00:17 - >> AS THIS INTERVIEW IS

00:19 - PROGRESSING ON MY ACTIVITIES, MY

00:24 - CAREER, SO TO SPEAK, I'M DOING

00:28 - MORE TIME TALKING ABOUT

00:29 - PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S

00:31 - ASSASSINATION THAN I EVER HAVE

00:32 - ON CAMERA OR IN ANY RECORDED

00:37 - WAY.

00:38 - AND OF THE MANY THINGS THAT I

00:41 - HAVE DONE, LIKE THE TEAMSTERS

00:46 - PROSECUTION, WHICH WAS A BIG

00:48 - EVENT COMING OUT OF THE

00:49 - McCLELLAN COMMITTEE AND THE

00:51 - ACTIVITIES OF ATTORNEY GENERAL

00:53 - KENNEDY -- AND THEN I

00:56 - INVESTIGATED THE MAGISTERIAL

00:57 - SYSTEM IN PHILADELPHIA FOR

01:00 - THEN-GOVERNOR SCRANTON, WHICH

01:02 - WAS A TERRIBLE JUDICIAL SYSTEM

01:04 - FILLED WITH CORRUPTION AND EVIL

01:06 - PRACTICES -- GOT CONSTITUTIONAL

01:08 - REFORM.

01:09 - AND PARENTHETICALLY, I THINK

01:12 - THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT WORK

01:13 - I'VE DONE.

01:15 - AND THEN PROFESSIONALIZING THE

01:18 - DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE,

01:19 - FULL-TIME ASSISTANCE, CHANGING

01:23 - THE SENTENCING PATTERNS, MAJOR

01:27 - REFORMS IN THE WAY OF PRETRIAL

01:30 - DIVERSION, TAKING LESSER CASES

01:32 - OUT TO FREE UP THE BACKLOG AND

01:35 - GETTING PEOPLE OUT OF JAILS FOR

01:38 - MINOR INFRACTIONS, AND THEN 30

01:41 - YEARS IN THE SENATE AND 15

01:43 - CONFIRMATION PROCEEDINGS, SOME

01:45 - OF THEM VERY NOTEWORTHY -- JUDGE

01:47 - BORK, CHIEF JUSTICE REHNQUIST,

01:50 - THE PROFESSOR HILL/JUSTICE

01:54 - THOMAS HEARINGS --

01:58 - AND PRESIDING

02:00 - OVER CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS AND

02:03 - ALITO AS CHAIRMAN OF THE

02:04 - JUDICIARY COMMITTEE.

02:06 - CHAIRED THE INTELLIGENCE

02:07 - COMMITTEE AND THE VETERANS

02:08 - COMMITTEE.

02:09 - ONE THING THE PEOPLE WILL BE

02:11 - LOOKING AT FOR A LONG TIME IS

02:14 - THE ACTIVITIES OF THE WARREN

02:18 - COMMISSION, AND AS FATE HAD IT,

02:20 - WITH A SINGLE BULLET BEING

02:23 - CENTRAL TO THE RUBY QUESTIONING

02:27 - AND DOING THIS CHAPTER ON THE

02:31 - LIE-DETECTOR TEST AND OSWALD'S

02:33 - CAPABILITIES AS A MARKSMAN -- A

02:37 - FAIRLY DIVERSE AND ACTIVE

02:40 - CAREER -- THAT THIS WILL TAKE

02:43 - SUCH PROMINENCE AND OVERSHADOW

02:46 - SO MANY OTHER THINGS.

02:49 - SO, THAT'S PROBABLY MORE THAN

02:50 - ANYBODY WANTED TO HEAR WHO'S

02:51 - LOOKING AT THIS, BUT JUST A

02:53 - PERSONAL ASIDE.

02:55 - >> NOW, WHEN WE HAD LEFT OFF, WE

02:56 - WERE TALKING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT

02:58 - JACK RUBY'S LIE-DETECTOR TEST.

03:01 - >> WELL, ON THE WAY BACK FROM

03:04 - DALLAS TO WASHINGTON, IN THE

03:06 - STAR JET -- THAT WAS A VERY LATE

03:10 - EVENING.

03:10 - WE DIDN'T GET BACK TO WASHINGTON

03:12 - UNTIL CLOSE TO MIDNIGHT -- AND

03:15 - JUST WARREN AND ME.

03:16 - BALL HAD GONE OFF TO CALIFORNIA.

03:21 - AND THERE WAS CREW IN THE PLANE,

03:26 - OF COURSE.

03:26 - BUT EARL WARREN WAS LAMENTING

03:30 - HIS PROMISE TO RUBY TO GIVE HIM

03:33 - A LIE-DETECTOR TEST.

03:35 - AND HE SAID,

03:37 - "YOU'VE GOT TO GET

03:38 - US OUT OF THIS.

03:39 - I DON'T WANT THIS LIE-DETECTOR

03:41 - TEST.

03:41 - I DON'T BELIEVE IN THAT."

03:45 - AND I SAID, "WELL, MR. CHIEF

03:46 - JUSTICE, YOU PROMISED IT TO HIM

03:48 - ON THE RECORD,

03:50 - AND IF YOU DON'T

03:52 - GIVE IT TO HIM, PEOPLE WILL SAY

03:54 - THERE'S AN ELEMENT OF COVER-UP."

03:57 - EARLIER, WARREN HAD MADE A

03:59 - STATEMENT, WHICH WE'LL COME TO

04:02 - LATER IN SOME DETAIL, ABOUT

04:03 - "THERE'S SOME THINGS WE WON'T

04:04 - KNOW DURING OUR LIFETIMES."

04:08 - AND THAT'S PART OF EARL WARREN'S

04:10 - INABILITY TO RESPOND AT THE

04:13 - MOMENT.

04:15 - SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPENED.

04:16 - HE -- HIS COMPOSURE WAS NOT

04:19 - GOOD.

04:20 - HIS RESPONSES WERE NOT SOUND

04:23 - JUDGMENT.

04:25 - SO, HE WANTED TO GET OUT OF THE

04:26 - LIE DETECTOR.

04:27 - I SAID, "WELL, THE ONLY WAY TO

04:28 - DO IT IS TO HAVE RUBY WITHDRAW

04:31 - HIS REQUEST.

04:32 - RUBY CAN WITHDRAW HIS REQUEST."

04:35 - AND MEANWHILE, RUBY'S BROTHER,

04:43 - EARL RUBY, HAD HIRED A LAWYER

04:47 - NAMED SAUL DANN IN DETROIT, WHO

04:49 - DIDN'T WANT THE LIE-DETECTOR

04:51 - TEST GIVEN.

04:52 - WELL, IT WASN'T UP TO EARL RUBY

04:55 - OR ANYBODY.

04:56 - IT WAS UP TO JACK RUBY.

04:59 - AND THERE WERE A LOT OF SUPREME

05:00 - COURT DECISIONS WHICH SAID, ON

05:02 - SOMETHING FUNDAMENTAL, IT HAS TO

05:04 - BE BY THE PERSON HIMSELF.

05:07 - IF YOU WANT TO ENTER A GUILTY

05:09 - PLEA, YOU HAVE TO ANSWER

05:11 - QUESTIONS THAT YOU KNOW WHAT

05:12 - YOU'RE DOING.

05:12 - IT HAS TO BE THE INDIVIDUAL.

05:15 - AND I SAID TO THE CHIEF JUSTICE,

05:17 - "I WILL SEE IF I CAN GET HIM TO

05:19 - WITHDRAW HIS REQUEST."

05:22 - AND SINCE I'VE BEEN THE STAFFER

05:25 - WITH THE CHIEF JUSTICE ON THE

05:29 - RUBY QUESTIONING AND SINCE I HAD

05:30 - THIS RAPPORT WITH HIM, MORE SO,

05:32 - SAY, THAN JOE BALL, I WAS

05:36 - DESIGNATED TO BE THE COMMISSION

05:39 - REPRESENTATIVE ON HIS

05:40 - LIE-DETECTOR TEST.

05:43 - AND WARREN WAS TALKING ABOUT,

05:47 - "WHO SHALL WE GET TO PERFORM THE

05:48 - TEST?"

05:48 - AND I SAID, "WELL, GET A PRIVATE

05:51 - AGENCY."

05:53 - "DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY --"

05:54 - HE HAD A MANIA FOR PEOPLE MAKING

05:58 - MONEY.

05:58 - "DO YOU KNOW ZAPRUDER GOT

05:59 - $150,000 FOR THE FILMS?"

06:02 - WARREN WAS A MAN OF VERY MODEST

06:04 - MEANS.

06:05 - THERE WAS A PICTURE IN THE

06:06 - NEWSPAPER AT ABOUT THAT TIME OF

06:08 - WARREN IN BLACK TIE PAYING OFF A

06:14 - LIMOUSINE DRIVER WHO HAD TAKEN

06:15 - HIM TO THIS AFFAIR -- MORE THAN

06:17 - A TAXI.

06:17 - IT WAS A LIMO 'CAUSE SOMEBODY

06:19 - OFFERED HIM A RIDE HOME.

06:21 - IF HE HAD A RIDE HOME, HE WAS

06:22 - GONNA SAVE A BUCK AND DISPATCH

06:26 - HIS LIMOUSINE.

06:29 - SO, IT WAS FINALLY DECIDED THAT

06:31 - A FELLA NAMED BILL HERNDON, WAS

06:34 - WAS THE CHIEF FBI POLYGRAPHER,

06:37 - OR LIE-DETECTOR EXPERT, WOULD

06:39 - PERFORM THE LIE-DETECTOR TEST.

06:43 - SO, IT WAS ARRANGED THAT HE AND

06:45 - I WOULD FLY FROM BALTIMORE.

06:49 - AMERICAN AIRLINES HAD A NONSTOP

06:51 - FLIGHT TO DALLAS, AND IT WAS

06:53 - TIME TO TALK ABOUT IT.

06:56 - AND WE STARTED ABOUT NOON,

07:00 - DALLAS TIME, FLEW DOWN THAT

07:03 - MORNING.

07:04 - AND MY INSTRUCTIONS WERE TO OPEN

07:07 - BY SAYING, "MR. RUBY, THIS IS A

07:10 - COMMISSION PROCEEDING.

07:12 - WE KNOW WHAT'S ON THE RECORD.

07:14 - NOW, YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO

07:16 - WITHDRAW YOUR REQUEST."

07:20 - AND BEFORE I COULD SAY ANYTHING,

07:23 - RUBY WALKED INTO THE ROOM AND

07:25 - TOOK CHARGE AGAIN AND SAID,

07:26 - "HERE ARE THE QUESTIONS I WANTED

07:27 - ASKED."

07:28 - WELL, TO HAVE A LIE-DETECTOR

07:31 - TEST, THERE ARE A FEW

07:32 - PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS TO GET

07:34 - BLOOD PRESSURE AND PHYSIOLOGICAL

07:36 - RESPONSES AND THEN TO -- IT

07:41 - LASTS ABOUT 45 MINUTES.

07:43 - WELL, THAT LIE-DETECTOR ENDED AT

07:46 - MIDNIGHT.

07:47 - IT WENT FOR 12 HOURS.

07:50 - AND WE STARTED WITH RUBY'S

07:51 - QUESTIONS.

07:52 - AND EVERYBODY HAD QUESTIONS.

07:54 - AND IT TURNED INTO SORT OF A

07:56 - DONNYBROOK.

07:57 - THE ESSENTIAL ANSWERS HE GAVE

07:59 - WERE THAT HE WAS NOT INVOLVED

08:01 - WITH RUBY, THAT HE WAS NOT PART

08:03 - OF A CONSPIRACY, THAT HE WAS

08:07 - EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED READING THE

08:09 - SUNDAY PAPERS ABOUT THE CHILDREN

08:13 - WHO'VE LOST THEIR FATHER.

08:15 - HE DIDN'T WANT JACQUELINE

08:16 - KENNEDY TO HAVE TO COME BACK TO

08:18 - DALLAS FOR A TRIAL, AND OSWALD

08:24 - WAS A NO-GOOD RAT.

08:25 - AND OF COURSE THAT'S WHAT RUBY

08:28 - SAID WHEN HE SHOT HIM -- PUT THE

08:29 - GUN IN HIS STOMACH, PULLED THE

08:31 - TRIGGER, AND SAID, "YOU RAT."

08:33 - AND RUBY HAD ACCESS TO THE

08:37 - POLICE STATION BECAUSE HE RAN A

08:38 - STRIP JOINT AND HE -- I DON'T

08:42 - KNOW WHETHER HE PAID OFF THE

08:43 - TROOPERS OR WHAT -- THE POLICE

08:44 - OR WHAT -- BUT HE BROUGHT THEM

08:47 - COFFEE AND SANDWICHES AT A

08:49 - MINIMUM.

08:50 - AND HE HAD FREE REIN SO THAT

08:52 - WHEN JACK RUBY POPS UP IN THE

08:55 - SHERIFF'S CELL AND GETS NEAR

09:00 - RUBY, JACK'S ALWAYS THERE.

09:05 - THAT'S WHAT HE DOES.

09:07 - AND J. EDGAR HOOVER PERSONALLY

09:11 - MADE THE DECISION, REPORTEDLY,

09:14 - THAT THE LIE-DETECTOR WOULD NOT

09:17 - BE RELIED UPON.

09:20 - BILL HERNDON TOLD ME ON THE WAY

09:22 - BACK TO THE PLANE THAT HE

09:24 - THOUGHT THE LIE-DETECTOR WAS

09:26 - VALID, THAT RUBY'S ANSWERS WERE

09:32 - VALID RESPONSES, AND THAT HE WAS

09:37 - NOT INVOLVED WITH THE

09:38 - ASSASSINATION OR WITH LEE HARVEY

09:42 - OSWALD OR INVOLVED IN ANY WAY.

09:46 - AND THERE HAD BEEN THE QUESTION

09:47 - AS TO WHETHER RUBY WAS PSYCHOTIC

09:50 - FROM WHAT HE HAD SAID TO ME AND

09:53 - WARREN, CHIEF JUSTICE WARREN --

09:57 - CUTTING OFF THE ARMS AND LEGS OF

09:58 - JEWISH CHILDREN IN ALBUQUERQUE

10:00 - AND EL PASO.

10:03 - HERNDON'S VIEW WAS THAT, DURING

10:06 - THE TIME HE ANSWERS THOSE

10:07 - QUESTION, HE WAS COMPOS MENTIS

10:09 - AND THEY WERE VALID.

10:11 - AND J. EDGAR HOOVER MADE THE

10:12 - DECISION THAT THE LIE-DETECTOR

10:15 - TEST WOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON.

10:17 - AND IT WAS UP TO ME TO WRITE THE

10:19 - CHAPTER ON THAT, AND IT WAS

10:20 - INCLUDED IN THE REPORT.

10:22 - IT'S IN THE BODY OF THE REPORT.

10:24 - AND WE INCLUDED ALL OF THE

10:27 - GRAPHS OF -- THERE ARE THREE

10:30 - DIFFERENT GRAPHS -- BLOOD

10:32 - PRESSURE, RESPIRATION, OR

10:34 - WHATEVER THEY ARE ON THE

10:35 - TECHNICALITIES -- SO THAT PEOPLE

10:38 - CAN REVIEW THEM AND COME TO

10:41 - THEIR OWN CONCLUSION.

10:44 - >> THERE WAS A TIME WHEN RUBY'S

10:45 - TESTIMONY WAS LEAKED TO THE

10:46 - NEWSPAPERS.

10:47 - DID THAT HURT THE COMMISSION'S

10:48 - WORK AT ALL?

10:50 - >> DID IT HURT THE...?

10:51 - >> THE WORK OF THE COMMISSION.

10:52 - >> WORK OF THE COMMISSION?

10:54 - WELL, IT WAS AN ANNOYANCE.

10:57 - THE TRANSCRIPT APPEARED IN THE

10:59 - NEWSPAPERS.

11:00 - A WOMAN REPORTER GOT THEM.

11:03 - THERE WAS AN INVESTIGATION

11:04 - CONDUCTED.

11:05 - I WAS QUESTIONED BY THE FBI --

11:09 - VERY UNCOMFORTABLE, HAVING BEEN

11:11 - THERE.

11:14 - AND I KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THE

11:15 - LEAK.

11:17 - AND IT WAS A BLURB CARRIED

11:19 - VERBATIM IN A LOT OF NEWSPAPERS.

11:22 - I STILL HAVE IT IN A SCRAPBOOK.

11:25 - BUT WE WENT ABOUT OUR BUSINESS.

11:28 - JUST A BLIP ON THE SCREEN.

11:30 - >> HOW WAS THE FBI AND THE

11:32 - C.I.A. TO WORK WITH?

11:33 - HOW COOPERATIVE WERE THEY?

11:35 - >> THEY WERE VERY COOPERATIVE,

11:36 - VERY COOPERATIVE.

11:39 - THERE WAS A QUESTION AS TO

11:41 - WHETHER THEY HAD A CONFLICT OF

11:42 - INTEREST.

11:44 - RUBY HAD BEEN INTERVIEWED BY AN

11:46 - FBI AGENT.

11:47 - I BELIEVE HIS NAME WAS HOSTY.

11:49 - AND THERE WAS A QUESTION AS TO

11:51 - WHETHER THEY COULD DO AN

11:53 - INDEPENDENT JOB.

11:54 - BUT WE HAD NO INVESTIGATORS OF

11:57 - OUR OWN.

11:58 - I THINK IT WAS NOT A GOOD IDEA

12:00 - TO HAVE THE FBI RUN THE

12:01 - INVESTIGATION BECAUSE THEY WERE

12:04 - TOO MUCH INVOLVED IN IT.

12:07 - BUT THAT DECISION WAS MADE, AND

12:09 - WE ALL DID THE BEST WE COULD.

12:11 - BUT THE PEOPLE THAT WE WORKED

12:13 - WITH WERE VERY ABLE PEOPLE.

12:16 - AND THE SECRET SERVICE

12:17 - COOPERATED.

12:19 - ELMER MOORE, AS I SAID, WAS

12:20 - ASSIGNED TO THE CHIEF JUSTICE,

12:22 - AND ROY KELLERMAN WAS IN THE

12:25 - FRONT SEAT, AND THE DRIVER,

12:30 - WHOSE NAME ESCAPES ME AT THE

12:31 - MOMENT -- A VERY NICE YOUNG

12:33 - FELLOW.

12:36 - >> NOW, ANOTHER PERSON YOU

12:37 - WANTED TO GET TESTIMONY FROM WAS

12:39 - FORMER FIRST LADY JACQUELINE

12:40 - KENNEDY.

12:41 - HER TESTIMONY ENDED UP ONLY

12:42 - BEING BRIEF, BEFORE A FEW SELECT

12:45 - PEOPLE.

12:45 - WHY WAS THAT?

12:49 - >> MRS. KENNEDY DID NOT TESTIFY

12:51 - BEFORE THE COMMISSION BECAUSE

12:53 - THE CHIEF JUSTICE WANTED TO SAVE

12:56 - HER THE EXPERIENCE.

12:58 - AND IT WAS A BAD DECISION.

13:01 - SHE WAS THE CLOSEST WITNESS TO

13:04 - THE INCIDENT.

13:05 - SHE WENT BACK ON TO THE TRUNK OF

13:08 - THE CAR, SHOWN BY THE FAMOUS

13:10 - ZAPRUDER FILM.

13:13 - SHE WAS SAID TO HAVE REMEMBERED

13:15 - NOTHING ABOUT THAT.

13:17 - SHE WAS PUSHED BACK INTO THE

13:19 - SEAT BY CLINT HILL, WHO --

13:21 - SECRET SERVICE AGENT WHO,

13:22 - NOTWITHSTANDING, CAROUSING THE

13:24 - NIGHT BEFORE TILL ALL HOURS OF

13:26 - THE MORNING, LEFT THE RUNNING

13:28 - BOARD OF THE FOLLOW-UP CAR,

13:29 - RACED AHEAD, JUMPED ON THE CAR,

13:31 - PUSHED HER INTO THE BACKSEAT.

13:34 - BUT SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN

13:35 - QUESTIONED.

13:37 - AND THERE'S A REPORT THAT

13:42 - JOHN McCLOY RAISED THE ISSUE IN

13:46 - A COMMISSION MEETING, AND WARREN

13:51 - ANNOUNCED THAT SHE WOULD NOT BE

13:53 - QUESTIONED BY THE COMMISSION.

13:55 - AND THE WORD WAS THAT McCLOY

13:58 - OBJECTED.

14:00 - AND HE CALLED HIM "MR.

14:01 - CHAIRMAN," WHICH WAS INTERPRETED

14:06 - TO BE DERISIVE, INSULTING.

14:08 - NOBODY CALLED THE CHIEF JUSTICE

14:10 - "MR. CHAIRMAN."

14:12 - HE WAS "MR. CHIEF JUSTICE."

14:14 - THE WORD WAS THAT WARREN'S WIFE

14:15 - CALLED HIM C.J.

14:17 - >> WHOSE TESTIMONY DO YOU THINK

14:18 - WAS THE MOST USEFUL IN

14:19 - DEVELOPING THE SINGLE-BULLET

14:20 - THEORY?

14:21 - >> COMMANDER HUMES'.

14:22 - >> CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT A

14:25 - LITTLE BIT?

14:26 - >> WELL, COMMANDER HUMES

14:30 - TESTIFIED ABOUT THE PATH OF THE

14:34 - BULLET.

14:37 - AND WHEN I QUESTIONED HIM AT

14:40 - BETHESDA ON THE FRIDAY BEFORE

14:42 - HIS TESTIMONY, HE TOLD ABOUT HOW

14:47 - HE LOOKED AT THE BULLET HOLE IN

14:49 - THE BACK OF THE PRESIDENT'S

14:50 - NECK AND HE PUT HIS FINGER IN

14:55 - AND THAT THE BULLET HIT NOTHING

15:03 - SOLID, PASSED BETWEEN TWO LARGE

15:05 - STRAP MUSCLES, AND DIDN'T KNOW

15:12 - WHAT HAPPENED.

15:13 - THERE WAS SPECULATION THAT THE

15:17 - BULLET FOUND ON THE STRETCHER

15:19 - WAS THOUGHT TO HAVE BEEN THE ONE

15:22 - THAT WENT THROUGH THE --

15:25 - SPECULATION THAT IT MAY HAVE

15:26 - LODGED IN THE PRESIDENT'S NECK

15:28 - AND THEN, ON THE EXTERNAL HEART

15:30 - MASSAGE WHICH HE HAD, BEEN

15:32 - PUSHED OUT ONTO THE STRETCHER.

15:35 - IT WAS LATER DETERMINED, AS BEST

15:37 - WE COULD TELL, THAT IT WAS ON

15:39 - CONNALLY'S STRETCHER -- SOME

15:40 - VERY CONFUSING TESTIMONY GIVEN

15:43 - BY A FELLOW NAMED JIMISON, AS I

15:46 - RECALL.

15:50 - AND DR. HUMES SPECULATED THAT

15:57 - THE HOLE IN THE PRESIDENT'S

16:02 - THROAT, WHICH WAS THE SITE OF

16:04 - THE TRACHEOTOMY, MIGHT HAVE COME

16:07 - IN FROM THE FRONT AND STRUCK A

16:10 - VERTEBRAE AND GLANCED UP AND

16:13 - CAUSED THE TREMENDOUS DAMAGE TO

16:15 - THE TOP OF THE PRESIDENT'S HEAD,

16:18 - WHICH HAD PRACTICALLY BLOWN OFF.

16:19 - IT WAS 13 CENTIMETERS ACROSS,

16:23 - ABOUT 5 1/2".

16:27 - BUT WHEN HUMES THEN TOLD ME --

16:31 - AND TESTIFIED -- TOLD ME ON THAT

16:35 - INTERVIEW FRIDAY AFTERNOON AND

16:38 - LATER TESTIFIED THAT THE NEXT

16:40 - DAY HE CALLED UP MALCOLM PERRY,

16:43 - WHO WAS THE SURGEON WHO DID THE

16:45 - TRACHEOTOMY, AND THAT IT WAS A

16:51 - WOUND OF EXIT.

16:52 - IT WAS NOT A WOUND OF ENTRY

16:54 - BECAUSE IT WAS JAGGED.

16:56 - A WOUND OF ENTRY MAKES IS

16:59 - REGULAR AND ROUND.

17:01 - A WOUND OF EXIT IS DIFFERENT.

17:04 - AND OF COURSE THE WOUND WAS

17:06 - DESTROYED DURING THE COURSE OF

17:08 - THE TRACHEOTOMY, SO NOTHING MORE

17:10 - COULD BE DONE.

17:12 - BUT WHEN I LISTENED TO DR.

17:14 - HUMES AND PUT TWO AND TWO

17:19 - TOGETHER THAT THE BULLET ENTERED

17:22 - THE BASE OF THE NECK, PASSED

17:24 - BETWEEN TWO LARGE STRAP MUSCLES,

17:26 - THEY CALL THEM, WENT THROUGH THE

17:28 - PLEURAL CAVITY -- WE HAD THE

17:30 - THICK ON THE TIE.

17:31 - THE TIE WAS PRESERVED.

17:34 - IT WAS CUT OFF BY THE DOCTORS

17:36 - PERFORMING THE TRACHEOTOMY,

17:38 - WHICH WAS THE FASTEST WAY TO GET

17:40 - IT OFF, SO THE TIE HAPPENED TO

17:42 - BE PRESERVED.

17:44 - AND THEN LOOKING AT THE WOUNDS

17:48 - ON THE GOVERNOR'S CHEST THAT ARE

17:52 - SLIGHTLY TO THE LEFT OF HIS

17:53 - RIGHT ARMPIT, GRAZING A RIB, AND

17:56 - TUMBLING THROUGH HIS WRIST AND

17:58 - LODGING IN HIS THIGH --

18:00 - ADMITTEDLY, A STRANGE PATH FOR A

18:02 - BULLET TO TAKE, BUT SOMETIMES

18:04 - TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION.

18:09 - DR. HUMES TESTIFIED THAT HE DID

18:11 - NOT THINK THAT BULLET COULD HAVE

18:15 - GONE THROUGH CONNALLY'S WRIST.

18:19 - SO HE -- AT THAT STAGE, HE

18:22 - DISPUTED THE SINGLE-BULLET

18:24 - THEORY, AS I'VE JUST OUTLINED

18:26 - IT.

18:27 - BUT WHEN WE HAD DR. GREGORY, THE

18:30 - ORTHOPEDIC SURGEON, TESTIFY AND

18:32 - BROUGHT THE X-RAYS IN, HE

18:35 - TESTIFIED THAT THE METALLIC

18:37 - FRAGMENTS WERE FOUND IN VARIOUS

18:39 - LEVELS OF THE WRIST AND, AS HE

18:42 - DESCRIBED THEM -- AS I

18:43 - RECOLLECT -- THAT THEY WERE

18:45 - POSTAGE-STAMP WEIGHT.

18:47 - THE WHOLE BULLET, AS I RECOLLECT

18:49 - IT, WEIGHED 158 GRAMS, AND THEY

18:54 - CAME AS HIGH AS 161.

18:57 - AND THAT DIFFERENTIAL COULD HAVE

18:58 - ACCOUNTED FOR THE METALLIC

19:01 - FRAGMENTS IN THE GOVERNOR'S

19:04 - WRIST.

19:05 - >> HOW WAS THE THEORY RECEIVED

19:07 - BY THE MEMBERS OF THE

19:08 - COMMISSION?

19:14 - >> I KNOW THAT IT WAS IN THE

19:17 - REPORT, SO THE BOTTOM LINE WAS

19:21 - THEY ACCEPTED IT.

19:23 - I HAD A CHANCE TO GIVE CHIEF

19:29 - JUSTICE WARREN A NARRATIVE ON IT

19:33 - FROM THE SIXTH FLOOR OF THE

19:35 - TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY

19:37 - BUILDING, WHERE OSWALD'S

19:41 - ASSASSIN'S NEST WAS THOUGHT TO

19:44 - BE.

19:45 - I ESTIMATE THAT I TALKED TO HIM

19:47 - FOR ABOUT EIGHT MINUTES, LAYING

19:48 - OUT THE WHOLE LINE.

19:51 - AND WHEN I FINISHED, HE DIDN'T

19:53 - SAY, "BAH."

19:54 - HE DIDN'T ASK A QUESTION.

19:55 - HE DIDN'T SAY A WORD.

19:56 - HE TURNED ON HIS HEEL AND WALKED

19:59 - AWAY.

20:00 - A LITTLE DIFFICULT TO READ HIM.

20:03 - LATER, I HEARD RUMORS THAT THERE

20:04 - WAS A 4-3 VOTE.

20:07 - LATER, I HEARD RUMORS SENATOR

20:10 - RUSSELL DIDN'T AGREE WITH IT,

20:11 - WANTED TO WRITE A DISSENT.

20:13 - BUT ALL OF THAT'S IN THE RUMOR

20:15 - STAGE, SO THAT'S ABOUT AS MUCH

20:18 - AS I KNOW ABOUT WHAT THE

20:19 - COMMISSIONERS DID.

20:21 - >> WHAT DID YOU LEARN WHEN YOU

20:22 - VISITED PARKLAND HOSPITAL IN

20:24 - DALLAS, WHERE THE PRESIDENT WAS

20:26 - TAKEN, AS WELL AS GOVERNOR

20:27 - CONNALLY?

20:28 - >> I LEARNED A LOT.

20:31 - I TOOK DEPOSITIONS.

20:34 - I FEEL LIKE I TOOK ABOUT 18 OF

20:38 - THEM, BACK TO BACK TO BACK TO

20:39 - BACK.

20:40 - THEY WERE ALL SET UP FOR ME.

20:42 - I TALKED TO NURSES.

20:44 - I TALKED TO EVERYBODY WHO WAS

20:45 - THERE.

20:47 - ONE OF THE NURSES TESTIFIED --

20:49 - IT'S ALL ON THE RECORD, IT'S ALL

20:51 - THERE -- THAT WHEN THEY KNEW THE

20:59 - PRESIDENT WAS IN TOWN, THEY WERE

21:00 - SPECULATING, "WOULDN'T IT BE

21:02 - INTERESTING IF HE WAS IN AN AUTO

21:06 - ACCIDENT AND HAD TO COME TO THE

21:07 - EMERGENCY ROOM?"

21:09 - AND THEN WHEN THE PRESIDENT

21:11 - ARRIVED, FROM THE INTERCRANIAL

21:14 - PRESSURE, HE WAS POP-EYED, AS

21:16 - THEY DESCRIBED IT, WHATEVER THAT

21:18 - MEANS.

21:19 - AND THEY SAW HIM, AND THEY

21:20 - DIDN'T THINK IT WAS THE

21:21 - PRESIDENT.

21:21 - IT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE THE

21:22 - PRESIDENT.

21:23 - THEY THOUGHT, "WELL, MAYBE THIS

21:24 - IS THE STAND-IN FOR THE

21:26 - PRESIDENT.

21:27 - THEY MUST HAVE A DOUBLE FOR

21:29 - PROTECTION."

21:30 - I TALKED TO THE WITNESS JIMISON,

21:33 - WHO TESTIFIED ABOUT THE

21:35 - STRETCHER.

21:36 - AND HE WAS A VERY, VERY

21:38 - DIFFICULT WITNESS BECAUSE I

21:39 - DIDN'T WANT TO PUT WORDS -- I

21:40 - WOULDN'T PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH.

21:43 - AND HE WAS VERY CONFUSED ABOUT

21:45 - WHOSE STRETCHER IT WAS.

21:46 - AND IT'S ALL THERE ON THE

21:47 - RECORD, EXACTLY HOW IT HAPPENED,

21:50 - ALL VERBATIM,

21:53 - FOR PEOPLE TO READ

21:54 - AND COME TO THEIR OWN

21:56 - CONCLUSIONS.

21:58 - >> GOVERNOR CONNALLY'S CLOTHES

21:59 - WERE LAUNDERED AFTER HE WAS

22:00 - SHOT, THUS AFFECTING THE

22:02 - INVESTIGATION.

22:03 - WHY WAS THAT?

22:04 - >> YOU'LL HAVE TO TALK TO HIS

22:05 - LAUNDRESS ABOUT THAT.

22:09 - I THINK PEOPLE DID NOT REALIZE

22:10 - THE IMPORTANCE OF IT.

22:15 - WE SHOULD HAVE TALKED TO

22:16 - CONNALLY A LOT SOONER.

22:17 - I REMEMBER THE DAY.

22:18 - IT WAS APRIL 22nd WHEN HIS

22:20 - DEPOSITION WAS TAKEN AT THE

22:22 - COMMISSION.

22:24 - AND HIS CLOTHES HAD BEEN CLEANED

22:27 - AND PRESSED, AND THEY WERE

22:30 - IMPORTANT BECAUSE OF WHICH WAY

22:32 - THE FIBERS WENT.

22:33 - WE HAD KENNEDY'S JACKET.

22:35 - FIBERS WENT IN.

22:37 - SHIRT WENT IN.

22:41 - BUT AS TO CONNALLY, THE CLEANED

22:43 - AND PRESSED HIS SUIT.

22:45 - >> YOU'D ACTUALLY GONE BACK AND

22:47 - FOUND THE MAKER OF KENNEDY'S

22:48 - SHIRT.

22:49 - IS THAT CORRECT?

22:50 - >> I WENT BACK AND LOOKED AT

22:51 - THEM?

22:52 - >> WHEN -- ON A VERY SEPARATE

22:55 - TRIP.

22:55 - YOU WERE IN NEW YORK, I BELIEVE,

22:56 - WITH YOUR WIFE, AND YOU FOUND

22:58 - THE MAKER OF THE SAME MATERIAL,

23:00 - THE SAME SHIRT THAT KENNEDY HAD

23:02 - WORN.

23:02 - >> WELL, THAT'S -- THAT'S --

23:04 - HE HAD A LABEL IN HIS SHIRT --

23:07 - LIKE SHIRTS HAVE LABELS -- THAT

23:09 - SAID THE ADDRESS ON -- I THINK

23:12 - IT WAS MADISON AVENUE.

23:14 - I THINK IT WAS DILLON'S

23:15 - SHIRTMAKER.

23:16 - IT'S IN THE BOOK.

23:17 - AND JOAN AND I WERE WALKING DOWN

23:19 - TO -- AND NEW YORK WAS -- IT

23:23 - WAS, AS I RECOLLECT IT,

23:24 - NOVEMBER 9, 1964, THE DAY MY

23:27 - PARENTS SAILED FOR ISRAEL.

23:31 - AND I SAID, "WELL, THIS IS THE

23:34 - PLACE WHERE KENNEDY BOUGHT HIS

23:35 - SHIRT."

23:36 - I WENT IN, AND THEY WERE

23:39 - TAILOR-MADE SHIRTS.

23:41 - AND I FOUND THE BOLT OF CLOTH

23:43 - WHICH WAS KENNEDY'S SHIRT.

23:46 - AND IT WAS $24.95, AS I

23:50 - RECOLLECT IT.

23:51 - I WAS TEMPTED TO HAVE HIS SHIRT

23:52 - MADE, BUT IT WAS A LITTLE BEYOND

23:54 - MY REACH.

23:57 - AND I SAID TO THE SALESMAN,

24:01 - "SENATOR KENNEDY -- PRESIDENT

24:03 - KENNEDY BOUGHT HIS SHIRTS HERE,

24:05 - DIDN'T HE?"

24:07 - AND HE ROSE IN A DIGNIFIED --

24:09 - SAID, "WE NEVER DISCLOSE OUR

24:11 - CLIENTELE.

24:11 - HOW DID YOU FIND OUT?"

24:13 - AND I GAVE HIM A SNAPPY ANSWER.

24:15 - I SAID, "I NEVER DISCLOSE MY

24:16 - SOURCES."

24:19 - >> IS THERE ANYTHING YOU WOULD

24:20 - HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY, LOOKING

24:21 - BACK NOW RETROSPECTIVELY, IN

24:23 - YOUR INVESTIGATION?

24:26 - >> WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE

24:28 - HAD THE X-RAYS AND THE PHOTOS.

24:31 - AND I MADE A BIG FUSS ABOUT

24:33 - THAT.

24:34 - I WROTE A MEMORANDUM -- AS I

24:37 - RECOLLECT, DATED APRIL 30th --

24:40 - RAISING HELL WITH THE

24:41 - COMMISSION.

24:42 - AND THEY WOULD NOT LET US SEE

24:44 - THEM.

24:44 - THEY WERE AFRAID THEY WOULD GET

24:45 - INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

24:47 - I THINK THE KENNEDY FAMILY MADE

24:50 - THE DECISION ON THAT.

24:51 - ROBERT KENNEDY PROBABLY MADE THE

24:54 - DECISIONS, AND THE CHIEF JUSTICE

24:55 - PROTECTED HIM.

24:57 - AND THE FACT THAT IT WAS A KEY

24:59 - BIT OF EVIDENCE THAT WE HAD --

25:01 - THE TESTIMONY FROM THE AUTOPSY

25:03 - SURGEONS HAD NOT DIMINISHED THE

25:04 - IMPORTANCE OF SEEING THE PHOTOS

25:07 - AND THE X-RAYS.

25:08 - AND I WAS VERY UNHAPPY ABOUT

25:10 - THAT.

25:11 - ONE REPORTER WROTE THAT I LEFT

25:13 - THE ROOM IN TEARS, WHICH IS NOT

25:15 - TRUE.

25:17 - THE HOUSE CONDUCTED AN

25:21 - INVESTIGATION ON THE

25:23 - ASSASSINATION INVESTIGATION.

25:25 - THE INVESTIGATED THE

25:26 - INVESTIGATORS.

25:28 - AND I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF A

25:29 - CAMPAIGN IN PENNSYLVANIA,

25:31 - 1978, THE SPRING.

25:32 - IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN '77.

25:37 - IT WAS IN THE CYCLE OF THE

25:40 - GOVERNOR'S PRIMARY THAT YEAR.

25:43 - AND I WAS ACTUALLY -- I THINK I

25:46 - WAS SUBPOENAED OR THREATENED

25:48 - WITH A SUBPOENA.

25:48 - I WENT TO WASHINGTON.

25:50 - AND THE GENERAL COUNSEL -- A GUY

25:53 - NAMED BLAKEY, WHO WAS NOT VERY

25:58 - PROFESSIONAL, PRODUCED THIS

26:01 - MEMO -- "AHA!" -- APRIL 30th.

26:04 - "YOU DIDN'T SEE THE PHOTOS OR

26:06 - THE X-RAYS.

26:06 - IS THIS TRUE?"

26:08 - I SAID, "YEP."

26:09 - I SAID, "THAT'S ME.

26:12 - THAT'S MY MEMO.

26:14 - I SAID IT THEN AND I MEANT IT

26:16 - AND I'D REPEAT IT.

26:19 - >> HOW WOULD YOU RATE THE

26:20 - MEDIA'S COVERAGE OF THE WARREN

26:21 - COMMISSION INVESTIGATION, AS

26:23 - WELL AS THE REPORT?

26:25 - >> WHAT DID I THINK OF THE MEDIA

26:26 - COVERAGE?

26:28 - WELL, THE MEDIA COVERAGE WAS

26:34 - PRETTY DRY.

26:35 - THEY HAD A REPORT, AND THEY

26:37 - REPORTED ON THE REPORT.

26:43 - I THOUGHT THE HEARINGS SHOULD

26:44 - HAVE BEEN PUBLIC.

26:47 - AND THE COMMISSION DECIDED NOT

26:48 - TO.

26:50 - I THINK HAD THE PUBLIC SEEN THE

26:52 - INVESTIGATION AND HOW IT

26:53 - UNFOLDED, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN

26:55 - A LOT MORE PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN

26:57 - IT.

26:59 - THE TESTIMONY OF MARINA OSWALD

27:01 - WAS PUBLIC BECAUSE SHE WAS

27:03 - REPRESENTED BY EARL LANE.

27:06 - AND SHE ASKED FOR A PUBLIC

27:08 - TESTIMONY.

27:09 - AND THE COMMISSION AGREED TO DO

27:12 - THAT.

27:14 - >> WAS IT DIFFICULT TO MAINTAIN

27:15 - AN OPEN MIND WITH MEDIA

27:17 - COVERAGE, AS THE FBI FINDINGS

27:19 - BEING PUBLICIZED?

27:22 - >> NO.

27:24 - I THINK THE INITIAL FBI AND

27:27 - SECRET SERVICE CONCLUSIONS WERE

27:30 - THAT THE FIRST BULLET HIT THE

27:33 - PRESIDENT THROUGH HIS NECK, THE

27:34 - SECOND HIT THE GOVERNOR, AND THE

27:36 - THIRD BULLET HIT THE PRESIDENT'S

27:38 - HEAD.

27:38 - AND IT WASN'T HARD TO KEEP AN

27:44 - OPEN MIND.

27:44 - I WAS LOOKING AT THE EVIDENCE.

27:47 - KEEPING AN OPEN MIND IS NEVER A

27:48 - PROBLEM.

27:49 - YOU LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE, AND

27:51 - YOU GO WHERE THE FACTS LEAD YOU.

27:58 - I HAD NO PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS.

28:03 - I HAD NO INTEREST IN DOING

28:08 - ANYTHING BUT FINDING THE TRUTH.

28:10 - EARL WARREN SAID TO US WHEN THE

28:12 - STAFF ASSEMBLED, "THE TRUTH IS

28:13 - OUR CLIENT."

28:17 - >> WAS THERE ANYTHING IN THE

28:18 - FINAL WARREN REPORT THAT YOU

28:19 - DISAGREED WITH?

28:22 - >> I DON'T THINK SO.

28:27 - I DON'T BELIEVE SO.

28:33 - >> IN THE EARLY '90s, THERE WAS

28:34 - AN OLIVER STONE MOVIE, "JFK,"

28:36 - THAT ATTEMPTED TO RECREATE YOUR

28:38 - INVESTIGATION.

28:39 - CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT

28:40 - YOUR IMPRESSIONS OF THAT MOVIE?

28:45 - >> I THINK IT WAS A GREAT PUBLIC

28:53 - DISSERVICE TO FICTIONALIZE THE

28:56 - ASSASSINATION AND MISLEAD SO

28:59 - MANY PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

29:02 - AND FOR OLIVER STONE TO DO IT IN

29:05 - A DELIBERATE MANNER -- HE

29:12 - SPLICED SCENES -- IT WAS A

29:15 - TECHNICOLOR MOVIE.

29:18 - THERE WERE SOME SCENES WHICH

29:22 - WERE IN BLACK AND WHITE.

29:24 - MY RECOLLECTION IS THE SCENE

29:27 - ABOUT THE STRETCHER WITH THE

29:29 - BULLET ON IT WAS IN BLACK AND

29:30 - WHITE, GIVING THE IMPRESSION

29:32 - THAT THESE WERE DOCUMENTARY

29:35 - SHOTS, WHEREAS THEY WERE NOT.

29:39 - AND I SAW AN ARTICLE RECENTLY

29:44 - THAT SAID 80% OF THE AMERICAN

29:46 - PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS A

29:47 - CONSPIRACY IN THE ASSASSINATION.

29:51 - AND OLIVER STONE DID A GREAT

29:54 - DEAL TO FOMENT THAT -- IN FACT,

29:57 - PROBABLY DID THE MOST TO DO

30:02 - THAT.

30:02 - AND PEOPLE HAVE A

30:04 - RESPONSIBILITY, WHEN YOU MAKE A

30:07 - MOVIE, WHEN YOU MAKE A

30:08 - STATEMENT, WHEN YOU MAKE A

30:09 - SPEECH, TO BE FACTUAL AND TO BE

30:15 - RESPONSIBLE.

30:16 - AND THAT MOVIE WAS HIGHLY

30:18 - IRRESPONSIBLE.

30:20 - >> WHY DO YOU THINK THERE'S SUCH

30:21 - A FASCINATION AND SUCH A

30:23 - CONTINUED INTEREST IN THE

30:26 - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT

30:27 - KENNEDY EVEN TODAY?

30:29 - >> WELL, THERE ARE A LOT OF

30:31 - REASONS WHY THERE'S A

30:33 - FASCINATION ON THE

30:34 - ASSASSINATION.

30:37 - ONE IS THAT HE WAS SUCH A

30:39 - GLAMOROUS PRESIDENT.

30:42 - AND HE'S BECOME MORE GLAMOROUS

30:44 - AFTER THE ASSASSINATION THAN HE

30:46 - WAS BEFORE, WITH AIRPORTS NAMED

30:49 - AFTER HIM.

30:50 - A STREET THREE BLOCKS AWAY IS

30:52 - NAMED AFTER HIM, A LOT OF

30:54 - BUILDINGS.

30:56 - HE WAS CAMELOT, AND THERE'S SO

30:58 - MUCH ASSOCIATED WITH THE KENNEDY

31:01 - NAME.

31:03 - ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE NEW

31:04 - YORK TIMES TODAY, MARIA SHRIVER

31:07 - -- STILL THE KENNEDY NAME --

31:10 - IS MAGICAL, CREATES A LOT OF

31:15 - INTEREST.

31:16 - SENATOR TED KENNEDY, WHO I

31:18 - WORKED WITH FOR 29 YEARS.

31:23 - ANOTHER REASON WAS THAT IT WAS

31:27 - HARD TO BELIEVE THAT ONE MAN

31:31 - LIKE OSWALD COULD BRING DOWN THE

31:33 - PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES,

31:35 - THE MOST POWERFUL MAN IN THE

31:37 - WORLD.

31:38 - AND HOW COULD ONE MAN DO IT

31:41 - ALONE?

31:42 - HOW COULD THAT HAVE HAPPENED?

31:45 - AND THE COMMISSION FOUND THAT

31:47 - THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF A

31:48 - CONSPIRACY, BUT YOU CAN'T PROVE

31:50 - A NEGATIVE.

31:51 - IF YOU WANT TO PROVE THAT ARLEN

31:53 - SPECTER WAS AT 15th AND LOCUST

31:56 - ON MAY 18, 2011, YOU HAVE TO

32:03 - HAVE A WITNESS OR TWO WHO SAW

32:04 - HIM THERE.

32:06 - IF YOU WANT TO PROVE ARLEN

32:06 - SPECTER WAS NOT AT THE CORNER ON

32:10 - MAY 18, 2011,

32:11 - YOU HAVE TO HAVE

32:12 - THE CORNER UNDER SURVEILLANCE

32:13 - FOR 24 HOURS.

32:16 - SO, PROVING A NEGATIVE IS A

32:18 - VIRTUAL IMPOSSIBILITY.

32:21 - BUT HAD THERE BEEN A CONSPIRACY,

32:22 - I THINK IT WOULD HAVE COME TO

32:23 - LIGHT LONG AGO.

32:25 - NOTHING IS KEPT SECRET IN OUR

32:28 - SOCIETY.

32:30 - AND THEN OTHER REASONS.

32:34 - PEOPLE ARE FASCINATED BY

32:35 - CONSPIRACIES.

32:38 - THERE ARE STORIES ALL THE TIMES

32:40 - WRITTEN ABOUT CONSPIRATORIAL

32:41 - THEORIES.

32:43 - KENNEDY'S ALWAYS INCLUDED, BUT

32:44 - THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER

32:46 - CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

32:48 - AND WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT

32:51 - THEY'RE STILL WRITING BOOKS

32:54 - ABOUT LINCOLN'S ASSASSINATION,

32:57 - WHICH OCCURRED IN 1865 -- SO YOU

32:59 - CAN DO THE MATH -- THEY'LL BE

33:03 - CURIOUS ABOUT KENNEDY'S

33:04 - ASSASSINATION -- WHO CAN TELL

33:07 - HOW MANY CENTURIES?

33:10 - WHO CAN TELL WHAT THE VALUE OF

33:12 - THIS FILM MAY BE?

33:14 - SUCH DETAILED COMMENTS FOR

33:16 - PEOPLE WHO'D LIKE TO SEE WHAT

33:19 - THE GUY SAID WHO WAS RIGHT THERE

33:21 - LOOKING AT THE BULLET, LOOKING

33:23 - AT THE ZAPRUDER FILM UNDER A

33:26 - MICROSCOPE AND TALKING TO ALL

33:27 - THE WITNESSES AND PUTTING IT ALL

33:29 - TOGETHER.

33:32 - AND IF SOMEBODY COULD PROVE THE

33:35 - SINGLE-BULLET THEORY WRONG, LET

33:38 - THEM DO IT.

33:40 - ALL OF THE SERIOUS STUDIES HAVE

33:41 - UPHELD IT.

33:43 - THE STUDY MADE BY ABC TV, THE

33:47 - 2-HOUR DOCUMENTARY ON THE 40th

33:49 - ANNIVERSARY, SAID IT WAS A

33:51 - SINGLE-BULLET FACT.

33:53 - I GRADUATED FROM SINGLE-BULLET

33:56 - THEORY TO SINGLE-BULLET

33:58 - CONCLUSION, AND I LIKE EVER

34:02 - BETTER SINGLE-BULLET FACT.

34:05 - >> WHEN WE HAD LAST SPOKEN, WE

34:06 - TALKED QUITE A BIT ABOUT YOUR

34:08 - SERVICE ON THE WARREN

34:09 - COMMISSION.

34:10 - TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT

34:11 - CHIEF JUSTICE WARREN WAS LIKE.

34:14 - >> CHIEF JUSTICE WARREN WAS VERY

34:21 - FORMAL, VERY JUDICIAL.

34:27 - OF COURSE, HE WAS THE CHIEF

34:28 - JUSTICE.

34:29 - A VERY POISED MAN AND A VERY

34:34 - PRIM AND PROPER MAN.

34:36 - HE WAS A FAST ADMINISTRATOR.

34:40 - HE WAS ALWAYS, SO TO SPEAK, IN A

34:44 - HURRY.

34:45 - WHEN I WAS QUESTIONING

34:48 - WITNESSES, FOR EXAMPLE,

34:49 - QUESTIONING THE DRIVER OF THE

34:51 - PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE IN A

34:54 - CLEAR AND METICULOUS MANNER,

34:55 - SUCH AS ASKING, "WHAT WAS THE

34:59 - APPROXIMATE TIME ELAPSED BETWEEN

35:01 - THE FIRST SHOT AND THE SECOND

35:03 - SHOT, SECOND SHOT AND THE THIRD

35:06 - SHOT, HOW MUCH TRAVEL DID THE

35:08 - CAR MAKE FROM THE FIRST SHOT

35:11 - TO THE SECOND SHOT.

35:13 - AND THE CHIEF JUSTICE WAS

35:14 - SITTING THERE STRUMMING HIS

35:15 - FINGERS ON THE DESK.

35:17 - AND THEN AFTER A WHILE, HE

35:19 - INTERRUPTED THE PROCEEDING AND

35:20 - TOOK ME HIS SIDE ROOM AND SAID,

35:22 - "YOU'VE GOT TO GET ON WITH

35:24 - THIS."

35:26 - I'D BEEN CHIEF OF THE APPEALS

35:28 - DIVISION, SO I'D HANDLED A LOT

35:30 - OF APPEALS.

35:31 - I KNEW WHAT ALL THIS TRANSCRIPT

35:33 - WAS GONNA LOOK LIKE IN PRINT.

35:35 - AND IT WASN'T EXACTLY THAT I

35:37 - THOUGHT SOMEBODY WAS GONNA GO

35:39 - OVER IT WITH A MICROSCOPE FOR

35:40 - THE NEXT CENTURY OR TWO, BUT I

35:43 - WAS GONNA DO IT THOROUGHLY.

35:44 - AND WHAT HE SAID TO ME -- "WE

35:45 - GOT TO GET ON WITH IT" -- I

35:46 - SAID, "NOW, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE,

35:48 - THESE QUESTIONS HAVE TO ASKED

35:50 - AND THEY HAVE TO BE ANSWERED.

35:51 - THEY HAVE TO BE ANSWERED

35:54 - METICULOUSLY."

35:56 - HE ALSO WAS NOT VERY GOOD IN

35:58 - EMERGENCIES.

36:00 - WHEN HE CAME TO THE FIRST

36:02 - HEARING, THERE WAS AN ENORMOUS

36:05 - CROWD OF NEWSPAPER PEOPLE

36:07 - AROUND, TELEVISION PEOPLE.

36:09 - AND WE WERE IN THE VETERANS OF

36:13 - FOREIGN WARS BUILDING, WHICH WAS

36:15 - CATTY-CORNER FROM THE SUPREME

36:16 - COURT BUILDING.

36:20 - AND THE FIRST WITNESS WAS MARINA

36:23 - OSWALD.

36:23 - AND IT WAS A PUBLIC HEARING

36:26 - BECAUSE HER LAWYER, MARK LANE,

36:28 - HAD ASKED FOR A PUBLIC HEARING.

36:30 - THE COMMISSION DECIDED THEY

36:32 - WOULD HOLD CLOSED HEARINGS,

36:34 - WHICH I THINK WAS A MISTAKE, BUT

36:36 - THAT'S ANOTHER STORY.

36:38 - AND UNLESS THE WITNESS OR THE

36:43 - WITNESS'S LAWYER FOR THE WITNESS

36:45 - WANTED IT OPEN, THEN THE

36:47 - COMMISSION WOULD HAVE IT OPEN.

36:49 - SO IT WAS OPEN.

36:50 - SO, AT ANY RATE, THE NEWS PEOPLE

36:52 - CAME AND CROWDED AROUND WARREN

36:53 - AND SAID, "WHAT'S SHE GONNA

36:54 - TESTIFY TO?"

36:55 - NOW, IN A SENATE HEARING, THAT

36:58 - HAPPENS OCCASIONALLY.

36:59 - IF THERE'S A VERY IMPORTANT

37:00 - MATTER, THERE WILL BE NEWS

37:01 - PEOPLE AND YOU'LL WALK IN AND

37:03 - THEY'LL TO THE CHAIRMAN -- WHEN

37:06 - I'VE CHAIRED THE JUDICIARY

37:07 - COMMITTEE, FOR EXAMPLE --

37:08 - "WHAT'S THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

37:11 - GONNA TESTIFY TO?"

37:13 - IF YOU KNEW THE GENERAL LINE OF

37:15 - QUESTIONING, YOU'D TELL THEM.

37:17 - WHEN THEY ASKED WARREN WHAT

37:19 - MARINA OSWALD WAS GONNA TESTIFY

37:21 - TO, HE DIDN'T KNOW.

37:23 - AND HE BECAME FLUSTERED, AND HE

37:24 - SAID, "THERE ARE SOME THINGS

37:26 - THAT MAY NOT BE KNOWN DURING OUR

37:28 - LIFETIMES."

37:30 - AND THAT HAS CAST SORT OF A PALL

37:32 - OVER THE WARREN COMMISSION

37:34 - HEARINGS, AND PEOPLE SUSPECT

37:35 - THAT HE WAS CONCEALING

37:38 - SOMETHING.

37:39 - WHEN WE WERE IN DALLAS AND WE

37:44 - WERE MEETING -- I THINK IT WAS

37:45 - WITH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL,

37:47 - WAGGONER CARR.

37:48 - WE WERE IN OUR HOTEL LOBBY.

37:50 - AND THERE WERE REPORTERS

37:51 - STANDING AT THE END OF THE

37:52 - CORRIDOR.

37:53 - THE CHIEF JUSTICE DID AN

37:55 - ABOUT-FACE AND WENT THE OTHER

37:57 - DIRECTION.

37:57 - HE DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE TO TALK

37:59 - TO REPORTERS.

38:00 - >> I DON'T WANT TO GO TOO FAR

38:02 - AHEAD INTO THE FUTURE, BUT TALK

38:04 - ABOUT SOME OF THE OTHER THEORIES

38:06 - THAT OPPOSE THE SINGLE-BULLET

38:07 - THEORY.

38:08 - IN PARTICULAR, WHEN YOU SERVED

38:10 - AS U.S. SENATOR, YOU MET WITH

38:11 - MANY WORLD LEADERS, INCLUDING

38:13 - CUBAN PRESIDENT FIDEL CASTRO.

38:15 - DID YOU EVER TALK TO HIM ABOUT

38:16 - WHETHER HE HAD ANY INVOLVEMENT

38:18 - OR ANY CONNECTION WITH THE

38:19 - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT

38:20 - KENNEDY?

38:21 - I DID ASK FIDEL CASTRO ABOUT THE

38:24 - WARREN COMMISSION.

38:25 - I FOUND HIM TO BE A VERY OPEN

38:31 - INTERLOCUTOR.

38:32 - WE TALKED ABOUT EVERYTHING,

38:34 - TALKED ABOUT WHY HE HAD THE

38:39 - MISSILES, THE RUSSIAN MISSILES,

38:41 - TALKED ABOUT WHY THE

38:44 - ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS.

38:47 - AND I SAID TO HIM VERY BLUNTLY,

38:49 - "WERE YOU INVOLVED IN THE PLAN

38:51 - TO KILL KENNEDY?"

38:53 - AND HE LOOKED AT ME AND DIDN'T

38:56 - MIND THE QUESTION, AND HE SAID,

38:59 - THROUGH AN INTERPRETER, "I'M A

39:00 - MARXIST, NOT A FOOL."

39:04 - >> NOW, MOVING ON, CAN YOU TALK

39:06 - ABOUT ONE OTHER THEORY?

39:07 - THERE WAS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE

39:08 - SINGLE-BULLET THEORY WITHOUT A

39:10 - SECOND GUN.

39:13 - >> WELL, THERE ARE LOTS OF

39:15 - THEORIES ABOUT THE

39:17 - ASSASSINATION, BUT THEY'RE ONLY

39:21 - THEORIES.

39:21 - BUT PEOPLE HAVE POSTULATED THAT

39:25 - SHOTS CAME FROM THE GRASSY

39:27 - KNOLL.

39:28 - AND IF THEY DID, THEY DIDN'T HIT

39:34 - ANYBODY IN THE CAR OR THE CAR

39:36 - ITSELF.

39:37 - AND THAT'S A PRETTY BIG TARGET,

39:38 - SO I THINK THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN

39:39 - SOME EVIDENCE THE SHOTS CAME

39:43 - FROM THE REAR AND BEHIND, AS

39:44 - EVIDENCE BY THE ROUND AND

39:46 - REGULAR HOLE IN THE BACK OF THE

39:49 - PRESIDENT'S NECK AND THE ROUND

39:50 - AND REGULAR HOLE IN HIS HEAD AND

39:52 - THE WOUND TO GOVERNOR CONNALLY,

39:55 - WOUNDS OF ENTRY.

39:58 - BUT PEOPLE SPECULATE ABOUT THE

40:01 - GRASSY KNOLL, BUT NO EVIDENCE OF

40:03 - IT.

40:04 - >> IN 1967, YOU PARTICIPATED IN

40:06 - A BBC PRODUCTION -- IT WAS A

40:08 - ROUNDTABLE DEBATE -- ABOUT WHAT

40:10 - HAPPENED WITH THE PRESIDENT'S

40:11 - ASSASSINATION.

40:12 - CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT

40:13 - THAT FORUM?

40:15 - >> WELL, IN LATE JANUARY OF

40:18 - 1967, THE BBC PLANNED A 4-HOUR

40:23 - PRESENTATION ON A SUNDAY NIGHT.

40:27 - AND THEY HAD TRIED TO GET SOME

40:31 - COMMISSIONERS TO GO TO APPEAR

40:33 - AND TALK ABOUT THE REPORT, AND

40:37 - THE COMMISSIONERS ALL DECLINED.

40:38 - AND THE COMMISSIONERS -- OR AT

40:43 - LEAST SOME OF THEM --

40:44 - RECOMMENDED ME.

40:47 - AND THEY CAME AND TALKED TO ME.

40:48 - AND I HAD AT FIRST BEEN

40:51 - RELUCTANT TO TALK ABOUT THE

40:54 - WARREN COMMISSION.

40:55 - BUT AS

40:57 - CRITICISM

40:58 - MOUNTED --

41:00 - AND

41:00 - I WAS A PUBLIC OFFICIAL.

41:01 - I'D BEEN ELECTED DISTRICT

41:03 - ATTORNEY IN 1965.

41:06 - AND THERE WAS NO LAWYER/CLIENT

41:08 - RELATIONSHIP.

41:10 - I HAD SPOKEN FOR AN INTERVIEW

41:13 - WITH U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT

41:15 - AND LOOKED AT -- WAS INTERVIEWED

41:17 - BY PEOPLE WRITING BOOKS.

41:19 - AND I AGREED TO PARTICIPATE.

41:22 - AND DAVID BELIN, ANOTHER ONE OF

41:25 - THE YOUNGER LAWYERS,

41:26 - PARTICIPATED.

41:28 - AND THE FOCUS WAS GONNA BE MARK

41:31 - LANE'S BOOK "RUSH TO JUDGMENT."

41:34 - AND THAT WAS GONNA OCCUPY THE

41:35 - FIRST HOUR AND 40 MINUTES OF THE

41:39 - SHOW, AND THE LAST 2 HOURS AND

41:40 - 20 MINUTES WOULD BE THE

41:42 - DISCUSSION AMONG LANE, BELIN,

41:48 - AND THEY HAD THE CHIEF JUSTICE

41:53 - OF THE BRITISH SUPREME COURT

41:58 - THERE.

42:00 - >> DO YOU THINK IT WAS A FAIR

42:01 - FORUM?

42:02 - >> FAIR FORUM?

42:03 - SURE.

42:05 - IT WAS OKAY.

42:06 - THE MOVIE WAS PLAYED, AND THEN

42:10 - WE DISCUSSED OTHER POINTS OF

42:13 - VIEW.

42:14 - AND IT WAS VERY LIVELY.

42:17 - IT'S ALL ON TAPE.

42:18 - PEOPLE CAN WATCH IT.

42:20 - THE HISTORY CHANNEL PLAYS PARTS

42:22 - OF IT FROM TIME TO TIME.

42:25 - WHEN THE FOUR HOURS HAD ELAPSED,

42:28 - THEY EXTENDED IT FOR AN

42:29 - ADDITIONAL 45 MINUTES.

42:32 - AND THEN WHEN THE 4 HOURS AND 45

42:34 - MINUTES WERE UP, MARK LANE HAD A

42:36 - NEWS CONFERENCE AFTERWARDS.

42:37 - HE WASN'T SATISFIED WITH AS MUCH

42:40 - TIME AS HE HAD.

42:42 - ONE OF THE ASPECTS OF THE

42:44 - NEGOTIATIONS WAS THAT SINCE THE

42:48 - COMMISSION SO TO SPEAK HAD THE

42:49 - BURDEN OF PROOF, I WANTED THE

42:51 - LAST WORD.

42:51 - AND I WAS ASSURED BY THE

42:55 - TELEVISION PEOPLE THAT I WOULD

42:56 - HAVE THE LAST WORD.

42:58 - AND WHEN WE GOT THERE, I FOUND

43:01 - THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE BRITISH

43:04 - SUPREME COURT, OR THE EQUIVALENT

43:06 - THEREOF, THERE.

43:09 - AND I HEARD HE WAS GONNA HAVE

43:10 - THE LAST WORD.

43:12 - AND I RAISED A LITTLE HELL.

43:15 - IN FACT, I RAISED A LOT OF HELL.

43:17 - AND WE HAD SOME DISCUSSIONS

43:20 - OFF-CAMERA ABOUT IT.

43:21 - I COULD SOON SEE THAT IF A

43:24 - BATTLE WAS BETWEEN ARLEN

43:26 - SPECTER, THIS LAWYER FROM

43:27 - PHILADELPHIA, AND THE CHIEF

43:31 - JUSTICE, THAT I KNEW WHO WAS

43:33 - GONNA PREVAIL.

43:34 - AND THE CHIEF JUSTICE GOT QUITE

43:36 - A KICK OUT OF IT, AND HE SAID,

43:40 - "IT LOOKS LIKE THEY'VE SOLD THE

43:42 - SAME GOODS TWICE."

43:44 - THAT'S A MERCANTILE EXPRESSION,

43:46 - THE LAW OF THE MERCHANTS, SALE

43:48 - OF GOODS -- "THEY SOLD THE SAME

43:50 - GOODS TWICE."

43:50 - AND HE HAD THE LAST WORD.

43:54 - AND WHEN HE HAD THE LAST WORD,

43:55 - I DIDN'T REALLY MIND TOO MUCH

43:57 - BETWEEN IT WAS VERY EFFECTIVE.

44:01 - HE CONCLUDED BY SAYING, "OF ALL

44:05 - THE IMPROBABILITIES, THE

44:08 - SINGLE-BULLET THEORY IS THE

44:10 - LEAST IMPROBABLE."

44:13 - SO, IT WAS OKAY WITH ME IF IT

44:15 - WAS IMPROBABLY, AS LONG AS IT

44:17 - WAS ACCEPTED AS THE LEAST

44:20 - IMPROBABLE.

44:20 - THERE WAS A VERY DISTINGUISHED

44:21 - YALE LAW PROFESSOR NAMED BICKEL

44:24 - WHO WAS THERE.

44:27 - AND HE GOT THREE MINUTES OUT OF

44:29 - FOUR HOURS, AND HE WAS

44:30 - INDIGNANT.

44:32 - COME ALL THE WAY TO LONDON TO BE

44:35 - ON THE BBC SHOW.

44:37 - AND THERE WAS SO MUCH PACKED IN.

44:39 - IT WAS A VERY LIVELY, VERY

44:46 - CONTENTIOUS DISCUSSION WE HAD.

44:49 - >> I'D LIKE TO MOVE ON NOW,

44:50 - BEYOND THE WARREN COMMISSION,

44:51 - AND TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SOME

44:52 - OF YOUR CAMPAIGNS AND SOME OF

44:53 - YOUR SERVICE IN PUBLIC OFFICE.

44:55 - DURING ONE OF YOUR EARLIER

44:56 - INTERVIEWS, YOU TALKED ABOUT

44:58 - DEALING WITH A

44:59 - DISTRICT-MAGISTRATE SITUATION IN

45:01 - PHILADELPHIA AND CLEANING THAT

45:02 - UP.

45:02 - DO YOU THINK THAT PHILADELPHIA

45:03 - POLITICS HAS CHANGED SINCE THEN?

45:06 - >> OH, PHILADELPHIA POLITICS HAS

45:08 - CHANGED, CHANGED A LOT.

45:11 - THE MAGISTERIAL SYSTEM HAD BEEN

45:15 - IN EXISTENCE IN PENN'S SECOND

45:17 - CHARTER, IN 1691.

45:22 - AND IT WAS AN ATROCIOUS SYSTEM.

45:26 - THEY WERE MINOR COURTS.

45:28 - THEY HANDLED CIVIL DISPUTES

45:32 - WITH JURISDICTION OF $100 OR

45:34 - LESS.

45:35 - AND THEY HANDLED PRELIMINARY

45:37 - HEARINGS IN CRIMINAL MATTERS.

45:40 - ONLY ONE OF THE 28 MAGISTRATES

45:42 - WAS A LAWYER.

45:44 - AND THERE WAS A LOT OF

45:46 - CORRUPTION.

45:48 - IT WAS A COMMON PRACTICE TO

45:51 - ACCEPT BRIBES.

45:53 - IF SOMEBODY WAS HELD ON A CHARGE

45:57 - OF WRITING NUMBERS -- A MINOR

45:59 - OFFENSE, FOR EXAMPLE, A GAMBLING

46:00 - CHARGE -- IF BAIL WAS POSTED AT

46:04 - $100, IT WOULD -- $1,000, RATHER

46:07 - -- IT WOULD COST $100 FOR THE

46:09 - BAIL BONDSMAN.

46:11 - SO, THERE WERE A LOT OF BACKROOM

46:12 - DEALS.

46:13 - THE MAGISTRATE WOULD CALL PEOPLE

46:14 - INTO THE BACKROOM AND SAID,

46:16 - "YOUR BAIL'S GONNA BE $100.

46:18 - GIVE ME $100, AND I'LL DISMISS

46:21 - THE CASE."

46:22 - AND THOSE KIND OF PAYOFFS WERE

46:25 - RAMPANT.

46:27 - AND THE MAGISTRATES ALSO ENGAGED

46:29 - IN HIS COLLECTION AGENCIES.

46:33 - THE MOST PROMINENT COMPANIES IN

46:37 - TOWN WOULD GO TO THEM TO COLLECT

46:38 - SMALL BILLS, A $75 BILL AT ONE

46:43 - OF THE DEPARTMENT STORES, AN $80

46:46 - TELEPHONE BILL.

46:48 - AND THEN THE MAGISTRATES WOULD

46:50 - ADD ON COSTS SO THAT VERY

46:51 - FREQUENTLY, IF AN ITEM IN

46:54 - CONTROVERSY WAS, SAY, $75, BY

46:58 - THE TIM THEY ADDED THE COSTS ON,

47:00 - IT MIGHT BE $180.

47:04 - AND THE MAGISTRATES CHARGED 50%

47:09 - OF WHAT WAS COLLECTED.

47:11 - SO, YOU CAN SEE IMMEDIATELY THE

47:13 - INJUSTICE OF HAVING THE JUDGE

47:16 - GET A SHARE OF THE PROCEEDS --

47:18 - STRONG MOTIVATION FOR THE JUDGE

47:20 - TO FIND AGAINST THE DEFENDANT

47:23 - AND IN FAVOR OF THE PLAINTIFF.

47:26 - AND THEY ADVERTISED IN THE

47:28 - YELLOW PAGES.

47:29 - THEY HAD A COLLECTION AGENCY.

47:33 - AND IT WAS REALLY A BLIGHT ON

47:36 - THE COMMUNITY.

47:36 - AND THEY WERE VERY POWERFUL

47:38 - POLITICALLY.

47:39 - THEY WERE ELECTED.

47:41 - AND THEY HAD TO MAKE

47:43 - CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE POLITICAL

47:46 - PARTIES TO WIN THE SEATS AS

47:50 - MAGISTRATES.

47:52 - AND IT WAS VERY BAD.

47:56 - AND I FILED A VERY LENGTHY

47:58 - REPORT -- 515 PAGES.

48:03 - AS A RESULT OF THE MAGISTRATES

48:04 - INVESTIGATION, QUITE A NUMBER OF

48:08 - THEM WERE INDICTED, CONVICTED,

48:13 - AND THE SYSTEM WAS CHANGED.

48:18 - THEY WERE POWERFUL POLITICALLY,

48:20 - AND THERE HAD BEEN AN EFFORT TO

48:21 - HAVE A CHANGE IN THE

48:23 - CONSTITUTION IN THE 1962

48:26 - ELECTION.

48:27 - A CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE

48:31 - REQUIRES, UNDER PENNSYLVANIA

48:34 - LAW, A REFERENDUM OR A

48:35 - CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION.

48:38 - AND THERE WAS A VOTE PUT TO THE

48:40 - PEOPLE, AND THEY DEFEATED IT.

48:42 - AND WE GOT A COPY OF THE NOTES

48:45 - OF ONE OF THE MEETINGS OF THE

48:46 - BOARD OF MAGISTRATE, HOW THEY

48:48 - WERE GONNA PLAN TO GO OUT AND

48:50 - SEE THAT THIS WAS DEFEATED.

48:56 - THIS IS THE BOOK, "INVESTIGATION

49:00 - OF THE MAGISTERIAL SYSTEM."

49:03 - IT'S 515 PAGES LONG, AND IT

49:07 - DOCUMENTS THE WAY THE

49:10 - MAGISTRATES WOULD COLLECT

49:13 - BRIBES, HOW THE COLLECTION

49:15 - RACKET WORKED, DESCRIBES HOW

49:17 - THEY WOULD CHARGE FOR WHAT WAS

49:20 - CALLED THE COPY OF THE CHARGE.

49:22 - WHEN SOMEONE WAS ARRESTED, THEY

49:28 - WOULD BE TAKEN INTO POLICE

49:29 - CUSTODY,

49:30 - AND IN ORDER TO BE

49:31 - RELEASED, THE MAGISTRATE HAD TO

49:34 - SIGN WHAT WAS CALLED A COPY OF

49:36 - THE CHARGE.

49:36 - AND THE STATUTE PROVIDED FOR A

49:39 - $1 FEE.

49:41 - AND THE TYPICAL CHARGE WAS $5.

49:45 - AND ONE OF THE MAGISTRATES HAD A

49:48 - BIG SIGN IN HIS OFFICE -- $5

49:52 - DURING REGULAR HOURS UP TILL

49:54 - 5:00, AND 5:00 TO 8:00, AN

49:58 - ADDITIONAL CHARGE, PERHAPS $10,

50:01 - AND 8:00 TO MIDNIGHT, PERHAPS

50:02 - $20, AND MIDNIGHT TO 8:00 A.M.,

50:08 - SOME HIGHER CHARGE YET.

50:10 - AND HE LIVED IN NORTH

50:12 - PHILADELPHIA, IN A ROW HOUSE, ON

50:14 - THE SECOND FLOOR.

50:15 - AND PEOPLE WOULD COME IN THE

50:16 - MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND RING HIS

50:18 - DOORBELL.

50:19 - AND HE WOULD LOWER A CIGAR BOX

50:21 - WITH ROPES ON EACH SIDE, TELL

50:24 - THEM HOW MUCH MONEY TO PUT IN

50:26 - FROM THE WINDOW, PUT THE MONEY

50:28 - IN, COME UP WITH A COPY OF THE

50:30 - CHARGE.

50:30 - HE'D SIGN IT AND SEND IT DOWN.

50:32 - THAT MAGISTRATE WAS EARL LANE.

50:34 - HE WAS CONVICTED ON MANY, MANY

50:38 - COUNTS.

50:39 - BEFORE LEAVING THE MAGISTRATES

50:41 - REPORT, I DELIVERED THIS TO

50:43 - GOVERNOR SCRANTON IN AUGUST OF

50:45 - 1964.

50:48 - >> ON A MORE PERSONAL NOTE, YOU

50:50 - LOST YOUR FATHER IN 1964.

50:52 - CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE

50:52 - CIRCUMSTANCES?

50:54 - MY FATHER HAD A LIFELONG DESIRE

50:57 - TO VISIT ISRAEL.

51:00 - HE WAS A ZIONIST.

51:03 - HE BELIEVED IN A JEWISH

51:05 - HOMELAND.

51:06 - AND IT WAS A VERY STRONG FEELING

51:08 - ON HIS PART BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN

51:10 - PERSECUTED IN RUSSIA AS A YOUNG

51:16 - MAN AND HAD IMMIGRATED TO THE

51:18 - UNITED STATES.

51:20 - AND HE AND MY MOTHER PLANNED A

51:21 - TRIP TO ISRAEL IN OCTOBER OF

51:26 - 1964.

51:28 - THEY SAILED ON A BOAT CALLED THE

51:30 - SHALOM.

51:32 - AND WHEN HE WAS THERE, HE WAS SO

51:38 - EXCITED THAT HE EXERTED HIMSELF

51:40 - AND SUFFERED A HEART ATTACK AND

51:42 - WAS IN THE HOSPITAL FOR 10 DAYS

51:43 - AND, UNFORTUNATELY, DIED.

51:47 - IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT

51:49 - EXPERIENCE WHEN YOUR FATHER

51:50 - DIES, OBVIOUSLY.

51:52 - AND HE HAD EXPRESSED OVER THE

51:56 - YEARS AN INTEREST IN BEING

51:58 - BURIED IN ISRAEL.

52:00 - SO, IT WORKED OUT THAT HE WAS

52:03 - BURIED IN ISRAEL.

52:06 - I GOT A CALL ON A MONDAY

52:08 - MORNING, ABOUT 5:30 IN THE

52:11 - MORNING, FROM MY MOTHER -- THAT

52:14 - WAS AT 12:30 HER TIME -- TELLING

52:20 - ME OF MY FATHER'S PASSING.

52:22 - AND MY SISTER, HILDA, CAME FROM

52:26 - DENVER, WHERE SHE LIVED, AND

52:28 - KEPT THE PASSPORT OFFICE OPEN

52:30 - FOR HER AND FLEW OUT THAT NIGHT.

52:32 - AND UNDER JEWISH LAW, TRADITION,

52:37 - BURIAL MUST OCCUR WITHIN 24

52:39 - HOURS, AND HE WAS BURIED IN

52:42 - ISRAEL.

52:43 - >> WHAT WOULD YOUR FATHER HAVE

52:44 - THOUGHT ABOUT YOUR POLITICAL

52:45 - CAREER?

52:46 - >> WELL, HE WOULD OBVIOUSLY HAVE

52:49 - BEEN PROUD OF MY POLITICAL

52:50 - CAREER.

52:52 - HE WAS PROUD EVEN BEFORE I HAD A

52:53 - POLITICAL CAREER.

52:56 - MY FATHER WAS VERY INTERESTED IN

53:00 - POLITICS, AND HE BELIEVED IN THE

53:04 - IMPORTANCE OF GOVERNMENT.

53:07 - AND HE GOT THAT ATTITUDE FROM

53:10 - LIVING UNDER THE CZAR'S HEEL.

53:12 - HE KNEW WHAT A BAD GOVERNMENT

53:14 - WAS, AND HE LOVED THE UNITED

53:16 - STATES.

53:16 - HE WAS IN THE AMERICAN

53:19 - EXPEDITIONARY FORCE, FOUGHT IN

53:20 - WORLD WAR I, WAS WOUNDED IN

53:23 - ACTION IN THE ARGONNE FOREST AND

53:27 - CARRIED SHRAPNEL IN HIS LEGS

53:28 - UNTIL THE DAY HE DIED.

53:31 - HE SHOOK THE HAND OF AL SMITH IN

53:35 - 1928, IN THE WICHITA TRAIN

53:38 - STATION.

53:39 - WE LIVED IN WICHITA.

53:39 - IT WAS BEFORE I WAS BORN.

53:42 - AND HE TALKED ABOUT IT FOR

53:43 - YEARS, HOW HE'D SHAKEN

53:46 - AL SMITH'S HANDS.

53:48 - AND HE TALKED A LOT ABOUT

53:51 - PRESIDENTIAL TIMBER, THIS MAN OR

53:54 - THAT MAN BEING OF PRESIDENT

53:56 - TIMBER.

53:58 - AND I THINK AT AN EARLY AGE, AS

54:00 - A CHILD, I MAY HAVE BEEN

54:03 - INFLUENCED TO WANT TO BECOME

54:04 - PRESIDENT TO PLEASE MY FATHER.

54:07 - SO I JOKINGLY SAY THAT I GOT BAD

54:10 - ADVICE FROM MY MOTHER.

54:12 - MY MOTHER TOLD ME I COULD BE

54:13 - ANYTHING I WANTED TO BE.

54:15 - WELL, I WANTED TO BE PRESIDENT,

54:16 - SO SHE WAS WRONG.

54:17 - I GOT BAD ADVICE.

54:20 - AND I RAN FOR PRESIDENT, TRIED

54:23 - TO GET THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION

54:25 - IN 1996, THE 1996 NOMINATION.

54:30 - AND IT WAS A LONG, LONG SHOT TO

54:35 - GIVING MY POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY

54:37 - AND BEING A CENTRIST, CONTRASTED

54:40 - WITH THE FAR RIGHT, WHICH HAS

54:42 - ALWAYS CONTROLLED THE REPUBLICAN

54:43 - PARTY, ESPECIALLY THE NOMINATION

54:46 - PROCESS.

54:47 - BUT I WANTED TO TRY TO PULL THE

54:49 - PARTY BACK TO THE CENTER.

54:52 - BUT MY AUNT ANN TOLD ME THAT MY

54:56 - FATHER'S AMBITION WAS FOR ME TO

54:58 - BE A SENATOR.

55:00 - AND I DON'T RECALL THAT.

55:04 - MY RECOLLECTION IS, FOCUS ON

55:08 - PRESIDENTIAL TIMBER.

55:09 - >> WHAT TRAITS DO YOU THINK YOU

55:11 - ACQUIRED FROM YOUR FATHER?

55:13 - >> INTEGRITY, WORK ETHIC,

55:17 - PERSEVERANCE, OPTIMISM, KEEPING

55:26 - TRYING,

55:28 - NEVER GIVE IN, YOU CAN

55:30 - GET THERE, USE YOUR OWN

55:33 - JUDGMENT.

55:38 - HIS LIFE WAS TOUGH, EMIGRATING

55:40 - FROM RUSSIA, STEERAGE, THE

55:44 - BOTTOM OF A BOAT, NEW COUNTRY,

55:46 - STRANGE LANGUAGE, DIFFICULTY,

55:50 - PERSEVERING, DEPRESSION, TOUGH

55:54 - TIMES, WOUNDED IN ACTION, HAD A

55:57 - BAD ACCIDENT AND LOST THE USE OF

55:58 - HIS RIGHT ARM.

55:59 - WHEN HE WAS RIDING IN A

56:02 - CHEVROLET IN 1937, A SPINDLE

56:05 - BOLT BROKE, A DEFECTIVE PART OF

56:08 - THE CAR.

56:08 - THE CAR TURNED OVER, LANDED ON

56:10 - HIS RIGHT ARM.

56:12 - MY SISTER, HILDA, WAS DRIVING.

56:14 - AND HE WENT TO THE VETERANS

56:17 - HOSPITAL, THEY PUT WIRE IN HIS

56:19 - ARM, AND HE PERSEVERED, OPENED

56:21 - A JUNKYARD, A LOT OF MANUAL

56:23 - LABOR.

56:25 - TOUGH.

56:26 - "SCHVER TSU MACHEN A LEBN" WAS

56:28 - HIS YIDDISH EXPRESSION.

56:30 - "SCHVER" MEANS TOUGH, SEVERE.

56:32 - TO "MACHEN" -- MAKE -- "A

56:33 - LEBN" -- A LIVING.

56:35 - AND HE DID IT.

56:36 - AND I ALWAYS SAY THAT MY LIFE

56:39 - HAS BEEN A ROLLEY COASTER

56:40 - DOWNHILL COMPARED TO HIS.

56:43 - >> LET'S MOVE ON TO SOME OF YOUR

56:45 - POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS THAT YOU

56:46 - BECAME INVOLVED IN.

56:47 - IN 1965, YOU RAN FOR

56:49 - PHILADELPHIA DISTRICT ATTORNEY.

56:51 - TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT

56:52 - RACE.

56:52 - IN PARTICULAR, WHY DID YOU RUN

56:53 - AS A REPUBLICAN?

56:54 - >> I RAN FOR DISTRICT ATTORNEY

56:56 - ON THE REPUBLICAN TICKET IN 1965

57:00 - BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS DID NOT

57:08 - WANT ME.

57:10 - I HAD WON SOME BIG CASES AS AN

57:14 - ASSISTANT D.A., CONVICTED THE

57:17 - TEAMSTERS LOCAL 107, SENT THE

57:20 - SIX RINGLEADERS TO JAIL, HAD

57:23 - SOME OTHER MAJOR SUCCESSES, WAS

57:28 - SUCCESSFUL ON THE MAGISTERIAL

57:30 - SYSTEM, HAD BEEN ASSISTANT

57:32 - COUNSEL TO THE WARREN

57:33 - COMMISSION, AND MANY PEOPLE

57:37 - THOUGHT I WAS IN LINE TO BE THE

57:39 - DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE.

57:42 - SENATOR JOE CLARK RECOMMENDED ME

57:44 - TO BE THE NOMINEE.

57:47 - AND WHEN I WENT AND TALKED TO

57:49 - THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PARTY

57:52 - LOCALLY, A MAN NAMED FRANK

57:54 - SMITH, HE SAID VERY BLUNTLY, "WE

57:57 - DON'T WANT A YOUNG TOM DEWEY IN

57:59 - THE D.A.'S OFFICE."

58:05 - MANY PEOPLE AT THIS TIME DON'T

58:08 - REMEMBER WHO TOM DEWEY WAS, BUT

58:10 - TOM DEWEY WAS THE DISTRICT

58:12 - ATTORNEY OF MANHATTAN IN

58:14 - NEW YORK.

58:16 - HE FOUGHT THE MAFIA, ORGANIZED

58:19 - CRIME, IN THE '30s, LATER WAS

58:20 - GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK, AND TWICE

58:23 - THE DEFEATED REPUBLICAN

58:24 - CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT.

58:26 - BUT HE WAS A CRIME-BUSTER.

58:28 - AND THE REPUBLICANS CAME TO ME

58:33 - AND SAID, "RUN ON OUR TICKET, NO

58:37 - STRINGS ATTACHED."

58:38 - AND I THOUGHT THAT I HAD NO

58:41 - FUTURE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY,

58:45 - NO FUTURE, REALLY, IN POLITICS.

58:48 - AND THERE'S NO DEMOCRATIC OR

58:50 - REPUBLICAN WAY TO RUN THE

58:52 - DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.

58:54 - FIORELLO LAGUARDIA WAS A FAMOUS

58:56 - MAYOR OF NEW YORK WHO SAID

58:59 - THERE'S NO DEMOCRATIC OR

59:00 - REPUBLICAN WAY TO CLEAN THE

59:01 - STREETS.

59:03 - AND THAT GOES FOR LAW

59:05 - ENFORCEMENT, AS WELL.

59:07 - SO, THE NOMINATION WAS OFFERED

59:08 - TO ME, NO STRINGS ATTACHED.

59:12 - I DIDN'T EVEN CHANGE MY

59:13 - REGISTRATION.

59:14 - I STAYED A REGISTERED DEMOCRAT

59:16 - AND RAN AND WON A MAJOR UPSET

59:20 - VICTORY.

59:20 - THE DEMOCRATS HAD CARRIED

59:23 - PHILADELPHIA BY BIG NUMBERS.

59:26 - EISENHOWER SWEPT THE COUNTRY IN

59:30 - 1952 AND 1956 AND LOST

59:33 - PHILADELPHIA EACH TIME BY MORE

59:36 - THAN 150,000.

59:38 - JOHN KENNEDY CARRIED

59:39 - PHILADELPHIA IN 1960 BY 331,000,

59:44 - LYNDON JOHNSON OVER BARRY

59:46 - GOLDWATER BY MORE THAN 400,000.

59:48 - SO, A YEAR LATER, IN '65, IT

59:51 - DIDN'T LOOK LIKE THERE WAS ANY

59:53 - REAL CHANCE FOR A REPUBLICAN.

59:55 - A REPUBLICAN HADN'T WON THE CITY

59:59 - 230 FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

01:00 - 03.366 AND I TOOK IT ON AND WAS

01:00 - 04.534 SUCCESSFUL.

01:00 - 05.201 >> CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT

01:00 - 06.603 ABOUT SENATOR HUGH SCOTT'S

01:00 - 10.573 PERSONAL APPEAL TO YOU TO RUN?

01:00 - 12.075 >> HUGH SCOTT'S PERSONAL APPEAL

01:00 - 12.875 TO ME TO RUN?

01:00 - 14.043 SURE, I CAN TALK TO YOU ABOUT

01:00 - 15.345 THAT.

01:00 - 18.548 NEVER HAPPENED.

01:00 - 21.284 IT WAS REPUTED TO HAVE HAPPENED,

01:00 - 24.387 BUT -- WELL, NO, LET ME COME

01:00 - 24.954 BACK TO THAT.

01:00 - 27.023 HE DID MAKE A TELEPHONE CALL,

01:00 - 29.626 BUT HE MADE A TELEPHONE CALL AT

01:00 - 31.227 THE REQUEST OF THE POLITICAL

01:00 - 33.463 LEADER, BILL MEEHAN, BUT IT

01:00 - 35.798 WASN'T EXACTLY AS IF SENATOR

01:00 - 38.434 SCOTT HAD TAKEN A LOOK AT THE

01:00 - 40.269 SITUATION AND SEEN WHAT I HAD

01:00 - 42.205 DONE AND SAID I WOULD BE THE GUY

01:00 - 44.040 TO RUN FOR DISTRICT ATTORNEY.

01:00 - 48.077 BILL MEEHAN, WHO WAS THE LOCAL

01:00 - 51.014 LEADER, HAD URGED ME TO RUN, AND

01:00 - 53.349 I HAD DISCUSSED IT WITH HIM OVER

01:00 - 54.117 WEEKS.

01:00 - 55.852 AND ONE DAY, I DID GET A CALL

01:00 - 58.421 FROM SENATOR SCOTT.

01:00 - 01.391 BUT THAT DIDN'T WEIGH VERY

01:01 - 03.159 HEAVILY IN MY THINKING.

01:01 - 04.027 >> WHO WERE YOUR POLITICAL

01:01 - 06.562 ALLIES AT THE TIME?

01:01 - 08.798 >> MY POLITICAL ALLIES?

01:01 - 14.470 WELL, I HAD A GOOD FRIEND --

01:01 - 16.439 ED BECKER -- WHO WAS COUNSEL TO

01:01 - 19.108 THE REPUBLICAN COMMITTEE.

01:01 - 20.943 I KNEW THE DEMOCRATIC LEADER OF

01:01 - 22.645 MY WARD, A FELLOW NAMED

01:01 - 25.181 BILL LAWRENCE.

01:01 - 26.249 BUT I WOULDN'T SAY THAT I HAD

01:01 - 28.985 ANY POLITICAL ALLIES.

01:01 - 30.353 >> HOW DID YOU GET ALIGNED WITH

01:01 - 32.221 JIM CAVANAUGH TO RUN AS A SLATE

01:01 - 34.891 TOGETHER?

01:01 - 35.992 >> BILL MEEHAN PICKED JIM

01:01 - 39.696 CAVANAUGH TO RUN.

01:01 - 44.267 THE MEEHANS -- BILL'S FATHER,

01:01 - 45.735 SHERIFF AUSTIN MEEHAN, WAS A

01:01 - 47.637 LEADER OF THE PARTY.

01:01 - 50.440 AND BILL HAD COMPLETE CONTROL OF

01:01 - 52.308 THE PARTY.

01:01 - 55.344 AND HE WOULD ASSEMBLE THE MOST

01:01 - 57.313 PROMINENT REPUBLICANS IN TOWN TO

01:01 - 58.848 BE ON THE SO-CALLED ADVISORY

01:01 - 59.849 BOARD.

01:01 - 03.486 AND THEY DID EXACTLY WHAT HE

01:02 - 06.122 ASKED THEM TO DO OR, REALLY,

01:02 - 07.156 TOLD THEM TO DO.

01:02 - 11.694 THAT'S BOSS POLITICS, WHICH WAS

01:02 - 12.261 THE RULE.

01:02 - 15.431 DEMOCRATS HAD THE SAME THING.

01:02 - 16.733 BILL GREENE, THE ELDER, THE

01:02 - 18.468 CONGRESSMAN, AND A MAN NAMED JIM

01:02 - 19.869 CLARK, WHO HAD A TRUCKING

01:02 - 23.272 COMPANY, WERE IN CHARGE OF THE

01:02 - 26.476 DEMOCRATIC MACHINE.

01:02 - 29.112 TO SHOW YOU HOW COMPLETE IT WAS,

01:02 - 31.280 THE CHAIRMAN OF THE DEMOCRATIC

01:02 - 32.782 -- RATHER, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE

01:02 - 36.519 REPUBLICAN PARTY, A MAN NAMED

01:02 - 38.955 BILL DEVLIN, WASN'T EVEN

01:02 - 43.893 CONSULTED BY BILL MEEHAN.

01:02 - 45.528 BILLY MEEHAN ALWAYS LET IT GO

01:02 - 48.831 UNTIL THE LAST MINUTE FOR DRAMA.

01:02 - 51.801 AND THE FINAL FILING DATE WAS A

01:02 - 55.872 TUESDAY, FIRST OR SECOND TUESDAY

01:02 - 57.940 OF MARCH.

01:02 - 59.776 AND I HAD BEEN TALKING TO

01:02 - 00.943 MEEHAN.

01:03 - 04.113 AND I HAD A MENTOR -- HE WASN'T

01:03 - 05.681 REALLY A POLITICAL ALLY -- A MAN

01:03 - 07.083 NAMED MORTON WITKIN, WHO WAS A

01:03 - 08.284 LAWYER.

01:03 - 09.952 I HAD GOTTEN TO KNOW MORTON

01:03 - 12.021 WITKIN BECAUSE HE WAS THE LEAD

01:03 - 13.856 LAWYER REPRESENTING THE

01:03 - 15.057 TEAMSTERS, AND WE WERE ON

01:03 - 16.659 OPPOSITE SIDES OF THE FENCE.

01:03 - 18.394 AND DURING THE COURSE OF THE

01:03 - 21.130 10-WEEK TRIAL, WE GOT TO KNOW

01:03 - 24.367 EACH OTHER AND BECAME FRIENDS.

01:03 - 27.069 WE WERE VERY BITTER ADVERSARIES

01:03 - 29.972 AT FIRST, AND WE MAINTAINED THAT

01:03 - 31.741 ADVERSARIAL RELATIONSHIP THROUGH

01:03 - 33.176 THE TRIAL.

01:03 - 35.278 BUT I HAD A LOT OF RESPECT FOR

01:03 - 38.714 HIM, AND IT MAY HAVE BEEN

01:03 - 40.550 RECIPROCATED, PROBABLY WAS, AND

01:03 - 43.352 WE WERE FRIENDS.

01:03 - 44.787 BUT MORTON WITKIN WAS THE MAN

01:03 - 47.223 WHO WAS REALLY THE MIDDLEMAN,

01:03 - 49.859 THE BROKER WHO BROUGHT MEEHAN.

01:03 - 51.894 MEEHAN WANTED TO TALK TO ME, AND

01:03 - 53.362 MEEHAN KNEW THAT WITKIN KNEW ME,

01:03 - 54.730 AND WE HAD MEETINGS IN MORTON

01:03 - 56.132 WITKIN'S APARTMENT ON

01:03 - 57.300 RITTENHOUSE SQUARE, MANY

01:03 - 59.268 MEETINGS BECAUSE I WAS VERY

01:03 - 03.272 RELUCTANT TO RUN ON THE

01:04 - 04.707 REPUBLICAN TICKET.

01:04 - 07.410 AND I WANTED THE GROUND RULES

01:04 - 09.545 CLEARLY EXPRESSED THAT THEY WERE

01:04 - 11.447 TO HAVE NO SAY IN THE HIRING AND

01:04 - 14.016 THAT I WAS TO RUN AN INDEPENDENT

01:04 - 14.584 OFFICE.

01:04 - 16.052 AND AS I SAID, I WOULDN'T EVEN

01:04 - 21.190 CHANGE MY REGISTRATION.

01:04 - 22.992 SO, THE ARRANGEMENT HAD BEEN

01:04 - 28.731 MADE, AND I WAS TO BE SELECTED

01:04 - 29.665 ON THE TUESDAY.

01:04 - 32.902 A DAILY NEWS REPORTED CALLED UP

01:04 - 34.270 BILL DEVLIN, THE CHAIRMAN, ON

01:04 - 36.572 SUNDAY NIGHT, AND SAID, "THERE'S

01:04 - 37.907 A RUMOR GOING AROUND TOWN THAT

01:04 - 39.308 ARLEN SPECTER'S GONNA BE THE

01:04 - 40.743 NOMINEE OF THE REPUBLICAN

01:04 - 42.278 PARTY."

01:04 - 44.146 AND BILL DEVLIN, THE CHAIRMAN,

01:04 - 45.781 SAID, "NOTHING TO IT.

01:04 - 46.916 DON'T YOU THINK I'D KNOW IF

01:04 - 49.118 THERE'S WAS SOMETHING --"

01:04 - 52.355 THAT WAS ABOUT 36 HOURS BEFORE

01:04 - 56.092 MEEHAN SPREAD THE WORD TO THIS

01:04 - 57.793 DISTINGUISHED GROUP OF

01:04 - 00.529 REPUBLICAN CITIZENS, ABOUT 30 OF

01:05 - 03.532 THEM, BELLEVUE-STRATFORD HOTEL.

01:05 - 06.235 AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I

01:05 - 09.438 MET HUGH SCOTT.

01:05 - 10.673 AND I MET HUGH SCOTT.

01:05 - 13.342 I GOT TO THE BELLEVUE, AND I WAS

01:05 - 14.677 WALKING DOWN THE CORRIDOR.

01:05 - 15.778 I BELIEVE IT WAS THE SECOND

01:05 - 16.812 FLOOR, WHERE THEIR MEETING WAS

01:05 - 17.546 GONNA BE HELD.

01:05 - 22.285 AND I PASSED HUGH SCOTT, AND HE

01:05 - 23.219 DIDN'T KNOW ME FROM ADAM.

01:05 - 27.089 YOU ASKED ABOUT HUGH SCOTT BEING

01:05 - 29.392 THE DRIVING FORCE OR ASKING ME

01:05 - 31.193 TO RUN.

01:05 - 31.994 AND A FEW MINUTES LATER, I

01:05 - 34.730 WALKED INTO THE ROOM,

01:05 - 37.400 AND SENATOR SCOTT THREW HIS ARM

01:05 - 38.267 AROUND ME AND SAID, "I WANT TO

01:05 - 39.602 INTRODUCE YOU TO MY GOOD FRIEND

01:05 - 43.139 ARLEN SPECTER."

01:05 - 45.541 HE WANTED TO INTRODUCE ME TO

01:05 - 48.244 HIMSELF, TOO.

01:05 - 49.779 BUT THAT'S THE POLITICS AND SHOW

01:05 - 50.780 BUSINESS.

01:05 - 52.181 >> WHAT EARLY LESSONS DID YOU

01:05 - 53.549 LEARN FROM THAT FIRST CAMPAIGN

01:05 - 55.184 THAT YOU CARRIED ALONG WITH YOU

01:05 - 56.485 THROUGH OTHER CAMPAIGNS LATER IN

01:05 - 57.954 YOUR LIFE?

01:05 - 59.255 >> WELL, THAT'S A VERY BROAD

01:05 - 02.258 QUESTION.

01:06 - 11.000 I LEARNED THAT YOU HAVE TO SHAKE

01:06 - 14.437 A LOT OF HANDS, THAT YOU HAVE TO

01:06 - 16.105 BE WILLING TO GET UP VERY EARLY

01:06 - 18.107 IN THE MORNING TO BE AT THE

01:06 - 22.545 PLANT GATES AT 5:30, THAT YOU

01:06 - 28.985 HAVE TO HAVE A LOT OF BRAVADO TO

01:06 - 30.686 BOARD THE SUBWAY TRAIN AND GO

01:06 - 32.755 THROUGH THE MOVING TRAIN,

01:06 - 35.992 SHAKING EVERY HAND YOU CAN FIND,

01:06 - 37.126 AND WHEN SOME PEOPLE ARE

01:06 - 39.862 UNRESPONSIVE, NOT TO LET IT

01:06 - 43.499 BOTHER YOU, BUT TO SMILE AND TO

01:06 - 50.606 MOVE ON, AND TO ANSWER A LOT OF

01:06 - 53.275 QUESTIONS, A LOT OF PERSONAL

01:06 - 00.816 QUESTIONS, AND TO STUDY AND FIND

01:07 - 03.552 OUT THE INSIDE OF CITY

01:07 - 04.887 GOVERNMENT -- I'D BEEN AN

01:07 - 06.622 ASSISTANT D.A. FOR FOUR YEARS,

01:07 - 08.824 SO I KNEW HOW THE OFFICE

01:07 - 10.926 OPERATED --

01:07 - 13.996 AND TO BE GUTSY AND

01:07 - 16.399 TO SPEAK MY MIND.

01:07 - 17.466 AND IF THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO

01:07 - 22.304 DIDN'T LIKE WHAT I SAID, WELL,

01:07 - 22.838 SORRY.

01:07 - 25.541 I DON'T WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE

01:07 - 27.209 UNHAPPY, BUT I WAS GONNA SAY

01:07 - 30.780 WHAT I THOUGHT WAS RIGHT.

01:07 - 34.083 AND I LEARNED THE IMPORTANCE OF

01:07 - 36.118 NOT MAKING ANY DEALS, NO

01:07 - 42.324 COMMITMENTS, NO FAVORITISM.

01:07 - 46.195 LATER, FOR EXAMPLE,

01:07 - 48.364 MORTON WITKIN WANTED A CASE

01:07 - 51.233 DISMISSED WHICH OTHERS IN THE

01:07 - 52.401 OFFICE THOUGHT WOULD HAVE BEEN

01:07 - 54.070 DISMISSED, AND I WOULDN'T GO FOR

01:07 - 56.539 IT AND WASN'T GONNA SHOW ANY

01:07 - 00.176 FAVORITISM OR PARTIALITY.

01:08 - 01.577 DURING THE LATTER STAGES OF A

01:08 - 04.213 CAMPAIGN, I WAS ON THE SOUND

01:08 - 07.716 TRUCK, AND A MAN HANDED THREE

01:08 - 10.920 $100 BILLS AS A CAMPAIGN

01:08 - 12.488 CONTRIBUTION.

01:08 - 15.024 I PROMPTLY GAVE THEM TO THE CITY

01:08 - 16.592 TREASURER, PROBABLY THE ONLY GUY

01:08 - 19.428 THAT HANDLED CASH THAT IN

01:08 - 21.897 PHILADELPHIA IN A LONG TIME, IF

01:08 - 24.733 EVER.

01:08 - 26.068 THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS

01:08 - 30.239 WHICH COME READILY TO MIND.

01:08 - 31.440 >> WHEN DID YOU LEARN THAT YOU

01:08 - 34.076 WON, THAT YOU HAD WON THE RACE

01:08 - 38.714 FOR D.A.?

01:08 - 39.849 >> WHEN THE ELECTION RETURNS

01:08 - 41.884 CAME IN ON ELECTION NIGHT.

01:08 - 51.427 I HAD A SENSE OF IT AS EARLY

01:08 - 55.564 RETURNS CAME IN, BUT I DIDN'T

01:08 - 58.400 KNOW UNTIL THE RETURNS WERE IN.

01:08 - 00.102 >> ONCE YOU WERE ELECTED, WHAT

01:09 - 01.604 WAS YOUR RELATIONSHIP LIKE WITH

01:09 - 04.707 THE MAYOR JAMES TATE?

01:09 - 07.943 >> THORNY.

01:09 - 15.751 MAYOR TATE WAS A VERY DIFFICULT

01:09 - 18.420 GUY TO DEAL WITH UNDER THE BEST

01:09 - 21.423 OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

01:09 - 24.593 AND HE RAN A CITY ORGANIZATION

01:09 - 31.867 WHICH WAS SUSPECT.

01:09 - 35.771 THE GRAND JURY IN 1963 FOUND A

01:09 - 37.373 SINISTER CONNECTION BETWEEN THE

01:09 - 40.042 SALE OF ZONING LEGISLATION AND

01:09 - 43.312 THE DEMOCRATIC CITY COMMITTEE.

01:09 - 46.749 I CAME VERY CLOSE TO INDICTING

01:09 - 49.952 MAYOR TATE ON A CASE INVOLVING

01:09 - 54.190 THE POOR AND, IN FACT, ISSUED A

01:09 - 58.961 REPORT AT 8:00 ON THE ELECTION

01:09 - 01.363 NIGHT OF THE RACE FOR MAYOR WHEN

01:10 - 03.999 I RAN AGAINST HIM.

01:10 - 07.469 HE WAS APPREHENSIVE, AND

01:10 - 12.274 PROPERLY SO, THAT I MIGHT BE A

01:10 - 14.543 CANDIDATE AGAINST HIM IN THE

01:10 - 16.512 MAYOR'S RACE, WHICH WAS UP TWO

01:10 - 17.780 YEARS LATER, AND HE WOULD BE

01:10 - 23.686 RUNNING FOR A SECOND FULL TERM.

01:10 - 29.558 AND WHEN I WAS IN OFFICE, HE

01:10 - 32.094 OPPOSED MY BUDGET REQUEST.

01:10 - 34.663 WE NEEDED MORE ASSISTANT D.A.s,

01:10 - 35.497 DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH.

01:10 - 38.467 IT WAS ONLY AFTER I WAS

01:10 - 41.737 RE-ELECTED AND HIS TERM WAS NEAR

01:10 - 46.075 AN END IN 1971 THAT HE AGREED TO

01:10 - 47.176 EXPAND THE OFFICE.

01:10 - 48.911 BUT WE HAD AN ENORMOUS EXPANSION

01:10 - 53.182 OF THE OFFICE FOR 53 ASSISTANT

01:10 - 55.918 D.A.s TO ABOUT 170.

01:10 - 57.419 AND HE HAD KEPT THE LID ON THAT

01:10 - 00.256 FOR A LONG TIME BECAUSE THE

01:11 - 02.758 RELATIONS WERE NOT GOOD.

01:11 - 03.859 >> WHO WERE SOME OF THE NOTABLE

01:11 - 04.960 PEOPLE THAT WORKED FOR YOU IN

01:11 - 08.797 THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE?

01:11 - 10.766 MY FIRST ASSISTANT,

01:11 - 15.204 DICK SPRAGUE, WAS AN OUTSTANDING

01:11 - 17.039 PROSECUTOR.

01:11 - 18.641 HE HAD BEEN IN THE OFFICE WHEN I

01:11 - 20.342 JOINED, HAD BEEN CHIEF OF THE

01:11 - 23.245 HOMICIDE DIVISION, AND I MADE

01:11 - 24.780 HIM FIRST ASSISTANT.

01:11 - 27.950 AND HE'S HAD AN OUTSTANDING

01:11 - 30.052 CAREER IN PHILADELPHIA FOR

01:11 - 33.222 DECADES, GOOD FRIEND OF MINE AS

01:11 - 41.363 WE TALK TODAY ON JUNE 28th OF

01:11 - 42.965 2011.

01:11 - 44.400 WHO KNOWS WHEN THIS IS GONNA BE

01:11 - 46.535 SHOWN OR HOW MANY TIMES IT'LL BE

01:11 - 49.071 SEEN?

01:11 - 53.108 AND ED RENDELL WAS A NOTABLE

01:11 - 53.942 ASSISTANT D.A.

01:11 - 56.478 HE SINCE BECAME D.A. HIMSELF,

01:11 - 59.214 MAYOR, AND GOVERNOR.

01:11 - 01.083 RON CASTILLE WAS AN ASSISTANT

01:12 - 01.684 D.A.

01:12 - 04.153 HE SINCE -- IS NOW THE CHIEF

01:12 - 05.587 JUSTICE OF THE STATE SUPREME

01:12 - 07.323 COURT.

01:12 - 12.227 ASSISTANT D.A. PAUL MICHEL WAS

01:12 - 14.463 TERRIFIC, KNEW MORE ABOUT

01:12 - 16.165 MOTIONS AND CRIMINAL LAW THAN,

01:12 - 19.368 I THINK, ANYBODY IN THE COUNTRY

01:12 - 22.004 DURING VERY HECTIC DAYS WHEN A

01:12 - 23.672 LOT OF BIG DECISIONS WERE COMING

01:12 - 24.006 DOWN.

01:12 - 27.176 AND HE WAS LATER THE CHIEF OF

01:12 - 29.178 STAFF OF MY SENATE OFFICE, AND I

01:12 - 31.480 RECOMMENDED HIM TO THE FEDERAL

01:12 - 32.915 CIRCUIT COURT, WHICH IS A

01:12 - 34.783 CIRCUIT COURT A GREAT

01:12 - 36.985 DISTINCTIONS AND PATENT APPEALS

01:12 - 39.054 AND COMPLEX MATTERS.

01:12 - 40.723 AND HE BECAME THE CHIEF JUDGE,

01:12 - 42.991 WHICH IS THE EQUIVALENT OF A

01:12 - 44.693 CHIEF JUSTICE OF A STATE SUPREME

01:12 - 46.295 COURT.

01:12 - 49.398 JIM FITZGERALD BECAME A STATE

01:12 - 50.866 SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.

01:12 - 54.603 AND BONNIE LEADBETTER BECAME

01:12 - 55.704 PRESIDENT JUDGE OF THE

01:12 - 56.839 COMMONWEALTH COURT.

01:12 - 01.043 AND MANY OTHER JUDGES AND MANY

01:13 - 02.544 OTHER PROMINENT ATTORNEYS, THREE

01:13 - 06.148 COLLEGE PRESIDENTS -- A

01:13 - 09.752 DISTINGUISHED ALUMNI SOCIETY.

01:13 - 11.286 >> GOVERNOR ED RENDELL COMMENTED

01:13 - 12.888 THAT HE WORKED FOR YOU FOR

01:13 - 13.822 SOMETHING LIKE SEVEN YEARS

01:13 - 14.423 WITHOUT YOU KNOWING HIS

01:13 - 16.225 POLITICAL AFFILIATION.

01:13 - 18.694 >> HE'S WRONG ABOUT THAT.

01:13 - 21.530 IT WAS EIGHT YEARS.

01:13 - 23.098 WHEN MY TERM WAS ENDING AS

01:13 - 26.568 DISTRICT ATTORNEY, IN DECEMBER

01:13 - 31.306 1973, HE AND I WERE RIDING DOWN

01:13 - 34.276 AT THE SOUTHWEST CORNER, WHERE

01:13 - 37.679 WE HAD THE ELEVATOR CLOSEST TO

01:13 - 39.915 THE OFFICE.

01:13 - 40.849 AND I SAID, "WELL, ED, WHAT ARE

01:13 - 42.117 YOU GONNA DO?

01:13 - 42.885 ARE YOU GONNA STAY ON?"

01:13 - 43.585 HE SAYS, "NO, I'M LEAVING THE

01:13 - 45.454 OFFICE, ARLEN."

01:13 - 46.989 I SAID, "WELL, WHAT DO YOU PLAN

01:13 - 47.322 TO DO?"

01:13 - 48.290 HE SAID, "OH, I'M GONNA GET INTO

01:13 - 49.391 POLITICS."

01:13 - 51.460 AND I SAID, "OH, WELL, I'LL

01:13 - 54.196 INTRODUCE YOU TO BILLY MEEHAN."

01:13 - 56.865 BILL WAS THE REPUBLICAN LEADER.

01:13 - 59.001 AND RENDELL LOOKED DOWN AT SHOES

01:13 - 00.502 SHEEPISHLY AND SHUFFLED A

01:14 - 02.704 LITTLE, AND HE SAID -- WHEN I

01:14 - 03.705 SAID, "I'LL INTRODUCE YOU TO

01:14 - 05.040 BILL MEEHAN, THE REPUBLICAN

01:14 - 06.942 LEADER," HE SAID, "ARLEN, I'M A

01:14 - 08.710 DEMOCRAT."

01:14 - 10.679 AND I HADN'T KNOWN OR HADN'T

01:14 - 12.014 CARED.

01:14 - 15.717 BUT THAT'S HOW I FOUND OUT.

01:14 - 17.553 LYNNE ABRAHAM, WHO LATER BECAME

01:14 - 19.054 D.A. HERSELF, WAS ONE OF MY

01:14 - 23.392 ASSISTANTS, A TOUGH COOKIE, AS

01:14 - 26.795 FRANK RIZZO GAVE HER A NICKNAME.

01:14 - 28.096 SHE WAS MARRIED TO FRANK FORD,

01:14 - 33.702 WHO WAS A POPULAR RADIO-SHOW

01:14 - 34.870 HOST.

01:14 - 37.573 AND SHE WAS A DEMOCRAT.

01:14 - 40.542 AND FRANK FORD USED TO TALK ALL

01:14 - 42.644 THE TIME ABOUT WHAT A GREAT WASH

01:14 - 43.645 IN THE D.A.'s OFFICE THAT

01:14 - 44.646 ARLEN SPECTER DIDN'T HAVE

01:14 - 48.350 POLITICAL CONNECTIONS AS A

01:14 - 50.986 PREREQUISITE TO BECOMING AN

01:14 - 53.121 ASSISTANT D.A.

01:14 - 55.891 DIDN'T MATTER TO ME.

01:14 - 56.992 >> WHAT WERE YOUR STAFF MEETINGS

01:14 - 59.394 LIKE WITH YOUR ASSISTANTS?

01:14 - 02.531 >> WELL, YOU OUGHT TO ASK THEM.

01:15 - 06.702 THEY WERE RIGOROUS.

01:15 - 08.804 EVERY DAY, I HAD A MEETING AT

01:15 - 10.973 5:00.

01:15 - 12.908 AND WE'D GO OVER EVERY CASE ON

01:15 - 13.375 THE LIST.

01:15 - 14.676 AT THAT TIME, WE HAD 12

01:15 - 17.179 COURTROOMS, AND EACH COURTROOM

01:15 - 18.881 HAD ABOUT 12 CASES.

01:15 - 22.217 THESE WERE LIST ROOMS.

01:15 - 24.853 AND I WANTED TO KNOW WHAT

01:15 - 27.189 HAPPENED IN EVERY CASE.

01:15 - 30.158 WE HAD A VERY BIG BACKLOG.

01:15 - 34.496 AND WE HAD LENIENT SENTENCING.

01:15 - 36.598 WE HAD A LOT OF CONTINUANCES.

01:15 - 38.534 AND I WANTED TO KNOW WHAT

01:15 - 40.469 HAPPENED.

01:15 - 44.206 IF THE CASE WAS CONTINUED, I

01:15 - 46.208 WANTED TO KNOW WHY.

01:15 - 47.643 AND IF A WITNESS WASN'T THERE, I

01:15 - 48.710 WANTED TO KNOW WHAT EFFORT WAS

01:15 - 51.113 MADE TO GET THE WITNESS IN.

01:15 - 52.214 WHEN THE TIME CAME FOR

01:15 - 53.415 SENTENCING, I WANTED THE

01:15 - 55.150 ASSISTANT D.A. TO MAKE A

01:15 - 57.052 RECOMMENDATION.

01:15 - 58.554 THE PRACTICE HAD BEEN TO SAY,

01:15 - 59.855 "LEAVE IT TO THE DISCRETION OF

01:15 - 00.389 THE COURT."

01:16 - 02.958 WELL, I THOUGHT THE COMMONWEALTH

01:16 - 04.226 HAD AN INTEREST IN WHAT THE

01:16 - 06.328 SENTENCE WAS, AND I WANTED THE

01:16 - 08.664 SENTENCE RECOMMENDATION.

01:16 - 11.633 AND THEY WERE VERY STERN,

01:16 - 14.937 STRONG, INCISIVE MEETINGS.

01:16 - 20.275 45 YEARS HAVE PASSED SINCE THOSE

01:16 - 21.743 STAFF MEETINGS, AND ASSISTANTS

01:16 - 24.813 ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT THEM.

01:16 - 30.152 AND I WANTED THEM TO PREFER TO

01:16 - 31.553 FIGHT WITH A JUDGE THAN TO FIGHT

01:16 - 32.654 WITH ME.

01:16 - 35.023 AND THAT WORD SOON GOT ACROSS.

01:16 - 39.027 AND WE DID A LOT TO CHANGE THE

01:16 - 40.729 WAY THE CRIMINAL COURTS WERE RUN

01:16 - 42.864 IN THE CITY.

01:16 - 44.266 I WENT TO THE CHIEF JUSTICE,

01:16 - 46.735 JOHN BELL.

01:16 - 48.170 COURT HOURS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE

01:16 - 49.771 FROM 10:00 TO 12:30 AND 2:00 TO

01:16 - 50.839 4:00.

01:16 - 52.774 AND THE JUDGES WOULD USUALLY

01:16 - 55.711 COME IN ABOUT 5 OF 11:00 AND

01:16 - 58.347 LEAVE AT ABOUT 12:10.

01:16 - 00.082 THEY'D COME BACK AT ABOUT 2:40

01:17 - 04.653 AND LEAVE AT 3:25.

01:17 - 09.324 AND I SENT A DETECTIVE IN TO

01:17 - 11.226 MARK DOWN THE TIME WHEN THEY'D

01:17 - 14.863 COME IN, LEAVE.

01:17 - 16.698 NOT TOO LONG AFTER I DID THAT,

01:17 - 18.367 RIGHT AT THE START OF MY TERM --

01:17 - 19.067 'CAUSE I'D BEEN THERE.

01:17 - 20.802 I KNEW WHAT IT WAS LIKE.

01:17 - 22.270 WE HAD A JUDGE WHO HAD HIS

01:17 - 24.172 OFFICE -- PRIVATE OFFICE.

01:17 - 27.576 WE HAD AN ASSISTANT D.A. WHO HAD

01:17 - 29.378 HIS OFFICE IN TWO PENN CENTER

01:17 - 31.013 PLAZA.

01:17 - 33.682 AND HE WOULD WAIT TILL THE TIP

01:17 - 35.283 STAFF CALLED HIM, AND HE'D RUSH

01:17 - 40.055 OVER A FEW MINUTES BEFORE 11:00.

01:17 - 42.424 SO, THEY'D LEAVE EARLY AND COME

01:17 - 43.892 LATE.

01:17 - 45.494 SO I HAD THE DETECTIVES GO IN

01:17 - 46.695 AND MARK DOWN THE TIMES.

01:17 - 50.098 SOON AFTER I BECAME D.A., I GOT

01:17 - 51.233 A CALL FROM A COURTROOM.

01:17 - 53.502 A JUDGE HELD A DETECTIVE IN

01:17 - 55.537 CONTEMPT OF COURT FOR WRITING

01:17 - 57.272 DOWN THE TIMES.

01:17 - 59.841 SO I WENT DOWN, AND I SAID,

01:17 - 02.377 "JUDGE, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

01:18 - 03.478 IF YOU'RE GONNA HOLD ANYBODY IN

01:18 - 04.613 CONTEMPT OF COURT, YOU GOT TO

01:18 - 05.981 HOLD ME IN CONTEMPT OF COURT.

01:18 - 07.182 HE'S ACTING ON MY ORDERS.

01:18 - 08.283 BUT YOU CAN'T HOLD ME IN

01:18 - 09.518 CONTEMPT, EITHER.

01:18 - 10.252 IT'S OPEN COURT.

01:18 - 11.586 ANYBODY CAN COME HERE AND WRITE

01:18 - 13.555 DOWN ANYTHING THEY WANT AND

01:18 - 14.856 OBSERVE ANYTHING THEY WANT.

01:18 - 16.158 THIS IS AN OPEN COURT.

01:18 - 17.859 THIS IS AMERICA."

01:18 - 20.429 AND THE JUDGES STARTED TO

01:18 - 22.597 IMPROVE A LITTLE, BUT NOT

01:18 - 22.998 ENOUGH.

01:18 - 24.433 SO, AS I WAS STARTING TO SAY, I

01:18 - 25.934 GOT THE CHIEF JUSTICE, JOHN

01:18 - 27.836 BELL, TO ISSUE AN ORDER --

01:18 - 31.306 "COURT WILL BE 9:30 TO 5:00."

01:18 - 37.379 SO, WE TRIED TO CHANGE THINGS

01:18 - 39.414 AROUND A BIT.

01:18 - 40.849 >> WHAT OTHER ACCOMPLISHMENTS DO

01:18 - 42.484 YOU THINK ARE NOTABLE DURING

01:18 - 43.351 YOUR TENURE AS DISTRICT

01:18 - 46.354 ATTORNEY?

01:18 - 47.422 WELL, THE OFFICE WAS

01:18 - 51.393 PROFESSIONALIZED, TO START WITH.

01:18 - 53.028 ASSISTANT D.A.s HAD BEEN

01:18 - 54.262 PERMITTED TO HAVE A PRIVATE

01:18 - 55.764 PRACTICE.

01:18 - 57.632 EVEN THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY HAD A

01:18 - 00.135 PRIVATE PRACTICE.

01:19 - 02.137 MY PREDECESSOR, VIC BLANC, WHO

01:19 - 04.372 WAS D.A. WHEN I BECAME AN

01:19 - 06.942 ASSISTANT, HAD A PHONE ON HIS

01:19 - 08.443 DESK THAT WENT TO HIS PRIVATE

01:19 - 09.010 LAW OFFICE.

01:19 - 13.415 THEY'D CALL UP JONES AND BLANC,

01:19 - 14.549 AND THE RECEPTIONIST WOULD

01:19 - 15.050 ANSWER THE PHONE.

01:19 - 17.018 "I WANT TO SPEAK TO MR. BLANC."

01:19 - 17.786 THEY'D PUT HIM THROUGH, AND HE

01:19 - 18.854 WAS SITTING IN THE D.A.'s

01:19 - 20.555 OFFICE, AND HE'D CONDUCT HIS

01:19 - 21.957 PRIVATE PRACTICE."

01:19 - 26.928 SO, ASSISTANTS HAD TO BE FULL

01:19 - 28.663 TIME.

01:19 - 31.800 SECOND THING WAS TO SEE TO IT

01:19 - 34.169 THAT THE COURTS WORKED A FULL

01:19 - 35.637 DAY.

01:19 - 38.306 THE THIRD THING WAS TO END ANY

01:19 - 42.410 POLITICAL INFLUENCE IN THE TRIAL

01:19 - 47.649 OF CASES.

01:19 - 49.851 ANOTHER FACTOR WAS TO IMPROVE

01:19 - 52.187 THE QUALITY OF THE WORK WE DID

01:19 - 53.588 IN THE APPELLATE COURTS --

01:19 - 59.995 BETTER BRIEFS, ACTIVITY ON THE

01:19 - 01.329 LEGISLATIVE FRONT.

01:20 - 03.365 I TOOK A STAND OPPOSED TO

01:20 - 04.332 WIRETAPPING.

01:20 - 08.537 I AGREED WITH JUSTICE HOLMES,

01:20 - 10.772 WHO SAID -- PERHAPS IT WAS

01:20 - 12.440 BRANDEIS -- THAT WIRETAPPING WAS

01:20 - 13.942 DIRTY BUSINESS.

01:20 - 15.911 I WAS THE ONLY ONE OF THE 67

01:20 - 18.380 D.A.s IN THE COUNTY TO DO THAT,

01:20 - 21.116 BUT I TOOK THAT STAND.

01:20 - 24.619 I WOULD DEMAND JURY TRIALS IN

01:20 - 25.086 CASES.

01:20 - 27.189 THE COMMONWEALTH HAD THE RIGHT.

01:20 - 28.857 AND IN THE PAST, THE D.A. WOULD

01:20 - 29.724 NEVER DO THAT.

01:20 - 31.927 THEY'D TAKE A WAIVER AND LET THE

01:20 - 35.030 JUDGE DECIDE THE CASE.

01:20 - 38.066 BUT THE JUDGES WERE TOO LENIENT,

01:20 - 40.368 AND I WOULD FIGHT WITH THEM.

01:20 - 42.304 THE STATE SUPREME COURT CHANGED

01:20 - 45.407 THE RULES, TOOK AWAY THE D.A.s

01:20 - 47.042 RIGHT TO DEMAND A JURY TRIAL.

01:20 - 47.742 LATER, THERE WAS A

01:20 - 49.911 CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO PUT

01:20 - 50.846 IT BACK IN EFFECT.

01:20 - 55.550 BUT THAT WAS A STRONG APPROACH.

01:20 - 58.386 WE HAD A BIG BACKLOG, 30,000

01:20 - 01.723 CASES A YEAR, 500 HOMICIDES.

01:21 - 04.092 ONE DAY, ONE OF MY KEY

01:21 - 05.894 ASSISTANTS, A VERY ABLE YOUNG

01:21 - 09.297 MAN NAMED ALAN DAVIS, CAME TO ME

01:21 - 11.099 AND SAID, "ARLEN, I JUST HAD

01:21 - 15.103 LUNCH WITH A CHIEF DEFENDER.

01:21 - 17.472 WE'VE GOT AN IDEA WHICH I THINK

01:21 - 19.674 YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN.

01:21 - 21.409 INSTEAD OF TRYING ALL THESE

01:21 - 23.411 MINOR CASES, FIRST OFFENDERS, ON

01:21 - 24.913 NONVIOLENT CRIMES, WHY DON'T WE

01:21 - 26.748 TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT?

01:21 - 27.782 WHY DON'T WE BRING THEM IN

01:21 - 29.584 BEFORE A JUDGE ON AN INFORMAL

01:21 - 33.455 BASIS AND HAVE A PROGRAM, A

01:21 - 35.023 PRE-INDICTMENT PROBATION?

01:21 - 37.359 BEFORE THEY'RE INDICTED, SAY TO

01:21 - 39.694 THE PERSON, 'THIS IS MINOR, A

01:21 - 41.129 FIRST OFFENSE.

01:21 - 42.564 IF YOU STAY OUT OF TROUBLE FOR A

01:21 - 44.733 YEAR, WE'LL EXPUNGE YOUR RECORD.

01:21 - 46.134 IF YOU GET INTO TROUBLE, WE'RE

01:21 - 50.839 GONNA BRING THIS RECORD AND TRY

01:21 - 53.074 YOU ON THE SECOND OFFENSE'"

01:21 - 54.009 AND I SAID,

01:21 - 56.044 "THAT'S A GOOD IDEA.

01:21 - 58.880 I'LL DO IT."

01:21 - 00.515 AND TO PUT THAT IN EFFECT -- IT

01:22 - 02.317 WAS REALLY A MAJOR CHANGE -- I

01:22 - 04.452 FELT WE HAD TO HAVE PERMISSION

01:22 - 05.887 FROM THE STATE SUPREME COURT.

01:22 - 08.123 AND I WENT TO TALK TO THE SEVEN

01:22 - 10.025 STATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES,

01:22 - 13.795 AND THEY AGREED.

01:22 - 16.564 AND WE PUT IT INTO EFFECT.

01:22 - 18.867 AND IT WAS SO SUCCESSFUL, IT

01:22 - 21.770 TOOK 7,500 CASES OUT OF THE

01:22 - 24.239 30,000 BACKLOG.

01:22 - 26.708 AND LATER, IT WAS ADOPTED BY THE

01:22 - 29.144 STATE SUPREME COURT AS A RULE OF

01:22 - 31.313 CRIMINAL PROCEDURE CALLED

01:22 - 33.114 ACCELERATED REHABILITATIVE

01:22 - 35.483 DISPOSITION, A.R.D.

01:22 - 36.685 IT'S ON THE BOOKS TODAY.

01:22 - 39.821 IT BECAME A NATIONAL MODEL AS AN

01:22 - 43.458 ALTERNATIVE DISPUTE RESOLUTION.

01:22 - 45.393 IN PROFESSIONALIZING THE OFFICE,

01:22 - 48.063 I ALSO WENT OUT TO THE MAJOR LAW

01:22 - 49.497 FIRMS AND TALKED TO THEIR

01:22 - 51.433 MANAGING PARTNERS TO PERSUADE

01:22 - 54.202 THEM TO LEND ME ASSISTANT D.A.s

01:22 - 57.038 FOR TWO YEARS -- YOUNGER LAWYERS

01:22 - 00.875 WHO HAD LITTLE EXPERIENCE, SAY,

01:23 - 02.844 THREE OR FOUR YEARS OUT OF LAW

01:23 - 04.179 SCHOOL.

01:23 - 05.547 BUT YOU DON'T GET MUCH TRIAL

01:23 - 08.016 PRACTICE IN THE BIG FIRMS.

01:23 - 09.551 COME TO THE D.A.'S OFFICE FOR A

01:23 - 10.785 MINIMUM OF TWO YEARS.

01:23 - 12.821 AND I RECRUITED SOME REALLY

01:23 - 15.390 TOP-NOTCH PEOPLE LIKE ALAN DAVIS

01:23 - 17.826 FROM THE WOLF FIRM, LIKE MARTIN

01:23 - 19.461 HECKSCHER FROM DUANE, MORRIS &

01:23 - 20.795 HECKSCHER.

01:23 - 22.464 JIM FITZGERALD LATER BECAME A

01:23 - 24.132 STATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE,

01:23 - 27.969 FROM MONTGOMERY McCRACKEN, AND

01:23 - 31.506 ARTHUR MAKADON, LATER THE

01:23 - 33.208 MANAGING PARTNER OF THE BALLARD

01:23 - 33.942 OFFICE.

01:23 - 39.647 AND MANY VERY FINE YOUNG LAWYERS

01:23 - 43.385 CAME OVER FOR TWO YEARS.

01:23 - 44.652 DURING YOUR TENURE AS D.A., YOU

01:23 - 45.954 ALSO PLACED AN EMPHASIS ON

01:23 - 47.622 MAKING SURE THAT CRIMES OF RAPE

01:23 - 48.656 WERE TREATED SERIOUSLY.

01:23 - 50.725 HOW WERE THEY TREATED PRIOR TO

01:23 - 52.060 THAT?

01:23 - 52.794 >> RAPE?

01:23 - 55.530 >> MM-HMM.

01:23 - 59.334 >> WELL, THERE WAS NEVER AN

01:23 - 02.670 ADEQUATE EFFORT MADE ON

01:24 - 04.939 GATHERING EVIDENCE.

01:24 - 09.010 FOR EXAMPLE, A RAPE VICTIM WOULD

01:24 - 12.147 BE QUESTIONED IN A POLICE

01:24 - 16.184 STATION WHERE HALF A DOZEN

01:24 - 18.386 DETECTIVES SAT.

01:24 - 20.722 AND WHEN SHE STARTED TO TALK TO

01:24 - 23.658 A DETECTIVE ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE

01:24 - 24.926 SHE HAD JUST BEEN PUT THROUGH,

01:24 - 28.897 THERE WERE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO

01:24 - 31.199 WERE LISTENING TO HER.

01:24 - 33.368 AND IT WAS NO WAY TO INTERVIEW A

01:24 - 33.902 WITNESS.

01:24 - 35.904 YOU COULDN'T REALLY GET THE

01:24 - 36.404 FACTS.

01:24 - 40.408 SO, I MADE SURE THAT THE VICTIMS

01:24 - 43.878 IN RAPE CASES WERE QUESTIONED

01:24 - 44.512 PRIVATELY.

01:24 - 48.116 THEN THEY DID NOT GATHER

01:24 - 53.621 EVIDENCE SUCH AS BRUISES OR

01:24 - 56.691 BRUSHINGS FOR HAIR FOLLICLES.

01:24 - 00.028 AND ALL OF THAT WAS CHANGED.

01:25 - 00.962 AND THERE WAS A DIFFERENT

01:25 - 04.332 ATTITUDE ON GETTING SPEEDY

01:25 - 06.835 LISTINGS ON THOSE CASES SO THEY

01:25 - 09.838 DIDN'T DAWDLE FOR YEARS.

01:25 - 12.507 AND EMPHASIS ON SENTENCES.

01:25 - 15.176 I BELIEVED IN TOUGH SENTENCES

01:25 - 17.245 FOR TOUGH CRIMINALS.

01:25 - 18.513 AND I MADE A POINT TO TRY THE

01:25 - 21.116 FIRST RAPE CASE MYSELF SHORTLY

01:25 - 23.952 AFTER I BECAME D.A., TO SHOW

01:25 - 25.019 THAT WERE WERE GONNA CRACK DOWN

01:25 - 29.057 ON RAPE.

01:25 - 30.692 >> IN 1966, BILLY MEEHAN HAD

01:25 - 31.759 ASKED YOU TO RUN FOR MAYOR

01:25 - 33.194 AGAINST JAMES TATE.

01:25 - 34.229 TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT

01:25 - 34.529 RACE.

01:25 - 36.664 WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

01:25 - 40.802 >> IN 1966, I HAD JUST TAKE

01:25 - 43.438 OFFICE AS DISTRICT ATTORNEY,

01:25 - 46.674 AFTER THE 1965 ELECTION.

01:25 - 48.643 AND TALK IMMEDIATELY TURNED TO

01:25 - 53.548 THE ELECTION FOR MAYOR IN 1967.

01:25 - 55.250 PHILADELPHIA WAS LOOKING FORWARD

01:25 - 01.156 TO THE BICENTENNIAL IN 1976.

01:26 - 03.591 MAYOR TATE HAD NOT DONE WELL.

01:26 - 05.693 HIS APPROVAL RATINGS WERE NOT

01:26 - 06.861 HIGH.

01:26 - 09.697 AND IMMEDIATELY AFTER I WAS

01:26 - 11.166 ELECTED ON THE REPUBLICAN

01:26 - 15.770 TICKET, TALK ROSE FOR ME TO

01:26 - 18.206 BECOME A CANDIDATE.

01:26 - 20.041 THE GREATER PHILADELPHIA

01:26 - 21.743 MOVEMENT WAS AN ORGANIZATION IN

01:26 - 23.411 PHILADELPHIA, REALLY THE MOVERS

01:26 - 25.046 AND SHAKERS.

01:26 - 26.614 AND THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AS A

01:26 - 28.850 MAN NAME BILL WILCOX.

01:26 - 32.787 AND IMMEDIATELY THEY STARTED TO

01:26 - 35.190 URGE ME TO BE A CANDIDATE FOR

01:26 - 36.558 MAYOR.

01:26 - 39.394 AND I GENUINELY DID NOT WANT TO

01:26 - 40.762 BE A CANDIDATE FOR MAYOR.

01:26 - 44.332 I'D JUST SERVED A YEAR AS

01:26 - 46.668 DISTRICT ATTORNEY WHEN WE MOVED

01:26 - 50.638 PAST NEW YEAR'S IN 1967.

01:26 - 56.544 BUT THE PROMOTERS WERE

01:26 - 58.813 PERSISTENT.

01:26 - 02.050 THEY HAD A DRAFT, WHICH WAS

01:27 - 03.518 REALLY AN UNUSUAL DRAFT.

01:27 - 05.486 I THINK IT'S WHAT YOU CALL AN

01:27 - 07.155 HONEST AND SINCERE DRAFT.

01:27 - 08.623 THEY HAD FULL-PAGE

01:27 - 10.658 ADVERTISEMENTS IN THE DAILY

01:27 - 12.293 NEWSPAPERS.

01:27 - 13.561 THE MOST PROMINENT PEOPLE IN

01:27 - 15.096 TOWN WERE URGING ME TO RUN.

01:27 - 17.232 BILL MEEHAN, THE PARTY LEADER,

01:27 - 19.601 WAS VERY ANXIOUS TO WIN THE

01:27 - 20.435 MAYOR'S RACE.

01:27 - 23.004 IT HAD A GREAT MANY JOBS, A LOT

01:27 - 26.307 OF PATRONAGE, AND VERY IMPORTANT

01:27 - 27.775 FOR THE CITY.

01:27 - 33.781 AND ULTIMATELY, I AGREED TO RUN.

01:27 - 35.984 I DID SO ON THE CONDITION THAT I

01:27 - 38.753 WAS NOT GONNA RESIGN AS DISTRICT

01:27 - 41.589 ATTORNEY, AND THAT CREATED QUITE

01:27 - 43.658 A PROBLEM BECAUSE THE

01:27 - 46.394 PHILADELPHIA CITY CHARTER SAID

01:27 - 49.097 THAT EVERY CITY OFFICER HAD TO

01:27 - 52.033 RESIGN IN ORDER TO RUN FOR

01:27 - 54.302 ANOTHER OFFICE.

01:27 - 56.771 I TOOK THE POSITION THAT I WAS A

01:27 - 59.173 STATE OFFICER AND, THEREFORE,

01:27 - 02.176 EXEMPT FROM THAT PROHIBITION.

01:28 - 05.480 AND THE RESULT WAS A SERIES OF

01:28 - 08.182 THREE HOTLY CONTESTED LEGAL

01:28 - 10.451 BATTLES THAT WERE DECIDED BY THE

01:28 - 12.120 SUPREME COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA

01:28 - 15.857 BETWEEN THE SPRING OF 1967 AND

01:28 - 17.759 THE FALL.

01:28 - 21.095 HE WON THE ELECTION BECAUSE HE

01:28 - 26.367 WAS VERY WELL-ORGANIZED.

01:28 - 28.102 PHILADELPHIA REMAINED,

01:28 - 30.838 ESSENTIALLY, A STRONG DEMOCRATIC

01:28 - 32.173 TOWN.

01:28 - 34.108 HE HAD A TOUGH PRIMARY OPPONENT

01:28 - 36.778 IN A MAN NAMED ALEXANDER

01:28 - 38.112 HEMPHILL, WHO WAS THE CITY

01:28 - 39.781 CONTROLLER.

01:28 - 41.149 AND HEMPHILL WAS BACKED BY A

01:28 - 42.817 DEMOCRATIC CITY COMMITTEE, SO

01:28 - 45.753 THAT WHEN THAT PRIMARY STARTED,

01:28 - 47.922 IT LOOKED LIKE HEMPHILL WAS THE

01:28 - 50.825 ODDS-ON FAVORITE TO WIN.

01:28 - 53.828 WHEN WE NEARED THE PRIMARY

01:28 - 57.131 ELECTION DATE, TATE PULLED A

01:28 - 00.134 VERY SHREWD MANEUVER.

01:29 - 02.236 HE HAD THE POLICE DEPARTMENT

01:29 - 04.372 RAID THE TAPROOMS OWNED BY A

01:29 - 07.075 GREAT MANY WARD LEADERS.

01:29 - 08.242 AND THAT BROUGHT THE WARD

01:29 - 12.246 LEADERS TO THEIR HEELS, AND HE

01:29 - 14.682 WON THE PRIMARY.

01:29 - 17.318 ON PRIMARY ELECTION NIGHT, THE

01:29 - 18.986 POLICE COMMISSIONER, A MAN NAMED

01:29 - 20.722 BILL, WAS SO DISGUSTED WITH WHAT

01:29 - 24.158 HAD HAPPENED THAT HE RESIGNED.

01:29 - 26.394 AND THAT LEFT AN OPENING FOR

01:29 - 29.397 MAYOR TATE TO APPOINT THE DEPUTY

01:29 - 30.698 COMMISSIONER, WHO WAS FRANK

01:29 - 33.334 RIZZO -- AND A VERY MAJOR

01:29 - 35.903 PERSONA ON THE SCENE -- TO

01:29 - 38.706 BECOME POLICE COMMISSIONER.

01:29 - 39.841 AND THAT FIGURED VERY

01:29 - 42.043 PROMINENTLY IN THE GENERAL

01:29 - 43.678 ELECTION.

01:29 - 45.513 THERE WERE A COUPLE OF BIG

01:29 - 48.082 ISSUES WHICH CAME UP IN THE

01:29 - 50.151 MAYOR'S RACE, AND ONE WAS A

01:29 - 52.220 LEGISLATION -- IT WAS CALLED

01:29 - 55.256 HOUSE BILL 36, PENDING IN THE

01:29 - 56.958 STATE LEGISLATURE, WHICH WOULD

01:29 - 59.494 HAVE PROVIDED AID TO PAROCHIAL

01:29 - 00.895 SCHOOLS.

01:30 - 04.766 AND I OPPOSED THE LEGISLATION ON

01:30 - 05.800 THE GROUND THAT IT WAS

01:30 - 07.535 UNCONSTITUTIONAL, THAT IT

01:30 - 10.138 VIOLATED SEPARATION OF CHURCH

01:30 - 11.706 AND STATE.

01:30 - 16.210 AND THAT CREATED AN ISSUE WHICH

01:30 - 19.447 MAYOR TATE CAPITALIZED ON IN A

01:30 - 21.015 BIG WAY.

01:30 - 22.984 MAYOR TATE WAS CATHOLIC.

01:30 - 25.386 HE HAD MADE THE FAMOUS THREE-"I"

01:30 - 28.956 TRIP DURING THE SUMMER --

01:30 - 31.793 IRELAND, ITALY, AND ISRAEL.

01:30 - 34.462 HE WAS ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE

01:30 - 37.565 LOCAL NEWSPAPERS WITH THE POPE.

01:30 - 40.368 AND THEN ON THE SUNDAY BEFORE

01:30 - 42.437 THE ELECTION, LITERATURE WAS

01:30 - 44.872 ACTUALLY CIRCULATED IN THE

01:30 - 46.841 CATHOLIC CHURCHES, URGING PEOPLE

01:30 - 51.746 TO VOTE FOR TATE AND AGAINST ME

01:30 - 54.882 BECAUSE OF MY OPPOSITION TO AID

01:30 - 56.918 TO PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS.

01:30 - 58.753 THE BILL ULTIMATELY PASSED AND

01:30 - 01.355 WAS DECLARED UNCONSTITUTIONAL BY

01:31 - 02.657 THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.

01:31 - 05.893 SO MY LEGAL ANALYSIS WAS

01:31 - 07.929 CORRECT, BUT IT WAS AN UNPOPULAR

01:31 - 10.231 THING TO DO IN A CITY LIKE

01:31 - 13.334 PHILADELPHIA, WHERE SO MANY

01:31 - 15.069 CHILDREN WENT TO PAROCHIAL

01:31 - 17.672 SCHOOLS FROM THEIR CATHOLIC

01:31 - 20.107 FAMILIES.

01:31 - 23.277 FRANK RIZZO WAS ALSO A MAJOR

01:31 - 26.013 FACTOR IN THE ELECTION.

01:31 - 29.350 FRANK RIZZO WAS A DOMINATING

01:31 - 33.621 FIGURE, 6'3", 240, LAW AND

01:31 - 37.825 ORDER, CAUGHT THE PUBLIC FANCY.

01:31 - 39.894 WE WORKED VERY CLOSELY TOGETHER

01:31 - 42.697 AS DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND POLICE

01:31 - 44.932 COMMISSION, EXCEPT WHEN THERE

01:31 - 46.968 WERE MATTERS OF POLICE BRUTALITY

01:31 - 50.705 AND I FELT COMPELLED TO ARREST

01:31 - 52.773 POLICEMEN FOR EXCESSIVE POLICE

01:31 - 54.141 FORCE.

01:31 - 55.443 >> YOU WERE INVESTIGATING POLICE

01:31 - 57.445 CORRUPTION AND POLICE BRUTALITY.

01:31 - 59.080 HOW BIG OF AN IMPACT DID THOSE

01:31 - 01.015 INVESTIGATIONS HAVE THROUGHOUT

01:32 - 02.617 THE CITY?

01:32 - 06.687 >> WELL, THE INVESTIGATIONS OF

01:32 - 09.824 POLICE CORRUPTION DID NOT OCCUR

01:32 - 11.592 IN 1967.

01:32 - 14.161 THEY OCCURRED LATER, IN THE TIME

01:32 - 18.132 FRAME 1970-1971.

01:32 - 21.202 THE ISSUE OF POLICE BRUTALITY

01:32 - 24.005 ALSO BECAME A MAJOR ISSUE LATER

01:32 - 25.006 ON.

01:32 - 29.544 BUT THE ISSUE OF COMMISSIONER

01:32 - 32.980 RIZZO WAS FRONT AND CENTER

01:32 - 34.715 BECAUSE I WAS ASKED IF I WOULD

01:32 - 36.217 RETAIN HIM AS POLICE

01:32 - 37.685 COMMISSIONER.

01:32 - 40.254 AND I REFUSED TO COMMIT MYSELF

01:32 - 43.257 TO KEEPING HIM ON AS POLICE

01:32 - 44.692 COMMISSIONER.

01:32 - 45.993 I DID NOT WANT TO OWE MY

01:32 - 48.229 ELECTION OR ANY PART OF IT TO

01:32 - 49.263 FRANK RIZZO.

01:32 - 51.832 HE WAS, AS I SAID, A DOMINATING

01:32 - 54.902 TYPE OF PERSONALITY.

01:32 - 57.972 TO DEAL WITH FRANK RIZZO, IF YOU

01:32 - 00.074 WERE ON EQUAL FOOTING, WASN'T

01:33 - 00.508 EASY.

01:33 - 02.643 AND I WAS GONNA MAINTAIN THAT

01:33 - 03.311 EQUAL FOOTING.

01:33 - 04.879 AND I WOULD NOT MAKE A

01:33 - 06.614 COMMITMENT TO KEEP RIZZO ON AS

01:33 - 08.249 POLICE COMMISSIONER.

01:33 - 10.151 FRANKLY, I WOULD HAVE KEPT HIM

01:33 - 11.319 ON AS POLICE COMMISSIONER

01:33 - 12.219 BECAUSE HE WAS A GOOD

01:33 - 13.888 COMMISSIONER.

01:33 - 15.356 BUT I THOUGHT THAT I SHOULD BE

01:33 - 18.526 FREE AS MAYOR, IF ELECTED, TO

01:33 - 20.127 MAKE THAT DECISIONS WHEN IT WAS

01:33 - 23.497 TIMELY AND RELEVANT.

01:33 - 24.532 >> WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM

01:33 - 26.033 PARTICIPATING IN THAT MAYORAL

01:33 - 28.336 CAMPAIGN?

01:33 - 29.604 >> WELL, I LEARNED A GREAT MANY

01:33 - 30.237 THINGS.

01:33 - 33.407 IN A CAMPAIGN, THERE ARE LOTS OF

01:33 - 35.109 LESSONS.

01:33 - 37.378 ONE LESS WAS THAT YOU MAY BE

01:33 - 39.814 CORRECT ON THE LAW, BUT -- AID

01:33 - 41.015 TO PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS IS

01:33 - 43.584 UNCONSTITUTIONAL, BUT IT'S A

01:33 - 45.853 VERY SERIOUS POLICE IMPEDIMENT

01:33 - 48.422 TO TAKE THAT POSITION.

01:33 - 49.790 I COULD HAVE SAID, "WELL, THAT'S

01:33 - 51.025 A MATTER FOR THE GENERAL

01:33 - 52.293 ASSEMBLY.

01:33 - 54.662 I'M NOT GONNA VOTE ON IT.

01:33 - 56.063 I HAVE ENOUGH PROBLEMS AS

01:33 - 58.399 DISTRICT ATTORNEY, ENOUGH ISSUES

01:33 - 59.700 TO FACE FOR THE MAYOR.

01:33 - 02.436 LET THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY MAKE

01:34 - 05.006 THAT DECISION AND THEN LET THE

01:34 - 07.475 COURT MAKE THE DECISION.

01:34 - 10.478 I ALSO LEARNED HOW STRONG WARD

01:34 - 12.713 POLITICS WAS.

01:34 - 14.582 WHEN I WENT VOTE ON ELECTION

01:34 - 22.890 DAY, THERE WERE HALF A DOZEN BIG

01:34 - 26.594 MEN IN TOPCOATS AND HATS AT THE

01:34 - 27.595 ELECTION PLACE.

01:34 - 30.464 THEY WERE REALLY ON THE SCENE.

01:34 - 32.233 MAYOR TATE IS AN INCUMBENT, KNEW

01:34 - 37.038 HOW TO FLEX POLITICAL MUSCLES.

01:34 - 38.839 AND I CAMPAIGNED VERY HARD, AND

01:34 - 43.611 IT WAS A LEARNING EXPERIENCE.

01:34 - 45.513 LET'S MOVE ON NOW TO WHEN YOU

01:34 - 46.847 WERE UP FOR RE-ELECTION FOR

01:34 - 49.517 DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN 1969.

01:34 - 52.119 HOW DID THAT CAMPAIGN COMPARE TO

01:34 - 53.654 YOUR PRIOR RUN FOR DISTRICT

01:34 - 55.256 ATTORNEY?

01:34 - 58.325 >> WELL, THE 1969 RE-ELECTION

01:34 - 02.063 FOR D.A. WAS VERY DIFFERENT FROM

01:35 - 06.133 1965, WHEN I WAS CONTESTING THE

01:35 - 08.102 INCUMBENT.

01:35 - 10.204 I WAS IN OFFICE.

01:35 - 13.074 I WAS INVESTIGATING MUNICIPAL

01:35 - 14.709 CORRUPTION.

01:35 - 17.611 THERE HAS BEEN A GREAT STIGMA IN

01:35 - 20.381 PHILADELPHIA ABOUT CORRUPT

01:35 - 22.416 POLITICAL PRACTICES.

01:35 - 26.787 IN 1963, A FEW YEARS BACK, THE

01:35 - 28.889 GRAND JURY HAD FOUND A SINISTER

01:35 - 31.292 CONNECTION BETWEEN THE SALE OF

01:35 - 32.593 ZONING LEGISLATION AND

01:35 - 34.895 DEMOCRATIC CITY COMMITTEE.

01:35 - 37.431 AND I WAS INVESTIGATING THE

01:35 - 41.469 REDEVELOPMENT OF CENTER SQUARE.

01:35 - 44.004 THERE HAD BEEN A CONDEMNATION

01:35 - 46.574 PROCEEDING, TAKING A SQUARE

01:35 - 49.110 BLOCK FROM 15th TO 16th STREET,

01:35 - 52.213 FROM MARKET, I THINK, TO

01:35 - 55.349 RANSTEAD, THE FIRST SMALL STREET

01:35 - 57.351 SOUTH OF MARKET.

01:35 - 00.488 AND THE LAW REQUIRED THAT A BOND

01:36 - 02.990 BE POSTED WHEN YOU CONDEMN

01:36 - 04.525 PROPERTY AND A BOND IS TO BE

01:36 - 06.727 POSTED WHEN YOU TAKE SOMEBODY'S

01:36 - 07.194 PROPERTY.

01:36 - 08.429 THEY DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICE.

01:36 - 10.631 THEY HAVE TO SELL IT.

01:36 - 12.967 AND THEN THE PRICE IS DETERMINED

01:36 - 14.835 BY AN APPRAISER.

01:36 - 16.270 SO TO PROTECT THE PROPERTY

01:36 - 18.672 OWNER, THERE IS A BOND WHICH HAS

01:36 - 21.776 TO BE POSTED.

01:36 - 23.577 AND INSTEAD OF POSTING A BOND,

01:36 - 25.379 THE CHAIRMAN OF THE

01:36 - 28.149 REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY WAS

01:36 - 30.351 SATISFIED WITH THE

01:36 - 32.953 REPRESENTATION OF THE

01:36 - 34.855 CORPORATION DEVELOPING THE LAND,

01:36 - 37.224 NATIONAL LAND AND DEVELOPMENT

01:36 - 38.959 CORPORATION.

01:36 - 40.494 AND WHEN I INVESTIGATED IT, I

01:36 - 43.430 FOUND THAT THEY HAD A BOOK VALUE

01:36 - 45.266 OF LESS THAN $1 MILLION, ABOUT

01:36 - 48.302 $990,000.

01:36 - 49.837 THE MARKET VALUE OF THEIR STOCK

01:36 - 52.640 WAS ABOUT $2.5 MILLION.

01:36 - 53.774 AND THE REQUIREMENT FOR THE

01:36 - 56.310 POSTING OF A BOND WAS $16

01:36 - 56.744 MILLION.

01:36 - 59.780 AND AT THAT TIME, THE CHAIRMAN

01:36 - 02.116 OF THE PHILADELPHIA HOUSING

01:37 - 05.853 AUTHORITY WAS THE CHIEF

01:37 - 07.988 EXECUTIVE OFFICER OF ALBERT M.

01:37 - 09.924 GREENFIELD & SON.

01:37 - 13.093 AND THEY HAD A CONTRACT TO

01:37 - 15.162 DEVELOP THE LAND, WHICH WAS

01:37 - 18.699 WORTH $8 BILLION OVER A 10-YEAR

01:37 - 19.800 PERIOD.

01:37 - 20.868 >> IS IT EASIER TO RUN A

01:37 - 23.304 CAMPAIGN FOR RE-ELECTION, WHERE

01:37 - 26.106 YOU'RE BASICALLY TALKING ABOUT

01:37 - 28.275 YOUR PAST EXPERIENCES, AS

01:37 - 30.277 OPPOSED TO RUNNING FOR A NEW

01:37 - 32.913 OFFICE, STARTING ANEW?

01:37 - 39.620 >> WELL, IT IS EASIER TO RUN FOR

01:37 - 41.188 RE-ELECTION, FOR AN OFFICE YOU

01:37 - 43.724 HOLD, WHICH YOU'RE FAMILIAR

01:37 - 44.959 WITH.

01:37 - 46.927 SO, TO THAT EXTENT, RUNNING FOR

01:37 - 50.464 RE-ELECTION FOR D.A. IN 1969 WAS

01:37 - 52.733 EASIER THAN RUNNING FOR MAYOR,

01:37 - 54.568 WHICH POSED OTHER ISSUES.

01:37 - 56.470 BUT I WOULD NOT SAY THAT THE

01:37 - 58.339 DIFFERENCES WERE ENORMOUS OR

01:37 - 00.808 REALLY MATERIAL.

01:38 - 02.610 >> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT

01:38 - 04.178 TOM GOLA, WHOM YOU SHARED A

01:38 - 05.312 TICKET WITH FOR THAT PARTICULAR

01:38 - 06.213 RACE.

01:38 - 07.915 >> WELL, TOM GOLA WAS A GREAT

01:38 - 12.620 GUY AND A GREAT BASKETBALL STAR.

01:38 - 14.521 HE HAD PLAYED FOR LA SALLE AND

01:38 - 16.156 WAS AN ALL-AMERICAN BASKETBALL

01:38 - 18.926 PLAYER AND LED LA SALLE TO A

01:38 - 21.528 NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, AS I

01:38 - 23.364 RECOLLECT.

01:38 - 24.965 THEN HE HAD BEEN IN THE STATE

01:38 - 27.067 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AT A

01:38 - 29.136 TIME WHEN HE WAS UP FOR

01:38 - 31.105 CONTROLLER, AND HE'D ALSO BEEN

01:38 - 32.873 THE COACH OF THE LA SALLE TEAM.

01:38 - 35.442 AND MY RECOLLECTION IS THEY HAD

01:38 - 37.878 A RECORD OF 32 WINS AND 1

01:38 - 40.714 LOSSES, SO HE WAS A LOCAL HERO.

01:38 - 45.819 HE WAS 6'7" AND HANDSOME AND THE

01:38 - 48.422 ALL-AMERICAN BOY, AND A GREAT

01:38 - 50.991 GUY AND A VERY COMPETENT FELLOW.

01:38 - 52.726 >> SHORTLY AFTER YOUR WIN,

01:38 - 54.128 PRESIDENT NIXON INVITED YOU TO

01:38 - 54.662 THE WHITE HOUSE.

01:38 - 55.429 CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT

01:38 - 57.765 MEETING WAS LIKE?

01:38 - 00.768 >> WELL, THE MEETING WAS VERY

01:39 - 01.468 CORDIAL.

01:39 - 04.471 I HAVE A PICTURE OF MY OFFICE OF

01:39 - 06.974 THE PRESIDENT GREETING ME.

01:39 - 10.344 HE HAD BEEN ELECTED IN 1969, SO

01:39 - 11.645 HE WAS IN HIS FIRST TERM IN

01:39 - 12.112 OFFICE.

01:39 - 14.615 AND SOMETIME AFTER THE ELECTION,

01:39 - 17.284 WHEN I WAS RE-ELECTED, TOM GOLA

01:39 - 18.919 AND I GOT AN INVITATION TO COME

01:39 - 20.421 TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

01:39 - 24.158 AND TOM WAS NOT DISPOSED TO MAKE

01:39 - 24.725 THE TRIP.

01:39 - 27.194 HE JUST WASN'T INTERESTED IN

01:39 - 28.562 GOING TO WASHINGTON TO SEE THE

01:39 - 29.263 PRESIDENT.

01:39 - 32.366 AND I WAS.

01:39 - 35.602 AND I HAD A RECOLLECTION OF

01:39 - 37.204 BEING USHERED INTO THE OVAL

01:39 - 38.205 OFFICE.

01:39 - 41.475 AND I HAD A VERY HARD TIME

01:39 - 42.276 SMILING.

01:39 - 43.777 WHEN YOU'RE A CANDIDATE IN A

01:39 - 45.279 PUBLIC OFFICE, YOU HAVE TO LEARN

01:39 - 47.314 HOW TO SMILE.

01:39 - 51.251 AND I'VE BEEN IN THAT PICTURE

01:39 - 52.886 FOR A RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF

01:39 - 54.922 TIME, AND IT DIDN'T COME EASILY

01:39 - 56.290 TO ME.

01:39 - 57.624 BUT AT ANY RATE, WHEN WE WALKED

01:39 - 59.560 IN AND WALKED AGAINST THE WALL,

01:39 - 00.728 THERE WERE PHOTOGRAPHERS OFF TO

01:40 - 02.229 THE LEFT.

01:40 - 03.664 PRESIDENT NIXON PUT HIS RIGHT

01:40 - 06.633 ARM AROUND ME, REACHED TO RIB

01:40 - 10.504 CAGE, AND DUG IN AND BROKE ME UP

01:40 - 11.605 INTO A BIG LAUGH.

01:40 - 13.907 AND THAT WAS MY FIRST SMILING

01:40 - 15.709 PICTURE.

01:40 - 17.778 IT WASN'T SPONTANEOUS, BUT IT

01:40 - 19.546 WAS INDUCED.

01:40 - 20.514 >> WHAT WERE YOUR EARLY

01:40 - 22.783 IMPRESSIONS OF PRESIDENT NIXON?

01:40 - 28.288 >> WELL, I THOUGHT HE WAS A VERY

01:40 - 29.990 ABLE GUY.

01:40 - 33.460 HE HAD BEEN VICE PRESIDENT FOR

01:40 - 34.128 TWO TERMS.

01:40 - 35.262 HE'D BEEN A UNITED STATES

01:40 - 37.498 SENATOR BEFORE THAT.

01:40 - 40.267 HE THEN WAS DEFEATED BY KENNEDY

01:40 - 41.702 IN A VERY CLOSE ELECTION IN

01:40 - 42.603 1960.

01:40 - 44.371 HE RAN FOR GOVERNOR OF

01:40 - 46.440 CALIFORNIA IN 1962.

01:40 - 49.009 AND THOSE WERE LONG BEFORE THE

01:40 - 50.444 WATERGATE DAYS.

01:40 - 55.349 AND HE WAS CONGENIAL, AND IT WAS

01:40 - 56.717 AN INTERESTING THING TO BE

01:40 - 58.318 INVITED TO THE OVAL OFFICE AND

01:40 - 00.087 TO HAVE A CHANCE TO MEET THE

01:41 - 01.655 PRESIDENT AND TALK TO HIM ABOUT

01:41 - 04.358 LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE DUTIES

01:41 - 05.993 OF THE PRESIDENCY AND ABOUT WHAT

01:41 - 08.562 WAS GOING ON IN PHILADELPHIA AND

01:41 - 10.297 THE WORLD.

01:41 - 11.165 >> BILLY MEEHAN AND OTHERS

01:41 - 12.366 APPROACHED YOU TO RUN FOR MAYOR

01:41 - 14.068 AGAIN IN 1971.

01:41 - 16.036 WHY DID YOU DECLINE?

01:41 - 18.439 >> I DIDN'T REALLY WANT TO RUN

01:41 - 22.309 FOR MAYOR IN 1967, AND I HAD

01:41 - 24.978 ACCOMMODATED THE PARTY.

01:41 - 28.816 AND AFTER THE BIG WIN IN 1969,

01:41 - 31.185 WHEN I WAS RE-ELECTED BY

01:41 - 34.354 101,000, I THOUGHT THAT I WAS

01:41 - 36.323 REALLY IN LINE TO BE THE

01:41 - 38.892 REPUBLICAN NOMINEE FOR GOVERNOR

01:41 - 41.962 IN 1970.

01:41 - 43.597 GOVERNOR RAYMOND SHAFER HAD JUST

01:41 - 45.265 FINISHED HIS TERM.

01:41 - 46.867 THERE WAS AN OPEN SEAT.

01:41 - 49.203 AND TO BE ABLE TO CARRY

01:41 - 51.638 PHILADELPHIA MADE YOU A SURE

01:41 - 54.308 WINNER STATEWIDE.

01:41 - 57.311 THE GENERAL RULE WAS THAT IF ANY

01:41 - 00.080 REPUBLICAN LOST PHILADELPHIA BY

01:42 - 02.816 LESS THAN 150,000,

01:42 - 04.551 YOU'D BE ELECTED.

01:42 - 08.489 AND BILL MEEHAN AND THE

01:42 - 10.624 REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP WANTED TO

01:42 - 13.093 SAVE ME FOR THE MAYOR'S RACE.

01:42 - 15.629 REMINDED ME OF A STORY OUT OF

01:42 - 16.296 KNUTE ROCKNE.

01:42 - 18.265 THEY WERE SAVING SOME FOOTBALL

01:42 - 20.100 PLAYER AT NOTRE DAME FOR THE

01:42 - 21.802 JUNIOR PROM.

01:42 - 26.373 AND I THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS NOT

01:42 - 28.408 THE WAY I SHOULD HAVE BEEN

01:42 - 29.710 TREATED.

01:42 - 31.745 AND I REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO BE

01:42 - 35.849 MAYOR IN 1971, JUST AS I WASN'T

01:42 - 40.354 ANXIOUS TO BE MAYOR IN 1967.

01:42 - 41.488 >> WOULD YOU TELL THE STORY OF

01:42 - 42.856 HOW POLICE COMMISSIONER FRANK

01:42 - 45.058 RIZZO SAT DOWN AND ASKED YOU

01:42 - 46.793 ABOUT WHETHER YOU HAD INTEREST

01:42 - 48.562 IN THE MAYORAL RACE?

01:42 - 49.963 >> YEAH, WELL, COMMISSIONER

01:42 - 52.833 RIZZO WAS BEING TALKED ABOUT AS

01:42 - 56.303 A POSSIBLE CANDIDATE FOR MAYOR.

01:42 - 59.306 AND BILL GREEN, CONGRESSMAN

01:42 - 00.941 GREEN, WAS TALKED ABOUT AS BEING

01:43 - 03.377 A POSSIBLE CANDIDATE FOR MAYOR.

01:43 - 04.311 AND THERE WERE SOME OTHERS --

01:43 - 06.747 I THINK HARDY WILLIAMS AND SOME

01:43 - 08.348 OTHER FOLKS.

01:43 - 10.083 AND FRANK RIZZO INVITED ME TO

01:43 - 10.484 LUNCH.

01:43 - 12.986 I RECALL THE EVENT VERY WELL.

01:43 - 14.421 WE WENT DOWN TO THE BEN FRANKLIN

01:43 - 15.155 HOTEL.

01:43 - 18.025 WE HAD A NICE LUNCHEON TRAY.

01:43 - 20.994 AND WE HAD A NICE MEAL.

01:43 - 22.496 AND HE SAID, "I WANT TO TALK TO

01:43 - 24.898 YOU ABOUT THE MAYOR'S RACE.

01:43 - 27.568 IF YOU'RE GONNA RUN, I WON'T

01:43 - 28.969 RUN."

01:43 - 30.904 HE SAID, "I DON'T WANT TO SEE

01:43 - 33.106 BILL GREEN ELECTED MAYOR OF

01:43 - 34.942 PHILADELPHIA.

01:43 - 37.411 BUT IF YOU'RE NOT GONNA RUN, I

01:43 - 39.379 AM GONNA RUN.

01:43 - 42.316 BUT I DON'T WANT YOU TO TELL ME

01:43 - 45.352 THAT YOU'RE NOT GONNA RUN AND

01:43 - 46.486 THEN RUN, OR I DON'T WANT YOU TO

01:43 - 47.521 TELL ME YOU'RE GONNA RUN AND

01:43 - 48.989 THEN NOT RUN."

01:43 - 50.057 I SAID, "HEY, LOOK, FRANK.

01:43 - 51.959 I DON'T OWE YOU ANYTHING.

01:43 - 54.494 I DON'T INTEND TO RUN.

01:43 - 55.963 BUT IF I CHANGE MY MIND, THAT'S

01:43 - 56.496 UP TO ME.

01:43 - 57.831 I DON'T INTEND TO CHANGE MY

01:43 - 59.132 MIND, BUT I'M NOT MAKING ANY

01:43 - 00.334 DEALS ABOUT IT.

01:44 - 01.835 YOU WANT TO RUN FOR MAYOR, RUN

01:44 - 03.437 FOR MAYOR."

01:44 - 04.738 HE SAID, "WELL, IF YOU RUN, I

01:44 - 05.339 WON'T RUN."

01:44 - 07.007 AND I SAID, "WELL, THAT'S UP TO

01:44 - 08.308 YOU."

01:44 - 09.676 AND I MEANT IT.

01:44 - 11.645 I WASN'T GONNA RUN FOR MAYOR,

01:44 - 13.113 AND I DIDN'T.

01:44 - 16.283 AND RIZZO RAN, AND GREEN, AS I

01:44 - 17.451 RECOLLECT IT, RAN IN THE

01:44 - 19.152 PRIMARY, AND RIZZO WON THE

01:44 - 21.722 PRIMARY AND THEREAFTER WAS

01:44 - 24.191 ELECTED MAYOR.

01:44 - 25.425 >> SHIFTING GEARS, IN YOUR

01:44 - 27.394 BIOGRAPHY, YOU TELL THE STORY

01:44 - 28.662 PHILADELPHIA BULLETIN REPORTER

01:44 - 29.830 GREG WALTER.

01:44 - 31.798 HE WAS ARRESTED FOR WIRETAPPING,

01:44 - 33.233 AND YOU CHARACTERIZED THAT AS A

01:44 - 34.368 MISTAKE.

01:44 - 36.603 WHY IS THAT?

01:44 - 38.572 >> WELL, GREG WALTER WAS A

01:44 - 41.775 REPORTER FOR THE PHILADELPHIA

01:44 - 43.744 BULLETIN.

01:44 - 49.316 AND THE BULLETIN WAS ON A

01:44 - 53.854 CRUSADE.

01:44 - 57.858 AND IT WAS A VIOLATION OF

01:44 - 00.327 PENNSYLVANIA LAW TO RECORD A

01:45 - 02.963 CONVERSATION EVEN IF YOU WERE A

01:45 - 05.532 PARTY TO THE CONVERSATION.

01:45 - 07.734 THAT DIFFERS FROM FEDERAL LAW,

01:45 - 09.269 WHERE, IN ORDER TO BE GUILTY OF

01:45 - 11.405 WIRETAPPING, SOMEBODY HAS TO

01:45 - 13.573 INTERCEPT A CONVERSATION BETWEEN

01:45 - 15.075 OTHER PEOPLE.

01:45 - 16.376 UNDER FEDERAL LAW, YOU COULD

01:45 - 18.845 RECORD YOUR OWN CONVERSATION,

01:45 - 21.348 BUT YOU COULDN'T UNDER STATE

01:45 - 22.582 LAW.

01:45 - 25.018 AND THIS REPORTER, GREG WALTER,

01:45 - 27.487 HAD RECORDED THE CONVERSATION.

01:45 - 30.424 HE HAD VIOLATED THE LAW, AND I

01:45 - 32.726 DECIDED TO BRING THE CASE.

01:45 - 34.828 AND I CHARACTERIZED IT AS A

01:45 - 38.999 MISTAKE BECAUSE, ALTHOUGH WALTER

01:45 - 44.071 WAS GUILTY OF THE CHARGE, THE

01:45 - 46.606 IMPORTANCE OF A FREE PRESS AND

01:45 - 49.142 INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING IS SO

01:45 - 52.179 IMPORTANT IN OUR SOCIETY, THAT

01:45 - 53.714 WHEN IT WAS CONSENSUAL

01:45 - 55.182 WIRETAPPING -- THAT IS, ONE

01:45 - 58.085 PARTY, WALTER, PARTY TO THE

01:45 - 01.621 CONVERSATION, RECORDED HIS OWN

01:46 - 04.124 CONVERSATION -- IN RETROSPECT, I

01:46 - 06.159 THOUGHT IT WAS A MISTAKE.

01:46 - 12.632 AND THE NEWSPAPERS RESPONSE WAS

01:46 - 13.333 OUTRAGE.

01:46 - 16.236 IT WAS GOING AFTER ONE OF THEIR

01:46 - 16.670 OWN.

01:46 - 19.272 AND THE PUBLICITY WAS VERY

01:46 - 19.906 ADVERSE.

01:46 - 23.710 AND IT WAS A GOOD LESSON.

01:46 - 25.345 TO WHAT DO YOU BLAME THE LOSS OF

01:46 - 27.414 THE 1973 DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S

01:46 - 29.916 RACE?

01:46 - 35.589 WELL, THE ELECTION FOR D.A. CAME

01:46 - 38.892 UP 10 DAYS AFTER THE SO-CALLED

01:46 - 41.795 SATURDAY NIGHT MASSACRE.

01:46 - 44.798 I HAD BEEN ASKED BY THE NIXON

01:46 - 47.234 CAMPAIGN TO BE THE CHAIRMAN OF

01:46 - 48.802 PRESIDENT NIXON'S RE-ELECT

01:46 - 51.605 CAMPAIGN IN PENNSYLVANIA.

01:46 - 55.008 AND I HAD AGREED TO DO THAT.

01:46 - 59.112 THIS WAS AT A TIME WHEN -- THE

01:46 - 00.447 FOLLOWING YEAR, NIXON WAS

01:47 - 02.949 RE-ELECTED BY A HEFTY MARGIN,

01:47 - 08.422 BUT THEN BY NOVEMBER OF 1973,

01:47 - 10.857 WHEN I WAS UP FOR RE-ELECTION AS

01:47 - 13.827 DISTRICT ATTORNEY, NIXON WAS

01:47 - 16.496 ALREADY STARTING TO HAVE MAJOR

01:47 - 17.964 PROBLEMS.

01:47 - 20.000 AND THE ISSUE WAS RAISED ABOUT

01:47 - 22.402 MY BEING CLOSE TO NIXON, AND

01:47 - 24.805 NIXON IN DISFAVOR.

01:47 - 26.606 AND THERE WAS A MAJOR NATIONAL

01:47 - 30.076 SCANDAL 10 DAYS BEFORE THE

01:47 - 35.382 ELECTION, WHERE THE ATTORNEY

01:47 - 38.351 GENERAL RESIGNED AND THE DEPUTY

01:47 - 40.454 ATTORNEY GENERAL RESIGNED OR

01:47 - 42.155 THEY WERE FIRED.

01:47 - 47.060 AND BORK CAME OVER TO TAKE OVER

01:47 - 48.595 THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S JOB.

01:47 - 51.364 AND IT WAS A MAJOR SCANDAL, AND

01:47 - 53.433 IT HAD A VERY SIGNIFICANT

01:47 - 55.535 IMPACT, I THINK, ON THE

01:47 - 57.037 ELECTION.

01:47 - 58.605 THE POLLS CONDUCTED BY OUR

01:47 - 00.040 REGULAR POLLSTER, A MAN NAMED

01:48 - 02.709 JOHN BUCCI, SHOWED TOM GOLA AND

01:48 - 04.244 ME WINNING BY SUBSTANTIAL

01:48 - 07.113 MARGINS, BUT WE WERE BOTH WERE

01:48 - 09.182 DEFEATED.

01:48 - 10.484 >> AFTER LEAVING THE DISTRICT

01:48 - 11.852 ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, YOU RETURNED

01:48 - 13.320 TO PRIVATE PRACTICE.

01:48 - 14.788 CAN YOU TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE

01:48 - 15.789 MORE INTERESTING OR MORE

01:48 - 17.991 PROMINENT CASES THAT YOU WERE

01:48 - 20.126 OVERSEEING AT THAT TIME?

01:48 - 21.495 >> WHEN I WENT BACK TO PRIVATE

01:48 - 25.165 PRACTICE, IT WAS WITH THE FIRM I

01:48 - 26.867 HAD BEEN WITH FOR THREE YEARS

01:48 - 28.835 AFTER LAW SCHOOL.

01:48 - 30.504 THAT FIRM WAS BARNES, DECHERT,

01:48 - 32.873 PRICE, MYERS & RHODES.

01:48 - 34.307 AND THEY HAD CONTRACTED THEIR

01:48 - 36.142 NAME TO DECHERT,

01:48 - 37.611 PRICE & RHODES.

01:48 - 39.446 MORE RECENTLY, THEY HAVE

01:48 - 42.582 CONTRACTED IT AGAIN TO DECHERT.

01:48 - 44.684 AND AS I JOKINGLY SAID, I WAS

01:48 - 49.890 GONE FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS, FROM

01:48 - 53.493 1959 TO 1974.

01:48 - 55.662 SOME OF THE INTERROGATORIES

01:48 - 57.964 WHICH HAD BEEN PENDING WHEN I

01:48 - 00.267 LEFT WERE STILL UNANSWERED.

01:49 - 03.336 THAT WASN'T QUITE SO, BUT THINGS

01:49 - 05.338 DIDN'T MOVE TOO FAST.

01:49 - 06.773 IT WAS A DIFFERENT FIRM.

01:49 - 09.409 THE FIRM THAT I LEFT HAD ABOUT

01:49 - 11.611 45 LAWYERS WHEN I STARTED IN

01:49 - 12.679 1956.

01:49 - 16.783 IT HAD GROWN TO ABOUT 160.

01:49 - 18.818 AND I REPRESENTED A NUMBER OF

01:49 - 22.389 THE FIRM'S CLIENTS IN A MAJOR

01:49 - 25.392 SECURITIES ACT LITIGATION, MAJOR

01:49 - 27.494 COMMERCIAL LITIGATION.

01:49 - 29.930 I ALSO HAD SOME INTERESTING

01:49 - 35.068 CASES WHERE PEOPLE CAME TO ME TO

01:49 - 38.004 DEFEND THEM IN SOME UNUSUAL

01:49 - 39.906 CRIMINAL MATTERS.

01:49 - 41.975 ONE CASE, I REPRESENTED A MAN

01:49 - 44.411 NAMED DR. RENGARATHNAM.

01:49 - 47.914 HE WAS, AS I RECOLLECT, A DOCTOR

01:49 - 50.116 OF INDIAN EXTRACTION.

01:49 - 51.585 AND HE HAD PERFORMED A

01:49 - 55.522 THORACENTESIS ON A YOUNG GIRL --

01:49 - 57.624 I THINK SHE WAS 5 -- AND

01:49 - 58.625 INSERTED A NEEDLE.

01:49 - 01.261 AND HE HAD MISSED THE MARK, AND

01:50 - 03.763 THERE WAS A FATALITY WHICH

01:50 - 05.332 RESULTED.

01:50 - 10.236 AND THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY

01:50 - 14.407 PROSECUTED HIM FOR INVOLUNTARY

01:50 - 15.108 MANSLAUGHTER.

01:50 - 17.110 THAT'S A CHARGE OF GROSS

01:50 - 17.844 NEGLIGENCE.

01:50 - 20.013 AND I REPRESENTED DR.

01:50 - 24.284 RENGARATHNAM AND WON THE CASE.

01:50 - 25.385 OF COURSE, YOU WOULDN'T EXPECT

01:50 - 27.187 ME TO TELL YOU ABOUT IT IF I

01:50 - 29.656 HADN'T WON THE CASE.

01:50 - 33.593 I REPRESENTED DR. EVERETT KOOP,

01:50 - 35.895 THE SURGEON GENERAL -- LATER

01:50 - 39.566 SURGEON GENERAL -- IN A CASE

01:50 - 42.235 WHERE -- HE WAS A PEDIATRIC

01:50 - 45.372 SURGEON, AND HE HAD A CASE OF

01:50 - 47.107 SIAMESE TWINS WHO WERE

01:50 - 48.908 CONNECTED.

01:50 - 55.915 AND THE ISSUE WAS THAT, IF HE

01:50 - 59.085 PERFORMED THE OPERATION, IT WAS

01:50 - 01.988 A VIRTUAL CERTAINTY THAT ONE OF

01:51 - 04.324 THE TWINS MIGHT DIE OR, IN FACT,

01:51 - 06.826 BOTH OF THEM MIGHT DIE.

01:51 - 09.462 THERE WAS CONCERN BY DR. KOOP,

01:51 - 13.433 BUT ALSO BY THE HOSPITAL, THAT

01:51 - 14.367 THERE COULD BE A CRIMINAL

01:51 - 17.037 PROSECUTION BROUGHT.

01:51 - 18.772 AND I HAD DONE THE LEGAL

01:51 - 20.240 RESEARCH, AND I SAW THAT THAT

01:51 - 22.242 WAS A POSSIBILITY.

01:51 - 23.576 THERE WAS A VERY INTERESTING

01:51 - 28.081 CASE GOING BACK TO ABOUT 1860,

01:51 - 31.551 WHERE THERE WAS A SHIP WENT DOWN

01:51 - 34.120 AND THERE WAS A LIFE BOAT AND

01:51 - 35.722 THERE WAS INSUFFICIENT FOOD TO

01:51 - 38.625 HAVE EVERYBODY STAY IN THE LIFE

01:51 - 38.925 BOAT.

01:51 - 41.061 AND THEY DREW STRAWS AS TO WHO

01:51 - 42.996 WOULD JUMP OVERBOARD.

01:51 - 44.898 AND ONE MAN WHO LOST REFUSED TO

01:51 - 47.200 JUMP OVERBOARD, AND THE CAPTAIN

01:51 - 49.469 THREW HIM OVERBOARD.

01:51 - 51.571 AND THE COURT SAID THAT NO MAN

01:51 - 54.441 COULD CHOOSE WHO WOULD LIVE AND

01:51 - 56.576 WHO WOULD DIE.

01:51 - 58.578 SO, DR. KOOP WAS APPREHENSIVE

01:51 - 02.048 ABOUT PERFORMING THE OPERATION.

01:52 - 05.618 AND I DECIDED TO CONVENE A COURT

01:52 - 08.488 IN THE JUVENILE COURT.

01:52 - 10.290 JUDGE PAUL DANDRIDGE WAS IN THE

01:52 - 10.724 COURT.

01:52 - 13.126 HE HAD BEEN AN ASSISTANT D.A. OF

01:52 - 14.494 MINE.

01:52 - 16.362 AND I ASKED HIM TO BRING IN TWO

01:52 - 18.732 OTHER JUDGES AND WENT BEFORE THE

01:52 - 20.066 COURT, TOLD THEM WHAT THE FACTS

01:52 - 21.868 WERE, THAT IF THERE WAS NO

01:52 - 23.470 OPERATION, BOTH WERE CERTAIN TO

01:52 - 26.773 DIE, AND WOULD THE COURT

01:52 - 29.442 AUTHORIZE THE OPERATION?

01:52 - 31.144 AND THE COURT DID.

01:52 - 34.414 AND REGRETTABLY, BOTH CHILDREN

01:52 - 36.149 DIED.

01:52 - 37.751 THERE WAS ANOTHER HIGH-PROFILE

01:52 - 45.325 CASE WHERE THE MAN WHO WAS THE

01:52 - 48.361 CHICKEN KING -- FRANK PERDUE --

01:52 - 50.530 SOLD CHICKENS.

01:52 - 53.633 AND HE DROVE ONTO THE

01:52 - 00.974 PENNSYLVANIA TURNPIKE ONE NIGHT.

01:53 - 02.976 AND HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT THERE

01:53 - 04.244 WAS CONSTRUCTION AND IT WAS

01:53 - 05.879 ONE-WAY TRAFFIC.

01:53 - 07.180 AND HE PULLED OUT AND HAD A

01:53 - 09.215 HEAD-ON COLLISION WITH A

01:53 - 10.917 MOTORIST COMING IN THE OPPOSITE

01:53 - 12.552 DIRECTION.

01:53 - 14.721 AND THERE WAS A COLLISION, AND

01:53 - 17.524 THE ONCOMING MOTORIST WAS

01:53 - 18.825 KILLED.

01:53 - 21.294 AND HE WAS CHARGED WITH

01:53 - 24.364 INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER.

01:53 - 27.300 AND I CHALLENGED THE CASE ON

01:53 - 28.701 INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE.

01:53 - 31.204 AND IN A LONG PROCEEDING, I WAS

01:53 - 33.540 SUCCESSFUL IN WINNING HIS

01:53 - 36.342 ACQUITTAL.

01:53 - 40.313 THERE WAS A CELEBRATED GURU

01:53 - 44.250 NAMED IRA EINHORN, WHO WAS A

01:53 - 47.654 MAJOR FIGURE ON EARTH DAY IN

01:53 - 50.523 1970.

01:53 - 52.592 AND HE BECAME EMBROILED IN A

01:53 - 56.129 VERY UNUSUAL CASE WHERE THE

01:53 - 59.032 POLICE FOUND HIS GIRLFRIEND IN A

01:53 - 01.901 SUITCASE IN HIS ROOM, WHERE HER

01:54 - 03.503 BODY HAD BEEN KEPT FOR A

01:54 - 07.440 PROTRACTED PERIOD OF TIME.

01:54 - 11.211 AND HE CLAIMED THAT THE C.I.A.

01:54 - 13.012 WAS INVOLVED.

01:54 - 15.715 AND HE ASKED ME TO REPRESENT HIM

01:54 - 17.183 IN THE BAIL HEARING.

01:54 - 18.451 AND I UNDERTOOK THE

01:54 - 21.754 REPRESENTATION, BUT ONLY AS TO

01:54 - 25.592 THE BAIL HEARING.

01:54 - 29.128 IT LOOKED TO ME AS IF ANYBODY

01:54 - 34.634 WHO WOULD DO THAT POTENTIALLY

01:54 - 40.206 HAVE A DEFENSE OF INSANITY, TO

01:54 - 42.775 KEEP A BODY IN A SUITCASE IN

01:54 - 45.044 YOUR APARTMENT FOR A PROTRACTED

01:54 - 47.380 PERIOD OF TIME.

01:54 - 51.284 AND HE WAS ABOUT ABOUT TO FOLLOW

01:54 - 51.985 MY ADVICE.

01:54 - 54.120 AND I SAID I'D REPRESENT HIM FOR

01:54 - 56.422 THE BAIL HEARING, AND I DID.

01:54 - 00.693 AND THE JUDGE RELEASED HIM ON

01:55 - 02.762 BAIL, AND THEN HE BECAME A

01:55 - 04.364 FUGITIVE.

01:55 - 05.899 AND HE LIVED IN FRANCE FOR MANY

01:55 - 08.234 YEARS, UNTIL HE WAS FINALLY

01:55 - 09.769 EXTRADITED.

01:55 - 11.170 FRANCE DIDN'T WANT TO EXTRADITE

01:55 - 13.373 HIM TO THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE

01:55 - 14.874 THE UNITED STATES HAS THE DEATH

01:55 - 16.209 PENALTY.

01:55 - 18.044 SO, THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY AGREED

01:55 - 20.413 THAT THERE WOULD NOT BE A

01:55 - 22.115 REQUEST FOR THE DEATH PENALTY.

01:55 - 24.550 HE WAS FINALLY RETURNED AND IS

01:55 - 27.153 SERVING A LIFE SENTENCE.

01:55 - 31.224 AND WHEN THE BAIL HEARING WAS

01:55 - 32.625 BEING CONDUCTED, HE AND I WERE

01:55 - 34.027 WALKING DOWN THE HALL, AND THEY

01:55 - 36.562 TOOK SOME FOOTAGE OF US WALKING

01:55 - 38.031 DOWN THE HALL.

01:55 - 39.532 AND I'D BEEN THE EX-D.A., AND IT

01:55 - 44.604 WAS A HIGHLY PUBLICIZED CASE.

01:55 - 46.105 AND THEY PLAYED THAT FOOTAGE OF

01:55 - 48.207 ME FOREVER.

01:55 - 49.776 THERE'S A BOOK ON PHILADELPHIA,

01:55 - 55.548 THE MAJOR PERSONALITIES AND

01:55 - 58.284 EVENTS IN PHILADELPHIA FOR 100

01:55 - 04.190 YEARS, AND ALTHOUGH I WAS D.A.,

01:56 - 07.493 SENATOR, THE ONLY REFERENCE TO

01:56 - 09.696 ME IS "LAWYER WHO REPRESENTED

01:56 - 12.799 EINHORN AT THE BAIL HEARING,"

01:56 - 14.434 WHICH GOES TO SHOW YOU THE

01:56 - 16.836 FICKLE FINGER OF FATE.

01:56 - 18.338 >> SENATOR, YOU RAN FOR U.S.

01:56 - 20.707 SENATE IN 1976 FOR THE FIRST

01:56 - 21.307 TIME.

01:56 - 22.875 WHAT INTERESTED YOU ABOUT

01:56 - 26.412 RUNNING FOR THE U.S. SENATE?

01:56 - 29.482 >> I WAS INTERESTED IN RUNNING

01:56 - 32.919 FOR THE SENATE BECAUSE OF MY

01:56 - 34.921 CONTINUING INTEREST IN PUBLIC

01:56 - 39.692 OFFICE AND ELECTIVE OFFICE.

01:56 - 47.133 AND SENATOR SCOTT WAS RETIRING.

01:56 - 50.169 IT WOULD BE AN OPEN SEAT.

01:56 - 52.372 AND I THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE A

01:56 - 54.807 GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO BE A

01:56 - 56.442 CANDIDATE.

01:56 - 58.478 JOHN HEINZ WAS A MEMBER OF THE

01:56 - 00.980 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

01:57 - 03.216 GEORGE PACKARD HAD BEEN THE

01:57 - 06.819 EDITOR OF THE PHILADELPHIA

01:57 - 08.521 BULLETIN.

01:57 - 11.657 AND IT LOOKED LIKE AN

01:57 - 13.659 INTERESTING RACE.

01:57 - 17.363 THEY HAD JUST PASSED THE

01:57 - 20.233 CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM ACT OF

01:57 - 23.536 1974, WHICH LIMITED THE AMOUNT

01:57 - 25.505 OF MONEY A CANDIDATE COULD SPEND

01:57 - 27.040 OF HIS OWN MONEY.

01:57 - 29.042 FOR THE SIZE STATE OF

01:57 - 32.445 PENNSYLVANIA, IT WAS $35,000.

01:57 - 34.047 I'D BEEN IN PRIVATE PRACTICE FOR

01:57 - 36.182 A FEW YEARS.

01:57 - 37.450 THAT WAS ABOUT AS MUCH MONEY AS

01:57 - 41.721 I HAD, SO CONGRESSMAN HEINZ AND

01:57 - 44.724 I WERE ON AN EQUAL FOOTING.

01:57 - 46.125 THEN RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE

01:57 - 49.462 CAMPAIGN, I ANNOUNCED FOR THE

01:57 - 54.033 SENATE IN NOVEMBER OF 1975.

01:57 - 56.669 AND IN JANUARY OF 1976, THE

01:57 - 57.904 SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED

01:57 - 00.239 STATES CAME DOWN WITH A VERY

01:58 - 02.809 FAMOUS DECISION CALLED

01:58 - 06.446 BUCKLEY v. VALEO, SAYING THAT AN

01:58 - 08.114 INDIVIDUAL COULD SPEND AS MUCH

01:58 - 09.816 OF HIS OR HER MONEY AS HE/SHE

01:58 - 12.852 CHOSE, AND JOHN DID.

01:58 - 15.521 IT WAS A REAL BATTLE.

01:58 - 17.323 OUT OF A MILLION VOTES CAST, I

01:58 - 21.360 LOST BY 26,000, 2.6%.

01:58 - 23.763 AND A GOOD MANY OF THE VOTES

01:58 - 25.231 WERE TAKEN BY GEORGE PACKARD,

01:58 - 26.966 WHO WAS ALSO FROM THE

01:58 - 28.668 PHILADELPHIA AREA.

01:58 - 31.237 BUT IT WAS A LIVELY CAMPAIGN.

01:58 - 34.006 IT GOT ME STARTED ON STATEWIDE

01:58 - 37.076 CAMPAIGNING, AND I WENT FROM

01:58 - 37.910 THERE.

01:58 - 39.112 >> WHAT WAS THE TONE OF THAT

01:58 - 40.913 RACE?

01:58 - 42.782 >> TOUGH.

01:58 - 47.019 THERE WAS AN ISSUE IN THE

01:58 - 48.988 CAMPAIGN.

01:58 - 50.323 THE PHILADELPHIA BULLETIN

01:58 - 53.092 PUBLISHED A STORY THAT JOHN

01:58 - 57.096 HEINZ HAD TAKEN $6,000 IN CASH

01:58 - 59.765 FROM THE GULF LOBBYIST, A MAN

01:58 - 02.335 NAMED CLAUDE WILD, WHO HAD GIVEN

01:59 - 04.837 QUITE A FEW CASH CONTRIBUTIONS.

01:59 - 06.272 AND CASH CONTRIBUTIONS WERE

01:59 - 09.976 ELIMINATED BY THE 1974

01:59 - 11.878 LEGISLATION.

01:59 - 15.314 AND CONGRESSMAN HEINZ WOULD

01:59 - 17.717 NEVER ANSWER A QUESTION ABOUT

01:59 - 21.454 WHETHER HE HAD OR HAD NOT.

01:59 - 24.056 WE HAD ONE VERY DRAMATIC MOMENT

01:59 - 26.192 IN THE CAMPAIGN -- AT LEAST, I

01:59 - 28.294 THOUGHT IT WAS DRAMATIC.

01:59 - 31.797 WE WERE DEBATING IN THE UNION

01:59 - 39.071 LEAGUE, AND JOHN HEINZ SPOKE

01:59 - 41.174 AFTER I DID.

01:59 - 45.278 AND I PREPARED AN AFFIDAVIT,

01:59 - 49.282 WHICH SAID, "I, H.J. HEINZ III,

01:59 - 50.716 BEING DULY SWORN ACCORDING TO

01:59 - 52.685 LAW, DEPOSE AND STATE THAT I DID

01:59 - 55.555 NOT TAKE ANY CASH FROM CLAUDE

01:59 - 57.356 WILD."

01:59 - 00.293 AND WHEN I FINISHED MY SPEECH

02:00 - 01.694 AND HE WAS UP NEXT, I SAID,

02:00 - 02.728 "THERE'S BEEN A BIG ISSUE IN

02:00 - 03.396 THIS CAMPAIGN."

02:00 - 06.232 I HAD ABOUT 30, 45 SECONDS LEFT.

02:00 - 07.934 AND I SAID, "HERE'S A WAY TO

02:00 - 09.535 RESOLVE IT.

02:00 - 11.404 I'VE PREPARED THIS AFFIDAVIT."

02:00 - 12.738 THEN I READ IT, AND I SAID, "ALL

02:00 - 14.740 YOU HAVE TO DO, JOHN -- SIGN

02:00 - 16.008 THIS AFFIDAVIT -- I'VE GOT A

02:00 - 17.977 NOTARY IN THE FRONT ROW -- AND

02:00 - 19.245 THIS ISSUE'S GONE FROM THE

02:00 - 21.013 CAMPAIGN."

02:00 - 23.349 AND HE GOT UP AND -- THE URBAN

02:00 - 25.151 LEAGUE IS ANOTHER ORGANIZATION

02:00 - 27.787 IN TOWN -- MINORITIES.

02:00 - 30.056 AND WE WERE IN THE UNION LEAGUE.

02:00 - 32.925 AND HE SAID, "WELL, IT'S A GREAT

02:00 - 34.327 PLEASURE TO BE HERE THIS EVENING

02:00 - 36.295 IN THE URBAN LEAGUE."

02:00 - 40.132 AND HE IGNORED THE AFFIDAVIT.

02:00 - 42.368 >> YOU ALSO ENTERED THE 1978

02:00 - 43.936 GOVERNOR'S RACE.

02:00 - 44.604 COULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT

02:00 - 46.072 ABOUT THE POLITICAL CLIMATE AT

02:00 - 47.807 THAT TIME?

02:00 - 50.910 >> THE POLITICAL CLIMATE WAS

02:00 - 53.212 THAT GOVERNOR SHAPP WAS ENDING

02:00 - 54.046 TWO TERMS.

02:00 - 58.751 IT WAS GONNA BE AN OPEN SEAT.

02:00 - 59.752 THERE WERE QUITE A NUMBER OF

02:00 - 02.154 PEOPLE WHO WERE INTERESTED IN

02:01 - 02.822 RUNNING.

02:01 - 05.625 DICK THORNBURGH HAD BEEN

02:01 - 09.262 ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR

02:01 - 11.397 THE CRIMINAL DIVISION.

02:01 - 13.099 A FELLOW NAMED BOB BUTERA HAD

02:01 - 15.334 BEEN SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF

02:01 - 18.104 REPRESENTATIVES, A REPUBLICAN.

02:01 - 21.641 A MAN NAMED HENRY HAGER WAS THE

02:01 - 23.175 LEAD REPUBLICAN IN THE SENATE,

02:01 - 25.911 THE PRESIDENT PRO TEMPORE.

02:01 - 32.018 THERE WAS A FELLA NAMED -- HIS

02:01 - 33.252 NAME WILL COME TO ME IN A MINUTE

02:01 - 35.655 -- WHO'D BEEN THE U.S. ATTORNEY

02:01 - 36.789 FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF

02:01 - 41.227 PENNSYLVANIA, A PROTéGé OF

02:01 - 43.863 GOVERNOR SCHWEIKER, WHO'D GOTTEN

02:01 - 45.965 A LOT OF PUBLICITY, AND I.

02:01 - 48.734 SO THERE WERE FIVE CANDIDATES.

02:01 - 50.269 ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, IT WAS

02:01 - 51.904 QUITE A CROWDED FIELD, TOO.

02:01 - 54.674 THERE WAS PETE FLAHERTY, WHO HAD

02:01 - 59.545 BEEN THE MAYOR OF PITTSBURGH AND

02:01 - 02.081 HAD BEEN AN ASSOCIATE ATTORNEY

02:02 - 04.383 GENERAL, NUMBER-THREE MAN, IN

02:02 - 06.185 THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

02:02 - 09.155 BOB CASEY THE ELDER HAD BEEN

02:02 - 11.290 AUDITOR GENERAL.

02:02 - 14.994 AND THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR

02:02 - 17.663 WAS INTERESTED IN RUNNING.

02:02 - 20.099 SO IT WAS QUITE A DRAMATIC

02:02 - 21.233 PRIMARY.

02:02 - 25.404 AND THORNBURGH WON.

02:02 - 29.842 A WEEK BEFORE THE ELECTION, I

02:02 - 31.310 WAS NARROWLY AHEAD OF

02:02 - 36.449 THORNBURGH, AND H.J. HEINZ II,

02:02 - 39.618 THE FATHER OF JOHN HEINZ, WHO

02:02 - 41.320 HAD BEEN ELECTED TO THE SENATE

02:02 - 46.926 IN 1976, HAD MADE A $250,000

02:02 - 48.394 CONTRIBUTION TO THORNBURGH,

02:02 - 50.896 WHICH CARRIED HIM OVER THE TOP,

02:02 - 54.300 AND HE WAS THE VICTOR IN THE

02:02 - 57.069 PRIMARY, AND HE WON THE GENERAL

02:02 - 59.538 ELECTION AGAINST PETE FLAHERTY.

02:02 - 01.107 >> YOU WERE RUNNING ALONGSIDE

02:03 - 02.808 TWO CIVIL PROSECUTORS AND TWO

02:03 - 03.843 U.S. ATTORNEYS.

02:03 - 04.710 HOW DID YOU DISTINGUISH

02:03 - 07.346 YOURSELF?

02:03 - 08.814 >> THE OTHER PROSECUTOR WAS A

02:03 - 11.217 FELLA NAMED DAVID MARSDEN, WHO

02:03 - 13.352 HAD BEEN THE U.S. ATTORNEY OF

02:03 - 14.019 PHILADELPHIA.

02:03 - 15.621 AND THE OTHER FELLA WAS ERNIE

02:03 - 16.021 KLEIN.

02:03 - 17.223 I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE

02:03 - 19.592 ALL THE NAMES STRAIGHT.

02:03 - 21.494 NOTWITHSTANDING THE LAPSE OF

02:03 - 23.863 SEVERAL DECADES, I'VE GOT ALL

02:03 - 24.930 THE PLAYERS IN THEIR PROPER

02:03 - 26.599 PERSPECTIVE.

02:03 - 29.468 HOW DID I DISTINGUISH MYSELF?

02:03 - 31.904 I DISTINGUISHED MYSELF BY

02:03 - 34.874 PREPARING A BLUEPRINT FOR A

02:03 - 37.910 BETTER PENNSYLVANIA, WENT OVER

02:03 - 39.578 ALL OF THE ISSUES -- THE

02:03 - 44.150 ECONOMY, CRIME CONTROL,

02:03 - 48.421 TAXATION, ENVIRONMENT, VERY

02:03 - 50.489 STRONG ON SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES,

02:03 - 54.293 WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY FORTE.

02:03 - 59.465 AND THE OTHER PEOPLE HAD VERY

02:03 - 01.467 GOOD CREDENTIALS.

02:04 - 04.370 THE GREAT PROBLEM WAS THAT

02:04 - 06.972 BUTERA, MARSDEN, AND I SPLIT THE

02:04 - 09.542 VOTE FROM THE SOUTHEAST.

02:04 - 11.243 BOB BUTERA WAS FROM MONTGOMERY

02:04 - 12.912 COUNTY, A PHILADELPHIA SUBURB,

02:04 - 15.014 AND DAVE MARSDEN WAS A

02:04 - 18.184 PHILADELPHIAN, AS WAS I.

02:04 - 22.421 BUT FOR ARLEN SPECTER TO WIN A

02:04 - 25.591 STATEWIDE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY

02:04 - 28.294 TOOK A LOT OF DOING.

02:04 - 32.031 IT TOOK A LOT OF EFFORT, A LOT

02:04 - 35.367 OF TRAVELING AROUND BECAUSE I

02:04 - 37.303 NEVER FIT INTO THE TRADITIONAL

02:04 - 41.707 REPUBLICAN MOLD, SOMETHING WHICH

02:04 - 45.845 HAS ALWAYS BEEN A FACTOR,

02:04 - 48.514 HELPFUL IN SOME WAYS WITH

02:04 - 50.883 INDEPENDENTS IN A GENERAL

02:04 - 54.587 ELECTION, BUT NOT VERY HELPFUL

02:04 - 55.988 IN A PRIMARY ELECTION, WHERE

02:04 - 58.123 PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR MORE

02:04 - 59.959 CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATES AND MORE

02:04 - 02.428 TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS.

02:05 - 04.463 AND MY BACKGROUND AS A DEMOCRAT,

02:05 - 07.466 WHICH I WAS WHEN I WAS ELECTED

02:05 - 10.769 DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN 1965 -- AS

02:05 - 12.071 A MATTER OF FACT, EARLIER TODAY

02:05 - 14.106 I WAS IN THE OFFICE OF

02:05 - 15.908 ALAN BUTKOVITZ, WHO'S THE CITY

02:05 - 17.710 CONTROLLER.

02:05 - 19.578 I WAS THERE BECAUSE MY

02:05 - 21.247 GRANDDAUGHTER, SILVI SPECTER,

02:05 - 23.182 WHO'S AGED 17, IS INTERESTED IN

02:05 - 26.652 BEING AN INTERN IN HIS OFFICE.

02:05 - 32.291 AND HE'S A POLITICAL HISTORIAN,

02:05 - 33.759 ALSO KNOWN AS A POLITICAL

02:05 - 35.027 JUNKIE.

02:05 - 37.763 AND HE HAD THE PHILADELPHIA

02:05 - 39.265 NEWSPAPERS -- THE DAY AFTER I

02:05 - 41.367 WAS ELECTED DISTRICT ATTORNEY,

02:05 - 43.669 ONE OF THE HEADLINES WAS, "ARLEN

02:05 - 47.506 SPECTER WINS ON THE REPUBLICAN

02:05 - 49.208 TICKET, BUT WE'VE ELECTED

02:05 - 51.377 ANOTHER DEMOCRAT," BECAUSE I HAD

02:05 - 53.412 RETAINED MY DEMOCRATIC

02:05 - 54.980 REGISTRATION, HADN'T CHANGED IT

02:05 - 01.420 UNTIL DECEMBER OF 1965.

02:06 - 05.891 SO, 1976 RUNNING FOR SENATE AND

02:06 - 09.762 1978 RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR SET ME

02:06 - 11.897 UP FOR A POTENTIAL RUN IN THE

02:06 - 13.132 FUTURE.

02:06 - 15.601 NOT THAT I HAD THAT MIND, BUT

02:06 - 17.870 THAT'S THE WAY IT WORKED OUT.

02:06 - 19.305 YOU MADE ANOTHER RUN FOR SENATE

02:06 - 20.372 IN 1980.

02:06 - 22.675 AFTER HAVING SEVERAL CAMPAIGNS

02:06 - 24.443 THAT WERE NO SUCCESSFUL, DID YOU

02:06 - 26.145 HAVE ANY PERSONAL DOUBTS OR ANY

02:06 - 28.714 DOUBTS WITH YOUR SUPPORTERS AND

02:06 - 31.216 YOUR CAMPAIGN STAFF?

02:06 - 33.652 >> I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY PERSONAL

02:06 - 34.954 DOUBTS.

02:06 - 37.323 I HAD LOST ELECTIONS.

02:06 - 39.058 I NEVER TOOK ANY OF THEM

02:06 - 42.761 PERSONALLY.

02:06 - 45.064 IF YOU WANT TO BE A CANDIDATE,

02:06 - 48.167 YOU HAVE TO BE A RISK-TAKER.

02:06 - 49.635 AND IF YOU WANT TO PUT YOUR NAME

02:06 - 51.904 OUT THERE, YOU HAVE TO BE

02:06 - 54.907 PREPARED TO LOSE AS WELL AS

02:06 - 58.310 BEING PREPARED AND HOPEFUL OF

02:06 - 59.845 WINNING.

02:06 - 03.482 IN 1980, A NATIONAL REPUBLICAN

02:07 - 06.418 POLLSTER NAMED BOB TEETER CAME

02:07 - 06.919 TO SEE ME.

02:07 - 08.621 I WAS PRACTICING LAW WITH

02:07 - 10.990 DECHERT, PRICE, & RHODES.

02:07 - 11.724 AND HE SAID,

02:07 - 12.558 "I WANTED TO TALK

02:07 - 15.828 ABOUT YOU ABOUT YOUR POSSIBLE

02:07 - 17.162 INTEREST IN RUNNING FOR SENATE

02:07 - 19.164 IN THE PRIMARY."

02:07 - 21.033 HE SAID, "I'VE DONE POLLING, AND

02:07 - 24.236 THERE ARE THREE POSSIBLE WINNERS

02:07 - 27.306 IN THIS ELECTION ON THE

02:07 - 28.307 REPUBLICAN SIDE."

02:07 - 30.042 HE WANTED TO ENCOURAGE

02:07 - 32.144 REPUBLICANS TO RUN.

02:07 - 35.214 HE SAID THERE'S ALEXANDER HAIG,

02:07 - 39.084 WHO HAD BEEN THE LEAD COMMANDER

02:07 - 40.586 OF NATO.

02:07 - 42.021 HE HAD BEEN CHIEF OF STAFF FOR

02:07 - 42.988 PRESIDENT NIXON.

02:07 - 49.461 HE'S A MAN I GOT TO KNOW WHEN I

02:07 - 51.630 WAS CONSIDERED TO REPRESENT

02:07 - 52.831 NIXON IN THE IMPEACHMENT

02:07 - 53.832 PROCEEDINGS.

02:07 - 54.833 WE TALKED ABOUT THAT?

02:07 - 55.300 >> MM-HMM.

02:07 - 57.302 >> WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THAT.

02:07 - 58.871 AND THE OTHER PROSPECTIVE

02:07 - 02.307 CANDIDATE WHO COULD WIN WAS

02:08 - 03.742 YOUNG BILL SCRANTON, WHO WAS THE

02:08 - 05.878 LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR.

02:08 - 07.813 AND BOB TEETER SAID TO ME,

02:08 - 09.882 "ARLEN, YOU'RE KNOWN BY 60% OF

02:08 - 12.117 THE VOTERS IN PENNSYLVANIA."

02:08 - 15.120 WELL, I HAD A FAIRLY GOOD

02:08 - 17.890 RECOGNITION FACTOR AS A RESULT

02:08 - 19.525 OF HAVING BEEN D.A., WHICH IS A

02:08 - 22.394 HIGHLY PUBLICIZED FIELD, BUT

02:08 - 24.863 THAT WAS SOME TIME AGO, BETWEEN

02:08 - 27.599 1966 AND 1974.

02:08 - 33.305 THIS WAS 1980, SIX YEARS LATER.

02:08 - 40.312 BUT I WAS NOT DISCOURAGED.

02:08 - 44.216 MY FAMILY WAS A LITTLE WARY.

02:08 - 47.019 JOAN THOUGHT THAT I HAD RUN

02:08 - 47.820 OFTEN ENOUGH.

02:08 - 50.389 MY SON SHANIN, WHO'S MY CHIEF

02:08 - 53.225 POLITICAL ADVISOR, THOUGHT I

02:08 - 54.860 HAD.

02:08 - 56.495 THIS WAS A DIFFERENT ERA, BUT

02:08 - 58.030 HAROLD STASSEN HAD RUN MANY

02:08 - 00.332 TIMES FOR THE PRESIDENCY.

02:09 - 01.533 AND THERE WAS SORT OF A JOKE

02:09 - 03.902 ABOUT STASSEN'S BEING A

02:09 - 05.037 CANDIDATE.

02:09 - 06.138 BUT HE HAD RUN, AND IT HAD

02:09 - 08.440 HELPED HIS INTERNATIONAL LAW

02:09 - 09.875 PRACTICE.

02:09 - 12.411 HAROLD STASSEN HAD BEEN THE

02:09 - 13.812 PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF

02:09 - 16.315 PENNSYLVANIA, WHOM I HAD MET

02:09 - 18.450 WHEN I WAS A STUDENT AT PENN IN

02:09 - 20.285 1950.

02:09 - 21.987 MY COLLEAGUE, MARV KATZ, AND I

02:09 - 24.423 HAD WON THE BOSTON UNIVERSITY

02:09 - 26.158 NATIONAL INVITATIONAL DEBATE

02:09 - 28.527 TOURNAMENT, AND HAROLD STASSEN

02:09 - 29.428 WAS THE PRESIDENT.

02:09 - 31.130 AND WE HAD COME AND PRESENTED

02:09 - 32.931 HIM THE TROPHY.

02:09 - 35.801 SO, I GOT TO MEET

02:09 - 37.603 HAROLD STASSEN.

02:09 - 39.138 HE HAD BEEN A VERY DISTINGUISHED

02:09 - 41.473 GOVERNMENT OF MINNESOTA AT THE

02:09 - 45.277 AGE OF 31, BACK IN THE EARLY

02:09 - 46.612 '40s.

02:09 - 48.547 AND HE WAS THE UNITED STATES

02:09 - 50.516 REPRESENTATIVE TO THE U.N., AS I

02:09 - 53.452 RECOLLECT IT, IN 1945.

02:09 - 54.119 AND THEN HE'D BEEN A

02:09 - 57.356 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IN 1948.

02:09 - 59.558 HE HAD A FAMOUS DEBATE AGAINST

02:09 - 01.393 THOMAS DEWEY, WHICH I CRITIQUED

02:10 - 03.796 WHEN I WAS IN A SPEECH CLASS AT

02:10 - 05.330 THE UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA IN

02:10 - 09.434 THE SPRING OF 1948.

02:10 - 11.737 AT ANY RATE, HAROLD STASSEN

02:10 - 13.372 WANTED TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN

02:10 - 16.809 1968, AND I WAS D.A. OF

02:10 - 19.011 PHILADELPHIA AT THE TIME.

02:10 - 22.648 AND I WAS THE DELEGATE TO THE

02:10 - 24.917 REPUBLICAN CONVENTION.

02:10 - 29.087 AND HAROLD STASSEN INVITED ME TO

02:10 - 31.290 LUNCH IN THE MIDDAY CLUB.

02:10 - 32.858 AND HE SAID, "ARLEN, I'D LIKE

02:10 - 35.227 YOU TO NOMINATE ME FOR PRESIDENT

02:10 - 36.995 OF THE UNITED STATES."

02:10 - 40.732 HE SAID, "WHEN I'M ELECTED, I'LL

02:10 - 42.301 MAKE YOU ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE

02:10 - 43.669 UNITED STATES."

02:10 - 46.338 AND I DIDN'T THINK THERE WAS

02:10 - 47.539 MUCH CHANCE OF HIS BEING

02:10 - 49.775 ELECTED, AND I WASN'T GONNA BE A

02:10 - 52.144 PARTY TO ANY DEAL.

02:10 - 54.246 AND I WASN'T EXACTLY SURE

02:10 - 56.882 WHETHER THAT WAS A BRIBE OFFER

02:10 - 57.749 OR NOT.

02:10 - 59.384 I WAS D.A., BUT I DIDN'T INTEND

02:10 - 01.253 TO PROSECUTE HIM FOR WHAT HE

02:11 - 03.355 TOLD ME AT A PRIVATE LUNCH.

02:11 - 07.459 THERE HAD BEEN A RUMOR THAT

02:11 - 09.461 EISENHOWER HAD PROMISED WARREN A

02:11 - 11.864 SEAT ON THE SUPREME COURT IF

02:11 - 13.265 WARREN WOULD BACK HIM FOR THE

02:11 - 14.733 REPUBLICAN NOMINATION FOR

02:11 - 17.069 PRESIDENT IN 1952.

02:11 - 19.071 EARL WARREN HAD BEEN THE

02:11 - 20.806 CANDIDATE FOR VICE PRESIDENT

02:11 - 24.943 WITH DEWEY IN 1948.

02:11 - 26.144 THAT'S PROBABLY MORE HISTORY

02:11 - 28.013 THAN YOU WANT TO KNOW.

02:11 - 30.949 BUT AT ANY RATE, I TOLD

02:11 - 32.417 HAROLD STASSEN I WASN'T GONNA

02:11 - 36.355 NOMINATE HIM, AND THAT WAS THAT.

02:11 - 39.458 BUT MY FAMILY THOUGHT THAT I WAS

02:11 - 43.795 ON THE VERGE OF BECOMING ANOTHER

02:11 - 46.965 HAROLD STASSEN, AND THEY DID NOT

02:11 - 49.635 THINK I SHOULD BE A CANDIDATE.

02:11 - 50.936 AND I CALLED UP BILL MEEHAN,

02:11 - 52.437 WHO WAS THE REPUBLICAN LEADER.

02:11 - 55.741 I HAD AT THAT TIME OPENED A LAW

02:11 - 58.443 OFFICE IN ATLANTIC CITY.

02:11 - 01.580 ATLANTIC CITY HAD JUST GOTTEN

02:12 - 03.115 GAMBLING.

02:12 - 06.518 AND I WAS A LITTLE BORED WITH MY

02:12 - 08.353 PRACTICE IN PHILADELPHIA AND

02:12 - 09.755 THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE INTERESTING

02:12 - 17.062 TO HAVE A BRANCH OFFICE, WITH

02:12 - 18.030 THE DECHERT OFFICE IN

02:12 - 20.332 PHILADELPHIA, BUT ALSO HAVE SOME

02:12 - 23.068 PRACTICE IN ATLANTIC CITY.

02:12 - 24.903 AND I EVEN TOOK THE BAR EXAM,

02:12 - 27.372 WHICH WAS KIND OF A RISKY THING

02:12 - 30.208 TO DO 23 YEARS OUT OF LAW

02:12 - 30.575 SCHOOL.

02:12 - 33.011 I KNEW THAT IF I FAILED, I'D BE

02:12 - 35.447 ON THE FRONT PAGE, BUT I WENT TO

02:12 - 37.249 THE CRAM COURSE AND TOOK THE BAR

02:12 - 37.749 EXAM.

02:12 - 39.985 AND ONE NIGHT I GOT A CALL FROM

02:12 - 41.920 DOROTHY BROWN, WHO WAS A

02:12 - 44.456 REPORTER FOR THE PHILADELPHIA

02:12 - 45.023 BULLETIN.

02:12 - 47.426 AND SHE SAID TO ME, "DO YOU KNOW

02:12 - 48.794 ANOTHER ARLEN SPECTER?"

02:12 - 50.595 AND I SAID, "IT'S A RATHER

02:12 - 52.164 UNUSUAL NAME.

02:12 - 53.398 I DON'T KNOW ANOTHER ARLEN

02:12 - 55.100 SPECTER."

02:12 - 56.234 AND SHE SAID, "WELL, WE JUST GOT

02:12 - 57.436 IT ON THE WIRES THAT ARLEN

02:12 - 59.338 SPECTER PASSED THE NEW JERSEY

02:12 - 01.106 BAR."

02:13 - 02.374 AND I SAID, "THAT'S ME, KID."

02:13 - 06.712 AND I PASSED THE NEW JERSEY BAR.

02:13 - 08.113 SO, AT ANY RATE I HAD ONE FOOT

02:13 - 09.748 IN ATLANTIC CITY AND ONE FOOT IN

02:13 - 12.017 PHILADELPHIA, AND THE

02:13 - 15.287 OPPORTUNITY AROSE TO RUN FOR

02:13 - 16.955 UNITED STATES SENATE, AND I

02:13 - 20.025 DECIDED TO DO IT.

02:13 - 21.226 >> NOW, LOOKING AT THAT U.S.

02:13 - 22.761 SENATE RACE, YOU CAMPAIGNED IN

02:13 - 24.529 ALL OF PENNSYLVANIA'S 67

02:13 - 25.030 COUNTIES.

02:13 - 27.332 WHAT'S THE LIKE?

02:13 - 32.104 >> IT'S ENERGIZING, AND IT'S

02:13 - 33.839 ENERVATING.

02:13 - 35.307 THOSE ARE TWO OPPOSITE WORDS.

02:13 - 36.908 "ENERGIZING" MEANS IT GETS YOU

02:13 - 39.277 SOUPED UP, AND "ENERVATING"

02:13 - 41.847 MEANS IT GETS YOU TIRED OUT.

02:13 - 44.950 BUT I HAD TO FIND SOME WAY TO

02:13 - 47.386 DISTINGUISH MYSELF.

02:13 - 48.954 AND I THOUGHT THAT IT WAS A

02:13 - 51.590 GREAT THING TO DO FOR A NUMBER

02:13 - 52.891 OF REASONS.

02:13 - 55.260 FIRST OF ALL, IT WAS GREAT

02:13 - 57.996 PUBLIC RELATIONS TO SHOW ENOUGH

02:13 - 02.034 ENERGY TO BE IN ALL 67 COUNTIES.

02:14 - 04.636 MY OPPONENT IN THE GENERAL

02:14 - 06.805 ELECTION WAS PETE FLAHERTY.

02:14 - 08.573 I DON'T WANT TO MOVE AHEAD TO

02:14 - 10.442 THE GENERAL ELECTION TOO FAST

02:14 - 13.211 BECAUSE I HAD A TOUGH PRIMARY

02:14 - 14.413 ELECTION.

02:14 - 16.114 GOVERNOR THORNBURGH HAD HIS OWN

02:14 - 18.283 CANDIDATE, A FELLA NAMED

02:14 - 19.785 HAABESTAD, WHO WAS CHAIRMAN OF

02:14 - 21.887 THE STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

02:14 - 23.755 HAABESTAD HAD BEEN AN

02:14 - 26.024 ALL-AMERICAN BASKETBALL PLAYER

02:14 - 27.659 FOR PRINCETON.

02:14 - 29.461 AND THEY HAD A SLOGAN FOR

02:14 - 31.163 BUDWEISER BEER -- "THIS BUD'S

02:14 - 33.565 FOR YOU."

02:14 - 37.035 AND SENATOR HEINZ AND SENATOR

02:14 - 39.137 SCHWEIKER CAME OUT FOR

02:14 - 41.239 HAABESTAD, AS WELL.

02:14 - 46.411 AND I THINK A FACTOR OF MY BEING

02:14 - 48.013 SUCCESSFUL IN THE PRIMARY IS

02:14 - 49.815 THAT I WAS RUNNING AGAINST THE

02:14 - 50.715 ESTABLISHMENT.

02:14 - 53.118 THERE'S SORT OF A MAGIC ABOUT

02:14 - 53.885 RUNNING AGAINST THE

02:14 - 56.555 ESTABLISHMENT, THE UNDERDOG

02:14 - 58.223 CONCEPT.

02:14 - 00.192 MILTON SHAPP DID IT TO A

02:15 - 01.393 FARE-THEE-WELL WHEN HE RAN

02:15 - 04.129 AGAINST SHAFER IN THE PRIMARY IN

02:15 - 08.066 1966 FOR -- HE RAN AGAINST

02:15 - 11.002 SHAFER IN THE GENERAL IN '66,

02:15 - 12.704 MAN AGAINST THE MACHINE.

02:15 - 14.306 HE LOST, BUT HE BUILT IT UP, AND

02:15 - 16.374 IT WAS MAN AGAINST THE MACHINE

02:15 - 16.675 AGAIN.

02:15 - 19.010 HE RAN AGAINST A DEMOCRATIC

02:15 - 21.379 ORGANIZATION, AGAINST AUDITOR

02:15 - 23.949 GENERAL CASEY IN '66.

02:15 - 25.550 MAYBE IT WAS STATE SENATOR CASEY

02:15 - 26.284 THEN.

02:15 - 28.653 AUDITOR GENERAL CASEY IN THE

02:15 - 29.821 YEAR 1970.

02:15 - 32.124 BUT AT ANY RATE I WAS ABLE TO

02:15 - 37.529 WIN THE PRIMARY, HAD SOME FAIRLY

02:15 - 41.500 TOUGH TIMES WITH GOVERNOR DICK

02:15 - 45.036 THORNBURGH ABOUT MY CANDIDACY.

02:15 - 47.072 BUT BACK TO RUNNING IN ALL 67

02:15 - 51.710 COUNTIES, IT HAD THAT PATINA OF

02:15 - 53.278 ENERGY.

02:15 - 55.113 ALSO, IT WAS A GREAT WAY TO BE

02:15 - 56.248 KNOWN.

02:15 - 57.682 HAVE A PRESS CONFERENCE IN

02:15 - 58.717 PHILADELPHIA, HAVE A

02:15 - 01.386 STREET-CORNER RALLY AT 15th AND

02:16 - 03.288 CHESTNUT, AND NOBODY WOULD COVER

02:16 - 04.055 YOU.

02:16 - 07.192 HAVE A TOWN MEETING IN POTTER

02:16 - 08.493 COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA, IN

02:16 - 10.295 COUDERSPORT, YOU'RE ON THE FRONT

02:16 - 11.530 PAGE OF THE NEWSPAPER.

02:16 - 15.200 WELL, YOU MULTIPLY THAT TIMES 50

02:16 - 17.469 SUBURBAN COUNTIES, AND YOU GET

02:16 - 19.070 TO BE KNOWN.

02:16 - 21.006 ALSO, IT TEACHES YOU WHAT PEOPLE

02:16 - 22.974 ARE THINKING ABOUT.

02:16 - 25.677 I LEARNED WHAT WAS ON THE MINDS

02:16 - 27.779 OF PENNSYLVANIANS.

02:16 - 29.447 AND I THEN MADE IT A PRACTICE TO

02:16 - 31.516 VISIT EVERY COUNTY EVERY YEAR

02:16 - 34.052 FOR YEARS SO THAT, REALLY, AT

02:16 - 35.620 THE END OF 30 YEARS, IT WAS

02:16 - 37.822 VIRTUALLY EVERY COUNTY EVERY

02:16 - 39.090 YEAR.

02:16 - 41.126 AND THAT ENABLED ME TO ANSWER A

02:16 - 42.661 LOT OF QUESTIONS WHEN I WAS ON

02:16 - 45.997 SUNDAY TALK SHOWS, WHEN

02:16 - 48.934 INQUIRING INTERVIEWERS -- TOUGH

02:16 - 50.468 PEOPLE LIKE YOU -- WOULD ASK ME

02:16 - 51.803 QUESTIONS.

02:16 - 54.005 I'D HAD A LOT OF PRACTICE.

02:16 - 57.309 OH, PAUL TAYLOR WAS THE

02:16 - 59.844 PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER POLITICAL

02:16 - 00.579 REPORTER.

02:17 - 01.947 AND AT THE END OF THE SUMMER, IN

02:17 - 04.349 SEPTEMBER, HE SAID HE CAME BACK

02:17 - 08.186 FROM A SUMMER OFF AND HIS DESK

02:17 - 11.022 WAS FULL OF NEWS RELEASES FROM

02:17 - 13.458 CANDIDATE ARLEN SPECTER AND

02:17 - 15.694 NOTHING FROM PETER FLAHERTY.

02:17 - 18.763 AND THAT WAS THE FORMULA TO

02:17 - 20.732 VICTORY.

02:17 - 22.100 >> YOU'D SAID THAT YOU'D RUN

02:17 - 23.668 BASICALLY AGAINST THE MACHINE IN

02:17 - 24.636 THE PRIMARY.

02:17 - 25.971 ONCE YOU WERE SUCCESSFUL IN THE

02:17 - 27.772 PRIMARY ELECTION, DID PARTY

02:17 - 29.107 OFFICIALS BACK YOU UP?

02:17 - 31.409 >> YES, THEY DID.

02:17 - 35.313 THEY WERE INTERESTED IN WINNING

02:17 - 37.382 A REPUBLICAN SEAT.

02:17 - 39.184 SENATOR HEINZ WAS THE CHAIRMAN

02:17 - 41.920 OF THE SENATORIAL CAMPAIGN

02:17 - 44.623 COMMITTEE, AND HE INVITED ME TO

02:17 - 45.423 WASHINGTON.

02:17 - 48.059 AND THEY PUT UP FINANCING.

02:17 - 52.764 THEY PUT UP $525,000.

02:17 - 55.900 MY CAMPAIGNS IN THE FUTURE COST

02:17 - 57.535 $15 MILLION, $20 MILLION.

02:17 - 59.537 THAT CAMPAIGN WAS LESS THAN $2

02:17 - 02.240 MILLION -- $1.9 MILLION.

02:18 - 04.843 AND THEY PUT UP $525,000, AND

02:18 - 07.312 THAT ENABLED ME TO GO ON

02:18 - 08.913 TELEVISION RIGHT AFTER LABOR

02:18 - 09.214 DAY.

02:18 - 11.583 AND THAT WAS A KEY FACTOR IN MY

02:18 - 13.218 SUCCESS.

02:18 - 14.319 >> WHAT WERE THE BIG ISSUES IN

02:18 - 17.122 THAT RACE?

02:18 - 21.960 >> THE BIG ISSUES WERE -- STEEL

02:18 - 24.829 INDUSTRY WAS HAVING A TOUGH TIME

02:18 - 28.300 WITH IMPORTS.

02:18 - 30.101 AGRICULTURE IS ALWAYS A BIG

02:18 - 30.969 ISSUE.

02:18 - 33.805 AGRICULTURE WAS PENNSYLVANIA'S

02:18 - 36.041 PREDOMINANT INDUSTRY.

02:18 - 37.642 MY BACKGROUND FROM KANSAS,

02:18 - 39.911 HAVING WORKED ON A FARM WHEN I

02:18 - 43.014 WAS 14, DRIVEN A TRACTOR, WAS

02:18 - 45.583 HELPFUL.

02:18 - 49.020 JOBS IS ALWAYS A BIG ISSUE.

02:18 - 50.822 CRIME CONTROL WAS AN ISSUE,

02:18 - 52.524 WHICH I HAD A LOT OF EXPERIENCE

02:18 - 54.526 ON, HAVING BEEN DISTRICT

02:18 - 58.897 ATTORNEY OF PHILADELPHIA.

02:18 - 01.399 AGAIN, I HAD POSITION PAPERS.

02:19 - 03.134 I'D DONE A LOT OF STUDY.

02:19 - 04.302 THIS IS SOMETHING I'D ALWAYS

02:19 - 04.602 DONE.

02:19 - 07.105 WHEN I RAN FOR MAYOR, I HAD

02:19 - 08.306 BLUEPRINTS FOR A BETTER

02:19 - 08.973 PHILADELPHIA.

02:19 - 11.309 I'VE ALWAYS BEEN VERY MUCH ON

02:19 - 12.911 THE SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES.

02:19 - 15.747 BUT MOSTLY IT WAS ABOUT ENERGY

02:19 - 17.482 AND ABOUT -- THAT IS, ARLEN

02:19 - 19.851 SPECTER'S ENERGY.

02:19 - 22.187 I HAD A CONVERSATION WHICH HAS

02:19 - 24.422 BEEN QUOTED A FEW TIMES.

02:19 - 26.624 THERE WAS A FELLA NAMED DICK

02:19 - 28.326 FENNO WHO WAS A PROFESSOR FROM

02:19 - 30.862 POLITICAL SCIENCE FROM ROCHESTER

02:19 - 32.130 WHO COVERED THE CAMPAIGN.

02:19 - 34.399 HE LATER WROTE A BOOK ABOUT MY

02:19 - 37.869 FIRST TERM IN THE SENATE.

02:19 - 40.672 AND WE WERE RIDING ALONG HIGHWAY

02:19 - 44.242 80 ONE NIGHT IN A RAINSTORM, AND

02:19 - 45.510 HE WAS COVERING ME ON THE

02:19 - 46.811 CAMPAIGN.

02:19 - 48.913 HE WAS INTERVIEWING ME.

02:19 - 50.315 AND HE SAID, "DON'T YOU EVER GET

02:19 - 51.816 DISCOURAGED?"

02:19 - 54.052 AND I SAID TO HIM, "NO, DICK, I

02:19 - 55.487 DON'T DISCOURAGE EASILY.

02:19 - 57.122 IN FACT, I DON'T GET DISCOURAGED

02:19 - 58.857 AT ALL."

02:19 - 01.359 THAT MIGHT SOUND A LITTLE PUFFY,

02:20 - 06.865 BUT THAT'S ONE OF MY MANTRAS --

02:20 - 09.300 TO STAY WITH IT.

02:20 - 10.602 >> HOW DID YOU FIND OUT THAT YOU

02:20 - 12.904 WON THE SENATE SEAT?

02:20 - 14.372 >> HOW DID I FIND OUT?

02:20 - 15.740 I STAYED UP LATE AND WATCHED THE

02:20 - 18.643 TELEVISION RETURNS.

02:20 - 19.778 >> AT WHAT POINT DID IT REALLY

02:20 - 21.713 SINK IN THAT YOU WERE GOING TO

02:20 - 23.014 THE U.S. SENATE AND THAT YOU'D

02:20 - 23.915 BE SERVING?

02:20 - 25.183 >> IT SANK IN THE NEXT MORNING.

02:20 - 27.218 I WAS LIVING ON WARDEN DRIVE.

02:20 - 29.621 AND I REMEMBER GETTING OUT OF

02:20 - 31.990 BED THE NEXT MORNING AND SAYING,

02:20 - 35.894 "UNITED STATES SENATE."

02:20 - 41.766 IT WAS SORT OF A DREAM COME

02:20 - 44.436 TRUE.

02:20 - 48.940 IT WAS A LONG, TOUGH BATTLE.

02:20 - 50.308 AND I HAD BEEN INTERESTED IN

02:20 - 52.510 POLITICS SINCE I WAS KNEE-HIGH

02:20 - 55.513 TO A GRASSHOPPER.

02:20 - 56.848 AS I MAY HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE,

02:20 - 00.151 MY FATHER WAS VERY INTERESTED IN

02:21 - 01.586 POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT.

02:21 - 03.555 HE HAD LIVED UNDER THE CZAR'S

02:21 - 04.322 HEEL IN RUSSIA.

02:21 - 05.824 HE KNEW HOW IMPORTANT GOVERNMENT

02:21 - 06.791 WAS.

02:21 - 08.660 HE'D GONE THROUGH A DEPRESSION.

02:21 - 10.161 HERBERT HOOVER WAS THE VILLAIN

02:21 - 11.529 IN THE SPECTER HOUSEHOLD.

02:21 - 13.965 FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT WAS THE HERO.

02:21 - 16.634 HE SHOOK AL SMITH'S HAND AT THE

02:21 - 19.804 WICHITA TRAIN STATION IN 1928,

02:21 - 21.239 TALKED ABOUT IT FOR YEARS.

02:21 - 22.974 I WASN'T EVEN BORN THERE.

02:21 - 24.509 I HEARD ABOUT IT MANY TIMES

02:21 - 25.677 OVER.

02:21 - 27.612 AND I'D ALWAYS ASPIRED TO BE

02:21 - 31.349 PRESIDENT -- IN THE EYES OF MY

02:21 - 34.118 FATHER, PRESIDENTIAL TIMBER.

02:21 - 35.420 MY MOTHER TOLD ME I COULD BE

02:21 - 37.355 ANYTHING I WANTED TO DO.

02:21 - 38.823 "SHE GAVE ME BAD ADVICE," I

02:21 - 41.860 JOKINGLY SAY, BECAUSE SHE TOLD

02:21 - 43.094 ME I COULD EVEN BE PRESIDENT,

02:21 - 45.563 AND SHE WAS WRONG.

02:21 - 48.066 BUT I LATER FOUND OUT FROM MY

02:21 - 50.235 AUNT ANN THAT MY FATHER HAD

02:21 - 52.670 NEVER TOLD ME THAT HE ASPIRED

02:21 - 53.771 FOR ME TO BE IN THE UNITED

02:21 - 55.406 STATES SENATE, BUT MY AUNT ANN

02:21 - 57.275 TOLD ME THAT THAT WAS HIS

02:21 - 58.209 ASPIRATION.

02:21 - 02.080 BUT IT WAS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY,

02:22 - 04.482 A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO ADDRESS

02:22 - 08.253 THE BIG ISSUES OF THE DAY,

02:22 - 09.254 GREAT OPPORTUNITY.

02:22 - 11.523 >> WHERE WERE YOUR PRIORITIES

02:22 - 12.991 GOING INTO THE SENATE?

02:22 - 15.093 >> EVERYTHING.

02:22 - 18.029 EVERYTHING.

02:22 - 21.099 I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE

02:22 - 23.968 ECONOMY AND THE STEEL INDUSTRY.

02:22 - 25.970 I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT TAKING A

02:22 - 28.606 SPOT ON THE AGRICULTURE

02:22 - 30.808 SUBCOMMITTEE OF APPROPRIATIONS.

02:22 - 32.844 I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE

02:22 - 34.345 JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, GOOD

02:22 - 35.713 JUDGES.

02:22 - 37.148 I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT FOREIGN

02:22 - 43.121 POLICY, BEING HELPFUL TO ISRAEL

02:22 - 46.824 AS OUR STRONG ALLY, TO, FRANKLY,

02:22 - 49.761 SPREADING MY WINGS AND TACKLING

02:22 - 52.397 THE WHOLE BROAD RANGE OF

02:22 - 54.766 NATIONAL, INTERNATIONAL, AND

02:22 - 57.135 LOCAL PROBLEMS.

02:22 - 58.269 >> WHAT WERE YOUR EARLY

02:22 - 59.604 OBSERVATIONS THE FIRST TIME YOU

02:22 - 02.674 WALKED INTO THE U.S. CAPITOL?

02:23 - 08.346 >> WHEN I REALIZED THAT I WAS

02:23 - 09.981 ELECTED TO THE UNITED STATES

02:23 - 12.817 SENATE, THERE WERE MANY THINGS

02:23 - 15.386 WHICH CROSSED MY MIND.

02:23 - 18.122 JUDGE BORK LATER SAID IN HIS

02:23 - 19.958 CONFIRMATION HEARINGS THAT HE

02:23 - 21.192 WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO THE

02:23 - 23.795 SUPREME COURT AS AN INTELLECTUAL

02:23 - 25.063 FEAST.

02:23 - 26.731 GOT HIM INTO A LOT OF TROUBLE,

02:23 - 29.701 BUT REALISTICALLY, THAT IS ONE

02:23 - 31.836 ASPECT BECAUSE OF THE BREADTH OF

02:23 - 35.239 THE ISSUES.

02:23 - 38.943 IT ALSO PROVIDED AN OPPORTUNITY

02:23 - 41.813 FOR THE TRAINING THAT I HAD

02:23 - 44.482 UNDERTAKEN FOR YEARS, STARTING

02:23 - 46.618 WITH HIGH SCHOOL DEBATE AND

02:23 - 48.186 COLLEGE DEBATE AND BEING AN

02:23 - 50.388 ASSISTANT D.A., QUESTIONING

02:23 - 52.190 WITNESSES, CROSS-EXAMINING

02:23 - 54.258 WITNESSES, AND THEN THE WORK

02:23 - 55.727 THAT I HAD DONE ON SUBSTANTIVE

02:23 - 58.262 ISSUES AS DISTRICT ATTORNEY, ON

02:23 - 00.465 CRIME CONTROL, WHEN I HAD IDEAS

02:24 - 02.800 ABOUT THE ARMED CAREER CRIMINAL

02:24 - 04.068 BILL.

02:24 - 06.037 THE STATE COURTS WERE GIVING

02:24 - 08.072 VIOLENT CRIMINALS PROBATION, AND

02:24 - 10.875 I HAD AN IDEA TO TAKE CAREER

02:24 - 12.510 CRIMINALS INTO THE FEDERAL COURT

02:24 - 14.779 FOR LIFE SENTENCES, AND I GOT

02:24 - 17.281 THAT LEGISLATION PASSED.

02:24 - 19.884 AND KIDNAPPING AND HIJACKINGS

02:24 - 22.353 WERE PREVALENT IN THE EARLY '80s

02:24 - 23.588 WHEN I WAS IN THE SENATE.

02:24 - 25.857 AND I HAD IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO

02:24 - 29.060 DEAL WITH TERRORISM, WHAT WE

02:24 - 31.229 CALL EXTRATERRITORIAL

02:24 - 32.163 JURISDICTION.

02:24 - 33.297 WE HAD TO PASS SPECIAL

02:24 - 35.633 LEGISLATION TO GIVE UNITED

02:24 - 37.502 STATES COURTS JURISDICTION FOR A

02:24 - 40.038 HIJACKER WHO TOOK AMERICAN

02:24 - 43.708 CITIZENS CAPTIVE.

02:24 - 48.713 AND THEN THE BROAD RANGE OF

02:24 - 52.016 INTERNATIONAL PROBLEMS WAS

02:24 - 52.684 PHENOMENAL.

02:24 - 55.653 I CHOSE THE FOREIGN RELATIONSHIP

02:24 - 58.289 SUBCOMMITTEE OF APPROPRIATES,

02:24 - 59.824 WHICH GOT ME INVOLVED OF THE

02:24 - 04.595 PROBLEMS OF PALESTINIAN ISSUES

02:25 - 07.065 AND ARMS CONTROL.

02:25 - 08.399 >> WHO WERE YOUR CONTEMPORARIES

02:25 - 10.635 WHEN YOU FIRST WERE ELECTED?

02:25 - 11.335 >> WELL, ONE OF MY

02:25 - 13.538 CONTEMPORARIES WAS

02:25 - 14.739 RONALD REAGAN.

02:25 - 17.442 I HAD A LOT OF INTERACTION WITH

02:25 - 19.844 PRESIDENT REAGAN IN MY OFFICE.

02:25 - 21.713 I HAVE A LOT OF PICTURES WITH

02:25 - 24.782 PRESIDENT REAGAN, ONE WHERE I'M

02:25 - 28.753 CONFRONTING HIM WHEN I WAS TOLD

02:25 - 30.588 IF I DIDN'T VOTE FOR THE MX,

02:25 - 31.956 PRESIDENT REAGAN WASN'T GONNA

02:25 - 34.025 COME TO PHILADELPHIA AND RAISE

02:25 - 37.161 $1 MILLION FOR ME.

02:25 - 39.030 ANOTHER PICTURE WHEN I WAS

02:25 - 41.099 SITTING BESIDE HIM IN THOSE TWO

02:25 - 43.601 FAMOUS CHAIRS, AND HE WAS TRYING

02:25 - 45.803 TO PERSUADE ME TO VOTE FOR

02:25 - 47.872 SCHOOL PRAYER.

02:25 - 50.575 ANOTHER WHERE I'M AT A PODIUM

02:25 - 53.044 SPEAKING AND HE'S SITTING AT A

02:25 - 53.845 CHAIR LISTENING.

02:25 - 55.680 I WAS THE SPOKESMAN FOR THE

02:25 - 57.415 CLASS BECAUSE I WAS BOTTOM OF

02:25 - 59.383 SENIORITY.

02:25 - 03.287 BESIDES PRESIDENT REAGAN OR THE

02:26 - 04.789 OTHER PEOPLE I FOUND IN THE

02:26 - 08.392 SENATE, AN ALL-STAR CAST.

02:26 - 12.029 THERE WAS HOWARD BAKER AND

02:26 - 17.435 BOD DOLE AND TED KENNEDY

02:26 - 19.871 AND ROBERT BYRD

02:26 - 25.343 AND "SCOOP" JACKSON AND A

02:26 - 32.984 CAST OF 99 SUPERSTARS.

02:26 - 34.318 ALL OF THE NEWLY ELECTED

02:26 - 37.021 SENATORS ARE ASSIGNED THE JOB OF

02:26 - 39.624 PRESIDING OVER THE SENATE.

02:26 - 41.025 AND THERE'S A PARLIAMENTARIAN

02:26 - 43.027 WHO SITS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF

02:26 - 45.663 THE PRESIDING SENATOR.

02:26 - 46.764 VICE PRESIDENT OF THE

02:26 - 48.866 CONSTITUTION PRESIDES OVER THE

02:26 - 50.802 SENATE, AND THE VICE PRESIDENT

02:26 - 52.270 COMES IN FOR CEREMONIAL

02:26 - 54.172 FUNCTIONS, AND IF THEY EXPECT A

02:26 - 56.307 TIE, HE CAN CAST THE

02:26 - 57.375 TIE-BREAKING VOTE, BUT

02:26 - 00.578 OTHERWISE, IT IS DELEGATED TO

02:27 - 02.980 THE JUNIOR SENATORS.

02:27 - 06.884 BUT I WOULD SAY THE SENATORS

02:27 - 08.319 HANDING DOWN RULINGS ON

02:27 - 09.854 TECHNICAL MATTERS THAT I DIDN'T

02:27 - 12.089 KNOW, AND THEN I SHORTLY

02:27 - 14.358 THEREAFTER FOUND OUT THAT THE

02:27 - 17.929 PRESIDING JUNIOR SENATOR WILL

02:27 - 20.464 FUNCTION WITH A VENTRILOQUIST.

02:27 - 24.502 A PARLIAMENTARIAN TOLD HIM WHAT

02:27 - 26.637 TO SAY.

02:27 - 29.006 AND I WOULD SIT THERE.

02:27 - 31.843 AND MY FEELING WAS IT WAS LIKE

02:27 - 32.743 VALHALLA.

02:27 - 34.412 THERE ARE ALL OF THESE GUYS I'D

02:27 - 38.616 READ ABOUT -- JESSE HELMS WAS

02:27 - 42.720 THERE AND DALE BUMPERS WAS THERE

02:27 - 47.358 AND JOHN STENNIS AND THE

02:27 - 49.327 LEGENDARY NAMES THAT I'D READ

02:27 - 52.763 ABOUT FOREVER, LIKE THE VALHALLA

02:27 - 55.099 GODS.

02:27 - 55.933 >> DO YOU REMEMBER THE FIRST

02:27 - 57.235 TIME YOU WENT TO THE CAPITOL AS

02:27 - 00.438 A SENATOR-ELECT?

02:28 - 03.474 >> MY FIRST RECOLLECTION OF

02:28 - 06.310 BEING IN THE CAPITOL WAS REALLY

02:28 - 12.483 ON THE SWEARING-IN DAY, WHICH

02:28 - 14.085 WAS A BIG DAY.

02:28 - 17.822 AND WE MARCHED DOWN THE AISLE IN

02:28 - 19.991 GROUPS OF FOUR.

02:28 - 22.360 AND AFTER THE OATH OF OFFICE WAS

02:28 - 24.929 TAKEN, WE THEN WENT OVER TO THE

02:28 - 27.365 OLD SENATE CHAMBER FOR THE

02:28 - 29.500 PHOTOGRAPHIC SESSION.

02:28 - 35.273 AND VICE PRESIDENT MONDALE WAS

02:28 - 37.441 FINISHING UP THE CARTER

02:28 - 39.210 ADMINISTRATION.

02:28 - 40.411 ADMINISTERED THE OATH BOTH IN

02:28 - 44.916 THE SENATE CHAMBER AND FOR

02:28 - 46.851 PHOTOGRAPH PURPOSES IN THE OLD

02:28 - 49.287 SENATE CHAMBER, AND IT WAS QUITE

02:28 - 49.687 A MOMENT.

02:28 - 51.822 AND I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH OF MY

02:28 - 54.525 OFFICE, OF JOAN,

02:28 - 55.559 MY TWO SONS,

02:28 - 01.732 AND ME WITH MONDALE

02:29 - 04.368 ADMINISTERING THE OATH, AND --

02:29 - 05.770 GREAT FEELING.

02:29 - 07.571 >> 1980 WAS A BIG YEAR FOR

02:29 - 10.641 REPUBLICANS IN ELECTIONS.

02:29 - 11.943 WHO WERE SOME OF THE FRESHMEN

02:29 - 13.544 WHO CAME IN WITH YOU?

02:29 - 15.446 >> THERE WERE 16 FRESHMEN

02:29 - 19.884 ELECTED WITH PRESIDENT REAGAN --

02:29 - 22.253 WARREN RUDMAN OF NEW HAMPSHIRE,

02:29 - 25.623 SLADE GORTON OF WASHINGTON,

02:29 - 28.326 AL D'AMATO OF NEW YORK,

02:29 - 31.963 JIM ABDNOR OF SOUTH DAKOTA,

02:29 - 34.265 MARK ANDREWS OF NORTH DAKOTA,

02:29 - 37.735 DAN QUAYLE OF INDIANA,

02:29 - 41.739 PAULA HAWKINS OF FLORIDA,

02:29 - 44.308 JOHN EAST OF NORTH CAROLINA,

02:29 - 47.979 MACK MATTINGLY OF GEORGIA,

02:29 - 54.118 CHUCK GRASSLEY OF IOWA,

02:29 - 57.254 TO START WITH.

02:29 - 58.889 >> DID YOU MOVE TO WASHINGTON?

02:29 - 59.991 DID YOU GET A PLACE IN

02:29 - 01.392 WASHINGTON?

02:30 - 02.326 >> JOAN AND I BOUGHT A

02:30 - 07.098 CONDOMINIUM IN NOVEMBER/DECEMBER

02:30 - 09.233 OF 1980.

02:30 - 10.434 IT WAS UNDER CONSTRUCTION.

02:30 - 11.969 IT HAD A GREAT VIEW OF THE

02:30 - 13.738 POTOMAC.

02:30 - 15.906 A LITTLE APARTMENT HOUSE CALLED

02:30 - 17.575 JAMES PLACE, WHICH WAS JUST

02:30 - 20.044 GOING UP, SO WE WERE ABLE TO

02:30 - 21.679 TAILOR THE APARTMENT TO OUR

02:30 - 23.014 LIKING.

02:30 - 25.950 AND THE VIEW WAS LATER

02:30 - 29.320 OBSTRUCTED BY BUILDINGS AND THE

02:30 - 31.222 DEVELOPMENT OF THAT AREA.

02:30 - 33.924 AND WE FOUND IT VERY COMFORTABLE

02:30 - 36.427 FOR THE ENTIRE TENURE IN THE

02:30 - 37.261 SOUTH.

02:30 - 38.095 >> HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOU

02:30 - 39.764 WERE ELECTED TO THE SENATE?

02:30 - 41.432 >> I WAS 50.

02:30 - 42.566 >> DID YOUR SONS MOVE TO

02:30 - 44.035 WASHINGTON WITH YOU?

02:30 - 46.470 >> NO, OUR SONS WERE BOTH

02:30 - 48.672 ADULTS.

02:30 - 51.108 OUR YOUNGER SON, STEVE, WAS 20,

02:30 - 53.310 AND OUR OLDER SON, SHANIN, WAS

02:30 - 56.080 23, SO THEY WERE IN COLLEGE,

02:30 - 58.983 GRADUATE SCHOOL, AND MOVING

02:30 - 00.751 AHEAD AT A RAPID PACE ON LIVES

02:31 - 02.520 OF THEIR OWN.

02:31 - 03.254 >> HOW DID YOU GET TO WORK IN

02:31 - 05.523 THE MORNING?

02:31 - 08.492 >> I DROVE MYSELF FROM JAMES

02:31 - 14.932 PLACE TO THE SENATE IN A 1976

02:31 - 17.735 JAGUAR, WHICH I HAD PURCHASED AS

02:31 - 21.472 A PRESENT TO MYSELF --

02:31 - 24.241 ON MAY 1

02:31 - 26.644 OF 1976, I HAD LOST A CLOSE

02:31 - 29.113 ELECTION TO JOHN HEINZ IN THE

02:31 - 30.948 REPUBLICAN PRIMARY FOR SENATE,

02:31 - 33.250 AND I DECIDED TO BUY MYSELF A

02:31 - 34.518 PRESENT.

02:31 - 35.653 SINCE I WASN'T GONNA BE A

02:31 - 38.522 SENATOR, I COULD AFFORD IT.

02:31 - 40.024 >> NOW, WHEN YOU'RE A BRAND-NEW

02:31 - 42.693 SENATOR AND YOU WALK IN, HOW DO

02:31 - 44.295 YOU START THE JOB?

02:31 - 45.296 WHAT ARE THE FIRST THINGS YOU

02:31 - 46.464 DO?

02:31 - 48.666 >> FIRST THING TO DO IS TO

02:31 - 51.502 ASSEMBLE A STAFF.

02:31 - 55.706 AND I RELIED HEAVILY ON

02:31 - 58.042 SENATOR JAVITS OF OUR OLD STAFF.

02:31 - 00.744 HE HAD BEEN IN THE SENATE FOR 24

02:32 - 03.447 YEARS AND VERY DISTINGUISHED AND

02:32 - 04.949 HAD A LOT OF CONFIDENCE.

02:32 - 07.651 AND SOME OF HIS PEOPLE -- I

02:32 - 09.220 HIRED SOME.

02:32 - 11.622 I HAD QUITE A STAFF WHEN I WAS

02:32 - 13.524 DISTRICT ATTORNEY.

02:32 - 15.359 AND I BROUGHT IN SOME OF MY

02:32 - 18.329 EX-STAFFERS FROM THE OLD D.A.'S

02:32 - 19.130 OFFICE.

02:32 - 21.665 ONE OF THE KEY PEOPLE I BROUGHT

02:32 - 23.100 IN WAS A FELLOW NAMED PAUL

02:32 - 26.403 MICHEL, WHO HAD BEEN AN

02:32 - 28.472 ASSISTANT D.A.

02:32 - 31.842 LATER, HE WAS APPOINTED TO THE

02:32 - 33.544 FEDERAL CIRCUIT COURT AND BECAME

02:32 - 34.812 THE CHIEF JUDGE AND HAS HAD A

02:32 - 36.780 VERY, VERY DISTINGUISHED

02:32 - 39.617 JUDICIAL CAREER.

02:32 - 42.653 AND I HAD A LOT OF APPLICATIONS

02:32 - 45.856 AND HAD A STAFF OF DISTRICT

02:32 - 50.194 OFFICES IN ERIE AND WILKES-BARRE

02:32 - 52.029 AND SCRANTON AND THE LEHIGH

02:32 - 53.664 VALLEY AND HARRISBURG AND

02:32 - 55.432 PITTSBURGH, AS WELL AS

02:32 - 56.100 PHILADELPHIA.

02:32 - 57.568 AND AT THE OUTSET I WAS

02:32 - 59.103 CONCERNED ABOUT CONSTITUENT

02:32 - 00.671 SERVICE.

02:33 - 06.644 I HAD SOME GOOD INFORMATION

02:33 - 09.013 ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF

02:33 - 12.516 CONSTITUENT SERVICE AND HIRED A

02:33 - 14.785 GOOD STAFF.

02:33 - 15.853 >> WHERE WAS YOUR OFFICE IN

02:33 - 17.621 WASHINGTON?

02:33 - 19.924 >> MY FIRST OFFICE WAS IN THE

02:33 - 21.692 RUSSELL BUILDING, WHICH WAS THE

02:33 - 23.160 OLDEST OF THE SENATE OFFICE

02:33 - 27.131 BUILDINGS, CONSTRUCTED IN 1909.

02:33 - 31.302 AND I WAS THERE FOR A TIME AND

02:33 - 34.371 THEN MOVED OVER TO THE HART

02:33 - 35.372 SENATE OFFICE BUILDING.

02:33 - 36.407 >> IS THAT PREFERABLE?

02:33 - 37.474 IS THAT HIGHER UP ON THE PECKING

02:33 - 39.276 ORDER, THE HART BUILDING?

02:33 - 40.277 >> WELL, NO.

02:33 - 45.916 IT'S A NEWER BUILDING, BUT A LOT

02:33 - 50.921 OF THE SENATORS LIKE THE OLD

02:33 - 52.022 SENATE OFFICE BUILDING.

02:33 - 54.525 IT HAS A LOT OF TRADITION, A LOT

02:33 - 56.427 OF CHARM.

02:33 - 57.728 THERE'S A PLAQUE ON THE

02:33 - 00.197 THIRD-FLOOR OFFICE OF SENATOR

02:34 - 02.866 JOHN F. KENNEDY.

02:34 - 06.870 THERE IS NOW A PLAQUE ON THE