00:00 - This is the all history of joseph joseph s and irene gangs.

00:05 - They are the owners and participants and

00:08 - primary owner in fact the owners.

00:10 - Of against multimedia a multiple system operator.

00:14 - Headquartered

00:15 - in hazleton.

00:16 - Pennsylvania.

00:18 - Of.

00:19 - The date is august third.

00:22 - Twenty one one the place is gettysburg.

00:24 - At the annual meeting of the pennsylvania cable and telecommunications associations.

00:30 - Heritage meeting.

00:32 - Joe.

00:33 - Is a cable pioneer in both the.

00:36 - Upper case

00:37 - p and lower case he's both a

00:39 - pioneer

00:40 - recognize as a pioneer and actually a very

00:44 - early pioneer of the cable television industry.

00:47 - Joe let's start out by giving a brief.

00:49 - History of your background prior to getting into cable television.

00:53 - Well

00:54 - above I know it before we get into this I know you did a an extensive interview with

00:58 - stretch smith in october of nineteen eighty nine.

01:01 - And I would recommend that anyone viewing this history also

01:05 - review that oral history for a lot of the details so we may not cover today

01:09 - so please just give us a capital of your well what

01:11 - my made me into this.

01:13 - As a little kid I enjoyed.

01:16 - These so-called crystal radios in fact.

01:19 - From

01:19 - my mother's house.

01:21 - I had a why are hanging all way back into the backyard because the longer it was.

01:25 - The easier it was to get radio signals

01:27 - and me and

01:28 - I believe it or not brian.

01:31 - A lot months I guess it was his uncle.

01:34 - We used to sit there only had to set of earphones and we.

01:37 - Crystal play play with a crystal sets.

01:40 - So then when I was inducted

01:41 - into the service in the army.

01:44 - I guess that was nineteen

01:46 - forty four.

01:48 - And.

01:49 - I was fortunate enough I got into the army signal corps.

01:53 - Was saying that you

01:54 - are meeting.

01:56 - Signal division of the ninety fourth division.

01:59 - And.

02:00 - Some of the things that happen there.

02:03 - Would you I dunno how you relate to the cable system but.

02:06 - We.

02:06 - Used the same code back and for

02:08 - it

02:08 - and we never knew what we're standing because everything was coated.

02:12 - And.

02:13 - Anyhow

02:14 - but you know about long distant transmission and reception right

02:17 - and but

02:18 - another and just think thing though.

02:20 - Is when we

02:21 - actually have

02:22 - we're going into czechoslovakia.

02:24 - In

02:25 - I was there at the end of the or not the beginning and.

02:27 - The guys in our division.

02:29 - Find that that's what

02:30 - we'd put the.

02:32 - Antennas up on top of the mountain.

02:34 - May have to

02:35 - trucks there

02:36 - and no sooner we turn to

02:37 - darn

02:38 - transmitters on the eighty eights were shooting and blowing us up.

02:41 - So maybe.

02:43 - How this relates to cable I dunno what we did then we put the powers on top of the

02:47 - mountain but we put the trucks now the bottom of the hill.

02:50 - Rerun the why.

02:51 - The

02:52 - shooter we didn't care.

02:53 - But you are you to take electronics and high school and you've.

02:57 - Done various electronic courses.

02:59 - At diverse universities including penn state that

03:01 - well anyhow I got home.

03:03 - In my instructor at name men and

03:06 - tris solution.

03:07 - He owes instruct their in the government

03:09 - teaching electronics and fill that name please.

03:12 - L u c I a and

03:14 - lucien.

03:15 - And anyhow.

03:17 - I went to school with him and

03:18 - oh I love to have to admit the.

03:20 - Radio was my thing.

03:22 - And

03:23 - so come.

03:25 - Guess was november of nineteen fifty.

03:29 - Know even sooner maybe september nineteen fifty.

03:32 - He told me about it.

03:34 - He knew of a guiding him by bob tartan.

03:37 - That was inland sport and he was.

03:39 - Bring and pictures down

03:41 - with amplifiers into town.

03:43 - In the meantime we were in a cable or the television business and I was putting the

03:46 - towers up.

03:47 - The didn't take me long to learn that are trying to sell television sets were they

03:51 - didn't get any segue they get getting a cigarette

03:53 - and when we sell 'em if we.

03:55 - Hazel if you notice is a mountainous area

03:58 - and if people that live on top of the hills they got good television but those behind

04:02 - the hills and get nothing.

04:03 - And.

04:05 - Watch it enough

04:06 - of the first.

04:07 - Tv store that we built

04:09 - was built up a ninth street and hazel on top of the mountain.

04:12 - And we had

04:13 - pretty good pictures up there.

04:15 - In the peace it'll come in and

04:17 - he'd see it and

04:18 - we sold some of the sites.

04:20 - In

04:21 - any channels could ticket up on here.

04:23 - We've got

04:23 - three six and ten.

04:25 - In once in awhile would get the new york pictures.

04:28 - I wonder if that's that's a separate story I want to go into that new york saturation

04:31 - and then a.

04:33 - So

04:33 - when tris.

04:35 - I I finished school old and.

04:36 - If the I guess it was

04:38 - forty nine fifty

04:39 - he told me about bob

04:40 - totaling know what they're doing with that

04:42 - you said he's going to try to put a company together and hazel.

04:46 - In the would I be interested in joining him.

04:49 - And I.

04:50 - I was mediocre every.

04:51 - Cause r t v business so it's good my wife was running into.

04:55 - The shop and everyday lsc keeps telling me she was the brains behind he was.

04:59 - Well.

05:00 - She she did all the bookkeeping the record keeping emmerdale so as I

05:03 - the answering service.

05:05 - I was climbing the towers.

05:07 - So anyhow.

05:09 - We were selling focal television sets at the time.

05:13 - And.

05:14 - I'd say it was september yeah

05:16 - I went down in pottsville.

05:18 - And marty malarkey

05:20 - happened to beat philco distributor

05:22 - and I wouldn't enter in.

05:24 - The first thing I heard from him out his name cable company it's not working good.

05:29 - Pictures are no good

05:30 - I said what do you mean cable company.

05:32 - You said well we have

05:33 - it was an artsy a system

05:35 - we have a.

05:37 - And

05:37 - and ten up on a mountain someplace and we're bringing these channels it

05:41 - but the.

05:42 - System wasn't reliable.

05:43 - So I figured holy smokes if you know pottsville that's down in the whole.

05:47 - You know there's there's no reception area of.

05:50 - And so I figured boy if

05:52 - he can

05:53 - get pictures down here that must be something to these cable thing.

05:56 - So I have up

05:57 - to motorists okay I'll go to work for you.

05:59 - And my brothers then.

06:01 - I read run the

06:02 - t v store but I started with the cable company so you started over atlanta where does

06:06 - that it no no in hazleton hazelton.

06:09 - There was a

06:09 - of the bachelor was in operation and they were doing it.

06:12 - I never saw his pictures but I did see the pictures and

06:15 - in pottsville and lansford I guess you know also

06:18 - in the bottom of the

06:19 - who are who owns the system hazelton at that time at that time then.

06:22 - That's when they were starting to develop it as your starting to the of up.

06:25 - So

06:26 - he tried to get a local broadcaster guided by the name of it the

06:30 - and I guess it was the tito family

06:32 - and

06:33 - they were wishy-washy.

06:35 - And and in the meantime.

06:37 - Is

06:37 - korea family they weren't in the cold business in hazel.

06:41 - And

06:42 - for

06:42 - one night.

06:44 - It was

06:44 - I forget the fight it was anyhow

06:46 - they came up

06:47 - to our shop

06:48 - and we had tv sets there.

06:50 - When we they saw the fight.

06:52 - In

06:53 - there oh well

06:53 - well

06:54 - well to do family

06:56 - and

06:56 - so tris talk to

06:57 - and where was the fight

06:59 - coming from.

07:00 - I get

07:01 - my new york.

07:02 - New york and the manga madison square garden something like that something i'm

07:05 - channeling limerick kps

07:06 - yeah I think so.

07:08 - Anyhow they saw it and then

07:10 - they told chris well that I invest the money into this thing

07:13 - and will get the.

07:15 - Cable system it and hazel

07:17 - but you weren't involved as a

07:19 - partner or an equity partner or know who you

07:21 - that time as a chief engineer at the time.

07:24 - And we started out with

07:26 - three channels.

07:27 - And

07:28 - this is an interesting one.

07:29 - We get the equipment

07:31 - we put the towers up on

07:32 - the sat

07:33 - in the hazel in which wasn't the bed the place

07:35 - is

07:36 - wasn't as good as an outside.

07:38 - But anyhow we we.

07:40 - Have put the amplifiers and get the pictures.

07:43 - Are coming down through what we call the heights.

07:46 - In up there they got some.

07:48 - Reception out of philadelphia but not much

07:51 - and how long are we.

07:52 - Turned it on.

07:54 - All of a sudden.

07:55 - We had well as that I later five out what they called radiation airlines are leaking

07:59 - and people got a black bar down to the cited or screen.

08:03 - And.

08:04 - Owed have fallen start ringing what.

08:06 - This cable company colored and yeah we just got started running at it by.

08:09 - Maybe

08:10 - a mile or wire in there.

08:12 - And so.

08:14 - More television than they've ever seen before the oh yeah yeah.

08:17 - In.

08:19 - The word got out that we can get pictures now into where

08:22 - people can get reception

08:24 - but we are.

08:25 - Interfering with the people who they'd get

08:27 - reception oh I see.

08:29 - That's.

08:30 - The big black bar on the screen.

08:32 - So anyhow.

08:34 - I call up the gerald guys up

08:36 - and we had

08:37 - a

08:37 - it

08:37 - technicians working with me.

08:39 - And you were using girl equipment that

08:41 - oh yeah yeah.

08:42 - And

08:43 - every channel strip amplifiers that each channel are looking go channel amplifiers

08:47 - and.

08:48 - Anyhow

08:49 - guy comes up

08:50 - and

08:51 - he's derivatives

08:52 - came on a monday.

08:54 - I forget who was is in the fall he had his big long overcoat and east riding.

08:58 - If you're a boy this guy knows what he's doing he's going to fix this you know.

09:02 - And

09:03 - I'll come friday

09:04 - to remember who it was.

09:05 - No I wish.

09:06 - I could I get the name to you

09:08 - but anyhow.

09:09 - He

09:10 - goes like

09:10 - you say yep joe you got radiation gets his car goes oh.

09:16 - So what do you do you can do anything about bible left alone but he knew

09:19 - to below yeah.

09:21 - So anyhow.

09:22 - We

09:23 - are a marvelous stymied for a little while their cause

09:25 - gotten expand too much and then

09:27 - a guy by the name of.

09:29 - Tony

09:29 - katana came up.

09:31 - And what we start doing that is.

09:33 - Disconnecting

09:34 - different cables

09:35 - and here we found that.

09:37 - Geral at that time had the amplifier on one side of the pole

09:41 - and.

09:42 - The distribution amplifier on the other side

09:47 - of the pull in the cable in between the two

09:48 - was the culprit that was leaking.

09:50 - And so as we disconnect that the.

09:53 - Pictures cleared up the bar disappeared and we hooked up

09:56 - in

09:56 - to believe it or not tony that he got a piece of.

09:59 - Oh it looks like half inch lead wire

10:02 - telephone wire.

10:03 - We took.

10:04 - Cut it and.

10:05 - Pull all of the strips editor

10:08 - put the connectors on

10:09 - and at stopped radiation.

10:11 - Which could have been I say

10:13 - the beginning of

10:14 - double shield cable

10:15 - what were you doing

10:16 - all this time I read

10:17 - and meant that time.

10:19 - And seventy these deaths than.

10:21 - Running the the.

10:22 - Business yeah.

10:24 - I mean when he left there is no limit with mountain city.

10:27 - Is better at and teddy were still with us then they did the work or

10:30 - tower is up and.

10:32 - And then we were selling t v seth and they've installed them.

10:36 - And I took care of the shop and my two children and ran the business.

10:39 - Was at all.

10:42 - As the telephone segala phone messages

10:44 - when did you become

10:45 - an order of the hazelton system.

10:48 - Or.

10:49 - Many years later

10:50 - but it an engineer has never to owner of it

10:53 - is.

10:54 - Just.

10:55 - Was in charge of the construction and so forth like that.

10:58 - And one day interesting things that

11:00 - we did too to in the.

11:02 - The same time while over up on the south

11:04 - into town with the antennas.

11:06 - In

11:06 - a up where I lived on ninth street.

11:09 - I used to pick up the new york channels and I had the

11:11 - yankee ballgames.

11:13 - And.

11:14 - Whereas on the

11:15 - southside they were

11:17 - mediocre.

11:18 - So anyhow I put a

11:19 - another big tower

11:20 - out.

11:21 - Towards a mountain.

11:22 - I put it up and I got channel.

11:24 - Eleven.

11:25 - And go anything is

11:27 - the signal is where a week.

11:28 - In at that time.

11:30 - We had what is known as a are.

11:32 - Flutter.

11:33 - Remembered I had to do picture come out and

11:35 - come in and out.

11:36 - So but anyhow.

11:38 - And what I did just the beginning of broadband

11:41 - I.

11:42 - Took the channel.

11:43 - Six script in widened it

11:45 - that I can carry five and six.

11:47 - Cause there's a skip in between

11:49 - channels for and five which.

11:51 - If five of.

11:53 - Interfere with

11:54 - need made no difference

11:55 - in this but you're still working for the hazel toy yeah your owned by the key corey

11:59 - corey all

12:00 - the

12:00 - coriolis right.

12:01 - So anyhow we put the yankee ball games on and were down

12:04 - century club one night.

12:06 - In.

12:07 - The pictures that and it's out hits in and out

12:10 - people let's see a couple of evenings and this the but.

12:13 - Interest told me said joe what the world your dog that

12:17 - that picture's terrible

12:18 - you can't put that on.

12:19 - I saw tourists that's the best we can get up there.

12:22 - So I said all right i'll take her off so I took it off.

12:25 - That telephone nearly went crazy.

12:28 - Of

12:28 - thing he was sitting by the telephone but I was.

12:32 - So.

12:34 - Let you know to

12:35 - and yes they did.

12:37 - But then I told chris

12:38 - I said look let's move the antennas up to where they are today and hazel

12:42 - and it's

12:43 - close to where I live but it was that on the mountain a little bit further.

12:46 - And.

12:47 - Sure enough we put it up and we got channel.

12:50 - Eleven I expect the antennas

12:52 - and so forth

12:53 - then.

12:54 - And then we found also that we'd get get channeled

12:57 - to

12:58 - four

12:59 - seven at a new york which were pretty decent

13:02 - but at that time we still are carrying philadelphia's.

13:05 - To and for.

13:06 - Then we had five and six with a yankee ball games on.

13:10 - In the pictures were better.

13:12 - In.

13:13 - This is where johnny was some comes and you are still using no single channel strip

13:17 - amplifiers oh yes

13:18 - our location

13:19 - yeah to.

13:21 - Oh about this big up on the whole yeah.

13:24 - Two big boxes on a pole

13:26 - who big black

13:27 - out of.

13:27 - One hundred.

13:28 - One was for distribution the other one was pretty amplifiers and you said that you

13:32 - had at this time or

13:34 - prior to this met the john walsh at that time also knowledge

13:37 - well

13:37 - here's what happened.

13:39 - Oh incidentally

13:40 - another thing.

13:42 - To

13:42 - part of history

13:44 - when we move from james whether we had a little shack there.

13:47 - Is.

13:48 - I call her the shack wasn't much of a building.

13:51 - Building

13:52 - little building

13:52 - and anyhow when we

13:54 - moved up onto the new place.

13:56 - We got to

13:56 - all army bus I mean the military bus

13:59 - because I figured it's metal

14:00 - and at one leaked to the antennas and is that we put it up there.

14:04 - So anyhow johnny and pete

14:06 - come up

14:06 - to see me up there and his on.

14:08 - Cause they heard ward carrying.

14:11 - The yankee ball games and

14:13 - there for a mahoney city

14:14 - I said

14:15 - yes.

14:16 - And they wanted to know.

14:18 - How we're doing this and so forth.

14:20 - So I showed them where the antennas were how they work working in isn't that.

14:24 - And.

14:26 - That's we became real close friends

14:28 - and.

14:29 - He told me where he has an amplifier where he's

14:32 - passing five channels luther health was believe

14:34 - at that time

14:35 - you won't hold amplifier.

14:37 - And.

14:38 - Which naturally got me interested in it and how he's doing these things.

14:42 - And.

14:44 - From there were like we used to see.

14:46 - Johnny and pete I guess almost every weekend

14:48 - and we

14:48 - already weekend

14:49 - and during the week

14:51 - but every sunday

14:52 - that was habitual

14:53 - helpful I.

14:54 - Was.

14:54 - Full of map.

14:55 - All the time know who

14:57 - could.

14:57 - Even see the bugs it.

14:58 - What

14:59 - did you think this was going to be a business at that time I ring.

15:01 - Oh yeah.

15:02 - Oh

15:03 - yeah.

15:04 - Govt because.

15:07 - On top of the mountains way at good pictures

15:09 - and would amplifiers and preamps and so forth we can make them bigger.

15:13 - Or better you know in the people down in advantages.

15:16 - Could get anything so

15:18 - as you build down into the valley.

15:20 - In these areas.

15:21 - Would you hook up every hole measure went along or with some people just holding out

15:25 - wouldn't buy it for anything.

15:27 - If

15:27 - you're charging hundred and twenty five dollars just yeah we should we charge a

15:30 - hundred and twenty five dollars and three seventy five in my.

15:33 - And the.

15:34 - Up.

15:35 - I'll tell you I even got sick one day

15:37 - I was up

15:38 - to what eleven at twelve o'clock at night.

15:40 - Putting installs in that we've put in twenty five that day.

15:44 - In.

15:45 - Lung collapsed on me but.

15:46 - You just couldn't keep up with the demand.

15:49 - In the.

15:51 - Or maybe there are some diehards but most of the people once since they saw the

15:55 - pictures on the cable.

15:56 - They they wanted it

15:58 - and I that they had the antenna the ice and snow and.

16:01 - The wind and they make that funny found a woman the only

16:04 - bad found.

16:05 - And.

16:06 - I was a lot of

16:06 - repair works through the roof and a they felt the cable was better

16:10 - so the when it was the more cable they built the more television set useful.

16:14 - That's

16:15 - actually news the case where we hired.

16:18 - Contractors

16:19 - philadelphia hate henckels or mccoy and.

16:23 - They they had all the do to keep was

16:25 - up

16:25 - with what we were building and then.

16:27 - Other cable companies were started to are doing good

16:30 - but it

16:30 - soda

16:31 - points of by johnny walls and though.

16:34 - We went down to money city

16:36 - and.

16:37 - He showed me where he's carrying what was known as the jason's channel that time.

16:41 - In normally you couldn't put channel two and three on

16:45 - because it sounded too.

16:46 - Damaged three

16:48 - read.

16:48 - Go against for

16:50 - and I got away with the five and six

16:52 - because of the games.

16:53 - So I said

16:54 - I dunno while you're doing this you know I escape.

16:57 - In what he did he took the preamp the gerald priya.

17:01 - The peak

17:01 - the picture.

17:03 - Instead of you know if we were

17:05 - taught in school and everything else that.

17:07 - The the

17:08 - the amplifiers should be flat.

17:10 - In.

17:11 - The

17:11 - broadcasts are normally held a sound

17:14 - carriers six db below.

17:16 - What what johnny did now

17:18 - he picked it to the picture and.

17:20 - Automatically cut

17:22 - the sound I dunno if we realized that is dumb but that's what he did

17:25 - and he said luxury see how nice and shiny this picture is in.

17:29 - I said holy smokes

17:30 - and quite frankly.

17:32 - We weren't

17:33 - a great sloping nice slope and the picture was good.

17:36 - In the noise and stuff like that wasn't there anymore.

17:39 - So.

17:41 - In the meters

17:42 - at

17:42 - we didn't have the meters at the time that.

17:44 - That this this could do but

17:46 - then later.

17:48 - Months later I realized that.

17:49 - It's the sound sound as

17:51 - down on the slope and the pictures of high

17:54 - and it was and it worked were good.

17:56 - And so you then you introduce that broadband amplifier into the system at hazelton

18:00 - yeah.

18:01 - Except

18:02 - I did a little dip

18:03 - I.

18:03 - Put tunes

18:04 - system.

18:05 - Tune.

18:06 - Circuit center you originally had was all capacitive coupling

18:10 - and.

18:11 - You're

18:12 - really couldn't flattened

18:13 - out and so forth.

18:14 - Years whereas I we we put up.

18:17 - And johnny didn't like him at first.

18:19 - I

18:19 - put two and circuit center

18:21 - which can compensate for the cable cause the loss on channel six was hired

18:25 - then channel to and used the.

18:28 - The

18:28 - to

18:28 - carry their picture

18:29 - you explain this both in your original oral history with stretch smith and also.

18:34 - In your interview with the archer taylor didn't you for his at work the explains this

18:38 - also with that then I

18:39 - write

18:39 - because he had a great respect for you and how you would.

18:41 - Really did that to begin with.

18:44 - And when did you

18:45 - when did you broaden out then when did you start business for yourself.

18:49 - Oh I'd say oh well let's see.

18:52 - Forty

18:52 - fifty four.

18:53 - Fifty four.

18:55 - Rate is one of you started wailing.

18:57 - And you

18:58 - what time what year did you get started in in hazleton as chief engineer.

19:03 - If if he decides to december fifty hill.

19:06 - I work for the korea's and I have to say some

19:08 - good about them.

19:10 - Is I was under a payroll.

19:12 - And we applied for the weatherly franchise and.

19:15 - I had a few problems getting properties and stuff like that.

19:19 - In believe it or not palmer coreos

19:21 - joe you said.

19:22 - You want me can I help you

19:24 - because you can make a.

19:25 - Been good to us in the business and maybe we can expand and believe it or not.

19:29 - He got its the properly which I have till today.

19:32 - In.

19:32 - The meantime on his payroll

19:34 - and then we started

19:35 - I guess it's.

19:36 - Better now we managed to berwick

19:38 - or oh berwick nineteen

19:39 - nineteen fifty five fifty five.

19:41 - How larger communities worthies.

19:45 - What was the population of these communities are a hundred homes in

19:48 - and.

19:49 - Say berwyn.

19:51 - Cause about thirty thirty five forty thousand people while a good size

19:55 - lawyer and whether the

19:56 - think

19:57 - my.

19:57 - Three thousand with

19:58 - that is a smaller community.

20:02 - And then from then on.

20:04 - What happened is.

20:05 - That wonder to coreos to.

20:07 - Spread out faster and.

20:09 - They were satisfied where they were and so forth so.

20:12 - I'd say about nineteen.

20:15 - Fifty eight or so.

20:17 - Will you more or less went on our own

20:19 - even though I did.

20:20 - Work for them with the.

20:22 - And stuff like that and you were you are all in agreement with us going out on your

20:25 - own billy new systems.

20:28 - Yeah

20:28 - but just you were still the one doing the office work and you're moving like that and

20:32 - we still run on the television store at this

20:34 - day.

20:35 - She typed franchise contracts the paul reynolds and everything

20:39 - we had to attorneys you know but the.

20:42 - She had to redo and cant change their names or upgrade them and stuff tell me about

20:46 - it did when you want when you went into ask for a franchise so what what

20:49 - any problems there and give any do a handle it.

20:52 - I was quite fortunate there as able to.

20:55 - Guess give them a.

20:56 - Good sales pitch because I tell him I said

20:59 - there's no antenna is needed on the roofs.

21:01 - There's a.

21:02 - The pictures are

21:03 - far superior

21:05 - and that we take especially equipment antennas and amplifiers

21:09 - to.

21:10 - Process the signal that you can get the best you can

21:13 - possibly get.

21:14 - In.

21:16 - The people that they live.

21:17 - And what they had never seen tv either

21:19 - a

21:19 - lot of them know that we would invite them to going to see what we did in the other

21:23 - me well then it's pretty easy sell it that's oh yeah

21:26 - and then when we bought boeing.

21:28 - Leave it or not we've got it for what

21:30 - thirty thousand dollars

21:31 - that was a lot of money and

21:32 - when.

21:33 - We pay it off every month.

21:35 - Know.

21:36 - They the good guy who sold it to us.

21:39 - More or less finance it for as the.

21:41 - Jimmy lee.

21:43 - In and.

21:44 - See the leave from reading.

21:46 - Know.

21:47 - Apparently his.

21:48 - Family but anyhow.

21:50 - And.

21:50 - They had the system but he

21:52 - didn't have.

21:53 - I'd say to know how.

21:55 - He wasn't technically wasn't taken me

21:57 - in found

21:58 - in the sound was off balance and everything else

22:01 - and

22:02 - he was still staying with the three

22:04 - channel gerald system.

22:06 - Whereas we came in would already have five channel system.

22:10 - And and.

22:12 - And then again channel eleven comes into the picture

22:14 - we.

22:15 - The yankee ball games is.

22:18 - That's how you got into the microwave business wasn't at

22:20 - the beginning.

22:21 - Anyhow.

22:24 - I

22:24 - was trying to get channel eleven and in fact that antennas all over the mountain

22:28 - everything else and.

22:29 - It just couldn't do it.

22:31 - So I I belonged to the.

22:34 - Institute of engineers electronic I'd trip of

22:37 - tripoli

22:38 - and I was at a show in new york

22:40 - and I saw.

22:42 - I guess it was raytheon equipment.

22:44 - Where.

22:45 - You could do the microwave thing and so forth.

22:48 - In in the meantime

22:50 - channel twenty eight this is about fifty five fifty seven.

22:54 - Channel twenty eight.

22:55 - Came on the air

22:56 - and there are getting pictures at in new york and I'm trying to figure out where

23:00 - will they getting them.

23:01 - Your I found out through up in nepal openness.

23:03 - Much closer to new york city in the pictures are

23:06 - pretty decent there.

23:08 - And.

23:09 - They use actually they had our

23:11 - a equipment microwave.

23:13 - And soon as I saw that and then I saw the raytheon equipment in new york or overboard

23:18 - this is the way to go.

23:19 - So I taught the hazel on the people into.

23:22 - Putting in a microwave link which we did.

23:26 - In the

23:27 - that

23:27 - started now clear up

23:29 - one hop then from the poconos in.

23:31 - The hazel yeah.

23:32 - Then

23:33 - johnny find out about it real quick

23:35 - and he was a got guy if he heard something new

23:38 - he want to.

23:39 - Go right now take a look at it

23:41 - let's do it now.

23:42 - Now.

23:44 - Comes in one evening

23:45 - at the wedding.

23:47 - My sister my brother's wedding

23:48 - his were at the reception

23:50 - john come with

23:51 - mom mama going to massachusetts whether you.

23:53 - Require the two.

23:54 - Three of them went

23:55 - left us flat at the wedding and went right to.

23:57 - A new antenna up there

23:59 - but anyhow.

24:00 - He he found out we got the microwave in or.

24:03 - And.

24:04 - So.

24:06 - This all single channel microwave of wp I except for

24:10 - single channel right

24:11 - and they they had the yankee franchise at that time but

24:13 - yeah.

24:14 - Right.

24:15 - And so anyhow.

24:18 - We went to the raytheon people up in.

24:20 - Massachusetts.

24:22 - And we've got the.

24:23 - Permission to use some day or equipment.

24:26 - And this is interesting.

24:27 - Anyhow we.

24:29 - Wonder their

24:30 - rent or equipment cause.

24:31 - Hazel and was

24:32 - I think thirty three miles.

24:34 - Were bears

24:35 - an hour's ride thirty five miles or so.

24:37 - He

24:38 - we didn't know for sure it's going to work.

24:40 - So they sent us up to messina new york and.

24:43 - Were there and they were building.

24:45 - The canals up there.

24:47 - And they had microwave there

24:49 - to show them how.

24:51 - The construction was going to

24:53 - and stuff like that.

24:54 - So they gave west.

24:55 - Lowness the equipment

24:57 - and.

24:58 - They didn't she we didn't know how to work at

25:00 - what to do or anything.

25:02 - And then johnny had a

25:03 - habit at that time depot big telephone poles up to put his antennas on

25:07 - he had a little platform up there.

25:09 - So her up in the poconos

25:11 - he's down there and.

25:12 - In bears head and that modern city

25:15 - and we're trying to get signal us.

25:16 - Whether the pictures coming in.

25:19 - But then

25:19 - I had an amateur radio license

25:22 - and I got a

25:22 - to meet her.

25:24 - Ham radio

25:25 - and we

25:26 - will use that for.

25:27 - Communications back and forth.

25:29 - So after you've got the channel eleven and did you carried full-time or just for the

25:33 - yankee games

25:34 - know we cared for.

25:36 - So

25:36 - the independent than it was it wasn't independence station was the right right.

25:40 - When did you decide that you wanted to bring it to other new york channels in

25:43 - well.

25:44 - Then.

25:45 - Channel five new york

25:47 - was dumont at the time.

25:49 - Was one of

25:49 - the better stations there.

25:51 - And now comes the government.

25:54 - And.

25:55 - You had to get permission from.

25:57 - The stations to cared and stuff when you a common carrier right right microwave

26:01 - and believe it or not johnny and pete went to new york city.

26:04 - In till today summer.

26:06 - They got permission to carry the station.

26:09 - On the microwave is on the microwave down

26:11 - that was the distinction that's

26:13 - at stretch try to

26:14 - make with you the last to act right but yeah.

26:17 - And not to carry it or not for permission to carry it on the system but to carry it

26:21 - on the microwave says

26:22 - yeah.

26:23 - So then the he put it on the system and.

26:26 - It took the lawyers to

26:28 - get that straightened out but we like go going.

26:31 - Then where'd you go after that.

26:33 - Well.

26:34 - After berwick I guess where would we do.

26:37 - We build.

26:38 - Number we ran in benton.

26:40 - And then we've been into

26:41 - still in the same area.

26:43 - Do.

26:44 - Then we we start.

26:47 - Guy named sam edwards used to sell its cable.

26:51 - And.

26:52 - He took it.

26:54 - He told us about those areas available in delaware

26:57 - on he was from reading.

26:59 - Any

26:59 - company was that.

27:01 - Times my know us wire

27:03 - goes by eric

27:04 - because race night or at the time was with to.

27:07 - Anyhow he said that.

27:09 - There's a.

27:10 - Should be a franchise available in reading and reading was behind the mountains to

27:14 - the

27:14 - there's

27:15 - there was also a television station and reading yeah channel sixty one.

27:19 - I'm greg.

27:20 - And the.

27:23 - That's when things got a little dicey didn't it yeah

27:26 - anyhow.

27:26 - So the.

27:28 - Fact you know what they did to me.

27:29 - That was a group called tame.

27:32 - Oh I remember very well

27:33 - very well tv my antenna manufactures something enterprises they put me on the stage

27:39 - in.

27:40 - And I realize

27:41 - that many tv

27:42 - and.

27:43 - Dealers downer but boy they gave us a

27:45 - a run for our money and then run the radio

27:47 - and then they put me on the radio.

27:49 - Talking back and forth

27:51 - but the we convinced of

27:52 - the politicians that time that

27:54 - cable television is the way to go here.

27:57 - So then the.

27:58 - We had to have.

27:59 - Attended a franchise for reading and

28:02 - going to go that

28:03 - in the meantime he also told me about systems down and in delaware.

28:07 - And.

28:08 - The systems and delaware and our smaller.

28:11 - In.

28:12 - I couldn't afford.

28:14 - It's something like reading so the coreos within

28:17 - they built reading

28:18 - and we started it.

28:19 - In.

28:20 - In delaware.

28:22 - And at that time now now

28:23 - we you had you had separated yourself from the korea also for business purposes yeah

28:27 - I still

28:28 - you still.

28:29 - Are antenna work and everything else.

28:31 - I sold them equipment

28:32 - and this is where are we

28:33 - now had a five channel we're building our own amplifiers and that I want to go into a

28:37 - little bit more detail that why did you decide to build your own as well

28:41 - because you couldn't get.

28:43 - General at that time it was starting

28:45 - to go and into multi channel and stuff like that

28:49 - but

28:49 - again wasn't quite available too soon.

28:52 - And what they did not have at the time was an

28:55 - you see.

28:56 - A system for have a broadband an automatic gained control

29:00 - so what I did I put a tone carrier.

29:03 - Boy where the heck was a it right in between channel four and five

29:06 - I dunno if it'd be seventy three or seventy five megahertz

29:09 - but it wasn't wasn't on the

29:10 - picture

29:11 - and they took a

29:12 - simple a d c circuit fences.

29:14 - Some.

29:16 - Dc voltage back

29:18 - to the tubes

29:19 - and.

29:20 - It was a

29:21 - real

29:21 - perfect system but at work anyhow and that was the reason you went into manufacturing

29:25 - your own.

29:25 - The agency

29:26 - in.

29:27 - This broadband amplifier.

29:29 - And I was battling them then for

29:31 - johnny.

29:32 - Fact that we couldn't make them fast enough.

29:34 - About five in plays.

29:36 - Done.

29:37 - How many we turning out the time.

29:40 - Oh.

29:41 - We supply enough for peter

29:43 - and john and on our own.

29:45 - In our own

29:45 - plus vapor grabbed doing and.

29:47 - We'd been reading reading we

29:49 - that

29:50 - then we started in delaware we put the.

29:52 - The

29:53 - what did you call the helpful for.

29:55 - Was a company

29:56 - manufactures.

29:58 - The equipment and services.

29:59 - Company.

30:00 - You know

30:01 - we.

30:01 - Can't make them in and service company.

30:03 - And

30:04 - over the years how many of these did you manage factory.

30:06 - Boy.

30:08 - Thousands

30:08 - of young hundred.

30:10 - Georgia gardener came up he wanted

30:12 - to be a distributor for them and

30:14 - we couldn't make them fastener.

30:16 - Was just we just didn't wanna do that much

30:18 - you know we did you said you probably could have made a business out of the

30:21 - manufacturing ahead you decided you wanted to go into it yeah right.

30:26 - But by that time gerald was

30:27 - was also our journalism was starting to do.

30:31 - At broadband equipment and so forth.

30:33 - And

30:34 - a little bit later on that transistors came in.

30:36 - When did you go to to the high band.

30:39 - Oh let's see.

30:41 - Why do we are still a

30:42 - bill and equipment we both some high band equipment

30:45 - and

30:46 - we puts with channels but high and low yeah

30:49 - right.

30:49 - And we put the equipment down in.

30:52 - Reading.

30:53 - Then we started using it ourselves and so forth.

30:56 - And.

30:59 - Well in delaware now we built.

31:02 - It.

31:03 - Just below dover

31:04 - clear down

31:05 - to lie on the oliver larose

31:08 - riverdale for

31:08 - a rehoboth beach.

31:10 - We did quite a job the

31:11 - some interesting things there to

31:13 - rehoboth

31:14 - the.

31:14 - Boy.

31:15 - That was

31:15 - that's that's a resort area.

31:17 - We put our tower up.

31:19 - In there I was trying to get that baltimore channels and.

31:22 - Washington channels.

31:24 - And.

31:25 - Or the highway department gave us a problem.

31:28 - No it wasn't the highway department it was the telephone companies.

31:32 - The power company won't let us on the polls that puts the wire up this was what mid

31:35 - sixties.

31:36 - Yeah

31:36 - right.

31:37 - And

31:38 - so I say well we both.

31:40 - Barrier or put it underground cause delaware with is

31:43 - sandy was soft and everything

31:45 - also water level.

31:46 - Oh boy

31:47 - so anyhow.

31:48 - We put it in in the.

31:50 - Tommy daniels.

31:52 - Use at your foreign boy said well you know there's

31:54 - not they knew how to run the tractors

31:56 - we bought a big track or experience the subsoil or.

31:59 - Okay

32:00 - and the.

32:01 - So a check with the highway department they said okay put it in.

32:05 - We had to go down I think eighteen inches or something like that

32:08 - and.

32:09 - We had to be.

32:10 - Eighteen inches off the edge of the road.

32:12 - So

32:13 - I checked with the water companies the telephone companies in a nice

32:17 - they said all of their down three feet or this and that and everything else.

32:20 - So to.

32:21 - Tommy dahlias starts up to attract your he goes and oh

32:24 - he calls me your yup joe come running up I said what's wrong.

32:28 - I get up there are water shooting up

32:30 - your your.

32:31 - Alive like

32:32 - they ripped up the telephone lines the water lines but.

32:35 - Would you believe that we had

32:37 - the paperwork

32:38 - and.

32:39 - On everything that

32:40 - you have the permission

32:41 - and.

32:43 - Neither the telephone companies in order to water companies didn't cost us sustain.

32:47 - It.

32:47 - Because they didn't know where their lines where

32:49 - they didn't know and and they weren't order supposed to be see.

32:53 - So

32:53 - so you build rehoboth all underground even though

32:56 - the water

32:56 - a right about.

32:58 - Oh but and

32:59 - attribute

32:59 - we had to run from the and tennis that

33:01 - I I said about fifteen miles in the town.

33:04 - Oh yeah

33:04 - and the site was outside of

33:06 - milford.

33:07 - And we.

33:08 - Run a downer.

33:09 - And at that time there was no am l microwave or anything available to you know not

33:14 - not at that time.

33:15 - Then another interesting thing with these so-called eighteen inches

33:19 - every time the highway department put up a sign

33:21 - there's was also eighteen inches off of.

33:24 - Know

33:24 - whatever you get a failure would just go look for a new road sign and sure enough

33:28 - there was a cable cut in half.

33:30 - So that night now he expand it out

33:32 - onto the coast where did you go after that.

33:35 - Well

33:35 - with

33:36 - the

33:36 - delaware then I guess we went new jersey.

33:39 - Yeah garden state garden state which is a.

33:41 - Sparta franklin that whole complex there now you know you were in the area though

33:45 - where there were off your signals

33:47 - well except that.

33:49 - When I always draw through a town I look to see on top of the roofs

33:53 - how big the antennas where you can tell her.

33:55 - Pretty quick whether you're a good pictures are.

33:58 - Inspired I had some pictures

34:00 - but hamburg and franklin more behind them out and.

34:02 - Say so we got the french for here we're still behind the mountains and

34:05 - most of those areas of yeah

34:06 - where was the first system you built where were you I know you went out to tucson I

34:10 - want to get it

34:11 - a little doubt that.

34:12 - Whereas the first system you built where you were actually built in a market that had

34:16 - good tv future vision.

34:19 - New jersey that's eatontown.

34:23 - Ocean port oceanside that whole area

34:26 - we put it in their

34:27 - right.

34:28 - See bright.

34:29 - In fact see bright if you.

34:30 - Know where it is that's the upper end in new jersey's pretty close at it out of a.

34:34 - New york city

34:35 - and quite frankly now that system groove slow it wasn't really fast really had to do

34:40 - some marketing and as to challenge right.

34:42 - That was the first time you really had a market though writer.

34:45 - And

34:46 - unfortunately.

34:47 - We have would you believe.

34:50 - A passing of what was the one hundred and

34:54 - fifty two hundred thousand homes we pass their

34:55 - but.

34:56 - As

34:56 - that.

34:57 - The keys to of.

35:00 - Demand for cable was slow wasn't doing too good.

35:02 - In the people that

35:04 - were I was a partnership that was other people involved.

35:07 - A got nervous and we sold at company

35:10 - but what we did have their at that time

35:12 - we had some of the

35:13 - pictures at a philadelphia

35:14 - plus new york and everything else that came

35:18 - to a screeching halt over pretty quick though

35:19 - it sold at the store.

35:21 - Yeah

35:21 - the store

35:22 - broadcasting you.

35:24 - And

35:25 - another thing we did there now do is a.

35:29 - The

35:30 - we had

35:31 - twelve channels at the time.

35:33 - In the people

35:34 - cause I mentioned were getting pretty good pictures off the air.

35:37 - So what I did has put a dual system in or and dual cables

35:40 - twelve challenges

35:41 - on the one

35:42 - in twelve channels on together.

35:44 - And it was

35:44 - was an expensive system it was but.

35:48 - Today

35:48 - a big company but.

35:49 - At that time

35:50 - and satellites wouldn't.

35:52 - Broadcasting wasn't quite available.

35:55 - And what we did is the monmouth race track

35:57 - we.

35:58 - The races there was.

36:00 - Never had of that.

36:01 - Yeah.

36:01 - We had some local origination program so

36:04 - we had some subscribers but not really good tell me what you did on local origination

36:08 - up there

36:08 - oh we had to.

36:10 - One

36:11 - local politicians coming in and.

36:15 - I guess the the horse races were on

36:18 - we.

36:18 - Did you actually central.

36:20 - To film the racist themselves.

36:22 - Yeah

36:22 - oh I'd have to delay them or anything no no

36:25 - we.

36:26 - A fact if I remember around at the.

36:28 - Track had their own cameras

36:30 - and we just kept in their run line back

36:33 - and we were carrying to.

36:34 - The ratio

36:35 - for

36:35 - and you never got involved with the gamblers or.

36:38 - Anybody else who wanted to.

36:40 - Well one of the of

36:41 - investors in the cable system was

36:43 - part owner and attract.

36:45 - Okay.

36:46 - Yeah.

36:47 - Harvey wardell right.

36:49 - But they they never tried to

36:51 - delay them so that they would get the call early on in.

36:54 - Like that

36:55 - maybe they that I don't remember but what that was

36:57 - anything that you were cared about yeah.

36:59 - And you are still handling

37:01 - all of the office.

37:02 - Work for all of these systems at the stern.

37:04 - Oh yeah

37:05 - not

37:05 - to finish and I didn't do their work.

37:07 - We be went in and taught them what to do.

37:10 - And how to set up the offices and

37:12 - their record what she'd go down.

37:14 - It's.

37:15 - Weird hire people

37:16 - and set up the books and then my

37:18 - later on my daughter janice

37:20 - she went down to the ready or the delaware.

37:24 - In new jersey.

37:25 - Yeah.

37:26 - Well that's right new jersey she she went down there

37:28 - and help set the books up and

37:30 - then as we were expanding

37:32 - and

37:32 - janice as well as irene got involved in.

37:35 - Setting the office look let's go if you actually you've got into business if

37:39 - yourselves in about

37:40 - in the sixties.

37:43 - Let's go how many subscribers did you have in the sixties at the at the end of the

37:46 - sixties.

37:48 - Roughly irene I don't I don't need to know it to the exact number what.

37:52 - Ten thousand and fifty thousand one hundred thousand

37:54 - no no maybe twenty twenty five thousand the end of the seventies.

37:59 - You know.

37:59 - How many at the end of the seven seventies.

38:02 - Or there were getting.

38:04 - If you

38:04 - added a month together over fifty.

38:06 - Well

38:07 - what whether he ended the eighties.

38:09 - Eighties.

38:12 - Oh.

38:13 - Approaching seventy thousand cars.

38:15 - Eighties we still have the northeast system which is pretty big.

38:19 - Their companies are growing pretty good

38:21 - and at the end of the nineties.

38:24 - Boy.

38:27 - Yeah I don't know day.

38:30 - Over fifty thousand sixty thousand.

38:32 - We sold on the company okay.

38:34 - So what would the fifty or sixty thousand was not necessarily the most you ever had.

38:38 - No no no

38:39 - more

38:40 - about eighty thousand.

38:42 - Gotta remember.

38:43 - In.

38:44 - Women's carter president.

38:48 - In the eighties.

38:49 - Yeah somewhere in their

38:50 - interest rate

38:51 - of twenty four percent or twenty four percent

38:55 - and we do believe we are as six over prime.

38:56 - So you just go should.

38:58 - Know.

38:58 - So that's when that's when

39:00 - john malone and health duty not to john malone came in

39:03 - and he

39:04 - he told me god bless the matinees really good.

39:07 - I.

39:08 - Used to.

39:09 - Of I was going to sell a company he said yeah

39:12 - what do you want to sell it for you said.

39:13 - That said

39:13 - let's sell me part of I think it was forty five percent.

39:17 - And we'll give you the money and

39:19 - gucci did

39:20 - bailed me out.

39:21 - And then.

39:22 - You want to keep expanding wherever you're going to do was up to me.

39:25 - And so we had a good buy sell agree the with a and.

39:29 - Come I guess it was.

39:30 - Nineteen ninety.

39:32 - Yes

39:33 - nine ninety one

39:34 - ninety one.

39:35 - We bought him out.

39:37 - And I paid them back

39:38 - much more than what he gave me but

39:40 - I had it at many more subscribers.

39:42 - He did that with lenfest he did it with

39:45 - bread on.

39:46 - This is strictly.

39:47 - Tc I.

39:48 - Actually made to see I did it with oh yeah.

39:51 - He did the same fashion he did it with breslin and.

39:53 - Number of others to do

39:54 - that he did

39:55 - in fact the jerry length as.

39:57 - Told me about you know that

39:59 - kind of

39:59 - things he was done agreements he had with

40:02 - with

40:02 - c.

40:03 - And

40:04 - but.

40:05 - I never won the pub public route you know

40:07 - like reagan state.

40:08 - We and john even as

40:10 - riga is now as asked me to go with him

40:12 - but.

40:13 - We stay we always

40:14 - tell today

40:15 - still owner independent they just didn't we already

40:17 - have to worry about stockholder right right yes I had.

40:21 - Yeah.

40:23 - Where do you want to go now.

40:25 - What do you want to do anything but you want to build another place you want to buy

40:27 - another my sons.

40:29 - Of more or less run into company now

40:31 - and we're total fiber optics.

40:33 - All the systems

40:35 - are interconnected wood fiber and.

40:37 - All we have some systems in maryland now I guess.

40:40 - And st mary's st mary's down there and down.

40:43 - On the bay isn't it yeah

40:44 - right.

40:45 - In kentucky

40:46 - he's looking

40:47 - for in kentucky.

40:48 - I.

40:49 - Don't really know it

40:50 - is is taking care of allow their.

40:53 - Told me about tucson how'd you get involved in that.

40:55 - That seems to be way out of the area they.

40:57 - That

40:58 - there was a

40:59 - guy a friend of mine was on the n.

41:02 - A independent operators board.

41:04 - And

41:05 - leave a

41:05 - and.

41:06 - Was a

41:07 - brian blow

41:08 - okay brian will handle brown.

41:09 - And he.

41:11 - More or less told me that their systems available in in in arizona

41:15 - and they need some work and so forth so I didn't tucson itself though was.

41:19 - Or

41:20 - not the big

41:20 - tucson s states it's it's the

41:22 - housing development outside of tucson.

41:25 - Yeah we.

41:26 - There were some indian villages their.

41:28 - Which.

41:29 - There

41:30 - different kind of construction or but we hired believe it or not.

41:33 - Indians

41:34 - and they run this system and

41:35 - we bought them and

41:37 - they're doing pretty good.

41:39 - Journeyman role was no german

41:41 - was.

41:41 - Are doing that areas

41:42 - rice

41:43 - solo or and some of those others

41:45 - fort huachuca in that area down in the right

41:47 - right.

41:50 - In fact they're expanding the one system.

41:54 - I guess it is tucson.

41:56 - And

41:57 - but there you know the

41:58 - is

41:59 - developers come in and they'll put up two hundred units and

42:02 - are no.

42:02 - Real quick and so.

42:04 - There's.

42:04 - Got to yeah all the wire in their first.

42:06 - Couple of it's a big capital outlay when you go in

42:09 - for those new developments and

42:10 - and all that.

42:12 - What were you doing all this time other than taking care of the family the office the

42:16 - boston.

42:18 - Straight

42:19 - and.

42:19 - Wow she without someone had to be home

42:21 - I.

42:22 - That's what people couldn't go.

42:24 - All right I took care of all the records there was an awful lot of work we a.

42:27 - Lot.

42:28 - Fourteen fifteen franchises and.

42:31 - And

42:32 - pain.

42:33 - Take care of all that and.

42:35 - The old customers and chloe the northeast we at thirty three franchise and up there.

42:40 - And we built the upper end in new york thirty three franchises

42:44 - are set

42:44 - on where where was that and route all around scranton

42:48 - scranton grew up into the clarks summit.

42:51 - And then we built the poconos.

42:53 - And resort areas in the poconos all

42:55 - right.

42:56 - And then we both agreed to the poconos in the sixties.

43:01 - Our own.

43:02 - We built the upper end in

43:04 - new york state from beat between syracuse.

43:07 - In watertown all of

43:08 - a little towns and between or.

43:10 - Will you you've been honored by the pennsylvania association various ways over the

43:14 - years of.

43:16 - That they really meant subject you didn't have to be accepted and one hundred by them

43:19 - oh yeah you're also a founder which it but the.

43:23 - Pennsylvania cable tv association

43:25 - this business has been in my blood I am dollars it's gonna be a success

43:29 - just

43:29 - like today and just saying what we're gonna do now

43:31 - my son is

43:33 - going hot

43:33 - real heavy into just high speed access.

43:36 - The data transmission.

43:38 - In

43:39 - our systems now.

43:40 - I dunno where yeah.

43:42 - Four or five hundred channels with the data transmission and just how many things to

43:45 - be done

43:46 - and were almost finished with a return lines.

43:49 - Which now means at of your home any.

43:52 - Thing you want to access any satellite and so forth.

43:54 - You're going to be able to do it.

43:56 - And you're doing that and all of your system.

43:58 - Naomi

43:58 - oh yeah.

43:59 - Yeah.

44:01 - Well.

44:02 - To keep up to speed with the satellite transmission.

44:06 - You almost have to do it and besides as a good market out there

44:09 - are good mark I think that's right I

44:10 - that's where.

44:11 - You are also on the board of directors of the pc and is that right the.

44:15 - Pennsylvania.

44:16 - Network.

44:17 - When did you get involved with that.

44:18 - Artist is good one too.

44:20 - In the beginning.

44:22 - I was one of the founders of it.

44:24 - We started.

44:25 - Well.

44:26 - I

44:26 - blame the man's name was

44:28 - pitted year.

44:29 - Use as.

44:31 - Administrator for

44:32 - pennsylvania schools or something.

44:34 - And

44:35 - he wanted to interconnect the schools with tv.

44:39 - And so.

44:42 - Being that we both

44:43 - let some of the microwave systems in pennsylvania.

44:47 - When.

44:48 - We worked

44:49 - with the.

44:51 - When you call it the.

44:53 - Picking out the freak of the frequencies and.

44:55 - Land the land.

44:56 - I notice that while I saw right away

44:59 - that the antennas sites cable and tennis sites in pennsylvania

45:03 - you might say all look at each other.

45:05 - And so we went up to.

45:07 - I went up to the poconos that a fire.

45:09 - Tower there

45:10 - and I talked to dixon miller

45:12 - and he said well there's a of pennsylvania.

45:15 - Fire watch systems where.

45:18 - The

45:18 - towers

45:19 - or to fire towers

45:20 - all can see each other.

45:23 - In what when there's a fire they.

45:25 - Coordinate where the

45:26 - problems are and so forth

45:28 - and I figured borders a natural that to put microwave cause

45:31 - years of properties away available.

45:34 - Most of the the

45:35 - not most of the

45:36 - lot of them have power coming up

45:37 - and always going to do is

45:39 - put the towers up we've got a microwave in connect.

45:42 - So anyhow model from

45:43 - this is where he came

45:44 - into this

45:45 - and I.

45:47 - Because penn state

45:48 - at

45:48 - the time had

45:49 - that.

45:50 - Tsx it was an educational channel

45:53 - and

45:54 - this may be the opening for

45:56 - interconnecting

45:57 - all the towns with the excuse me joe as an aside model froch is

46:01 - the.

46:01 - Chairman emeritus.

46:03 - Of the cable television centre and past president

46:06 - of the centre right right yeah okay for please go ahead.

46:09 - And yeah

46:09 - model and I drove out to.

46:12 - See the barcodes now.

46:14 - In georgia barca was still arc liquid easily the council.

46:18 - And.

46:20 - To georgia said you know just.

46:21 - The state now it was going to

46:23 - invest thirty million dollars

46:25 - to build.

46:26 - Its educational.

46:28 - Television network.

46:30 - And I said boy you know with the

46:32 - the fire towers available

46:34 - plus the cable systems

46:35 - towers available

46:36 - I said I bet we can do that for heck of a lot less money

46:39 - and so

46:40 - george said okay.

46:42 - Then.

46:43 - When martin and I were driving back

46:45 - to.

46:47 - State college

46:48 - and

46:49 - somehow we got talking about videotapes and programs.

46:52 - In marlo thomas said joe do you ever see the

46:56 - tapes that we have here at the university.

46:57 - I said no

46:58 - and this at this time.

47:00 - We're trying to get more

47:01 - and different

47:02 - television.

47:03 - In the northeast system up in scranton area.

47:06 - And

47:07 - so you showed me I to

47:09 - you think

47:09 - you could wait wait got something where a we can

47:12 - get these tapes

47:13 - and play them back on our cable some

47:15 - companies.

47:15 - You said oh sure I'll see what I can do.

47:18 - So if he got.

47:19 - Somehow with the.

47:21 - Dana of the school

47:22 - to give us a tapes

47:23 - and we put it the small.

47:25 - Color playback unit in.

47:28 - Where are they

47:28 - laughing and campus up in

47:30 - and dunmore.

47:31 - And I hired a

47:32 - the one or the school kids there

47:34 - and they'd run the tapes

47:36 - and they put it on on

47:37 - our cable company in northeast

47:39 - to the schools have such to be able to

47:42 - to

47:42 - you.

47:43 - So.

47:44 - That they had some

47:45 - but the

47:46 - I market was more for the homes

47:47 - is a new channel that of penn state and so forth.

47:50 - And so.

47:53 - We got start running a tapes under them are system then.

47:56 - Immediately know the

47:57 - existence find out

47:59 - what your this was.

48:01 - George barco finds out and real quick let's that students and.

48:04 - So we

48:05 - couple of us

48:06 - got together with

48:07 - put somebody in it

48:08 - and we started from

48:10 - penn state.

48:11 - We came up into the.

48:13 - Into done more.

48:15 - Than what we got that connected you know berwick rossetti an honor system attain

48:19 - did you ever get any state funds.

48:21 - Know.

48:22 - All private fun of all private funds.

48:25 - And that that is what developed into the pcn today is pcn network

48:28 - how long did you really.

48:30 - Do educational work on the pc pcn.

48:33 - Oh we're still doing something

48:34 - to what extent.

48:36 - Oh.

48:37 - Well I dunno about penn state now but the

48:40 - brian a.

48:41 - As at different programs andrea and.

48:44 - And

48:44 - quite frankly the kind of programs is running with

48:47 - with the political.

48:49 - Answers and everything else that.

48:51 - To me that's educational.

48:54 - I would agree with that

48:55 - oh yeah

48:56 - right the

48:57 - a penn state does

48:59 - see us.

48:59 - Cspan

49:00 - yeah.

49:01 - And then.

49:03 - Where.

49:04 - We run into a problem a little bit with penn state

49:07 - we.

49:08 - Put together I think it was

49:10 - anywhere from three to five million dollars

49:12 - and then we wanted him to build a school of communications.

49:16 - In in penn state.

49:18 - And somehow.

49:19 - I forget the guy was a english guy.

49:22 - Anyhow he wanted a bill.

49:24 - Winston.

49:25 - Yeah

49:25 - I figure

49:26 - anyhow he wanted to build a school of journalism.

49:30 - And.

49:32 - I

49:32 - I was more interested in finding a place where I can send my employees

49:36 - that bring them up to date.

49:37 - And that's when.

49:40 - We

49:40 - would talk with marlowe.

49:41 - In.

49:43 - The thing with the.

49:45 - Moving this.

49:47 - Cable museum.

49:48 - Museum or whatever into denver.

49:51 - Because now I could see were.

49:53 - Putting it in inverter errors the university there.

49:57 - You got cable labs there

49:59 - you got all kinds of educational

50:01 - things in were

50:02 - I know like regus and you've got dan richie.

50:05 - That diversity and

50:06 - but it's going to be a play as I can send

50:10 - technicians in office employees and so forth

50:11 - and keep 'em up to speed cause the raise its

50:13 - technologies going so fast.

50:15 - That you gotta have a place you can train something that's true

50:18 - and there would you believe there is no

50:20 - place relieve where you can

50:22 - it's still hard to believe and some of the technical schools I guess we can get some

50:25 - in forget get some but the.

50:27 - Know not really where I can send a guy in that when he comes home

50:30 - back.

50:31 - That

50:31 - he got a degree or he got a.

50:33 - Certificate whatever

50:35 - it isn't the university of illinois champaign don't they do

50:38 - some of this work that they do some.

50:40 - Be a cable center yes.

50:42 - I realize that I'm not just but I thought there were some something so

50:45 - yeah the illinois us have

50:46 - you

50:47 - triggered another.

50:48 - Mind you mentioned that the george.

50:50 - Or what your attorney

50:51 - right

50:52 - and he was for many cable systems in pennsylvania.

50:55 - Can remember his battle over the excise tax.

50:58 - In the fifties.

50:59 - Yeah.

51:00 - Well yeah he'll tell me about that we please.

51:03 - Let's face facts acts

51:05 - yes

51:05 - while was a federal taxes away with charging eight percent.

51:09 - On everything he was collected and george took it to the supreme court.

51:12 - Remember this you beat it to you.

51:14 - When they argued that they

51:15 - or other legal work.

51:17 - In charge and yolanda they did all the legal work.

51:20 - On that and they represented the.

51:24 - Association someone

51:25 - then it all in.

51:26 - Members of the association

51:28 - and.

51:29 - Just took it all the way to the supreme court is that correct.

51:31 - You lost

51:32 - in the local level you lost in.

51:34 - The state court.

51:35 - Appeals court

51:36 - he took it to supreme court where your one

51:38 - right

51:38 - what year was that you remember one.

51:42 - Middle sixties

51:43 - yeah because pete was in trouble

51:44 - with it.

51:46 - I like me.

51:47 - About sixty four sixty

51:48 - like that late I thought was.

51:50 - Right before sixty four he died and sixty four and had to be.

51:53 - Earlier.

51:54 - Okay.

51:56 - But I couldn't have maybe fifty nine or

51:58 - in around there

51:59 - know.

52:00 - Yeah

52:01 - and then yet and

52:01 - think george gave to his.

52:04 - We got hit with copyrights.

52:06 - In.

52:07 - It's.

52:09 - February nineteen sixty six I'll never forget that

52:11 - and

52:12 - and what happened there is

52:13 - we couldn't.

52:15 - Think the government put on that we can carry

52:19 - nothing but local channels that very well

52:19 - and.

52:20 - So they went in.

52:22 - To make a deal with the.

52:24 - Copyright owners the rod broadcasters and now

52:27 - and then

52:28 - I was an mtg a board at that time

52:30 - and

52:31 - I guess it was nineteen seventy two.

52:33 - Yeah in fact.

52:35 - We were there a couple of times and

52:36 - I stood in line with

52:38 - jack valenti and george walker lohan.

52:40 - You know

52:41 - and we're gone up before the court system

52:43 - what to do with the copyrights and so forth but.

52:46 - We made an agreement with the broadcasters and seventy two

52:49 - where you in agreement with that

52:50 - that

52:51 - compromise that was made.

52:52 - I was

52:53 - blue or know george wasn't.

52:55 - I I

52:56 - knew that I knew that

52:57 - he was very adamant about.

52:59 - Or he didn't want to do but the.

53:01 - And

53:02 - and they

53:02 - blame johnny was and

53:04 - that to

53:04 - vote that swung at the other way but the.

53:08 - I was one.

53:09 - On on the nct a border could have gone one way or the other

53:11 - day had finally agree with.

53:13 - You when when years were you on the and ceta board oh boy.

53:18 - Seven days.

53:19 - In his.

53:21 - Seventies

53:21 - of.

53:23 - Uptet the nineties

53:24 - you know.

53:25 - Cause you go on for two years then yeah they had to go off and on so.

53:29 - I was on at least five six times.

53:32 - You remember who who the chairman of the of the nct

53:35 - as

53:35 - autism bob smith was on.

53:39 - Jim mooney.

53:40 - There's a whole

53:41 - whole mess around them

53:42 - know they were the president's remember that to the

53:44 - volunteer.

53:45 - German were though was.

53:47 - Trailing

53:48 - relinquished.

53:49 - Was yeah he was one of them.

53:51 - During remember.

53:52 - The jack crosby the chairman one time when the do.

53:55 - For you you build resident

53:56 - was just go through.

53:57 - That

53:58 - and.

53:59 - Home mason.

54:01 - Did you ever have any any dealings with dan.

54:04 - Dinner and oh yeah sure.

54:07 - Up in fact.

54:10 - Going back into the.

54:12 - Fifties

54:13 - and sixties.

54:15 - When we used to have the conventions.

54:17 - That they used to be worry we call the gerald sweet.

54:20 - And

54:20 - after the think

54:21 - why we go up there and have a couple of beers

54:24 - but

54:24 - the thing that we did their.

54:26 - Each of the the guys that talk to each other as to.

54:30 - How they fix this how you fix that failure fix that.

54:33 - One that I'll never forget was would vic vehicles and.

54:36 - Where

54:36 - and this was.

54:38 - Early sixty

54:39 - and

54:40 - we still had

54:41 - the and ten aside the equipment was cruel the preamps and you amplifiers and all.

54:45 - And

54:46 - I told the.

54:47 - Well.

54:48 - Pick and I just had a discussion with

54:50 - the boy a tv set works.

54:52 - You can

54:53 - hook it in and

54:54 - pick up anything off and and to.

54:56 - In what they did his put a.

54:58 - System where where they have the tuner an amplifier and the agency

55:02 - and believe it or not.

55:04 - Whatever I.

55:05 - Have written summer what your it was

55:07 - but

55:08 - next year we come out go to the convention and they have what they call it a channel

55:11 - command channel commander

55:13 - which oh what a blessing that was

55:15 - was.

55:15 - Really good and

55:16 - it was as a result of have.

55:19 - Guy.

55:20 - Thing that time that's all they talk shop.

55:23 - Fact amplifiers what he'd do with this I have a problem this way how can I fix.

55:27 - Is.

55:28 - Assistant nothing to them all the time.

55:30 - This but you you are concentrated on geraldo but you also had see

55:33 - here and in.

55:35 - Oh yeah

55:35 - bomber

55:36 - oh

55:37 - a.

55:37 - Are now the

55:38 - dark brown dr brown.

55:40 - That was in the fifties yet.

55:44 - Way over is

55:45 - still

55:45 - trying to get it out.

55:48 - Multi channel amplifier built

55:50 - and he come up with what they call a chain amplifier.

55:53 - And

55:54 - he and I.

55:55 - Used to go out at night

55:57 - and try to equalize the cable

55:59 - so that

56:00 - match the.

56:01 - The chain that.

56:02 - All over again the next morning.

56:04 - When the sun came out

56:05 - the

56:06 - cape the

56:07 - cable when flop the over the other way.

56:09 - And another thing with the story

56:11 - at that time.

56:12 - Johnny had his hold the amplifiers and he had some of ours

56:16 - and.

56:17 - Same thing.

56:18 - It's ones.

56:20 - It's a set of cables that attenuation the daytime another one at night.

56:24 - So what people do every night.

56:27 - At an evening when the sun go down.

56:30 - He took his cadillac

56:31 - drive down and you balance the amplifier.

56:34 - I know they kept those down they didn't put the way I was gonna say

56:37 - another think johnny did is

56:38 - we had our amplifiers up on top

56:40 - of the polls.

56:41 - In one bad thing with that was.

56:44 - We'd be balance and during the night.

56:46 - You're on a ladder

56:48 - and we didn't have to good at communication solar yell

56:50 - up and to

56:51 - download to this and at.

56:53 - The when does it go up she had the heck up you know.

56:56 - Or tried to get some sleep

56:58 - I'm surprised that the

56:59 - telephone companies allowed those the

57:01 - yeah

57:02 - flowers that low because they always you say that

57:04 - interfere with the climbing the polls

57:06 - and it did

57:06 - oh yeah

57:07 - but he he put his amplifiers down.

57:09 - And.

57:11 - Make good sense cause.

57:13 - When

57:13 - the later on do from the power company he got permission.

57:16 - They gave us specs as to how to put them in.

57:19 - Until we went salt state way

57:21 - the amplifiers were down.

57:24 - Oh

57:24 - and another thing he did to

57:26 - oh I'll tell you.

57:27 - You could write a book almost about him

57:29 - is in the beginning when you can keep first he came in with the twin lead

57:33 - I didn't know him at that time.

57:34 - And then when I

57:35 - talked to an open wire.

57:37 - Yeah open wire and heavy twin late.

57:39 - And.

57:41 - So when I talk them into moving is and tennessee to a mountain with he did.

57:45 - In

57:45 - we couldn't get no power up the mountain

57:47 - so somewhere along the way he found

57:50 - the called a k fourteen cable

57:52 - you remember

57:52 - the big fat cable

57:54 - and

57:54 - by the number twelve.

57:56 - Wire in the center of it

57:57 - and we run that up them out here while he run up the mountain

58:00 - and we sent the power up the cable

58:02 - tv down to the cable.

58:04 - I think that was the first time that was ever done this the younger.

58:07 - And then later on and that's when he started cascading to.

58:11 - Eat.

58:12 - Came down from bar bears head

58:14 - down through monday city

58:15 - and

58:16 - to going down towards your advil and everything else.

58:18 - In the only problem there was a.

58:21 - Again the

58:22 - cascade was pretty long and you just pretty hard to control that signal

58:26 - but then a new thing happened to us to.

58:29 - After about a year or two.

58:32 - Attenuation

58:33 - got pretty heavy and a cable

58:35 - and we couldn't figure out what in the world what's happening.

58:37 - Here we found two emulation was lost the signal loss

58:40 - yeah right right to the last time signal.

58:42 - It's a.

58:45 - The

58:45 - characteristic of the cable of change.

58:48 - Shows.

58:49 - Somewhere

58:50 - along the line of one of the amps that were down we saw some water coming out of

58:53 - connectors

58:54 - and sure enough

58:55 - what happened was every word the cable say we went there and

58:58 - cut the thing and water came off the spigot in.

59:02 - Hey that's that's some of the things they had to learn the hard way.

59:06 - Yeah.

59:08 - Do I build any more systems right now

59:09 - the only just say your boys are doing it and

59:11 - they're doing

59:12 - well right now

59:13 - it's.

59:14 - As far as new franchise started towards the of you aren't many available

59:17 - but there systems available that

59:19 - need upgrading need fibers and need improvement and stuff like that.

59:23 - In the owners it's.

59:25 - Quite frankly.

59:26 - Aren't going to spend the money to upgrade them so.

59:29 - We're trying to purchase them and an upgrade.

59:31 - That's what they're doing.

59:34 - That's a.

59:35 - That's a different was smaller systems right now are not that much into demand.

59:38 - Oh excuse me.

59:40 - Not that much in demand know.

59:42 - What you

59:42 - can put together

59:43 - now you have clustered some of your systems all you have like them.

59:46 - In fact you.

59:47 - Somebody said that you will one of the early people to start clustering

59:51 - yeah

59:51 - you did around hazelton

59:52 - yeah

59:53 - right.

59:54 - On barwick the poconos.

59:56 - It's all closer than.

59:58 - And the northeast was

59:59 - 820 one big clusters system something

01:00 - 04.129 that was out in new jersey and.

01:00 - 05.700 New jersey.

01:00 - 06.512 And delaware

01:00 - 07.656 are all closer to.

01:00 - 09.560 Make good sense

01:00 - 11.300 you'd have one in tennis site.

01:00 - 11.959 Or.

01:00 - 13.407 At the most to

01:00 - 15.529 and it can be the dog old towns around.

01:00 - 18.490 Are you mentioned a couple of people that have had a major impact.

01:00 - 20.779 On your business over the years of.

01:00 - 23.480 John walton is one of them.

01:00 - 25.760 John malone is another man

01:00 - 27.280 can you think of any others that

01:00 - 27.501 have

01:00 - 29.900 had a major impact on you and or your business.

01:00 - 31.100 Well

01:00 - 34.340 again a guy who had a lot of like as I mentioned vic nicholson.

01:00 - 35.030 Came

01:00 - 35.570 with the

01:00 - 36.409 general

01:00 - 37.190 name is gerald

01:00 - 38.460 gerald commander.

01:00 - 40.710 And then.

01:00 - 42.980 The seek or people.

01:00 - 45.110 Came out with the.

01:00 - 47.247 Again the first

01:00 - 50.570 broadband systems actually to twenty megahertz and stuff like that.

01:00 - 53.393 Yeah

01:00 - 54.539 the other guy would be.

01:00 - 56.102 Jim patterson.

01:00 - 57.477 Oh yeah

01:00 - 58.652 defending the bank.

01:00 - 59.336 To

01:00 - 59.812 bank.

01:01 - 02.812 In new york yeah now we're looking for funding

01:01 - 04.402 and chicago and chicago.

01:01 - 05.840 And

01:01 - 07.012 so I talked to him

01:01 - 08.402 and john.

01:01 - 09.482 Regards to.

01:01 - 11.962 Everytime he and I drove in between two systems

01:01 - 15.022 why we already did was talk about the banks and stuff like that.

01:01 - 16.532 So.

01:01 - 17.929 I've met.

01:01 - 18.502 a

01:01 - 20.782 gym pearson I don't remember where

01:01 - 22.730 that is were married in bangor these yeah

01:01 - 23.902 I wanted to met him at

01:01 - 24.226 we

01:01 - 26.873 noon from the been at the convention to convention.

01:01 - 29.899 When and I told them what I'm trying to do and.

01:01 - 31.162 So

01:01 - 32.332 I met with the.

01:01 - 34.162 Was a.

01:01 - 35.492 Mellon bank.

01:01 - 36.352 In

01:01 - 37.012 pittsburgh.

01:01 - 38.692 Pittsburgh and they.

01:01 - 39.592 Are

01:01 - 43.162 kind of agreement they wanted to give them everything but her clothes.

01:01 - 45.472 And I said well jesus

01:01 - 47.752 it's it's a system that I'm going to buy it.

01:01 - 48.947 You know.

01:01 - 50.257 The back at upward.

01:01 - 51.542 So of.

01:01 - 54.352 I walked out on that would you believe I went to chicago.

01:01 - 56.112 Had my.

01:01 - 57.502 Projections and so forth

01:01 - 59.009 and I start walking around

01:01 - 01.702 the different banks that see who listen or talk to me

01:02 - 05.602 and I went to see the gym pearson he's the bar you said our marriage or I said why

01:02 - 09.172 you said I tell you are going to come in your first and he was ready for us

01:02 - 11.062 and believe it or not I guess it isn't

01:02 - 12.207 about.

01:02 - 14.212 Two three days we had the law

01:02 - 15.352 and ema I

01:02 - 17.332 wonder he told us that to my attorney

01:02 - 21.262 you said no way in heck and you're going to take a two weeks I know all the paperwork

01:02 - 22.303 them going to be involved.

01:02 - 24.112 In jim said no one can than.

01:02 - 25.612 Two or three days will be done

01:02 - 28.552 and they work this was continental bank and yelling chicago.

01:02 - 29.912 What year was this.

01:02 - 32.452 Seventy seven.

01:02 - 33.121 Eight

01:02 - 35.002 seventy seven seventy seven.

01:02 - 37.044 Be better than northeast

01:02 - 39.719 that's when the banks were starting to to get interested in.

01:02 - 40.672 Right

01:02 - 42.902 you didn't give any personal guarantees at anytime

01:02 - 44.051 know.

01:02 - 45.502 It's and script tribute.

01:02 - 48.322 Know this the system with the guaranteed.

01:02 - 52.127 It you know in the beginning they didn't believe in cable.

01:02 - 53.870 But then after that they.

01:02 - 54.469 Are

01:02 - 55.199 worth to

01:02 - 58.162 people tell you in the early days that you were foolish to get into this business

01:02 - 59.162 that never lasts

01:02 - 01.009 till it oh yeah cause nausea or

01:03 - 02.302 especially in the fifties.

01:03 - 06.652 And there again it was almost impossible to get fat financing.

01:03 - 08.372 Lucky enough.

01:03 - 11.032 Some of our local people make romantic.

01:03 - 11.992 And.

01:03 - 13.323 People we knew.

01:03 - 15.112 Usual renew local banks did you go.

01:03 - 15.802 There.

01:03 - 16.552 Had print

01:03 - 17.702 collateral for that.

01:03 - 19.442 We had to atlanta right.

01:03 - 21.032 At all.

01:03 - 21.592 So you

01:03 - 25.372 you did you some of your personal assets than earlier or your your home and I'm gonna

01:03 - 27.220 be enacted in the beginning the very beginning.

01:03 - 29.492 Yup.

01:03 - 31.899 So now you're just kind of taking it easy and.

01:03 - 34.105 Playing golf or whatever you want to do it.

01:03 - 35.376 I'm a fisherman

01:03 - 36.566 both of them.

01:03 - 38.107 Yeah.

01:03 - 40.583 I still not spending any time at home though.

01:03 - 42.352 Yes we are

01:03 - 43.532 some.

01:03 - 43.867 We can.

01:03 - 45.742 Work dynamical go off again

01:03 - 47.913 okay but you're going fishing with him now oh yeah

01:03 - 48.382 okay

01:03 - 48.832 but

01:03 - 49.982 I still liked.

01:03 - 51.512 What's happening with the

01:03 - 52.762 cable center and.

01:03 - 56.268 Thing and a potential as he's still on the boring and.

01:03 - 57.632 Cable and then

01:03 - 59.422 sell selling cable still long.

01:04 - 01.372 We.

01:04 - 05.422 Reserve the great help to us and there's going to be interesting when they put all of

01:04 - 07.582 that equipment into the cable center.

01:04 - 09.718 When you're going to come out and says.

01:04 - 10.742 Oh yeah.

01:04 - 11.572 I got some

01:04 - 12.692 put out there too but.

01:04 - 15.412 I think there's some at the luther holes amplifiers

01:04 - 16.526 of ours are around.

01:04 - 18.712 I know dave was as those on

01:04 - 19.863 in in the.

01:04 - 21.922 Archives right now available out there yeah

01:04 - 23.952 I didn't realize he has some of the whole sloan.

01:04 - 24.712 You know

01:04 - 26.770 what was luther's a plant was that the.

01:04 - 27.652 City.

01:04 - 29.214 Yep.

01:04 - 30.872 Yup.

01:04 - 33.952 I dunno where we are going to go with this any further so I think we'll just put a

01:04 - 34.952 stop to it then

01:04 - 38.035 I think we've covered a lot of the things that you may not have covered.

01:04 - 40.222 In your original oral history and again.

01:04 - 44.422 I would repeat that anyone looking at this interview should also.

01:04 - 48.401 Review the transcript of your all history done at pennsylvania.

01:04 - 49.432 University of penn

01:04 - 50.842 penn state university.

01:04 - 54.922 In october of nineteen eighty nine by professors a stretch smith.

01:04 - 58.102 This has been the all history of joseph s

01:04 - 00.352 s and irene ganz.

01:05 - 02.842 The date again is.

01:05 - 04.492 August the third

01:05 - 08.512 twenty or one wherein in gettysburg pennsylvania your interviewer was jim keller

01:05 - 11.952 thanks joe and thank you I read has been over a cliff and pressure should thank you.

01:05 - 38.389 It.