07:22 - And remember, you know,

07:25 - you've got a demographic transformation.

07:28 - Millions of African-Americans are moving north.

07:30 - And this also involves African American women

07:34 - who, after 1920, like white women, can vote.

07:38 - That is in the North, without any kind of encumbrances.

07:43 - So, the stage is set for African Americans to,

07:49 - weigh their options politically.

07:51 - Let's put it that way.

07:53 - And among those options was the Communist

07:56 - Party, starting to become a factor as well?

08:00 - Definitely, definitely.

08:02 - The Communist Party, reaches its height during the depression.

08:07 - And,

08:09 - it's the only political party in the United States that, calls

08:13 - for the execution of lynchings, capital punishment.

08:19 - Something neither party is, is doing.

08:22 - And certainly, capitalizing on,

08:29 - Class issues.

08:31 - Obviously, the Communist Party of the United States,

08:34 - looks at African-Americans as, members of,

08:38 - the working class,

08:41 - a, an oppressed group within this working class

08:45 - and, seeks to build, relations shifts between,

08:50 - white working class people and black working class people.

08:54 - And,

08:56 - you've got to understand that, you know, in 1929,

09:03 - and the aftermath, it really

09:05 - seems like the system has totally failed.

09:09 - And so this leaves people, African-Americans, whites,

09:14 - Americans of all, races, of all faiths to think, well, maybe are there

09:20 - are there any other economic or political options out there

09:23 - we should be interested in?

09:25 - And, in Philadelphia,

09:28 - in some ways, the stage was set

09:31 - even earlier in the teens and the the 20s.

09:34 - There was, an African-American union leader named Ben Fletcher,

09:38 - who organized an interracial dockworkers.

09:42 - And, he was a member of a radical,

09:46 - union coalition called

09:48 - the IWW, the Industrial Workers of the world.

09:51 - Their goal was to,

09:54 - organize workers regardless of race,

09:58 - regardless of skill, regardless, regardless of gender.

10:03 - And, they were extremely critical

10:07 - of of capitalism in the United States and elsewhere.

10:10 - So, so, you know, the ground is set for,

10:14 - more radical options in Philadelphia.

10:18 - And who was Marshall Shepherd who sort of came into the

10:22 - public eye around this time,

10:24 - you know,

10:24 - Marshall Shepherd's, extremely important,

10:29 - he comes he's one of the,

10:32 - the migrants, and, it comes to West.

10:35 - He comes to West Philadelphia.

10:37 - Although he has had some experience,

10:40 - in New York City.

10:41 - So he's somewhat,

10:44 - cosmopolitan, and,

10:49 - he takes the lead

10:50 - in, bringing blacks to the Democratic Party.

10:54 - And,

10:57 - you know, he'll become quite influential during, during this period.

11:00 - And, as I mentioned in my, my work

11:03 - rising to elective office in the Pennsylvania legislature.

11:07 - So he's, he's he's,

11:10 - quite an important and figure,

11:13 - he is a confident,

11:18 - Reverend,

11:22 - Clayton Powell in, in Harlem. So,

11:27 - you know, he's

11:29 - he's a figure that probably needs more attention

11:33 - and, talk about that 32 election.

11:36 - So, FDR is FDR sort of a bellwether when it comes to what we're talking about?

11:43 - The the African American community.

11:45 - Coming over to the Democratic Party,

11:49 - because it seems like he seemed he tended to do better, each election.

11:54 - But in 1932, in particular, what was the, the, the feeling

11:58 - towards him in Philadelphia and who was, who was backing him and who was it?

12:03 - I think I think the African American community was divided.

12:07 - Okay.

12:09 - FDR had obviously as a Democratic

12:13 - politician, had strong ties to, the Democratic Party of the South.

12:20 - And, there were

12:21 - there were some, African-Americans who were concerned about,

12:26 - FDR, his role as assistant secretary

12:29 - of the Navy under, under Wilson.

12:32 - And, as we know, the,

12:36 - the U.S.

12:37 - occupied Haiti from 1915 well into the 1930s.

12:41 - And, Roosevelt was part of that

12:44 - brutal, a brutal occupation.

12:47 - And, in many cases,

12:51 - well, his his running mate was,

12:56 - a, a Southern

12:58 - Democrat, John Nance of Texas.

13:01 - So there was, considerable amount of concern about

13:06 - whether Roosevelt could be,

13:09 - could be trusted.

13:11 - He hadn't really fleshed out this idea of the New Deal.

13:13 - On the other hand, if you had any kind of understanding

13:19 - of what Roosevelt had been doing in New York, you could see that

13:23 - his progressive policies

13:24 - were having an impact on, the African-American population.

13:28 - So, you know, wasn't

13:33 - wasn't just it wasn't just, I think there was a belief that,

13:38 - you know, FDR runs that African Americans immediately support them.

13:42 - No, no, it's it's quite it's quite, nuanced.

13:45 - And people are very, very, selective

13:50 - and increasingly politically astute.

13:54 - Okay. and remember, for a lot of migrants,

13:58 - this is the first time they can vote, okay?

14:00 - So they are really paying attention, because of the,

14:05 - you know, barriers to voting in the South.

14:09 - Another name is, Joseph Guffey.

14:13 - What was his role, in, in the,

14:17 - the FDR campaign and getting getting FDR more,

14:21 - support from the African-American community?

14:24 - Yeah.

14:25 - Guffey, who will, later become

14:28 - governor of Pennsylvania, is, is is, you know, and,

14:33 - is is someone who is extremely good at building a ground game.

14:38 - And, this,

14:42 - you know, in an era where you don't have,

14:44 - when you don't have the technology that we have today,

14:48 - this is extremely, extremely important.

14:51 - And, one of the things that I found out in terms of researching this is that,

14:56 - this May made all the difference.

14:58 - Community organizations, churches,

15:01 - labor unions, this was a way to mobilize the African-American population,

15:07 - because and it's quite easy to say, look, FDR,

15:13 - you know, has this idea of a new deal,

15:15 - and there's even this little New Deal in Pennsylvania that comes along.

15:19 - But,

15:21 - Hoover doesn't seem to be doing much of anything.

15:24 - In terms of,

15:28 - in terms of relief, it's simply the the problem is too big.

15:32 - Okay.

15:32 - And by 1932, a quarter of the,

15:36 - American population is unemployed.

15:40 - Another 25%,

15:43 - is only working part time.

15:45 - It's even higher in the African-American community.

15:48 - So, people are increasingly desperate.

15:52 - And, it's

15:55 - it's quite understandable that,

16:00 - people are going to be looking

16:01 - for, new ideas, new options.

16:05 - Something beside

16:07 - Hoover is belief that if we just,

16:11 - you know, tighten our belts and we,

16:16 - Work with business leaders.

16:18 - And we involve

16:22 - Hoover and this concept of an associational,

16:26 - state,

16:27 - private organizations, the Boy Scouts,

16:31 - they just simply can't handle the enormity of the depression.

16:34 - You know, Hoover's ideas.

16:36 - So it's going to take something quite large and quite different.

16:40 - Right, so FDR is elected in 32, and then,

16:44 - we see more signs of the shift in his midterms.

16:48 - The aforementioned, Marshall Shepherd gets elected to the,

16:53 - the state legislature and becomes the first African-American

16:58 - in the Pennsylvania legislature, right.

17:01 - The first Democratic.

17:04 - Okay. There have been, right.

17:05 - First Democratic. Right.

17:07 - As a sign of the times, the first Democratic sign of the times.

17:10 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:11 - And here's the thing.

17:13 - These it's remember, FDR

17:17 - sets out this concept that every president has followed since,

17:21 - he says, I'm going to do certain things

17:24 - in the first 100 days, stabilize the, banking situation,

17:29 - stabilizing the disaster in, American agriculture.

17:35 - He begins his jobs programs.

17:38 - So you have a situation

17:41 - in, in Philadelphia, in the nation where,

17:45 - in 1932, everyone seems to know somebody,

17:51 - who's been impacted,

17:54 - by the Great Depression.

17:58 - By 34 and especially by 36,

18:02 - you know, somebody who's been helped by one of FDR programs.

18:06 - Okay.

18:07 - And, the,

18:10 - the way FDR operated was, basically,

18:14 - we'll try something,

18:18 - if it works, we'll stay with it.

18:20 - If it fails,

18:22 - it's water under the bridge and we'll just try something else.

18:25 - We won't dwell on any of our failures.

18:28 - And so we've got to keep moving.

18:31 - We've got to keep moving along.

18:33 - And, in contrast to Hoover as well,

18:37 - he was a, master at, communication.

18:41 - Utilizing the radio more than any other, president had.

18:46 - And radio was in its infancy.

18:49 - Had only been around for about ten years.

18:52 - But, Roosevelt with his fireside chats,

18:55 - really, really,

18:59 - impacted the nation.

19:01 - Can you talk a little bit more about, we've mentioned the New Deal,

19:04 - but can you talk a little bit more about what that entailed and,

19:08 - how Pennsylvania, was affected by it and, and blacks in Pennsylvania.

19:13 - Yeah, yeah.

19:14 - For example,

19:18 - obviously there's high unemployment.

19:23 - One of FDR most popular,

19:25 - programs was a Civilian Conservation Corps.

19:29 - The Civilian Conservation Corps was,

19:33 - so, covered a lot of different terrain.

19:37 - Physically, the the goal, the,

19:41 - principal goal of the CTC was to,

19:47 - transform

19:48 - the American environment, specifically state parks.

19:52 - National parks.

19:55 - It took young men.

19:57 - Okay. Now, this is important.

19:59 - Young men whose families were on relief, as we call public assistance.

20:03 - And at a certain age, late teens, 20s,

20:09 - out of the cities, out of the towns

20:11 - and sent them to these camps run by the army.

20:15 - They wore uniforms, they were involved in various different projects

20:20 - in, in, in national forest, national parks, state parks,

20:26 - construction,

20:29 - reforestation.

20:31 - And so with this, you remove this

20:35 - all of this element, young men unemployed

20:40 - could getting involved in crime,

20:43 - or perhaps could get involved in political activities,

20:47 - potentially revolution, militant political activities.

20:52 - And, it,

20:57 - the program gives them some money,

20:59 - but most of the money is sent back to their, their families.

21:02 - And there are also these educational programs

21:05 - at these camps.

21:08 - Most,

21:10 - I think only, with the exception of Wisconsin

21:13 - and Vermont, most of these camps are segregated, however.

21:17 - Okay.

21:17 - And even in Pennsylvania. Right.

21:21 - Pennsylvania. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

21:23 - And,

21:26 - it certainly helped, several of my uncles,

21:29 - who were, as I've, tell my students, I'm

21:32 - told my, my, my, my kids, the two sons that,

21:37 - my uncles were, hobos for a while.

21:41 - They rode the rails, from Philadelphia to Indiana looking for work.

21:46 - And they find it, they were, you know, in their, late teens or early 20s,

21:52 - they would find work for a few days

21:55 - and, just, you know, couldn't find anything permanent.

22:00 - They came back and boom, they got involved in the CTC.

22:05 - And that really changed their lives. Okay.

22:08 - And I think, those of us who are children of people from this

22:13 - period always have stories about the depression,

22:16 - about, the hardships the people endured.

22:21 - My uncles,

22:24 - basically,

22:28 - taking coal from,

22:30 - coal trains, and, which everyone in the neighborhood

22:34 - did very early in the morning and then, coming back after the trains had left,

22:40 - and smashing it up so there would be,

22:43 - you know, heat,

22:46 - on the other hand, it was also found living close to the railroad track.

22:50 - There were a lot of transients, hobos who would knock

22:53 - at the door and ask for, and ask for food.

22:57 - And even those who didn't have that much seemed always willing to share.

23:02 - And that's one of the things that, I think obviously,

23:06 - you know, a out of this, out of this hardship,

23:10 - grew, or emerged, quite a bit of compassion,

23:15 - you know, across across racial and ethnic lines, in many cases.

23:20 - I want to highlight another, result of the 34 election,

23:25 - which was, George Earl being elected.

23:28 - Governor.

23:29 - What was the significance of that?

23:31 - Ron, I should,

23:34 - mention coffee had another role, but, Earl's really important

23:38 - because, Pennsylvania had long been a Republican stronghold.

23:43 - And Earl, what Earl attempts to do is to, create

23:50 - similar programs, jobs, programs, programs, margins.

23:54 - That's emergency programs.

23:56 - On a smaller scale,

24:00 - it's important

24:01 - in 19, when women are also elected because it's not clear

24:07 - that FDR is going to be reelected in 36.

24:10 - We look at this now through the prism of history and, and,

24:15 - you know, presume that everyone

24:17 - in America supported, supported Roosevelt

24:20 - and, true, he had a lot of support, growing support in the black community.

24:25 - But some people thought, well.

24:29 - You know, government is becoming too big with all these various

24:33 - these alphabet soup of programs that tweak the WPA.

24:40 - You are they going to only last

24:42 - for a few years or they going to become, permanent people?

24:47 - People don't

24:50 - ever want to work in the private sector again.

24:52 - So there there's some concern.

24:54 - So one of the things that Earl is thinking about

24:58 - is in case Roosevelt loses, how can we, and others,

25:03 - you know, continue, to support,

25:10 - people who are in desperate straits.

25:12 - So, and Earl reaches out to the black community in a way that,

25:18 - I think, certainly previous Republican governors had not.

25:23 - Okay.

25:23 - And, that's, I think, extremely, extremely important

25:28 - to someone who sees that, the tide is turning.

25:32 - Right.

25:33 - There's a picture, in your article, there's a picture of Earl sitting there,

25:37 - and he's surrounded by, several African Americans,

25:41 - significant African Americans in politics at the time.

25:46 - Austin Norris, Marshall Shepherd, who we talked about,

25:49 - Joseph Rainey Jr and, State Representative Crystal Byrd.

25:55 - Fossett.

25:56 - So he, clearly was making a connection with,

26:00 - the African American community in, in Pennsylvania.

26:05 - Yeah. And here's the thing.

26:06 - I mean, we we we think, you know,

26:11 - to be that physically close,

26:13 - surrounded by African Americans for, a white politician in the 1930s,

26:19 - even in the North was, can I put it, I'll be diplomatic.

26:24 - Uncommon. Okay.

26:26 - That the physical closeness.

26:29 - So, I think, with that, with that photograph, he's he's

26:33 - he's making a statement and,

26:38 - it again, it's it's not,

26:43 - It's it's not,

26:45 - a situation where all African Americans

26:48 - suddenly turned, in vote for the the Democrats.

26:53 - But it's it's not a flood, but it's a,

26:58 - it's a it's a stream.

26:59 - And at certain points, it's, it's fast moving.

27:03 - You you said earlier, they if Roosevelt were to win, they wanted Roosevelt to win.

27:07 - Roosevelt clearly was,

27:11 - aware of that idea that Pennsylvania was important.

27:14 - So the, the 1936 Democratic

27:17 - National Convention, took place in Philadelphia, right?

27:21 - Yes. It did. Yes. Yeah.

27:23 - Yeah, yeah.

27:24 - Pennsylvania is a key state in terms of population,

27:27 - in terms of electoral votes.

27:29 - And even today it's pretty much of a bellwether

27:32 - in terms of presidential elections.

27:35 - And he continued to do better and better.

27:37 - Getting more and more of the city's, black vote and.

27:41 - Yes, in 36. Right?

27:43 - Yes. Yes, definitely.

27:45 - Okay.

27:45 - Again, I mean, the these jobs programs make a dent in unemployment.

27:53 - They don't necessarily solve the depression.

27:56 - That's that's an important,

27:59 - but I think in some ways,

28:01 - it, lifts the spirits of so many people.

28:05 - Okay.

28:05 - To, to understand that there are these programs out there, you know,

28:09 - somebody who is benefiting by them,

28:12 - who is not losing their house, who is not being thrown out on the street.

28:17 - Which is, which is a, a problem,

28:20 - a major problem during this period. so,

28:24 - and also the reassurance that FDR

28:27 - gives through his fireside chats on the radio,

28:31 - another convention was held in Philadelphia in,

28:34 - 37, the National Negro, Congress,

28:38 - talk about what that organization was and

28:42 - what their, role was in Philadelphia.

28:45 - Well, the National Negro Congress was,

28:51 - an organization of, a coalition,

28:53 - that, attempted to,

28:58 - you know,

28:59 - bring in more economic issues,

29:03 - and to also, I mean, obviously

29:05 - they're they're heavily influenced, by the U.N.

29:08 - Oh, yeah.

29:09 - The Universal Negro Improvement Association of Mortgages, Marcus Garvey.

29:14 - But, what they want to do

29:18 - is to, I mean, they don't want to to start a new political party,

29:23 - but they want to move the Democratic Party

29:27 - in the direction of civil rights, that is the National Democratic Party.

29:33 - Because what, what you will have

29:36 - is a situation where the Democratic Party is,

29:40 - going to be increasingly divided over this issue of civil rights.

29:46 - And, this is an organization

29:48 - that has intellectuals, people like Arthur Hoffer said,

29:52 - who a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania,

29:58 - and is one of the, city's

30:00 - few African-American principles,

30:03 - and rights major,

30:07 - major author obviously influenced by the Harlem Renaissance,

30:10 - and the, National Negro,

30:14 - Congress was going to attract people like this in terms of leadership.

30:19 - But it's also going to attempt to build a broad base of, of support.

30:24 - And it is looking at international issues to,

30:29 - you know, the growing fight against fascism

30:34 - in Europe.

30:34 - The rise of Hitler and Mussolini,

30:39 - and, the continued,

30:43 - colonization, of Africa,

30:46 - the West Indies, and, Asia

30:50 - by European powers. So,

30:53 - they have an important impact.

30:55 - Talk about another person in the Fossett family.

30:59 - Who was, Byrd.

31:01 - Fossett, crystal bird.

31:03 - Fossett was, one of the, again, somebody else who had migrated, from,

31:11 - from, the South.

31:13 - And, she, gets involved,

31:16 - in, in politics and civil rights

31:19 - through working, at the,

31:23 - y, in, in New York City,

31:26 - and,

31:30 - she comes to Philadelphia where she's has a number of,

31:33 - number of families, and B begins

31:37 - to build a ground game in terms of,

31:41 - in terms of,

31:43 - electoral politics,

31:48 - it's interesting.

31:50 - Crystal virtual said,

31:53 - wins election to the Pennsylvania,

31:55 - legislature, becomes the first African-American woman elected

31:59 - to a, state legislature, but she does it in a in a district.

32:03 - That's not necessarily that's not all black.

32:06 - But, and she wins with a fair amount of white support.

32:11 - Which demonstrates that,

32:17 - some of the racial barriers,

32:20 - that have existed in Philadelphia, at least in this one electoral district

32:25 - began to, begin to break, are breaking down.

32:31 - And, she rises in

32:33 - prominence not just in Pennsylvania, but also nationally.

32:37 - She will become a confidant of,

32:40 - Eleanor Roosevelt, who is definitely,

32:43 - in terms of race relations,

32:46 - in terms of civil rights and, other policies

32:50 - more progressive than her husband.

32:55 - Bear in mind,

32:56 - that although the Democrats have,

33:00 - control Congress,

33:03 - the most powerful people in Congress

33:06 - are southern Democrats, that is white southern

33:09 - Democrats, but is segregationist.

33:13 - And, you know, as

33:16 - you know.

33:19 - To a certain extent,

33:21 - Roosevelt has to play with the cards he's dealt.

33:24 - But,

33:27 - as I mentioned, this segregationist

33:29 - wing of the Democratic Party will exist until the 1960s.

33:34 - Okay.

33:35 - When they will,

33:40 - begin to move away from the,

33:42 - the Democrats, the 1964 election specifically.

33:47 - Let's talk about the,

33:50 - the role that the, labor unions played in the city at that time.

33:54 - And what was the relationship between the labor unions,

33:58 - the political scene, and, the African-Americans

34:01 - role in that?

34:04 - Here's the thing.

34:05 - There's a lot of discrimination within,

34:11 - labor unions, specifically the skilled trades.

34:15 - And as jobs become more and more scarce,

34:19 - this simply this increases, in many cases,

34:23 - I mean, this is what Ben Fletcher and others were trying to do

34:26 - with the IWW.

34:31 - In terms

34:32 - of labor history in the United States,

34:35 - the AFL, the American Federation of Labor believed that it was only skilled

34:40 - workers should have the privilege, the right to form Urines.

34:45 - Now, for,

34:48 - you know, from the 18 late 1800s until the,

34:52 - you know, early 20th century, this is overwhelmingly white men,

34:56 - white American born men, and,

35:00 - those with specific skills carpenter, plumber, etcetera.

35:07 - What you will see, building.

35:10 - I just want to mention two things is,

35:13 - a, a new labor organization.

35:16 - Called the Congress of Industrial Organization,

35:20 - which seeks to,

35:24 - organize all workers,

35:26 - regardless of specific skill level.

35:29 - And I when I say skilled worker, I mean someone who goes through,

35:33 - the, skill trades beginning as an apprentice, advances to a journeyman

35:39 - and then ends up finishes their career as a master.

35:43 - So, the CIO,

35:47 - influenced somewhat by the IWW,

35:52 - begins to organize workers who are,

35:57 - working on assembly lines in factories,

35:59 - dogs, workers, shipyard workers,

36:04 - one of the,

36:07 - areas where,

36:09 - this, and these are a growing number.

36:13 - Obviously African-Americans are working in a lot of these so-called unskilled jobs

36:17 - because arguably every job involves some, certainly a certain level of skill.

36:24 - The, garbage workers union,

36:26 - becomes increasingly prominent in Philadelphia.

36:30 - And, this is a union that,

36:36 - is composed mainly of African Americans,

36:40 - and, first and second generation European immigrants.

36:44 - It's in contrast, I think other, certainly other unions,

36:50 - African Americans will begin to, climb the ranks

36:54 - some of of leadership with, with, within the garbage workers union.

36:59 - And, they become,

37:03 - a thorn in the city side

37:05 - because, the last thing you want is large amounts of,

37:09 - garbage piled up in the city streets during the depression.

37:14 - But they work under they work for low pay and, extreme

37:18 - and all kinds of weather and extremely difficult conditions.

37:22 - So, they're, they're

37:27 - they're quite important in this period, especially in the late 1930s.

37:31 - And keep this in mind, okay.

37:33 - For the first time in American history,

37:37 - the white House, the

37:38 - president supports unionization.

37:42 - Okay, so,

37:45 - this basically, even though jobs are scarce,

37:51 - what Roosevelt has given the green light for,

37:55 - is if you if you want to unionize

37:59 - the federal government through the Wagner Act has your back.

38:02 - Okay.

38:03 - In a way that didn't exist before, there was no clear right to unionization.

38:08 - Obviously, this is going to be challenged.

38:12 - It's challenged even within the Democratic Party.

38:14 - Not not just the Republicans.

38:16 - And who should who should unionize, but,

38:20 - this is important.

38:22 - This is extremely important.

38:24 - This is a major shift in American labor history.

38:28 - And with the coming of, World War Two,

38:30 - it was actually a boon to the Philadelphia area.

38:34 - Right.

38:34 - But African Americans still had to fight to get a part of that.

38:40 - Part of those, those jobs and,

38:43 - an increase of jobs and money into the, into the area and talk about

38:48 - what the industries were that, that were affected by it.

38:53 - It off. Yeah.

38:54 - There is,

38:57 - a major shipbuilding center,

38:59 - Hog Island, which is where the,

39:02 - international airport is now during World

39:05 - War one was the largest shipyard in the world.

39:08 - There's shipyards in Camden, there's shipyards

39:11 - in, Chester, not too far from where I grew up.

39:15 - And certainly a lot of people in my family were, were shipbuilders,

39:20 - neighbors,

39:23 - you have this on one hand, Philadelphia is,

39:30 - sometimes called the workshop of the world.

39:32 - It it doesn't have the steel,

39:35 - industry of Pittsburgh dominating it, nor the,

39:41 - the automobile industry like Detroit.

39:43 - But it is a major, producer of, of,

39:48 - industrial equipment for example, sales in the northeast to county

39:54 - to county neighborhood, but also,

39:57 - railroad equipment and Philadelphia here,

40:00 - is also home to one of the country's oldest

40:05 - naval installations, the Philadelphia Navy Yard.

40:09 - One of the military's most important production centers,

40:14 - the Frankford Arsenal, in Franklin, the Frankford section of Philadelphia.

40:19 - In addition, Philadelphia has always been

40:23 - a, a center of textile production during wartime.

40:27 - It dresses and shirts are being made for civilians, rather,

40:33 - tense uniforms and other,

40:39 - equipment are,

40:40 - are being made for the military.

40:43 - So Philadelphia is extremely important.

40:46 - And it's also a port city, which means there are, commercial ships,

40:51 - there are military ships coming in and out of the harbor.

40:55 - So it's it's it's an extremely important, place.

40:59 - And,

41:01 - although it's,

41:02 - it's shifted and obviously declined

41:05 - in population as other cities have,

41:08 - merge of Philadelphia is the the country's

41:11 - third largest city at this point.

41:14 - Right behind New York and Chicago.

41:17 - In about,

41:20 - you were saying about African-Americans.

41:22 - Yeah. yeah.

41:25 - There's, as these jobs open up,

41:28 - there's a lot of competition, let's put it that way.

41:32 - And the competition on, racial and ethnic lines and,

41:38 - there will be massive demonstrations

41:40 - in Philadelphia and,

41:44 - as, there is a march planned,

41:47 - in Washington before the war.

41:50 - Okay.

41:51 - In 1941, before Pearl Harbor, with, backing of a Philip Randolph.

41:56 - You know, the organizations like the National Negro Congress

42:00 - are really pushing this, and other organizing.

42:03 - And what this is going to the goal of this is to, to to say

42:08 - to FDR, you're not doing enough, okay, in terms of employment.

42:13 - These are good paying jobs.

42:19 - African Americans need these jobs.

42:21 - And also as, it's it's

42:25 - clear, war is a possibility.

42:28 - We want to demonstrate our patriotism.

42:31 - Okay?

42:32 - We're we're we're good citizens.

42:34 - We are. We're not second class citizens.

42:37 - This is a way to do it on the home front.

42:40 - And, Well, it works.

42:44 - The pressure works, and,

42:51 - FDR signs the, an executive order banning discrimination

42:56 - in the defense industry, but,

42:59 - a law is only as good

43:02 - as, its enforcement.

43:04 - And this will become a struggle throughout, throughout the war.

43:08 - Okay.

43:09 - Are these companies, you know, shipyards,

43:16 - Baldwin locomotives?

43:19 - Are they, living up to,

43:23 - the law?

43:24 - Are they are they hiring African Americans on an equal basis?

43:29 - What was the African American communities?

43:32 - Opinion on the war?

43:33 - You mentioned that they wanted to show their patriotism.

43:36 - So were they actively,

43:39 - in support of, World War two?

43:42 - Well, here's the thing.

43:43 - I think that,

43:47 - there was a concern,

43:48 - that, the African Americans weren't.

43:52 - I mean, it's hard to believe we're going to be,

43:56 - firmly on the side of, or or that enthusiastic about the war.

44:01 - So, there is a lot of,

44:05 - propaganda from the U.S government, which is countering.

44:10 - Actually, there is Japanese propaganda.

44:12 - It's basically saying, why should you fight in this war?

44:17 - The way that you were treated, on the other hand,

44:21 - it's clear and,

44:23 - I, I also work in the field of race and sports,

44:28 - and I'm currently working on a book on African American Olympians.

44:34 - It's it's clear to so many African Americans,

44:39 - but Hitler is not different, okay?

44:42 - Hitler is an enemy.

44:44 - Based based on,

44:46 - what he has written about, racial superiority.

44:51 - And certainly the 19 there was there

44:55 - was, there was division over the 1936 Olympics.

44:58 - Should we participate and give them this platform,

45:02 - or should we demonstrate that,

45:05 - the the Germans, the Nazis, that is, are not super people

45:10 - as they thought they were, intellectually and and physically.

45:14 - Okay.

45:14 - And also keep in mind a lot of African Americans

45:19 - were sympathetic to what had happened to Ethiopia in the mid 1930s.

45:25 - An ancient African independent

45:28 - country was invaded by Italy.

45:32 - And African-Americans

45:35 - volunteered to, to fight for them, to fight for Italy.

45:38 - So, there is a concern,

45:42 - you know, that, well.

45:47 - What are we going to get out of this war? So,

45:50 - the,

45:53 - as I said, there's no

45:55 - there's the media landscape is is somewhat limited compared to today,

46:00 - but there is this concept of the double V that, emerges out of the Pittsburgh

46:06 - Courier, the country, one of the country's, most prominent

46:10 - and popular African-American,

46:14 - newspapers and, the publisher,

46:19 - Vance says, he's

46:22 - would say in the, early

46:24 - part of the 30s, we've got to turn Lincoln's picture to the wall.

46:28 - The the Republicans aren't doing anything to us.

46:31 - So we have to look at other options.

46:32 - But the double V means victory against against fascism,

46:37 - nationalism abroad, but victory

46:40 - against racism and segregation at home.

46:43 - Okay, so,

46:48 - it's, with this,

46:53 - concept, I think,

46:57 - and so many scholars have made this argument,

47:02 - you know, the, the civil rights movement

47:04 - would have looked very different had there not been World War Two.

47:09 - Now, keep in mind, World War One saw African-American participation,

47:14 - but when African American troops returned home,

47:17 - they found, they found, you know, racist,

47:23 - you know,

47:24 - race riots in the summer of 1919 and,

47:30 - certainly,

47:32 - there were a lot of,

47:34 - there were a lot who felt like this isn't going to happen again.

47:37 - You're going into the military service

47:40 - that things are going to be different this time.

47:44 - We're going we're going to somehow utilize

47:46 - this experience to better our condition.

47:49 - I don't,

47:51 - and so I, we we should,

47:54 - I guess, continue to tell this story of,

47:58 - over all of this time with each election of FDR,

48:02 - the African American community in Philadelphia, and I guess also in

48:06 - the nation, became more and more aligned with, the Democratic Party.

48:12 - Yes, yes.

48:14 - Certainly.

48:18 - Certainly the, executive order helped.

48:21 - Okay.

48:22 - And there's something else that I mean, Bird Falls.

48:26 - That is not necessarily a part of this, but

48:30 - FDR does have a group

48:33 - of informal African-American advisers,

48:37 - overwhelmingly presidents of HBC use.

48:41 - They're called the, black cabinet.

48:44 - And,

48:46 - we can argue about how effective they are,

48:49 - but this is the first time

48:52 - that an American president has had a

48:56 - as sought advice,

48:58 - from from the African-American community.

49:01 - So, when we when we think about,

49:06 - what has happened

49:08 - before, FDR and we think about what is happening now,

49:12 - it seems to be it seems to be an improvement.

49:17 - And,

49:20 - you know, there are still these slights again,

49:23 - coming from here the next, the next,

49:26 - work on African-American Olympians.

49:32 - They're concerned that they brought home

49:34 - the glory from Berlin but were not invited to the white House.

49:39 - And, they saw that as a real slap in the face.

49:42 - Harry Truman would correct that in,

49:45 - after the London Games in 1948, but,

49:50 - but again, at that time, well,

49:53 - you've, you've, you've got the, civil rights movement

49:57 - really emerging,

50:00 - out of World war, out of World War Two scholars.

50:03 - And this is something the debate talk about this idea of the,

50:07 - the long civil rights movement. When does it begin?

50:09 - Does it begin in brown?

50:11 - Does it begin with Martin Luther King?

50:14 - Does it begin with the citizens, or can we trace it back?

50:17 - Father, can we can we go?

50:20 - Can we go back into the 20th century?

50:22 - Can we go back into the 19th century where African-Americans

50:25 - are protesting in Philadelphia about the right

50:29 - to sit anywhere they want on streetcars that are pulled by horses?

50:33 - So, you know, it's it's something

50:36 - that, certainly historians and other scholars

50:40 - continually debate about,

50:42 - about this, you know, this notion of this notion of civil rights.

50:46 - Yeah. spum. Civil rights struggle.

50:49 - So before we want to run out of time, just tell us what

50:53 - what the climate was like, for African Americans in Philadelphia

50:57 - after the war, those veterans and also those who who were here the whole time

51:01 - trying to get some of those, jobs that the war created,

51:06 - you know, you know, it's it's a mixed picture.

51:09 - Okay.

51:10 - You know, on the on the one hand, you know, a lot of the jobs,

51:15 - begin to evaporate, okay?

51:19 - Because there's no need for,

51:22 - the defense industry, being that large

51:25 - in the aftermath of the war,

51:30 - and certainly,

51:33 - if you

51:34 - look at, the African-American press, there's,

51:38 - a lot of interest in the postwar period, it's going to be different.

51:44 - It's going to be a new world coming.

51:46 - Okay.

51:46 - So, there's a lot of,

51:50 - there's a lot of hope coming out of coming out of the war.

51:53 - And again, the idea that Africa was going to become independent,

51:58 - that you see this in the black, black press,

52:03 - and there's this linking what, what people call intersectionality.

52:07 - But, let me just say that,

52:12 - a lot of these hopes are dashed,

52:15 - in terms of,

52:17 - access to the VA,

52:21 - that is, specifically the GI Bill,

52:24 - but more importantly, segregation in housing,

52:29 - because after the war, suburbanization

52:32 - across the nation increases, including in the Philadelphia area. And,

52:38 - the it's

52:40 - it's extremely hard for African-Americans

52:43 - to find housing in these new suburbs because there are restrictive covenants,

52:48 - that legally limit,

52:51 - who you who you can sell your house to.

52:55 - In addition, you also have racial violence

52:58 - on the part of, whites who do not want black neighbors.

53:02 - Okay.

53:03 - And so a lot of these wartime hopes are going to be,

53:09 - dashed by, postwar realities.

53:12 - And you have industrialization beginning to decline in Philadelphia.

53:16 - Slowly in the 1940s.

53:18 - So this is, this is going

53:22 - to create, a complicated landscape.

53:26 - In the 1950s and

53:29 - urban renewal.

53:30 - But again, that's found in the next chapter

53:35 - by someone you well, you making a reference to redlining

53:39 - there was that, a big problem around this time and what was it?

53:44 - Yes. Redlining actually begins again.

53:47 - This begins during the, during the depression, areas

53:51 - that, that are considered risky.

53:54 - Okay.

53:57 - To, to give loans to,

53:59 - so large areas of Philadelphia, have red lines around it

54:02 - because there are African Americans living there.

54:05 - So, the federal government advises banks do not loan in this

54:11 - in this in this area, and with restrictive covenants.

54:15 - Basically,

54:19 - if you're living somewhere,

54:21 - you can say to the realtor,

54:25 - do not sell to anyone Jewish, Latino,

54:29 - black, you name the particular racial or ethnic group.

54:33 - And this will be outlawed in the 1940s, late 1940s.

54:39 - But, you know, there's still,

54:43 - there's still a problem in enforcement and there's still the problem of,

54:46 - of, of white resistance to integrated neighborhoods.

54:53 - So that's that's something that, as I said, is covered later in the book.

54:57 - And I trail off at the end of the war.

55:03 - All right.

55:03 - Well, we've reached the end of your part of the book, Stanley.

55:06 - Keith Arnold, thank you so much for joining us.

55:09 - Thank you very much. I really enjoyed this.

55:11 - And I you know, I encourage, encourage your viewers to read the book.

55:17 - And,

55:20 - I hope I answered all of your questions. so.