00:01 - Yolanda Barco,

00:03 - practicing attorney at the law firm of Barco

00:05 - and Barco in Meadville, Pennsylvania, and the president

00:08 - and chief executive officer of Pennsylvania Cable Network.

00:12 - We first ask you a little bit about how you got interested

00:14 - in the law and the legal profession.

00:18 - Well, Bill, I can't remember a time

00:21 - since perhaps I was ten or 11

00:25 - that I didn't seriously

00:29 - believe that I would be a lawyer.

00:31 - Part of this was encouragement and direction from my father.

00:35 - I am sure, so that when I went to college

00:41 - I knew I was going to take the pre-law course, which I did.

00:45 - By then when I was in college, I had some thoughts.

00:50 - What were the second thoughts in relation to?

00:52 - Well, I was an economics major

00:56 - and the

00:57 - I was very interested in economics both as a

01:01 - you know, as I would say, an academic thing.

01:03 - And also in terms of living the capitalistic system.

01:09 - And so I told my father,

01:13 - I'm not sure I want to be a lawyer anymore.

01:16 - And he said and I said, I'd like to go to graduate school.

01:20 - I had some fellowships offered to me.

01:23 - And he said, Yeah.

01:25 - And of course, my father, a very, very persuasive person.

01:30 - And he said to me, Well, why don't you

01:33 - go one year to law school?

01:34 - And this is what he said. Bill.

01:36 - Every woman should go to law school for one year

01:41 - because he said nothing is sadder than to be left

01:44 - a widow and not know how to handle your affairs.

01:47 - Well,

01:48 - I agreed to law school for one year, and then I.

01:51 - I stayed with it and enjoyed and enjoyed it very much.

01:56 - What was it like for you when you first graduated?

02:00 - You went into practice with your father was well.

02:05 - My father was a help and on the other hand,

02:08 - he was a person that like to fight your own battles.

02:13 - I would tell you, first of all, that I was the only woman

02:16 - in northwest Pennsylvania and other were poor.

02:19 - One woman lawyer.

02:21 - There were quite a number of them in Pittsburgh.

02:23 - By that I mean ten, 15 or so, maybe more.

02:26 - But those are the ones I knew.

02:28 - There was no one in Erie or any of the Northwest

02:32 - for at least 15 to 20 years.

02:35 - I had the ladies room all to myself.

02:38 - And it was and I will tell you, Bill, very honestly,

02:42 - it was more difficult to be young than to be female.

02:46 - And you get older getting young.

02:50 - Why is that?

02:51 - Why is it more difficult to be out?

02:53 - Because lawyers,

02:56 - especially in a

02:57 - in the general practitioners like I was in Crawford County,

03:01 - they don't think you've arrived until you've practiced

03:05 - at least 10 to 15 years.

03:08 - And I had a problem

03:10 - in the fact that I was two different older people.

03:13 - I had been trained

03:15 - to be courteous to older people, and I had a tendency,

03:18 - instead of meeting all the older lawyers on an equal basis,

03:23 - because I was young, I would tended to

03:27 - be subject

03:29 - to them instead of being person to person.

03:32 - I got over that too, though.

03:38 - What kinds of I mean, what kind of

03:41 - law practice?

03:43 - And I my I would say that we were general

03:47 - practitioners, my father and I, but we concentrated

03:51 - in corporate and business work, in trial work,

03:55 - especially on personal injury cases and administrative law.

04:00 - Then after we got into cable television,

04:04 - we we began to have

04:07 - to specialize somewhat in cable television law.

04:11 - Also, I would say

04:14 - in my own strengths,

04:17 - has between my father and me,

04:19 - for instance, he was wonderful with juries.

04:22 - And, you know, you have to there's a whole business

04:25 - of relating to them and communicating with them

04:29 - from the first time you start your case.

04:32 - And he was very good at that.

04:35 - I was good from that when I was best.

04:39 - Ted was argument court work.

04:42 - I discussing law either in the course of the case or

04:48 - on appeals we took

04:50 - and we divided important cases between us

04:54 - and I would usually do the closing to the jury.

04:57 - By that time they had gotten used to me and I had

05:02 - you know, it took me a while to do the communicating,

05:05 - whereas he could do it right off the back.

05:09 - You would

05:10 - mentioned cable television and I do want to get into that.

05:13 - But let me let me ask you first, what was it like growing up in

05:17 - Meadville, Pennsylvania, which is situated

05:19 - between Pittsburgh and Erie for this?

05:22 - Well, I love Meadville.

05:24 - It has a town and it was a wonderful town.

05:28 - And it has a

05:33 - very good, sound

05:36 - economic base with the town, with the railroad.

05:39 - Most of the people in my background of Italian

05:43 - origin came to work on the railroad

05:46 - and then the town started in the twenties,

05:50 - or perhaps the late twenties.

05:53 - Meadville was a town that they said

05:55 - never saw the Depression because the town

05:59 - was growing at the time that the Depression started.

06:02 - And then the Americans this coast was the other economic

06:06 - important

06:07 - entity in the county and in the city.

06:10 - I should say too.

06:13 - We had a wonderful, close family life.

06:16 - We had a wonderful relationship to the people

06:20 - that we lived with.

06:20 - We had a wonderful neighborhood

06:23 - and on the whole of us, it was good.

06:26 - Did you ever think about leaving the area

06:29 - because you grew up here and you practiced law here?

06:32 - I had many opportunities to leave.

06:35 - In a sense.

06:36 - That was one of the things that was my experiences

06:40 - that I've had in my father's have the same experience.

06:43 - We've had many more opportunities

06:46 - than we could take advantage of, and I know

06:49 - he had many opportunities.

06:54 - I can't say why, Bill, but it never

06:57 - I never seriously considered it, even though

07:00 - some of these opportunities appealed to me very, very much.

07:04 - But I had opportunities from the time I graduated

07:08 - from law school.

07:10 - There were there

07:11 - were two business firms in Pittsburgh.

07:14 - Those were the days of they just beginning thick.

07:16 - You had to hire house counsel.

07:19 - You see,

07:20 - I liked the idea of being House Counsel

07:22 - because you see, I like the business part of it

07:24 - and I like being a lawyer for a business.

07:27 - I had two wonderful offers,

07:29 - but I felt I owed my father something after that

07:33 - wonderful education I got, and I thought

07:35 - I'd come here and work for about five years and leave.

07:39 - But I got too tied up with the town and with

07:41 - everything in the practice, and

07:45 - it was hard to leave and I never did leave.

07:48 - Let's talk a little bit about cable television.

07:51 - How did you first get involved in cable television?

07:55 - I was an innocent bystander.

07:57 - My father was the one who got involved.

08:00 - He loved

08:03 - anything that

08:06 - was a source of information.

08:08 - And he had heard about television,

08:10 - was interested in television.

08:12 - At that time, I heard maybe I was still in law school.

08:16 - I can't remember what it was,

08:18 - but I was extremely young in practice.

08:21 - I don't think I was a lawyer yet.

08:23 - We went to New York

08:26 - to be practicing Law Institute, which he attended

08:29 - regularly as a lawyer, taking continuing education courses.

08:35 - And he was very interested in this was about 51.

08:39 - He was very interested that they had television

08:42 - and he was looking forward to it.

08:44 - He was paying $2 a day for it in his room.

08:47 - And he began to complain to me

08:50 - that it wasn't working in his room and

08:53 - I didn't pay too much attention to him.

08:55 - One day when I came back from shopping

08:57 - and went to his room, I saw that it was filled with people

09:01 - and he had made such a fuss that they had brought

09:04 - the people who put the master antenna system in in the hotel

09:09 - there to explain what was wrong.

09:12 - So that was his introduction

09:13 - to master antenna on cable television.

09:17 - And he said, Well, if you can do this for a hotel,

09:20 - could you do it for a city?

09:21 - And they said their community and they said

09:23 - they're working on it.

09:25 - And so he started with our and the people

09:28 - who had this system in the hotel was RCA.

09:32 - And he began to communicate with RCA.

09:35 - And for about a year they didn't do anything.

09:38 - And then they referred him to Jerrold

09:41 - and he went there, and that's how it started.

09:44 - Now he got into cable television, and I'm like anybody

09:47 - that I know because he wanted it

09:50 - for our town and for himself.

09:53 - It was never a business venture of any kind for him.

09:56 - And he was always, as we

09:58 - said, a consumer.

10:03 - You mentioned

10:04 - you just mentioned Jerrold, and he did a lot with Jerrold.

10:08 - Can you tell people what exactly Jerrold was and who who?

10:12 - Oh, Jerrold was spelled jer0ld and no J.

10:18 - Sharp's middle name was Jerrold.

10:21 - And that's where the name of the company came from.

10:24 - And Milton J.

10:26 - Sharp, as I'm sure many of your viewers know,

10:30 - was a governor of the Commonwealth, Pennsylvania.

10:32 - But before that,

10:34 - he was a businessman who started in his garage

10:37 - with $500 of capital, ended up with the American Dream,

10:45 - with Jerrold Electronics Corporation,

10:46 - which was the major supplier and developer

10:51 - of electronic equipment for for cable television systems.

10:56 - And for years, perhaps 10 to 15

11:00 - was the career leader. And

11:04 - Milton Chapin and his company were important

11:07 - to the development of cable television because they were

11:12 - a source of strength in the technology area

11:17 - and also in the business areas as well.

11:21 - Mr. Sharp was a very,

11:24 - very fine person

11:26 - and my father and he were very close friends

11:29 - and once your father got involved

11:32 - in this venture, how did you come in?

11:35 - Well, it's a very strange thing, Bill, because I really

11:40 - was not an active or,

11:42 - you know, an active

11:45 - pursuer of this.

11:46 - But I, I, I liked the fact that it was a business.

11:51 - I told you I was interested in business.

11:54 - So when he became

11:56 - interested in it, he formed me home at Trenton.

12:01 - And there you see, you can tell how old we were

12:04 - because master antenna really isn't a correct

12:08 - name for a cable company serving a community.

12:11 - It was then a community antenna

12:14 - television, and it changed to cable television.

12:18 - But we were the old people

12:21 - that started when it was really simply an adaptation of the

12:26 - technology used in hotels and apartment houses.

12:29 - Anyway,

12:31 - I was thrilled because I became the general

12:34 - manager of this company and I was general manager

12:37 - for a five year period until James J.

12:40 - Dratch came on the scene and he took that over.

12:44 - So I enjoyed it because it was a business venture

12:48 - that was my interest in it.

12:51 - And of course, Bill, you cannot imagine

12:54 - the combination of circumstances in those early days because

13:00 - cable came from extremely humble beginnings.

13:04 - I mean, as I have said on other occasions,

13:09 - nobody in their right mind would have gotten in the business.

13:12 - It had so many problems, so many things

13:16 - that had to be straightened out,

13:18 - that had to be dealt with.

13:20 - The technology was was was not developed much.

13:25 - People didn't like the idea of having to pay

13:28 - for what they thought other people got for free,

13:32 - how there

13:33 - was nobody would lend you any money.

13:36 - The have the

13:39 - legal basis on which you were picking up

13:41 - signals was not established.

13:45 - It was a question as to whether that was appropriate

13:48 - and getting a place in the rights of way

13:51 - in the public rights of way was very, very difficult

13:56 - in dealing with the utility companies was difficult.

14:01 - So all these problems were there and

14:06 - but at the same time,

14:08 - the industry had an irresistible appeal.

14:11 - So many people

14:14 - would join. It never leave it.

14:16 - You know, we would go to conventions

14:17 - and the people

14:18 - there were just taking the recordings of the proceedings

14:21 - would stop that business and get the cable.

14:24 - It was it had a lot of appeal.

14:27 - So I have been interested very much

14:31 - in the

14:33 - economic and business side, and I think it's a great privilege

14:36 - that I had to see this grow from a small mom and pop

14:42 - peripheral kind of business

14:44 - that everybody thought was short term.

14:47 - Anybody thought we were in a trust

14:48 - until something would happen, which would take care of these

14:53 - blind spots in the eye and the reception.

14:56 - And most of the people in the beginning saw

14:59 - we were simply supplementary to broadcast thing to take care

15:03 - of reception problems

15:04 - in the outlying areas or in the areas behind my eyes.

15:08 - My father never looked at it that way.

15:10 - He always thought it had the potential

15:13 - of being a multiple

15:17 - service type of thing beyond simply

15:20 - being an adjunct to broadcasting.

15:24 - Yes, he had mentioned some of the legal issues and I guess

15:28 - you were in a unique position

15:31 - because not only were you involved in the cable industry,

15:34 - but in the legal profession,

15:36 - can you go into

15:36 - some of your involvement in the early legal issues?

15:40 - Yes, I can.

15:41 - And I want you to know

15:42 - that this was the interesting thing about my father and me.

15:46 - He was

15:48 - he was interested in the service very much.

15:52 - He wanted it to grow.

15:54 - He spent a lot of his time encouraging everybody

15:57 - that he came across to develop the technology.

16:02 - But as far as working in it,

16:04 - it was all the law for him.

16:07 - I on the other hand, I was I worked with him on the law,

16:12 - but I was interested in the business as such.

16:18 - You cannot imagine how weak the industry was to begin with

16:23 - when you had to remember that we had to build plant

16:29 - on public rights of way and as I say

16:32 - the and the law as to whether or not

16:36 - we had a right to be there was not clear

16:39 - and we had very permits

16:42 - from here from the municipalities

16:45 - and the municipalities simply would say to us, okay, you can

16:49 - you can occupy the rights of way,

16:51 - but you have to get on existing utility poles.

16:55 - But they would have nothing to do with seeing

16:57 - that we got fair treatment from these utility companies.

17:01 - So we had to deal with people which were

17:04 - who were holding all the cards, who didn't much want to

17:08 - sound the polls to begin with, because we were, you know,

17:11 - somebody they had to deal with, they didn't want to deal with.

17:15 - And especially the telephone

17:18 - companies were very unfair in their treatment.

17:21 - But we had no one to go to.

17:24 - My father was extremely important in this period

17:27 - because he helped

17:30 - clear the way for many, many of the operators,

17:35 - and they were just small town business people.

17:38 - Most of them or goodly number of them were were

17:42 - television and dealers, and they were in it to sell sets, but

17:50 - most of them had good enough relationship.

17:52 - And remember, this was a small town business

17:55 - that they knew the people.

17:56 - So he would help

17:59 - clear the way, legally speaking and for solicitors

18:03 - and that sort of thing in cases where it needed to be done.

18:06 - And also, however, the most important legal work

18:11 - we did was in negotiating with telephone and power companies

18:15 - to try to get fair and workable conditions.

18:18 - As an example, Bill,

18:19 - almost all of the agreements in the early days,

18:23 - even though it cost thousands of dollars for us

18:25 - to put in a mile of plant, provided that we got no rights

18:30 - for being on the poles no matter how long we were there.

18:35 - And we could be asked to leave on six months notice.

18:39 - We couldn't change that agreement, that provision.

18:41 - We tried and we had some some

18:46 - some strategies we used, but

18:49 - legally speaking, they could tell you to get off the poles.

18:52 - Who had all your plant?

18:54 - Did you do that?

18:55 - You see, they never could do it because the service

18:59 - was so popular with people and you know,

19:03 - what was in the contract really didn't matter.

19:07 - But you didn't know that before.

19:08 - You put your money down.

19:11 - What about the FCC?

19:14 - You were on a a panel of cable

19:18 - or representative cable on a

19:22 - some regulations?

19:23 - Well, the first area of our involvement

19:29 - with any government is with local government to get

19:34 - and I call it the permits or the resolution

19:38 - authorizing or allowing you to produce a public voice.

19:42 - Later, they became franchises.

19:45 - Franchises are different because they gave

19:48 - certain legal rights.

19:51 - And I have to tell you that

19:56 - the first period of cable,

20:00 - which I would say was from 1950

20:03 - to 1965,

20:07 - in the late sixties, was one where,

20:10 - you know,

20:11 - the cable that the municipalities

20:13 - were only involved

20:14 - in allowing you to get on and they didn't get involved with

20:18 - giving you exclusivity or regulating you in any way.

20:23 - And it was permitted, by the way, those earlier ones

20:26 - require that you do whatever was required

20:30 - for a safety.

20:33 - But then starting in the late

20:34 - sixties to their more serious

20:39 - investors became in there and they began

20:41 - approaching cities to get franchises

20:46 - and to

20:46 - get certain bundle of rights to protect their investments.

20:50 - And then they began to compete for franchises.

20:54 - And I think one of the

20:57 - unfortunate

20:59 - episodes in the development of the industry

21:02 - was the cutthroat competition, and it developed for franchises

21:07 - with companies offering things

21:10 - that were absolutely out of the question

21:13 - and there was a lot more I could tell you about that.

21:15 - But in the end, they they infused

21:21 - or gave a lot of power to municipalities

21:25 - and the industry generally in that period.

21:28 - And in the seventies, the industry was in favor

21:32 - of municipal regular portion of the industry.

21:35 - My father and I were always strongly opposed to that.

21:40 - We did not think that this industry,

21:42 - with all of its multiple municipal cities, its

21:45 - eventual nationwide influence,

21:47 - should be governed by its policies.

21:50 - In Meadville, for instance,

21:53 - we are in practice.

21:55 - We were in, I would say, 15 municipalities.

21:59 - To take care of 30,000 people.

22:03 - You had to go to every one of them.

22:05 - Now, fortunately, we started at a time when

22:08 - there wasn't any great regulation.

22:11 - But as I say, in

22:12 - most of the later ones there was.

22:16 - So then in 1972,

22:19 - the Federal Communications Commission.

22:22 - And by the way, at the same time, during all this period,

22:25 - especially the early 5 to 6 years, there was forays

22:30 - into regulation by state public utility commissions.

22:35 - And there was another legal issue.

22:37 - Legal issue then my father was very much involved in it.

22:41 - First, his efforts were simply as one of the cable people, but

22:45 - he became, oh, in 1955,

22:48 - I believe, general counsel

22:52 - and at that time

22:55 - when he was representing the Pennsylvania industry.

22:58 - So there was this city city regulator,

23:02 - this municipal regulation, there was always

23:05 - hovering over US public utility regulation.

23:09 - And then the FCC felt it had some interests.

23:13 - So they formed this committee, and I was one of

23:17 - four or six industry people on this committee

23:20 - that was supposed to study and make a recommendation

23:23 - to the FCC as to how this industry should be regulated

23:28 - and the

23:32 - the industry, except for me, took the position

23:37 - that they should be regulated by what they called

23:40 - the most local rule of government for

23:44 - the state people on the committee,

23:47 - so that they should be regulated by the PUC.

23:51 - And I was one of the few people thought

23:53 - that they should be regulated by the FCC.

23:57 - My my position was absolutely

24:00 - shocking to the industry.

24:03 - And of course, we were very well

24:05 - known by the industry at that time.

24:08 - But the reason the industry didn't want state

24:11 - regulation was because they knew that the state regulation,

24:16 - first of all, would be public utility,

24:17 - which economically was not appropriate for cable.

24:22 - But more importantly,

24:25 - the reality was that the

24:27 - State Public Utility Commission was pretty much

24:31 - the turf of the telephone companies.

24:35 - So, you know, they had their inside track there

24:39 - and the industry

24:40 - did not want the FCC because it had connections

24:43 - with the broadcast industry, which was another

24:47 - another industry

24:49 - that we had problems with.

24:52 - But I felt, no,

24:56 - in this particular field,

24:59 - my father was not really involved in the position.

25:01 - I talked that with my own position

25:07 - when the report went in

25:08 - with the majority report, which was the industry report

25:12 - that went for the most local level government.

25:16 - And then there was the minority report which said

25:19 - either the PUC alone or the state

25:23 - regulatory agency alone or the state in the city.

25:27 - And there was another serious problem, because in some

25:30 - ways there were two layers.

25:34 - And I was the only one who said

25:36 - that the city should be involved,

25:38 - only was saying that the right way were safe

25:41 - and the construction was correct.

25:44 - But as far as regulating the industry, it should be done

25:48 - by a group that would have national

25:52 - jurisdiction.

25:53 - I remember we wanted some help on these pole attachments

25:56 - to which we certainly were not going to get any place

26:00 - at the FCC.

26:00 - And that's where we got some.

26:03 - And so my statement was there were

26:05 - we called in and a not affiliated statement,

26:09 - and it went in all over myself.

26:12 - And in two years now at that time, we were being

26:15 - regulated by,

26:17 - by, by local government, under,

26:21 - under support by the FCC.

26:24 - In other words, this FCC

26:27 - approved of it.

26:28 - And everything we did at the local level

26:31 - was was their direction and with their approval.

26:35 - And in

26:35 - two years after the report, when these reports went in,

26:40 - the Federal Communications Commission withdrew from

26:46 - local jurisdiction,

26:48 - greatly reduced it.

26:50 - And I don't know where we'd be today if I hadn't.

26:55 - Would I answer your question?

26:56 - Yes, you did.

26:58 - What kinds of.

26:59 - I only get the Pennsylvania Cable and Time

27:02 - Communications Association.

27:05 - I guess that's now.

27:08 - Yes, that's what we're called today.

27:10 - Formerly the Pennsylvania cable television Association

27:15 - is now the Pennsylvania Cable Telecommunications Association.

27:19 - Can you tell us a little bit about the beginnings of that

27:22 - and why it was necessary and your involvement?

27:25 - It was formed as a nonprofit corporation,

27:28 - a trade association in 1957.

27:32 - And I was one of the one of the corporators.

27:37 - But as in formally speaking, we were working informally

27:42 - together for at least three to 4 to 5 years before that time,

27:47 - and mostly because of the PUC problems.

27:49 - And to some extent we began to get into the telephone

27:54 - and power company problems

27:58 - in that pre

27:59 - in that period before 1957,

28:03 - it was an unincorporated association.

28:06 - We met whenever we needed to be.

28:07 - We had excellent

28:09 - participation.

28:10 - I mean, when there was a problem,

28:11 - everybody came together. My father more or less

28:15 - was in charge, as has the

28:17 - lawyer, because we only met on a kind of legal issues,

28:20 - PUC and the and the telephone issues.

28:24 - Then we formed this organization.

28:27 - The first president was Bob Tarleton, and

28:32 - we continued in a more formalized way.

28:36 - Its main purpose was to take care of industry

28:39 - concerns as involved involving regulation

28:43 - and our relationship with the,

28:47 - with the,

28:49 - with utility companies.

28:52 - As time went on,

28:54 - we became involved in, in issues like the copyright issue.

28:58 - And one thing, Bob, Bill, you have to recognize

29:02 - is that

29:03 - the Pennsylvania Association was a during the early period

29:07 - and I would say for some time by far the strongest state

29:11 - association had tremendous influence nationwide

29:16 - and many of the policies of the national group

29:20 - were started at the Pennsylvania Association level.

29:25 - I went up, oh, I was a director for

29:31 - a good many years, I think

29:32 - something I can't remember now, but

29:36 - 15 to 20 years.

29:38 - And the president for three terms.

29:41 - Did cable come into its town in Pennsylvania?

29:44 - Oh, yes.

29:46 - The industry as a business, there's no

29:48 - there's little question as to, you know,

29:50 - which system was the first system.

29:53 - But that's pretty much resolved now as to which was first.

29:57 - But as there's no question that it's a business enterprise

30:01 - and as an industry, it started in Pennsylvania.

30:05 - And the industry is whole, whole impetus

30:10 - and direction and leadership was in Pennsylvania.

30:14 - I know chap had his Jerrold Electronics here

30:17 - which was the big supplier of the

30:21 - of electronic equipment

30:24 - and we had more cable companies

30:26 - in Pennsylvania with more

30:31 - dense

30:32 - concerns and people

30:35 - paying subscribers than any place else.

30:38 - Of course, California later on, maybe 15 to 20 years later,

30:44 - became much, much bigger than us.

30:45 - But as far as influence on the development,

30:48 - it was Pennsylvania.

30:51 - How do you see the industry today?

30:55 - Well, boy, that's a tough one, Bill.

31:00 - I told you that I was disappointed

31:02 - when the industry went for this most local level

31:05 - government regulation.

31:08 - The thing that is that it's always

31:10 - been a problem with me in the industry

31:13 - and I I'm not you know, I am part of the industry.

31:18 - I am a cable person.

31:22 - But I would say that one of the things that

31:26 - I think has been a shortcoming on our part

31:30 - comes from our roots in our background

31:32 - as being essentially

31:36 - territorial.

31:37 - We are fixed.

31:41 - In other words,

31:42 - we went for permits to do business in a certain place.

31:47 - And we we have always seen ourselves individually

31:52 - as being the

31:54 - cable company serving this geographic area.

31:58 - I think the industry has never taken the time

32:02 - to have put an act together

32:06 - nationally

32:08 - in order to develop very real interconnection

32:12 - for the

32:15 - best use of our technology.

32:19 - Today, we you know, one of the things that has

32:22 - cable operator in the early days when I talked about

32:25 - humble beginnings,

32:27 - we didn't get any respect

32:30 - from the broadcasters.

32:32 - They thought, aha,

32:33 - they thought our technology was very Mickey Mouse.

32:36 - We got no respect from the telephone companies because they

32:39 - are never here and gone tomorrow.

32:41 - And, you know, we didn't even

32:43 - we didn't even own any part of the place

32:46 - where our business rested.

32:49 - But the interesting thing is that our technology has proved

32:53 - to be the technology as far as what we can get into the home

33:01 - about the industry today.

33:02 - I wish her my wish would be that we had

33:09 - more and more unified

33:13 - and coordinated treatment on the development

33:17 - of the telecommunications part of the industry.

33:20 - It cannot develop as fast

33:23 - as well as it should

33:26 - when we are all see.

33:28 - The other part of cable is the entertainment part

33:32 - and the relationship to this given geographical area.

33:37 - And we tend to be rooted in our geographical area

33:39 - instead of in the in the universe.

33:42 - So I think

33:44 - all come out okay in the end

33:48 - by they won't be as fast as it should be

33:50 - and it won't be as perhaps as as

33:57 - you know, so well

33:58 - done as it could be.

34:02 - See, we have the and the entertainment is one part

34:06 - and then the telecommunications is another part.

34:11 - Pennsylvania Cable Network.

34:13 - Talk a little bit about the beginnings of the network.

34:18 - The Pennsylvania Cable Network is know

34:21 - it's just an extremely

34:25 - fine indication of the kind of leadership

34:28 - Pennsylvania has always had in cable

34:31 - there.

34:32 - And there isn't anything like it anywhere else in the country

34:35 - it started out as a purely voluntary

34:38 - enterprise by 11 cable companies.

34:42 - My father was a leader, but He was just one

34:45 - leader of this entire 11 group

34:49 - that on their own organized

34:52 - this effort

34:56 - to interconnect the cable companies in Pennsylvania

34:59 - for the distribution of educational programing.

35:03 - And there was a partnership between the industry

35:06 - and PC and represented the industry

35:09 - and Pennsylvania State University, which represented

35:12 - higher education to do the programing.

35:16 - And it started in 1979

35:19 - and we went statewide in 1983

35:23 - and a 24 hour service

35:25 - was provided from 1983,

35:29 - and it was run with the

35:30 - partnership until about 1997

35:36 - when PC and took over the entire channel

35:40 - and began

35:43 - to continue in a change of emphasis

35:48 - from education to public affairs, programing.

35:53 - In 1989, my father passed away

35:57 - and after he passed away we had an entire revue.

36:02 - His His his focus was on education

36:05 - and bill, while Penn State did a very fine job

36:08 - and while we did do good work, public never went

36:14 - for education as strongly as we thought they would.

36:18 - The cable operator who participated

36:20 - did not get a bang out of it.

36:23 - His public didn't see that.

36:24 - I told you, they're very sensitive to their own markets.

36:28 - And people were not not

36:31 - I wasn't interested somehow.

36:34 - So after my father passed on, I was sent

36:38 - president had a thorough review of everything and looked

36:42 - and I made a point to talk to every man.

36:45 - So at the highest level I could reach talked about what

36:49 - they thought we should do.

36:50 - They said we re still interested in education, but

36:53 - what we really want is public service programing.

36:56 - That's what they said.

36:58 - So we began to change our emphasis.

37:01 - And it is true that public affairs

37:04 - programing has had much stronger

37:08 - acceptance and interest

37:10 - on the part of viewers and cable operators

37:14 - than the education did.

37:15 - Now, we still have a commitment to higher education,

37:19 - and we still feel that there's an important place.

37:23 - But the thing that's fueling

37:26 - what we're doing now is the public affairs program.

37:30 - Why do you think that is?

37:31 - You disappointed

37:32 - that the public didn't go for the educational programs?

37:36 - Are? I was surprised,

37:41 - but, you know, we made tests of who was

37:47 - who was taking these courses that we had.

37:51 - And my father's dream was that

37:53 - we would do something for literacy,

37:56 - which he considered to be a terribly important matter.

37:59 - And he was interested in literacy.

38:01 - In fact, that was one of the big things he hoped it would do.

38:05 - And then

38:07 - higher education for people who could not afford it

38:10 - or get it any other way

38:11 - or weren't able to go campuses and things.

38:15 - When we made the surveys, we found that people

38:18 - with education were the ones who were using it

38:22 - in other words, the educated people had more education.

38:27 - But the highly educated

38:30 - to come, you need something.

38:32 - You have to have a lot to move them in that direction.

38:36 - We didn't have anything to move them in that direction.

38:40 - There wasn't a third component,

38:44 - which is heavy, heavy promotion.

38:48 - So that's all I have to say about that.

38:52 - What about the importance of

38:55 - public affairs?

38:57 - Oh, I think it's very important.

39:00 - And I think that the public, the Pennsylvania Cable Network,

39:04 - is involved in a new kind of service,

39:07 - which I think the industry, you know, should

39:13 - should get on with,

39:15 - see all of the of the effort.

39:19 - And its diversity so far is all nationally oriented,

39:23 - excepting for some local sports efforts.

39:27 - But all the programing is national programing.

39:31 - I mean, where is the diversity as far as

39:35 - the things that are common to an area?

39:38 - And you know as well as I do

39:41 - that the states have very important functions

39:45 - in the affairs of government and in the affairs of life.

39:49 - And I think that

39:51 - the Pennsylvania Cable Network is on the frontier,

39:53 - a very important development,

39:56 - what can happen when you interconnect

40:01 - a community.

40:02 - And in this case, we're talking about Pennsylvania.

40:05 - I think it's going to have

40:06 - a tremendous influence on our state government,

40:10 - and I think it will have influence in other areas because

40:14 - it just isn't state government,

40:16 - although that's the most important aspect of it.

40:19 - It's all the other things we do

40:21 - which make people more aware of our heritage,

40:26 - of our very valuable resources, of our past.

40:31 - This section

40:33 - has the richness

40:36 - of our history.

40:38 - These things are all important for the

40:41 - for the community.

40:43 - And I think we're in a very,

40:45 - very experimental and development era place.

40:48 - And I don't think we in PCN yet understand the importance

40:52 - of what we're doing.

40:56 - Do you see the industry moving

40:59 - in that kind of a direction or where

41:00 - do you see the industry moving?

41:03 - Unfortunately, I do not see the industry moving

41:06 - in that direction

41:11 - as much as I think it should go.

41:14 - I you know as well as I do that a lot of people ask us

41:18 - what we're doing and how we're doing it and so forth.

41:22 - But there has to be an element of leadership

41:25 - on the part of the industry to do this.

41:28 - I think it is good for the government to do it.

41:31 - It doesn't work if the government does it.

41:34 - And I think that the

41:37 - I'm hopeful that we will lead the way at the industry will.

41:41 - But I don't think I don't think we've had enough

41:45 - of a national impact yet to do it.

41:47 - But I,

41:48 - I believe that as soon as we reach a certain point

41:52 - of critical mass, we don't have enough subscribers yet.

41:56 - Bill,

41:57 - we're coming there and we're reaching it.

42:00 - But you know that this whole enterprise is

42:03 - had to be sold by the WHO.

42:06 - We have a few leaders with us,

42:08 - but there are a few leaders we need we don't have yet.

42:12 - When we reach the point that we really have

42:15 - most of the subscribers,

42:16 - I think you're going to see a difference in the

42:19 - in the impact of what we do

42:22 - and its influence not only in Pennsylvania, but nationwide.

42:25 - I think when that happens, others will begin to follow

42:29 - suit.

42:32 - You mentioned leaders and I want to ask you,

42:35 - but in your opinion, where do leaders I mean,

42:38 - where do industry leaders come from,

42:40 - seem like this is an industry,

42:41 - the cable industry that was built

42:43 - from the ground up by various different people.

42:46 - And as it develops, where do the leaders, I guess, emerge from?

42:49 - How do you.

42:50 - Well, leadership was easier in the days

42:56 - of the mom and pops than it is today.

43:04 - We had some marvelous industry leaders

43:07 - up until, I would say the end of the 1970s.

43:12 - But the bigness of some of

43:15 - the larger MSOs is such that

43:22 - there is no possibility for the development

43:26 - of a leadership that can really be effective.

43:30 - Now, I think many of the many of the MSO

43:33 - leadership at the very top,

43:36 - if you read some of their if you read for instance,

43:39 - what the Comcast

43:41 - top management writes about and what

43:44 - the TCI top executives write about,

43:48 - they sense that they need this.

43:50 - And some of them are going in the direction of

43:53 - decentralizing the the organization.

43:59 - But in the end, leadership

44:04 - excuse me, is like anything else, and

44:11 - it starts with education at the ground level.

44:17 - I mean, it is not something that happens

44:21 - once a person is arrived with a big important job.

44:25 - The whole business of being a leader is something that has

44:28 - to be developed,

44:30 - just like

44:31 - good citizenship, just like another good quality character.

44:37 - And you have to be a leader in your community

44:41 - before you can be a leader any place else.

44:44 - And you have to be a leader.

44:46 - You have to be willing to take what leaders take.

44:49 - Now, followership is very important, too.

44:53 - I mean, you know, we can all be leaders, but

44:57 - I learned a lot when I was on city council about leadership.

45:02 - And it's like there aren't as many people who want

45:08 - to be trial lawyers anymore because

45:13 - people like to lose.

45:15 - And if you're a leader, you're going to have to lose some.

45:18 - And so the whole idea

45:21 - of leadership, I think you you put your finger on something.

45:24 - It's very important, Bill.

45:27 - We do not have leaders enough for the country at this time.

45:32 - At any level.

45:34 - We don't have them.

45:36 - I mean, if you if you look at the

45:40 - United States government, how many leaders are

45:43 - there there

45:46 - let me ask you a little bit about

45:49 - politics that you mentioned, the city council

45:53 - and I believe you were deputy mayor for a period.

45:55 - And in Meadville.

45:57 - Did you ever think about running for anything else?

45:59 - Oh, yes.

46:01 - My, my the thing I'd like to have done the best,

46:04 - the most that I never got to do and that I could've done.

46:07 - And I mean, I had a good shot of being elected.

46:09 - A matter of fact, I could have

46:12 - been elected easily.

46:13 - And that was

46:14 - and I never wanted to go to Washington,

46:16 - but I always planned to to state government.

46:18 - I always wanted to be a state senator.

46:20 - That's what I wanted to be.

46:21 - And I you know, I wouldn't have been opposed to being governor.

46:25 - And I you know, I really think I might have had a shot at it

46:28 - if I had gone into politics, because I,

46:32 - I see the way it works.

46:33 - And the reason it couldn't have happened

46:36 - when Bob Dwyer left to true

46:42 - he was a senator from our area,

46:43 - the position was wide open and I could have

46:47 - I could have had that without any trouble.

46:49 - But see, that's where my problem with being rooted in pencil

46:53 - in Meadville

46:54 - and all the things I was doing practicing law and cable.

46:58 - Cable had a big hold on me to

47:03 - I would have had to leave cable television

47:05 - totally to get involved in politics.

47:10 - I mean, glad you didn't do that, looking back on it or was it

47:14 - something you.

47:15 - Well, I mean, you know, it's like everything else.

47:21 - I think that I lost opportunity

47:24 - is always something you regret some way.

47:27 - I mean, a lot of things

47:28 - I would like to have done that I never got to do.

47:32 - I mean, you can only live one life, let's face it.

47:34 - And those people

47:35 - go, I've had more of a shot at it than many people have.

47:38 - I've done two or three very interesting things.

47:43 - You had said you never wanted to go to Washington.

47:45 - What?

47:46 - Why the state government as opposed to Washington?

47:52 - I suppose that it's because I think there is a lot more.

47:59 - See, that's why I liked being on City government.

48:02 - My some of my lawyer friends, just like, you know,

48:05 - when I, when I, when I went for this position,

48:08 - they said, Are you mad?

48:10 - There's nothing but heartache.

48:11 - If you want something, go for something bigger.

48:15 - But you see, you can make a difference if you're on.

48:18 - You can make a difference in the city of Meadville, for sure.

48:22 - And I think you can make a difference in

48:26 - in Pennsylvania.

48:28 - I think making a difference in Washington is the long shot.

48:32 - Maybe you could,

48:35 - but it's not as I mean, I'd rather work where where

48:38 - where the results are clearer at the it's just just too much

48:43 - too much uncertainty there.

48:44 - I think I could have made a difference

48:47 - in Pennsylvania, just as I think we're making a difference

48:52 - in cable in Pennsylvania.

48:55 - Let me ask you about some of the things

48:59 - I believe

49:01 - within the Bar Association.

49:04 - You formed a committee helped people that couldn't afford

49:08 - legal services.

49:12 - Was that an idea you got from somewhere else,

49:15 - how that came about and what? Well,

49:18 - I was very young when I started practicing law, and I told you

49:21 - I was the only female at this bar.

49:24 - And I will tell you, Bill,

49:27 - I must tell you that

49:30 - among businessmen and among the lawyers,

49:35 - I never felt that there was any real

49:40 - antagonism or discrimination against me,

49:43 - any kind of my gender.

49:44 - I never I never felt that way.

49:47 - I always felt pretty much accepted, as I have said

49:51 - and other cases, any new lawyer starts

49:54 - at zero in this area.

49:56 - I mean, you are zero.

49:58 - And You have to prove yourself.

50:01 - And in the proving, they expect you to be awkward.

50:05 - They expect you to be uncertain.

50:07 - They expect you to

50:10 - do some dumb things.

50:11 - And I can do as many dumb things as any man can do. So

50:17 - there was nothing.

50:17 - I was all but

50:22 - the point of your question.

50:24 - I lost it. Now

50:26 - the on track again. Yeah.

50:28 - The legal aid to people that came after when I started.

50:33 - As I said, I was very young and I didn't have

50:35 - a lot of preconceived notions.

50:36 - There was a state committee that was just starting

50:40 - and there was no organization here,

50:42 - but there was a state organization in Harrisburg

50:45 - that was beginning to get involved

50:47 - with taking care of legal needs of the poor.

50:51 - So I suggested Now I understand I'm

50:55 - gonna be handed the totem pole here,

50:59 - and I and I suggested to the bar

51:02 - that we have such a committee

51:05 - and of course, you know, a couple.

51:08 - And suddenly, just like a woman coming in here

51:10 - and starts wanting to do something like this,

51:12 - they all felt they did a lot of this work.

51:15 - And I said, Well, let's

51:16 - organize it so that we know that everybody's taking care of.

51:20 - So I, we formed this committee and it was called the service,

51:24 - the proper committee.

51:24 - There were four areas that we were to be concerned

51:28 - with taking care of services for the poor in civil cases

51:33 - was a primary as far as the criminal think

51:35 - court of care of that.

51:37 - They always saw to it

51:38 - that a criminal defendant had representation.

51:41 - But these are civil cases

51:43 - and there were other areas.

51:46 - Another area we were to work, we were in situations

51:49 - where the case was such that fair representation

51:54 - couldn't be done because the person

51:57 - in the

52:00 - public sentiment was so much against him.

52:03 - And we were then to see that

52:06 - that the person would have had a poor representation.

52:10 - We formed a committee,

52:11 - have worked very, very well for a number of years,

52:15 - and then the federal government came in

52:18 - and began to require our services.

52:21 - And then they began to have has a

52:24 - has a program service for the poor.

52:27 - And when they started that, then this one that we established

52:33 - was defunct.

52:34 - But we were in business at least for a good 20 years.

52:39 - And talk to me about your involvement

52:41 - with the University of Pittsburgh.

52:43 - They might recognize your last name there.

52:45 - Well, you you hit something there.

52:48 - That's very interesting.

52:50 - My father, Milt Sharp, appointed my father

52:55 - as a member of the a trustee of the University of Pittsburgh.

52:59 - And it was work that my father just loved to do.

53:03 - He enjoyed it tremendously.

53:05 - You know, so many things he did.

53:07 - He was giving somehow his work

53:10 - at the university was something that enriched him.

53:14 - And he got a lot out of it personally.

53:18 - Uh, he was very effective there too.

53:20 - And he was a member of the executive committee

53:24 - after he passed on

53:27 - as a courtesy to me, there were many things.

53:28 - Some things came my way because of my father.

53:31 - Some things did not.

53:33 - This one did not occur.

53:35 - My father and

53:39 - they asked me to be on the board.

53:40 - And I was I will tell you, Bill,

53:44 - that I have great respect for the university,

53:46 - but it's not one of the things that I did

53:49 - that I was particularly effective in.

53:51 - The place is tremendous.

53:54 - It's huge.

53:55 - It's complicated.

53:57 - And to to become effective,

54:01 - you have to spend a lot of time just learning

54:06 - how the thing works.

54:08 - And I well, I did the best I could.

54:12 - I did not feel that I was as effective in this

54:15 - area as I've been in others.

54:18 - And what about

54:19 - the Parker Law Library?

54:23 - Well, the Barkow Law Library was something that

54:27 - my father and I did for the law school.

54:31 - Rick graduated from

54:35 - my father, as you know, was a very generous man,

54:38 - very interested in philanthropy,

54:40 - but he always considered any gift.

54:44 - He made an investment.

54:46 - And he you know, he didn't think he just

54:50 - gave money.

54:51 - He always thought you ought to know just exactly what the money

54:54 - was going to be used for.

54:56 - And you ought to have some idea of what the return

54:59 - should be on the money.

55:01 - And the library was something he and I were both interested

55:05 - in. So he

55:09 - and I arranged to make a gift to the university condition

55:13 - that the university would see to it

55:18 - that the basic support was provided.

55:20 - We did not want to give money, and then the university

55:24 - cut down their gift.

55:26 - Everything we gave was for enhancements to make it better.

55:31 - The idea was that the basic facility

55:34 - and service should be provided by the university

55:37 - and we provided the extras.

55:41 - The matter of

55:42 - conditional gifts is something we have done

55:45 - before the meat poultry recreation complex,

55:49 - which we here don't know this, but

55:51 - we have a gift arrangement there that's conditional that has

55:56 - caused some people to be concerned.

55:57 - But it's part of the idea that you give a gift

56:00 - that you want to see is used well,

56:05 - let me ask you a little bit

56:06 - about the barcode, the Rat Foundation.

56:08 - First of all, can you explain what that is?

56:11 - And it's called the Barcode Rat Foundation was founded

56:16 - in 1987 by my father,

56:19 - who was the first president.

56:21 - And it's he was originally funded

56:24 - with mainly his funds,

56:27 - and it was also a vehicle for

56:34 - oh, for having flexibility so that eventually

56:39 - some of his long term goals could be met

56:43 - and some of these could not be done in his lifetime.

56:45 - They were just too involved.

56:47 - He had a half a dozen things he was interested in.

56:51 - Two of them he

56:52 - did in his lifetime, and the others, those of us

56:57 - who are coming after him or know about it

57:00 - and got to see to it

57:03 - by principle, he is not.

57:05 - The principal purpose is to advance continuing education.

57:12 - That's a principal purpose of the foundation.

57:15 - Now, since it was formed,

57:17 - other funds have come from all the family members.

57:19 - So it's

57:21 - one of the principal things we have done to date

57:25 - was to help with PCN in its educational phase

57:30 - and we still helping educationally with PCN.

57:35 - And there are other things that we want to do as

57:38 - soon as the situation develops, educationally speaking.

57:43 - But we're not limited can do these other things as well.

57:47 - There are some things related to the community here

57:51 - that we are working on to

57:54 - ensure that the Cable Television Hall of Fame

57:57 - recently had an induction ceremony.

58:01 - Your father was invited and you spoke.

58:05 - What was that experience like?

58:07 - And just an outstanding experience, Bill.

58:10 - Still outstanding experience.

58:13 - My father and these other people were

58:17 - elected, had the greatest

58:20 - honor given to them.

58:21 - Remember these six men were chosen

58:26 - out of all of the people involved in cable

58:29 - for 50 years over the entire United

58:32 - States, these six men were selected over who?

58:36 - All the people.

58:37 - These six were selected.

58:40 - And as you know, all three of them are

58:41 - from Pennsylvania.

58:42 - And they'll champion my father and Martin Malarkey.

58:47 - Oh, the reasons that my father was selected

58:51 - were because of his advocacy for cable

58:55 - in those early years in the Senate

58:58 - and the force of hate, the help he gave to helping to

59:02 - establish the bundle of rights the cable needs to operate

59:07 - in terms of the rights of way of

59:12 - utility arrangements.

59:14 - And that was later a copyright

59:17 - basis for what we were doing and the legal basis

59:22 - for being able to master antenna concept,

59:25 - which undergirded the legal right to pick up signals

59:31 - for that.

59:31 - His advocacy for that and his attorneys had

59:35 - had this see also for keeping the industry independent

59:40 - and domination by the other industries that were connected.

59:46 - And there again, the copyright owners were people that were

59:52 - could have taken over the industry.

59:54 - The telephone company was another

59:57 - 664 and the broadcasters were the third after we survived,

01:00 - 05.635 after this survival, the effort was to keep us free.

01:00 - 07.937 And that's one of the things he did.

01:00 - 11.307 And of course, the third thing had to do with his interest

01:00 - 12.976 in education

01:00 - 16.145 and the number of things he did to advance education

01:00 - 20.116 within the industry, including her passion

01:00 - 22.185 and including the efforts

01:00 - 26.623 that he made, for instance, for the establishment of station

01:00 - 29.626 queuing up here in northwest Pennsylvania

01:00 - 33.496 and the help that the association

01:00 - 36.466 gave to the establishment of the statewide

01:00 - 40.370 public television network.

01:00 - 41.404 Yolanda Barco,

01:00 - 45.108 practicing attorney at Barco and Barco in Meadville

01:00 - 48.277 and president and chief executive officer

01:00 - 50.380 of Pennsylvania Cable Network. Thanks for joining us.

01:00 - 51.781 Thank you for having me.