00:00 - CLOSED CAPTIONING FUNDED BY PCN

00:19 - >>> LET'S START OFF TALKING

00:21 - ABOUT THE 1978 RUN FOR GOVERNOR.

00:23 - WHAT WAS YOUR JOB AT THE TIME

00:25 - WHEN YOU WERE STARTING TO THINK

00:26 - ABOUT RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR?

00:27 - >> I WAS JUST FINISHING UP MY

00:29 - TOUR OF DUTY IN THE FORD

00:32 - ADMINISTRATION IN WASHINGTON

00:33 - WHERE I HAD BEEN AN ASSISTANT

00:35 - ATTORNEY GENERAL IN CHARGE OF

00:37 - THE CRIMINAL DIVISION OF THE

00:37 - U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

00:39 - I HAD BEEN APPOINTED BY

00:41 - PRESIDENT FORD TO THAT IN JULY

00:43 - OF 1975 AND SERVED UNTIL MARCH

00:47 - OF 1977.

00:50 - AND AT THE TIME, I WAS VERY MUCH

00:55 - INTERESTED IN THE GOVERNOR'S

00:57 - RACE.

00:57 - I HAD BEEN AWAY FROM

01:01 - PENNSYLVANIA FOR ALMOST TW

01:04 - YEARS SO THAT WAS SOMEWHAT OF A

01:07 - HANDICAP.

01:07 - I THOUGHT THERE MIGHT BE AN

01:08 - OPPORTUNITY FOR ME TO FILL THAT

01:11 - ROLE.

01:11 - THE MAJOR CONCERN AT THAT TIME

01:12 - WAS ABOUT CORRUPTION.

01:13 - A LOT OF CASES I HAD PROSECUTED

01:16 - MYSELF WHEN I WAS U.S. ATTORNEY

01:17 - OUT THERE.

01:18 - THE ECONOMY WAS, OF COURSE, IN

01:20 - ONE OF ITS PERIODIC DOWNTURNS,

01:22 - AND THERE WAS A GENERAL SENSE OF

01:28 - KIND OF CONCERN ABOUT WHAT

01:30 - PENNSYLVANIA'S FUTURE HELD.

01:32 - SO I STARTED GIVING SERIOUS

01:36 - CONSIDERATION THAT ALMOST

01:37 - IMMEDIATELY AFTER I LEFT OFFICE

01:37 - IN WASHINGTON.

01:39 - >> THIS WAS THE MIDDLE OF THE

01:41 - CARTER ADMINISTRATION?

01:42 - >> WELL, I WAS --

01:43 - >> 1978?

01:45 - >> ACTUALLY, THROUGH A QUIRK, I

01:47 - WAS JIMMY CARTER -- PRESIDENT

01:48 - JIMMY CARTER'S FIRST ATTORNEY

01:51 - GENERAL BECAUSE I WAS THE SENIOR

01:54 - FORD ADMINISTRATION GUY LEFT ON

01:57 - THE JOB, AND HIS CHOICE FOR

02:00 - ATTORNEY GENERAL, A SPLENDID MAN

02:04 - NAMED GRIFFIN BELL WAS HAVING

02:06 - TROUBLE GETTING CONFIRMED.

02:08 - SO FOR A FEW DAYS, I WAS THE

02:10 - ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED

02:12 - STATES.

02:12 - VERY GLADLY CEDED IT TO GRIFFIN

02:15 - BELL.

02:15 - GRIFFIN BELL KEPT ME ON.

02:16 - WE GOT ALONG WELL.

02:18 - HE KEPT ME ON AS HIS ACTING

02:19 - DEPUTY FOR AN ADDITIONAL TWO

02:21 - MONTHS.

02:21 - SO I SAW THE BEGINNING OF THE

02:23 - CARTER ADMINISTRATION.

02:23 - BUT I WASN'T REALLY A PART OF

02:25 - IT.

02:25 - >> HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN

02:27 - THINKING ABOUT RUNNING FOR

02:28 - GOVERNOR?

02:28 - WAS THAT LIKE YEARS?

02:29 - >> WELL, I THINK AS I REALIZED

02:33 - THAT MY TENURE IN WASHINGTON WAS

02:37 - GOING TO COME TO AN END, EITHER

02:40 - BECAUSE AS HAPPENED, PRESIDENT

02:41 - FORD WAS DEFEATED OR BECAUSE I

02:43 - WANTED TO MOVE ON TO SOMETHING

02:44 - ELSE, I BEGAN TO FOCUS ON THAT.

02:46 - I SUPPOSE I HAD INTERMITTENT

02:48 - THOUGHTS ABOUT IT IN THE YEARS

02:52 - RUNNING UP TO 1978.

02:55 - BUT I KNEW A NUMBER OF OTHER

02:56 - PEOPLE WERE INTERESTED INTEREST

02:58 - BECAUSE THERE WAS AN OPPORTUNITY

02:59 - FOR MY PARTY, THE REPUBLICAN, TO

03:01 - DO WELL IN THE ELECTIONS BECAUSE

03:03 - OF THE CONCERNS ABOUT THE

03:04 - INCUMBENT ADMINISTRATION.

03:05 - GOVERNOR SHEMP WHO WAS A DECENT

03:07 - AND HONORABLE MAN HIMSELF,

03:10 - UNFORTUNATELY, HAD SURROUNDED

03:11 - HIMSELF WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO

03:13 - WERE NOT SUCH, AND THE RESULT

03:14 - WAS A LOT OF CORRUPTION, A LOT

03:18 - OF MISMANAGEMENT AND A GENERAL

03:20 - LOSS OF CONFIDENCE IN

03:21 - GOVERNMENT.

03:21 - >> HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN GONE

03:23 - FROM PENNSYLVANIA?

03:24 - >> I WAS APPOINTED TO MY

03:27 - DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE POSITION

03:30 - IN 1975, AND I HAD RETURNED THEN

03:37 - ALMOST TWO YEARS LATER.

03:38 - >> DID YOU HAVE TO RE-ESTABLISH

03:40 - CONTACT WITH PEOPLE OR DID YOU

03:41 - KEEP IT GOING?

03:41 - >> I BEGAN TO -- ONCE I MADE UP

03:44 - MY MIND I WAS GOING TO RUN, I,

03:47 - OBVIOUSLY, DID THE EXPLORATORY

03:49 - PHASE THING AND I BEGAN TO TOUR

03:51 - AROUND PENNSYLVANIA.

03:52 - I HAD A LOT OF CONTACTS IN

03:54 - PENNSYLVANIA DUE TO MY PREVIOUS

03:55 - SERVICE AS U.S. ATTORNEY IN

03:57 - WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA AND MY WORK

03:59 - THROUGH THE CONSTITUTIONAL

04:02 - CONVENTION AND OTHER LEGAL

04:03 - RELATED THINGS THAT I HAD DONE

04:05 - OVER THE YEARS.

04:08 - AND SO I REALLY KIND OF HIT THE

04:09 - ROAD AND BEGAN TO ACCEPT

04:12 - SPEAKING INVITATIONS AND VISIT

04:14 - WITH NEWSPAPER EDITORIAL BOARDS

04:18 - AND ALL THE NITTY-GRITTY THAT IN

04:20 - THOSE DAYS WENT INTO A POLITICAL

04:22 - CAMPAIGN.

04:23 - WHICH I ENJOYED THOROUGHLY.

04:24 - SO I GOT TO REACQUAINT MYSELF

04:26 - WITH PENNSYLVANIA VERY QUICKLY.

04:28 - >> DO YOU HAVE A GROUP WORK WITH

04:29 - YOU OR WERE YOU DOING SOLO?

04:31 - >> I HAD A VERY MINIMAL GROUP

04:34 - WORKING WITH ME.

04:35 - I HAD A DRIVER AND I HAD A HEAD

04:43 - OF RESEARCH.

04:44 - NO PRESS PERSON AT THAT TIME.

04:46 - BUT BY THE TIME WE GOT INTO THE

04:48 - FALL, WE PRETTY WELL SET UP A

04:50 - CAMPAIGN ORGANIZATION.

04:50 - I ASKED JAY WALDMAN WHO HAD BEEN

04:52 - MY CHIEF ASSISTANT IN WASHINGTON

04:54 - AND IN PITTSBURGH WHEN I WAS

04:55 - U.S. ATTORNEY TO RUN THE

04:59 - CAMPAIGN.

04:59 - AND JIM WHO HAD BEEN WITH ME FOR

05:03 - MANY YEARS TO HANDLE THE

05:04 - ADMINISTRATIVE DETAILS AND WE

05:05 - SCORED A COUPLE OF MAJOR COUPS

05:09 - BY RECRUITING PAUL KRICHLOW,

05:12 - THEIR CHIEF POLITICAL REPORTER,

05:14 - TO SERVE AS A PRESS SECRETARY.

05:16 - AND GRADUALLY GOT RICK STAFFORD

05:19 - TO HANDLE THE RESEARCH AND PUT

05:21 - OUR TEAM TOGETHER PRETTY MUCH BY

05:22 - THE END OF 1977.

05:23 - I DID NOT ANNOUNCE MY CANDIDACY

05:26 - UNTIL EARLY 1978, BUT WE WERE

05:29 - OFF AND RUNNING BY THE TIME '77

05:32 - CAME TO AN END.

05:32 - >> WHO WERE THE KEY PEOPLE YOU

05:34 - HAD TO MEET WITH TO GET THEIR

05:35 - ADVICE AND SUPPORT?

05:36 - >> WELL IT WAS AN INTERESTING

05:38 - SITUATION BECAUSE WE ENDED UP

05:40 - HAVING SEVEN CANDIDATES FOR THE

05:42 - REPUBLICAN NOMINATION.

05:43 - AND, OF COURSE, THEY EACH HAD

05:46 - THEIR OWN AREAS OF STRENGTH.

05:48 - TO JUMP AHEAD A BIT, TO BE QUITE

05:50 - HONEST WITH YOU, THE ONLY REASON

05:52 - I WON THE PRIMARY WAS BECAUSE I

05:54 - WAS THE ONLY CANDIDATE FROM

05:56 - WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA.

05:57 - AND THE OTHER SIX HAD TO DIVIDE

05:58 - UP THE VOTES IN EASTERN

05:59 - PENNSYLVANIA AND, AS A MATTER OF

06:02 - ARITHMETIC.

06:03 - WE WON WITH 33% OF THE VOTE.

06:06 - IT MEANT DURING THE RUN-UP TO

06:07 - THE ELECTION WHICH WAS IN THE

06:09 - SPRING OF '78, I HAD TO TEND TO

06:13 - A LOT OF OLD FRIENDS AND

06:16 - RELATIONSHIPS.

06:16 - MAKE SURE THAT THEY WERE

06:17 - SUPPORTIVE AND ON BOARD.

06:18 - AND THEN BEGIN TO STRIKE OUT IN

06:23 - NEW DIRECTIONS TO MEET NEW

06:24 - PEOPLE.

06:25 - THAT WAS GREAT.

06:25 - I ENJOYED THAT THOROUGHLY.

06:27 - WE HAD A VERY GOOD FALL IN THAT

06:30 - A LOT OF MISFIRES, A LOT OF

06:34 - THINGS THAT MAKE FOR GOOD

06:37 - STORIES.

06:37 - BUT IN THE -- WE CAME IN IN

06:41 - 1978.

06:41 - WE THOUGHT WE HAD A PRETTY

06:43 - WELL-OILED MACHINE.

06:44 - WE HAD EVANS ROSE, MY CHIEF

06:46 - FUND-RAISER WHO WAS THE BEST

06:48 - FUND-RAISER IN WESTERN

06:49 - PENNSYLVANIA.

06:49 - HAD BEEN A CLASSMATE OF MINE IN

06:51 - COLLEGE AND HE TOOK THAT ON WITH

06:52 - A GREAT DEAL OF ZEAL.

06:53 - AND THAT WAS A BIG PLUS BECAUSE

06:55 - I AM NOT A VERY GOOD AND VERY

06:59 - INTERESTED IN FUND-RAISING.

07:00 - WE RAISED A HEALTHY AMOUNT OF

07:01 - MONEY FOR THE PRIMARY AND THEN

07:04 - MADE CHOICES TO OUR MEDIA

07:06 - CONSULTANTS AND ALL THE NUTS AND

07:08 - BOLTS OF THE CAMPAIGN WERE

07:09 - PRETTY WELL IN PLACE BY THE TIME

07:11 - 1978 DAWNED.

07:13 - >> DID YOU HAVE TO DO MUCH

07:15 - ACTUALLY CALLING UP OF PEOPLE

07:16 - AND SAY I NEED MONEY FROM YOU TO

07:19 - RUN FOR GOVERNOR?

07:20 - >> MY DEAL WITH ED ROSE WAS I

07:21 - WANTED HIM TO RAISE MONEY.

07:23 - HE ACTUALLY ENJOYED RAISING

07:24 - MONEY.

07:25 - IF HE ASKED ME TO CALL SOMEONE

07:26 - OR SEE SOMEONE OR WRITE SOMEONE,

07:27 - I WOULD DO IT.

07:29 - BUT THAT PUT A RESPONSIBILITY ON

07:31 - HIM, OF COURSE, TO DO THAT.

07:33 - ONLY IN CASES OF SPECIAL NEED.

07:34 - BUT WE HAD A VERY CLOSE PERSONAL

07:37 - RELATIONSHIP.

07:37 - SO IT WAS NOT DIFFICULT AND WE

07:41 - WORKED OUT PRETTY WELL.

07:42 - >> DID YOU HAVE A DAY JOB WHILE

07:44 - YOU WERE DOING THIS?

07:45 - >> NOMINALLY IWAS STILL

07:47 - PRACTICING LAW AT WHAT WAS THEN

07:50 - KIRKPATRICK, LOCKHART,

07:51 - JOHNSON & HUTCHINSON.

07:52 - BUT TO BE QUITE HONEST ABOUT IT,

07:54 - I WAS SPENDING VERY LITTLE TIME

07:56 - AT THE OFFICE.

07:59 - AND I ALWAYS GRATEFUL TO THE LAW

08:01 - FIRM FOR THROUGHOUT ALL OF MY

08:04 - CAREER BEING SUPPORTIVE IN TIMES

08:06 - WHEN I WAS OFF ON VARIOUS

08:08 - FROLICS OF MY OWN.

08:09 - >> CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW THAT

08:11 - WOULD WORK?

08:12 - WERE YOU ON SALARY OR PAID FOR

08:13 - CASE?

08:13 - >> I WAS ON SALARY.

08:16 - AND I WORKED OUT AN ARRANGEMENT

08:18 - AT THE OUTSET.

08:19 - I WAS -- UP FRONT I SAID, I'M

08:21 - GOING TO BE PROBABLY RUNNING FOR

08:25 - GOVERNOR AND THE FIRST YEAR BACK

08:27 - OUT OF GOVERNMENT SERVICE, AND

08:29 - IF I WIN, THEN I'LL BE TAKING A

08:31 - LEAVE OF ABSENCE OR SOME OTHER

08:34 - ARRANGEMENT.

08:34 - IF I LOSE, I'LL BE IN BACK AND

08:36 - I'LL GIVE YOU SOME GOOD

08:38 - LAWYERING.

08:38 - BUT I'M AFRAID I WON'T BE ABLE

08:39 - TO DO MUCH FOR YOU IN THE

08:41 - INTERIM.

08:42 - AND THEY KNEW ME.

08:43 - THEY HAD BEEN TERRIBLY

08:44 - SUPPORTIVE AT THE TIME THAT I

08:46 - LOST MY FIRST WIFE AND I HAD TO

08:49 - FACE UP TO THAT TRAGEDY AND HAD

08:51 - SUPPORTED ME WHEN I RAN FOR

08:53 - CONGRESS UNSUCCESSFULLY AND WHEN

08:54 - I WAS IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL

08:56 - CONVENTION AND THE LIKE.

08:57 - SO WE HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP.

08:58 - IT WAS AN OPEN RELATIONSHIP.

09:01 - THEY KNEW NOT TO EXPECT TOO MUCH

09:02 - FROM ME.

09:03 - >> ONE OF THE NAMES YOU

09:05 - MENTIONED IS ELSA HILLMAN.

09:07 - CAN YOU SAY -- TELL ME WHO SHE

09:09 - IS AND WHY SHE WAS SO IMPORTANT?

09:11 - >> WELL, ELSIE HILLMAN WAS

09:14 - THE -- REALLY THE -- OF

09:23 - REPUBLICAN POLITICS.

09:24 - SHE HAD BEEN AN EISENHOWER GIRL

09:26 - BACK WHEN HE RAN FOR PRESIDENT.

09:29 - SHE WAS A REMARKABLE WOMAN.

09:30 - A WOMAN OF CONSIDERABLE MEANS

09:32 - WHO DIDN'T HAVE TO DO ALL THIS

09:33 - STUFF, BUT SHE ENJOYED IT AND

09:37 - SHE HAD A TREMENDOUS ABILITY TO

09:39 - RELATE TO PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS

09:40 - OF LIFE.

09:41 - AND A LOT OF ENERGY.

09:44 - AND SHE AND I MET HER, OH,

09:46 - GOLLY, DURING THE TIME THAT I

09:48 - WAS JUST A ROOKIE LAWYER AND

09:50 - LOOKING AROUND FOR SOME

09:51 - OPPORTUNITIES IN POLITICS.

09:52 - AND SHE WAS VERY SUPPORTIVE OF

09:55 - ME.

09:55 - AND WAS VERY HELPFUL IN

09:57 - INTRODUCING ME TO PEOPLE WHO HAD

09:59 - POLITICAL POWER AND WHO HAD THE

10:01 - ABILITY TO HELP FINANCE THE

10:03 - CAMPAIGN.

10:03 - SO SHE WAS A VERY KEY PLAYER AND

10:08 - ANOTHER PERSON TO WHOM I'LL BE

10:09 - TOTALLY ENDEBTED FOR HER LOYALTY

10:11 - AND SUPPORT THROUGHOUT THE

10:12 - YEARS.

10:12 - >> AND THE HEINZ FAMILY?

10:14 - >> JACK HEINZ AND I, SR., THAT

10:17 - IS H.J. II, I GUESS HE WAS THE

10:20 - CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF THE

10:21 - COMPANY AT THE TIME.

10:22 - HAD GOT TO KNOW EACH OTHER

10:24 - DURING THE CAMPAIGN FOR NELSON

10:26 - ROCKEFELLER AND THE PRIMARY IN

10:29 - 1968.

10:29 - I HAD RUN THE WESTERN

10:31 - PENNSYLVANIA OPERATIONS FOR THAT

10:33 - CAMPAIGN.

10:33 - AND JACK HEINZ WAS A GREAT

10:35 - FRIEND OF NELSON'S.

10:38 - AND HE AND I DEVELOPED A GOOD

10:39 - RELATIONSHIP.

10:40 - AND THEN, OF COURSE IN DUE

10:41 - COURSE IGOT KNOW JOHN, HIS SON,

10:45 - VERY WELL.

10:46 - JOHN ENDED UP -- HE CHAIRED MY

10:48 - CAMPAIGN WHEN I RAN FOR CONGRESS

10:50 - UNSUCCESSFULLY.

10:51 - WE WORKED TOGETHER ON A NUMBER

10:52 - OF PROJECTS.

10:53 - HE GOT ELECTED TO CONGRESS.

10:55 - I DIDN'T.

10:56 - BUT WE KEPT UP OUR RELATIONSHIP

10:58 - AND, OF COURSE, HE WAS AN

11:00 - OUTSTANDING PENNSYLVANIAN,

11:01 - PUBLIC SERVANT, DEVOTED TO THE

11:02 - CITY OF PITTSBURGH.

11:04 - TERRIBLE LOSS WHEN WE -- WAY

11:07 - BEFORE HIS TIME, LOST HIM

11:09 - THROUGH AN AIRPLANE CRASH IN

11:13 - 1991.

11:13 - >> YOU FINISHED YOUR WORK IN

11:15 - WASHINGTON AND MOVED BACK TO

11:16 - PITTSBURGH?

11:16 - >> UH-HUH.

11:17 - >> SAME HOUSE?

11:19 - >> NOPE.

11:19 - WE SOLD OUR HOUSE IN PITTSBURGH

11:21 - WHEN WE MOVED TO WASHINGTON

11:24 - BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I WAS A

11:26 - PUBLIC SERVANT.

11:27 - I HADN'T REALLY BEEN

11:29 - ACCUMULATING MUCH IN THE WAY OF

11:30 - A NEST EGG SO, WE KIND OF LIVED

11:33 - HAND TO MOUTH.

11:33 - AND WHEN WE CAME BACK TO

11:38 - PITTSBURGH, WE BOUGHT ANOTHER

11:41 - HOUSE, CONSIDERABLY SMALLER, BUT

11:43 - OUR KIDS WERE SCATTERING BY THAT

11:47 - TIME.

11:47 - AND WE OPERATED OUT OF THAT

11:51 - HOUSE FOR ABOUT A YEAR AND A

11:55 - HALF.

11:55 - ALTHOUGH ACTUALLY, WHEN I FIRST

11:57 - CAME BACK TO PITTSBURGH, I LIVED

11:58 - AT THE UNIVERSITY CLUB.

11:59 - I HAD A CLUTTERED ROOM THERE

12:01 - WHERE I STACKED PAPERS AND BOOKS

12:03 - AND THINGS LIKE THAT BECAUSE MY

12:05 - FAMILY WAS STILL IN WASHINGTON.

12:06 - WE STILL HAD TWO KIDS IN SCHOOL

12:08 - DOWN IN D.C. AND WANTED TO

12:10 - FINISH UP DOWN THERE.

12:11 - >> HOW OLD WERE YOUR KIDS WHEN

12:12 - YOU MOVED BACK TO PITTSBURGH?

12:14 - >> YOU ARE TESTING ME HERE ON MY

12:17 - MATH.

12:17 - JOHN, OUR ELDEST WAS 20.

12:22 - AND DAVID WAS 19.

12:24 - PETER, OUR SON WITH DISABILITY

12:26 - WAS 15 1/2.

12:29 - AND BILL WAS 11.

12:31 - >> SO YOUR OLDER TWO WERE OFF TO

12:32 - COLLEGE?

12:33 - >> YES, JOHN WAS AT BUCKNELL.

12:35 - DAVID WAS AT HAVERFORD.

12:37 - >> HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU

12:39 - ACTUALLY SPEND AT HOME?

12:43 - .

12:45 - >> NOT A GREAT DEAL.

12:45 - I KIND OF BECAME A PHANTOM,

12:47 - ALTHOUGH THE WHOLE FAMILY

12:48 - PITCHED IN AND HELPED IN THE

12:50 - CAMPAIGN.

12:50 - JOHN, TOOK A LEAVE OF ABSENCE IN

12:52 - 1978 DURING THE GENERAL ELECTION

12:54 - CAMPAIGN AND WAS MY CHIEF AIDE

12:59 - OF IMMEASURABLE HELP.

13:00 - HADE NO DOUBTS ABOUT HIS LOYALTY

13:02 - AND HIS DETERMINATION TO DO THE

13:03 - JOB.

13:04 - AND HE HAD EXHIBITED A REAL

13:06 - SKILL IN STRATEGIC THINKING AND

13:08 - PLANNING.

13:08 - HE PUT TOGETHER ALL MY DAILY

13:10 - BRIEFING BOOKS AND WOULD BE MY

13:12 - BODY MAN WHEN WE WENT OUT.

13:14 - HE'D BE RIGHT ALONGSIDE ME.

13:15 - DAVID WAS WORKING ON A BARGE ON

13:19 - THE OHIO RIVER THAT FALL, BUT HE

13:25 - WAS EQUALLY INTERESTED IN THE

13:27 - CAMPAIGN AND CAME BACK TO, ON

13:31 - ELECTION DAY TO HELP OUT.

13:32 - >> HOW OFTEN DID YOUR WIFE

13:33 - CAMPAIGN WITH YOU?

13:34 - >> FREQUENTLY.

13:35 - SHE WAS A TERRIFIC CAMPAIGNER.

13:37 - >> SHE LIKED IT?

13:38 - >> OH, SHE LOVED CAMPAIGNING AND

13:40 - WAS GOOD AT IT.

13:41 - SHE WAS BETTER THAN I.

13:42 - SHE HAD A WAY OF ESTABLISHING

13:45 - RAPPORT WITH PEOPLE THAT I

13:48 - ENVIED.

13:48 - OF COURSE, SHE REMAINS THAT TO

13:50 - THIS DAY, BUT SHE WAS A VERY

13:52 - VALUABLE PART OF THE TEAM.

13:53 - >> I REMEMBER ONE TIME WHEN WE

13:55 - WERE SITTING AROUND BEFORE I

13:56 - DECIDED TO RUN HERE IN

13:59 - WASHINGTON.

14:00 - WE WERE OUT ON THE BACK PORCH OF

14:02 - OUR HOME HERE IN D.C., AND SHE

14:05 - STARTED OFFERING A FEW

14:08 - OBSERVATIONS, AND THEY WEREN'T

14:11 - ALL ACCEPTED.

14:12 - AND SHE OBVIOUSLY LOOKED A

14:13 - LITTLE HURT.

14:14 - AND I SAID TO HER AFTER, I SAID,

14:18 - YOU KNOW, YOU CAN BE PART OF

14:20 - THIS CAMPAIGN, BUT IF YOU ARE

14:21 - GOING TO BE PART OF THE CAMPAIGN

14:22 - YOU HAVE TO BE JUST LIKE

14:23 - EVERYBODY ELSE AND TAKE SOME

14:24 - HEALTHY CRITICISM IF THERE'S

14:26 - SOME DISAGREEMENT.

14:27 - SHE SAID THAT LAID OUT THE ROAD

14:29 - MAP FOR HER AND MADE IT CLEAR

14:30 - WHAT HER ROLE WAS.

14:31 - SHE WASN'T TO BE OFFERED ANY

14:33 - DEFERENCE SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE WAS

14:35 - THE WIFE OF THE CANDIDATE.

14:37 - >> HOW MUCH DEFERENCE WERE YOU

14:38 - OFFERED BECAUSE YOU WERE THE

14:40 - CANDIDATE?

14:40 - DID YOU GET CRITICISM FROM YOUR

14:42 - OWN STAFF --

14:43 - >> OH, YES.

14:44 - >> -- SAYING DON'T DO THIS, YOU

14:46 - CAN'T DO THAT?

14:47 - >> THEY WERE VERY CANDID.

14:49 - I KNEW THESE GUYS.

14:50 - WE'D BEEN THROUGH A LOT BEFORE.

14:52 - JIM AND JAY IN PARTICULAR

14:54 - BECAUSE WE STARTED OUT TOGETHER

14:55 - IN THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.

14:57 - THEY'D GONE TO WASHINGTON WITH

14:58 - ME WHERE MY CHIEF AIDES DOWN

15:00 - THERE AND ORGANIZING THE

15:02 - CRIMINAL DIVISION AND PUTTING IT

15:03 - BACK ON ITS FEET AFTER THE

15:05 - WATERGATE AFFAIR.

15:06 - SO WE'D BEEN THROUGH A LOT

15:07 - TOGETHER.

15:07 - I VALUE THEIR JUDGMENT AND

15:10 - ENCOURAGED THEM TO SPEAK THEIR

15:11 - MINDS TO ME.

15:15 - PAUL CRICHLOW WAS ADDED ON

15:18 - LATER.

15:18 - I HAD SUCH RESPECT FOR HIM THAT

15:20 - HIS JUDGMENT WAS OF GREAT VALUE

15:22 - AND HE KNEW THAT.

15:23 - BUT ALL THESE GUYS, THEY WERE A

15:25 - TEAM.

15:26 - AND MERCIFULLY WERE SPARED ANY

15:28 - OF THAT KIND OF BACK BITING THAT

15:30 - GOES ON.

15:31 - >> WHAT KINDS OF THINGS DID YOU

15:33 - HAVE TO GET BETTER AT?

15:34 - >> I HAD TO GET BETTER AT ALMOST

15:39 - EVERYTHING.

15:40 - I HAD TO LEARN TO SPEAK IN A

15:43 - DIFFERENT WAY THAN I HAD AS A

15:47 - LAWYER TO SPEAK PLAIN TO THOSE

15:50 - PEOPLE AND PUT THEIR CONCERNS IN

15:52 - EVERYDAY LANGUAGE SO NOT ONLY

15:53 - THEY UNDERSTOOD IT BETTER BUT I

15:54 - UNDERSTOOD IT BETTER.

15:55 - AND THAT WAS THE MAJOR THING.

15:58 - COMMUNICATIONS WAS THE GREAT

15:59 - THING.

15:59 - I HAD IN THOSE DAYS A LOT OF

16:01 - ENERGY AND A LOT OF STAMINA.

16:03 - WE'D GO FROM DAWN TO WELL AFTER

16:05 - DUSK.

16:05 - SO WE SAID EVERY DAY WAS

16:08 - CROWDED.

16:08 - IF IT WASN'T, WE WEREN'T DOING

16:09 - OUR JOB.

16:10 - >> DID YOU HAVE A STANDARD

16:11 - SPEECH YOU ESSENTIALLY GAVE IN

16:15 - EVERY STOP?

16:17 - >> I GUESS I DREW A LITTLE BIT

16:19 - ON MY DRAMA TRAINING WHEN I WAS

16:21 - IN COLLEGE.

16:22 - I WAS PART OF THE DRAMA GROUP.

16:24 - I SOMEHOW WAS ABLE TO CONVEY A

16:27 - FRESH APPROACH EVERY TIME.

16:28 - IT'S A CHALLENGE, THOUGH.

16:30 - THE SAME MESSAGE DAY AFTER DAY

16:31 - AFTER DAY.

16:32 - ALTERED BY WHAT THE DAY'S IRK

16:36 - EVENTS WERE.

16:37 - >> HOW WOULD YOUR TEAM DECIDE

16:39 - WHAT THE STRATEGY WAS.

16:40 - WHERE TO GO?

16:42 - WHO TO TALK TO?

16:44 - HOW DID YOU DECIDE WHAT THE

16:45 - POLITICS OF IT WAS?

16:46 - >> THE BASIC STRATEGY WAS SET

16:47 - FORTH IN A LENGTHY PAPER THAT

16:50 - JAY WELDMAN PREPARED FOR LIMITED

16:54 - CIRCULATION, SETTING FORTH WHAT

16:55 - OUR GOALS WERE, WHAT OUR PLUSES

16:56 - AND MINUSES WERE, WHERE WE HAD

16:59 - PROBLEMS.

17:00 - AND WE ALL STUDIED THAT LIKE

17:02 - HOLY SCRIPTURE.

17:03 - AND THEN ON A WORKING LEVEL, JIM

17:07 - WOULD BE IN CHARGE OF

17:09 - SCHEDULING.

17:09 - HE'D MAKE SURE THAT I WAS GOING

17:10 - TO BE IN A PARTICULAR SPOT.

17:12 - THIS IS AFTER THE GENERAL

17:13 - ELECTION CAMPAIGN BECAUSE THE

17:15 - PRIMARY IS PRETTY MUCH CATCH AS

17:17 - CATCH CAN.

17:17 - WE HAD TO TAKE OPPORTUNITIES AS

17:19 - THEY PRESENTED THEMSELVES.

17:20 - IN THE GENERAL ELECTION IT WAS A

17:22 - WELL-OILED HIGHLY EFFECTIVE

17:25 - OPERATION THAT WAS RUN VERY

17:29 - EFFICIENTLY.

17:29 - >> WITH A POLICY DECISION UP TO

17:32 - YOU OR THERE WERE SOMETIMES

17:33 - GROUP DECISIONS?

17:34 - >> THE POLICY DECISIONS WERE,

17:37 - OBVIOUSLY, FINALLY UP TO ME, BUT

17:38 - I WAS ALWAYS INFORMED BY A VERY

17:42 - EFFECTIVE METHOD THAT WE HAD

17:44 - UTILIZED.

17:45 - RICK STAFFORD WAS OUR CHIEF

17:48 - POLICY MAN.

17:51 - RICK HAD AN ABSOLUTE

17:55 - INEXHAUSTIBLE QUANTITY OF ENERGY

17:56 - AND WISDOM THAT HE WOULD SHARE

17:58 - WITH US.

18:03 - HE'D COME IN WITH HIS BRIEFING

18:05 - BOOKS AND I HAD MY QUESTIONS AND

18:07 - WE'D SPEND SUNDAY NIGHT JUST

18:08 - KIND OF MAPPING OUT WHERE WE

18:10 - STOOD ON THE VARIOUS ISSUES AND

18:11 - WHERE OUR OPPORTUNITIES WERE AND

18:13 - WHERE OUR RISKS WERE.

18:15 - AND IT WORKED PRETTY WELL.

18:16 - HE WAS, OF COURSE, WENT ON TO BE

18:19 - MY CHIEF POLICY GUY IN

18:21 - HARRISBURG AND WAS A

18:23 - DISTINGUISHED LEADER IN HIS OWN

18:25 - RIGHT LATER ON.

18:25 - >> DID YOU FIND YOURSELF HAVING

18:27 - TO GO BACK AND SEE THINGS YOU

18:29 - HAD SAID IN THE PAST OR

18:30 - POSITIONS YOU HAD TAKEN IN THE

18:31 - PAST AND EITHER ALTER THEM OR

18:33 - DEFEND THEM?

18:33 - >> CONSTANTLY.

18:35 - I THINK YOU REALLY RECOGNIZE

18:40 - THAT IN FORMULATING A PLATFORM

18:42 - IF YOU WILL, FOR A POLITICAL

18:46 - CAMPAIGN, YOU EMPHASIZE SOME

18:48 - THINGS MORE THAN OTHERS THAT

18:50 - YOU'VE DONE IN THE PAST.

18:53 - I HAD A PARTICULAR CHALLENGE

18:56 - WHEN I WAS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

19:00 - I HAD BEEN VERY OUTSPOKEN ON THE

19:02 - ISSUE OF GUN CONTROL.

19:05 - AND I HAD SOME CRITICISM FROM

19:09 - SPORTSMANS GROUPS AND FROM,

19:10 - OBVIOUSLY, OTHER CANDIDATES WHO

19:11 - WERE TRYING TO MAKE HAY OUT OF

19:14 - THAT BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A TOUCHY

19:15 - ISSUE IN PENNSYLVANIA.

19:16 - SO WE HAD TO KIND OF SHAPE THAT

19:18 - MESSAGE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY

19:19 - THAN IT HAD BEEN FOR ME AS A LAW

19:22 - ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL.

19:22 - >> YOU SAY IN YOUR BOOK THAT WAS

19:24 - NOT YOUR FINEST HOUR.

19:25 - >> I WASN'T PARTICULARLY PROUD

19:26 - OF THAT, BUT IT WAS A FELT

19:31 - NECESSITY, AND I RECOGNIZE THAT

19:33 - WE WEREN'T GOING TO GET ANYWHERE

19:38 - MAKING GUN CONTROL THE FOCAL

19:40 - POINT OF OUR CAMPAIGN.

19:43 - IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, I THINK

19:45 - WE WERE QUITE HONEST AND UP

19:48 - FRONT WITH THE SPORTSMANS GROUPS

19:50 - AND OTHER FOLKS.

19:51 - AND THEY ENDED UP SUPPORTING US.

19:54 - SO IT WAS MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

19:55 - ON THE POLITICAL SIDE.

19:57 - BUT I ALWAYS FELT A LITTLE

19:59 - SHEEPISH HAVING TO BACK OFF

20:00 - POSITIONS THAT I'D -- WELL

20:01 - THOUGHT OUT POSITIONS I'D TAKEN

20:03 - EARLIER.

20:04 - >> WHAT WAS THE -- WAS ABORTION

20:06 - AN ISSUE DURING THE PRIMARY

20:08 - CAMPAIGN?

20:08 - >> NO.

20:09 - THE ABORTION ISSUE WAS NOT

20:13 - REALLY ON THE AGENDA.

20:16 - THERE WAS NO REAL FOCUS ON IT.

20:22 - AND IT'S ODD BECAUSE WHEN I

20:25 - WOULD RUN FOR CONGRESS IN 1966,

20:29 - THERE WERE NONE OF THE

20:31 - HOT-BUTTON ISSUES DISCUSSED.

20:32 - I RAN AGAINST AN INCUMBENT

20:34 - CONGRESSMAN.

20:35 - WE TALKED ABOUT FOREIGN AFFAIRS

20:36 - AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT.

20:37 - NO ABORTION.

20:38 - NO GUN CONTROL.

20:39 - NO GAY RIGHTS.

20:40 - NONE OF THAT STUFF WAS THERE.

20:42 - AND, FRANKLY, IT WAS A LITTLE

20:45 - MORE COMFORTABLE ENVIRONMENT FOR

20:47 - ME AS A CANDIDATE.

20:50 - BUT THE ABORTION ISSUE WAS NEVER

20:52 - RAISED DURING THE 1978 CAMPAIGN,

20:54 - TO MY RECOLLECTION.

20:56 - >> WHAT DID --

20:56 - >> I HAD A POSITION ON ABORTION,

21:00 - WHICH WE STATED, AND STUCK TO,

21:03 - BUT IT WAS NOT ONE THAT BECAME

21:06 - CONTENTIOUS.

21:07 - >> ONE OF YOUR OPPONENTS WAS

21:10 - ARLEN SPECTER?

21:11 - >> YES.

21:12 - >> IN THE PRIMARY CAMPAIGN

21:13 - AGAINST OPPONENTS OR AGAINST

21:16 - MILTON CHAP?

21:17 - >> MOSTLY WE CAMPAIGNED AGAINST

21:19 - MILTON CHAP AND THE DEMOCRATIC

21:20 - ADMINISTRATION.

21:21 - THEY WERE THE TARGET OF

21:22 - CONVENIENCE.

21:22 - I MEAN, THERE REALLY WERE SO

21:24 - MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO CONTRAST

21:26 - MY INSTINCTS AND MY CAREER WITH

21:28 - WHAT HAD GONE ON IN THE CHAP

21:31 - ADMINISTRATION THAT WE WOULD

21:32 - HAVE BEEN FOOLISH TO PASS THAT

21:33 - UP.

21:33 - AT THE SAME TIME, WHEREVER WE

21:35 - COULD TAKE A NICK OUT OF ONE OF

21:38 - OUR PRIMARY OPPONENTS WE'D DO

21:42 - THAT.

21:43 - FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE GUN CONTROL

21:44 - ISSUE, WHEN IT WAS POINTED OUT I

21:45 - HAD TAKEN THIS POSITION, I WAS

21:48 - CRITICIZED BY SPECTER AND BOB

21:50 - AND OTHERS, BUT I PARTICULARLY

21:52 - RESPONDED TO SPECTER THAT THIS

21:53 - WAS EXACTLY THE POSITION HE HAD

21:55 - TAKEN WHEN HE WAS IN LAW

21:56 - ENFORCEMENT, SO KIND OF

21:57 - NEUTRALIZED THAT ISSUE.

21:58 - IT DIDN'T BECOME A BIG ISSUE,

22:01 - BUT OCCASIONALLY, WE WOULD --

22:06 - TWO OF MY OPPONENTS IN THE

22:08 - PRIMARY WERE LEADERS IN THE

22:11 - HOUSE AND SENATE.

22:12 - HENRY HAGER AND BOBBY TERA AND I

22:15 - WOULD OBVIOUSLY TRY TO PAINT

22:17 - THEM AS BEING PART OF THE SAME

22:19 - OLD CROWD IN HARRISBURG AND WE

22:21 - WERE GOING TO BRING A NEW -- BUT

22:22 - IT WAS A PRETTY CIVIL CAMPAIGN.

22:24 - WE ALL KNEW EACH OTHER AND GOT

22:26 - ALONG WELL AND OFTEN TRAVELED

22:30 - TOGETHER.

22:30 - >> WE HAD DEBATES.

22:32 - >> A LOT OF DEBATES.

22:34 - >> THERE WERE TIMES YOU HAD

22:36 - HUMBLING EXPERIENCES WHEN YOU

22:37 - SCHEDULED A CAMPAIGN AND SHOWED

22:39 - UP AND THERE WAS JUST A HANDFUL

22:40 - OF PEOPLE THERE.

22:41 - >> I REMEMBER ONE IN PARTICULAR.

22:45 - I WAS IMPORTUNED BY THE LOCAL

22:49 - REPUBLICANS IN CLARION COUNTY.

22:50 - A MORE OR LESS RURAL COUNTY IN

22:54 - WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA.

22:56 - TO ATTEND AN EVENT THEY CLAIMED

22:58 - WAS A BLACKBUSTER.

23:00 - THIS WAS GOING TO PUT ME OVER

23:02 - THE TOP.

23:02 - I COULDN'T MISS IT.

23:03 - IT WAS VERY INCONVENIENT TO

23:06 - DRIVE UP TO CLARION FROM

23:07 - PITTSBURGH AND I HAD MY DRIVER

23:10 - THERE.

23:10 - KIND OF ROLLING OUR EYES AND IT

23:12 - WAS POURING RAIN THAT DAY.

23:13 - I NEVER SAW SO MUCH RAIN.

23:18 - TO THE CLARION LEAF FESTIVAL

23:20 - WHICH WAS HELD IN CLARION AND A

23:22 - LOT OF PARADES AND SPEAKERS AND

23:25 - THINGS LIKE THAT, AND THEY HAD

23:28 - SAID WE ESTIMATE THERE WILL BE

23:29 - 100,000 PEOPLE THERE AND BLAH,

23:31 - BLAH, BLAH.

23:33 - WELL, THERE WERE ABOUT 500

23:34 - PEOPLE HUDDLED UNDER UMBRELLAS.

23:38 - I WAS INTRODUCED BY A FAULTY

23:43 - MICROPHONE AS I WATCHED THIS

23:45 - DISMAL PARADE.

23:45 - AND I THOUGHT NEVER AGAIN.

23:49 - AND I WAS SOMEWHAT HEARTENED IN

23:52 - THE GENERAL ELECTION TO LEARN

23:55 - THAT DURING THE FALL OF '78, I'D

23:58 - GONE UP IN THE FALL OF '77.

23:59 - IN THE FALL OF '78 I READ ON THE

24:02 - SCHEDULE FOR PETE FLAHERTY WAS

24:04 - IN THE PAPER THAT HE WAS GOING

24:06 - TO ATTEND THE CLARION LEAF

24:08 - FESTIVAL.

24:09 - I THOUGHT, MAY THE LORD BE WITH

24:13 - YOU.

24:13 - >> DID YOU CAMPAIGN AT ALL IN

24:15 - PHILADELPHIA OR DID YOU FIGURE

24:16 - THAT WAS A LOST CAUSE?

24:17 - >> DURING THE PRIMARY WE DID

24:19 - VERY LITTLE CAMPAIGNING IN

24:20 - PHILADELPHIA BECAUSE ARLEN WAS

24:21 - WELL KNOWN THERE.

24:22 - HAD BEEN A DISTRICT ATTORNEY,

24:24 - CANDIDATE FOR MAYOR.

24:27 - AND IN THE SUBURBS, BOB WAS THE

24:31 - MAJORITY -- MINORITY LEADER IN

24:33 - THE HOUSE AND HAD A CONSTITUENCY

24:35 - THERE.

24:36 - SO WE KNEW OUR STRENGTH WAS IN

24:38 - WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA.

24:39 - AND THEN WE HAD TO PUT ALL OUR

24:41 - BETS DOWN AND BUILD THAT UP.

24:42 - AND AS IT TURNED OUT, IT WAS THE

24:44 - WISEST THING TO DO.

24:46 - WE WASTED TIME IN PHILADELPHIA.

24:48 - I GOT 5% OF THE VOTE IN THE CITY

24:50 - OF PHILADELPHIA IN THE PRIMARY

24:54 - ELECTION.

24:54 - BUT LO AND BEHOLD WHAT HAPPENED

24:56 - WAS I -- IN WINNING THE

24:58 - PENNSYLVANIA -- IN WINNING THE

25:00 - SPRING PRIMARY FOR THE

25:02 - REPUBLICAN NOMINATION, I WOKE UP

25:03 - THE NEXT DAY AND FOUND THAT THE

25:05 - WINNER ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE

25:07 - WAS NONE OTHER THAN MY OLD

25:09 - FRIEND PETE FLAHERTY, THE VERY

25:11 - POPULAR MAYOR OF PITTSBURGH WHO

25:13 - HAD A VERY STRONG BASE IN

25:15 - WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA.

25:16 - AND WE WERE JUST PFLUM OXED IN

25:19 - BUFFALO BECAUSE BOB CASEY HAD

25:20 - BEEN A CANDIDATE IN THAT.

25:22 - AND ERNIE KLEIN, THE LIEUTENANT

25:23 - GOVERNOR, THEY HAD A SPIRITED

25:26 - PRIMARY.

25:26 - BUT PETE WAS A VERY EFFECTIVE

25:29 - POLITICIAN AND WON THE CAMPAIGN

25:30 - GOING AWAY.

25:31 - SO WE HAD OUR WORK CUT OUT FOR

25:33 - US.

25:33 - OR WE MADE A STRATEGIC DECISION

25:36 - ALMOST IMMEDIATELY THAT OUR

25:38 - CAMPAIGN, WHICH WE HAD

25:39 - CONCENTRATED SOLELY IN THE WEST,

25:40 - WAS NOW GOING TO BE DEVOTED TO

25:42 - THE EASTERN PART OF THE STATE.

25:45 - I, DICK THORNBURGH, FROM

25:47 - PITTSBURGH, WAS TO BECOME THE

25:48 - EASTERN PENNSYLVANIAN CANDIDATE.

25:50 - AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

25:52 - IT WORKED.

25:53 - WE ENDED UP CARRYING EVERY

25:58 - COUNTY EAST OF THE SUSQUEHANNA

26:00 - RIVER, SAVE FOR PHILADELPHIA AND

26:02 - PERHAPS ANOTHER SMALL COUNTY.

26:04 - AND IT BAFFLED ALL OF THE

26:10 - POLITICAL PUNDITS.

26:13 - WUIT WAS JAY'S PLANNING OF A

26:16 - STRATEGY THAT ENABLED US TO WIN

26:18 - THE GENERAL ELECTION.

26:24 - >> YOU DID TELEVISION ADS?

26:26 - >> OH, YEAH.

26:27 - AN INTERESTING GO AROUND THERE.

26:29 - I HAD KNOWN DOUG DEERDORPH WHO

26:34 - HAD ONE OF THE PREMIER

26:36 - TELEVISION OPERATIONS.

26:36 - I WORKED WITH THEM ON OTHER

26:38 - CAMPAIGNS.

26:39 - AND WE TRIED TO GET THEM BUT

26:40 - THEY'D SIGNED UP LONG AGO WITH

26:43 - BOB BUTERA.

26:44 - SO WE WENT TO DAVID GARTH WHO

26:46 - WAS -- NORMALLY DID CAMPAIGNS

26:47 - FOR DEMOCRATS BUT ALSO DID WORK

26:50 - FOR JOHN HEINZ.

26:51 - WITH JOHN'S HELP, DAVID GARTH

26:53 - FROM NEW YORK DID OUR PRIMARY TV

26:56 - STUFF.

26:56 - IT WAS PRETTY GOOD.

26:58 - BUT WE HAD TO PAY A LOT OF MONEY

27:00 - FOR IT.

27:01 - WE HAD TO RAISE A LOT MORE MONEY

27:03 - THAN WE ORIGINALLY INTENDED

27:04 - BECAUSE HE WAS TOP DOLLAR.

27:07 - AND HE WAS SOMEWHAT IMPERIAL.

27:08 - HE WANTED TO RUN THE WHOLE

27:10 - CAMPAIGN.

27:10 - WHEN HE AND JAY WALDMAN

27:13 - COLLIDED, SPARKS FLEW.

27:14 - AND SO RIGHT AFTER THE PRIMARY

27:16 - WE DITCHED GARTH AND BY THAT

27:19 - TIME, BAILEY DEERDORPH WAS

27:21 - AVAILABLE.

27:22 - AND THEY DID A SUPERB JOB IN THE

27:24 - GENERAL ELECTION.

27:25 - THEIR CAMPAIGN ADS WERE JUST

27:27 - CLASSICS.

27:27 - THEY WERE REAL KEEPERS.

27:29 - AND WERE IN NO SMALL WAY

27:31 - RESPONSIBLE FOR WINNING THAT

27:32 - ELECTION.

27:33 - >> YOU WERE IN THE ADS?

27:34 - >> SOME OF THEM I WAS IN.

27:36 - FAMILY WAS IN.

27:38 - >> IT WAS LIKE ACTING?

27:39 - >> YEAH IT WAS LIKE ACTING.

27:41 - >> NEW FOR YOU?

27:42 - >> NO, AS I SAID, I HAD DONE MY

27:46 - STINT, DRAMA, AND, OF COURSE,

27:48 - I'D BEEN A TRIAL LAWYER.

27:50 - NO BETTER ACTORS THAN TRIAL

27:52 - LAWYERS.

27:52 - THAT'S WHERE -- THAT'S THE ARENA

27:54 - WHERE YOU REALLY LEARN HOW TO

27:57 - MAKE A CASE TO PEOPLE.

27:59 - >> IN LEGAL TERMS AS I SAID,

28:01 - QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT WHEN

28:03 - TALKING ABOUT THE POLITICAL

28:04 - STUMP BECAUSE YOU GET AWAY FROM

28:06 - THE BIG WORDS AND YOU GET AWAY

28:07 - FROM THE LEGAL PRINCIPLES AND

28:09 - BEGIN TO TALK TO PEOPLE IN DOWN

28:11 - TO EARTH TERMS.

28:12 - THESE WERE REALLY GOOD ADS.

28:13 - THEY'RE IN THE ARCHIVES IF YOU

28:15 - EVER HAVE A CHANCE TO LOOK AT

28:17 - THEM.

28:19 - >> WERE THERE PARTS ABOUT

28:20 - CAMPAIGNING YOU FOUND

28:21 - DISTASTEFUL OR HAD TO SUMMON

28:22 - YOUR COURAGE TO GO AHEAD AND DO?

28:24 - YOU JUST DIDN'T LIKE DOING?

28:26 - >> HARD FOR ME TO IDENTIFY.

28:28 - I LOVED CAMPAIGNING.

28:29 - AND I HAD A REAL APPETITE FOR

28:32 - IT.

28:32 - OF COURSE, I HAD THE ADVANTAGE

28:34 - OF HAVING A -- AS I SAID, A

28:37 - WELL-OILED MACHINE.

28:38 - AND THESE FOLKS WERE LOYAL.

28:41 - THEY WERE EFFECTIVE.

28:42 - THEY KNEW WHAT TO DO AND THEY

28:44 - MOVED ME AROUND THE STATE.

28:48 - WE HAD A PLAIN LEASE THAT -- A

28:51 - LITTLE TWO ENGINE PLANE THAT

28:53 - WOULD TAKE ME AROUND.

28:55 - PENNSYLVANIA IS A GREAT STATE.

28:56 - SEVEN MEDIA MARKETS AND

29:00 - INNUMERABLE POLITICAL LEADERS

29:01 - THAT HAVE TO BE TO WHOM

29:03 - ATTENTION MUST BE PAID.

29:05 - AND PICNICS AND BAR MITZVAHS AND

29:11 - WEDDINGS AND, YOU KNOW, IT WENT

29:16 - ON AND ON AND ON.

29:17 - IF I HAD A DOWN TIME DURING THE

29:18 - DAY, IT WAS A FAILURE ON MY

29:24 - STAFF.

29:25 - I DIDN'T WANT TO MISLEAD YOU.

29:26 - THIS WAS NOT A CAKE WALK.

29:28 - WE TOOK OUR FIRST POLL IN AUGUST

29:29 - OF 1978.

29:31 - THIS IS AFTER THE PRIMARY AND

29:33 - AFTER THE FIRST ROUND OF POST

29:35 - PRIMARY CAMPAIGNING.

29:36 - AND IT SHOWED ME LOSING TO PETE

29:38 - FLAHERTY BY 32 POINTS.

29:42 - I HAD -- HE HAD 55% OF THE VOTE.

29:45 - I HAD 23% OF THE VOTE.

29:50 - I REMEMBER THERE WAS SOME DEBATE

29:51 - ON THE PART OF MY STAFF AS TO

29:53 - WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO SHARE

29:54 - THAT WITH ME.

29:55 - AND IT WAS BOB TETER WHO WAS

29:58 - LATER PRESIDENT REAGAN'S

30:01 - POLLSTER.

30:02 - AND SO THERE WASN'T MUCH DOUBT

30:03 - ABOUT THE ACCURACY OF THE POLL.

30:04 - BUT I REMEMBER GOING HOME AND

30:07 - TELLING JENNY, I SAID, WE GOT

30:11 - OUR POLL RESULTS BACK.

30:14 - THEY'RE NOT SO HOT.

30:16 - THEY SHOWED US DOWN 32 POINTS.

30:17 - 55 TO 23.

30:20 - SHE SAID THAT DOESN'T SOUND VERY

30:21 - GOOD.

30:22 - SHE SAID IS THERE SOME AREA

30:23 - WHERE WE DID WELL?

30:24 - I SAID, WELL, WITH WOMEN OVER

30:26 - 65, WE HAD A PRETTY GOOD -- I

30:28 - ATE IS UP.

30:29 - I HAD TO TELL HER SOMETHING.

30:34 - BUT THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT

30:35 - POLLS, AND I THINK PEOPLE OFTEN

30:37 - OVERLOOK THIS.

30:38 - THE BEAUTY CONTEST PART IS BY NO

30:43 - MEANS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART.

30:45 - BUT YOU FIND OUT.

30:46 - WHAT YOU LEARN FROM THIS

30:48 - DETAILED POLL WAS WHERE THERE

30:49 - WERE OPPORTUNITIES FOR US.

30:52 - AND THAT DICTATED HOW WE RAN THE

30:55 - CAMPAIGN BETWEEN AUGUST AND

30:58 - NOVEMBER WHEN THE ELECTION WAS

30:59 - HELD.

30:59 - AND WE WERE ABLE TO TAKE THAT

31:02 - 32-POINT ADVANTAGE AND WIN GOING

31:03 - AWAY.

31:03 - WE WON BY OVER 200,000 VOTES

31:05 - WHEN THE POLLS WERE CLOSED ON

31:09 - ELECTION DAY IN 1978.

31:10 - >> DID YOU HAVE MUCH NAME

31:12 - RECOGNITION IN THE STATE BEFORE

31:13 - YOU STARTED?

31:13 - >> NOT MUCH.

31:14 - WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA KNEW ME

31:15 - BECAUSE I HAD BEEN A PROSECUTOR

31:18 - OUT THERE.

31:18 - A LOT OF HIGH-PROFILE CASES.

31:21 - BUT I HAD BEEN AWAY FOR ALMOST

31:26 - TWO YEARS.

31:26 - IN THE OTHER PART OF THE STATE

31:28 - THERE HAD BEEN A COUPLE OF

31:30 - FEATURE STORIES AND WE HAVE A

31:31 - REAL PROBLEM OF BUILDING UP NAME

31:33 - RECOGNITION.

31:33 - PETE FLAHERTY HAD A LOT OF NAME

31:35 - RECOGNITION.

31:35 - THAT ACCOUNTED FOR PART OF THE

31:37 - LEAD.

31:37 - BUT HE WAS JUST A VERY GOOD

31:40 - POLITICIAN.

31:41 - BUT TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS HE

31:42 - RAN A VERY POOR CAMPAIGN AND WE

31:44 - RAN A VERY GOOD CAMPAIGN.

31:45 - IT'S A CLASSIC EXAMPLE HOW THAT

31:46 - CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

31:47 - >> HOW DID NEWS MEDIA TREAT YOU?

31:50 - >> FAIRLY.

31:51 - WE HAD A GROUP OF REPORTERS WHO

31:53 - FOLLOWED US ON THE CAMPAIGN

31:56 - TRAIL AND THEY WERE

32:00 - PROFESSIONAL.

32:00 - THEY REPORTED WHEN WE STUMBLED,

32:02 - AND THEY REPORTED WHEN WE

32:04 - SCORED.

32:04 - AND THAT'S ABOUT ALL YOU CAN

32:06 - ASK.

32:07 - >> HOW DID PHILADELPHIA

32:08 - NEWSPAPERS AND TELEVISION

32:09 - STATIONS TREAT YOU BECAUSE YOU

32:10 - WERE THE WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA

32:13 - GUY?

32:13 - >> ULTIMATELY -- BUT SO WAS

32:15 - FLAHERTY.

32:16 - DURING THE PRIMARY, LET ME SEE,

32:19 - I THINK WE HAD PERHAPS ONE

32:22 - ENDORSEMENT OUT OF THE

32:23 - PHILADELPHIA MEDIA MARKET DURING

32:24 - THE PRIMARY.

32:26 - BUT WE SCORED AT EVERYBODY.

32:28 - BY THE TIME YOU WERE THROUGH

32:30 - COURTING ALL THE MEDIA IN THE

32:32 - STATE, WE HAD THE SUPPORT ALMOST

32:33 - WALL TO WALL OF NEWSPAPER

32:37 - EDITORIAL.

32:37 - >> WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME AND

32:39 - SHARED A LOT OF THINKING WITH

32:40 - THEM.

32:41 - SO I THINK THAT PAID OFF.

32:43 - >> IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, WHAT

32:45 - WERE THE ISSUES?

32:47 - >> WHO CAN DO A BETTER JOB OF

32:49 - CLEANING UP HARRISBURG?

32:53 - >> WHO HAD THE IDEAS?

32:58 - WHO HAD THE ENERGY AND

33:00 - DETERMINATION TO GET THE JOB

33:01 - DONE AND, OF COURSE, THAT'S WHAT

33:03 - WE TRY TO PORTRAY THROUGHOUT THE

33:05 - WHOLE CAMPAIGN.

33:07 - AND WE HAD -- I REMEMBER ONE OF

33:08 - MY TAG LINES WHEN I WAS SPEAKING

33:12 - AND TALKED ABOUT STUMP SPEECHES,

33:14 - I SAID I ALWAYS ENDED UP SAYING

33:16 - THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY TO CLEAN UP

33:18 - HARRISBURG AND THAT'S TO CLEAN

33:19 - IT OUT.

33:21 - O-U-T OUT.

33:22 - >> WHO CAME UP WITH THAT ONE?

33:23 - >> I DID.

33:26 - BUT IT WAS VERY EFFECTIVE.

33:28 - AND, OF COURSE, YOU HAD A LOT OF

33:30 - OTHER TAG LINES THAT I LOVED.

33:33 - PENNDOT WAS A FOCUS OF PEOPLE'S

33:35 - IRE.

33:35 - NUMBER ONE, THEY WERE BROKE.

33:37 - NUMBER TWO, THEY WEREN'T VERY

33:38 - GOOD AT FILLING POTHOLES AND

33:41 - KEEPING HIGHWAYS AND BRIDGES IN

33:42 - REPAIR.

33:43 - THEY WERE A CESSPOOL OF

33:45 - CORRUPTION.

33:45 - SO I WOULD ALWAYS IDENTIFY

33:47 - PENNDOT AS A HOME OF THE THREE

33:49 - Ps.

33:50 - PAYOFF, PATRONAGE AND POTHOLES.

33:53 - AND THAT GOT A BIG APPLAUSE FROM

33:56 - PEOPLE ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL.

33:59 - >> WHAT WAS UNCLEAN ABOUT

34:00 - HARRISBURG THAT NEEDED TO BE

34:01 - CLEANED UP THAT YOU CAMPAIGNED

34:02 - AGAINST.

34:03 - CAN YOU GIVE US SPECIFICS ABOUT

34:04 - THINGS YOU SAW THAT WERE WRONG?

34:05 - >> THERE WAS A REAL CULTURE OF

34:07 - CORRUPTION.

34:08 - I MEAN, I CAN'T BEGIN TO

34:10 - THINK -- THEY ESTIMATED MAYBE

34:13 - 50, 55 PEOPLE IN THE SHAPP

34:17 - ADMINISTRATION WHO HELD SERIOUS

34:18 - RESPONSIBILITIES WHO WERE

34:20 - CONVICTED OF BRIBERY OR

34:21 - EXTORTION.

34:21 - SOME OF THOSE CASES I HAD TRIED

34:23 - MYSELF.

34:23 - I PERSONALLY TRIED THE CASE

34:25 - AGAINST THE SENATE MAJORITY

34:27 - LEADER FRANK MOSE AND FRANK

34:30 - HILTON WHO WAS A MEMBER OF THE

34:32 - SHAPP CABINET.

34:33 - AND WHEN I WAS IN WASHINGTON, WE

34:37 - HAD THE FEDERAL PROSECUTIONS OF

34:41 - BUDDY AND HERB.

34:45 - IT WAS A SORRY PICTURE.

34:46 - THERE WASN'T ANY -- THERE WAS NO

34:48 - NEED TO EXAGGERATE IT, SIMPLY

34:51 - TELLING THE STORY GOT PEOPLE'S

34:52 - ATTENTION.

34:54 - AND, OF COURSE, MY LINE WAS WHO

34:56 - BETTER THAN A PROSECUTOR TO

34:58 - HANDLE THESE KINDSÑi OF THINGS.

35:02 - ANDÑi PETE FLAHERTY WAS HONEST

35:04 - THEçó DAY IS LONG.

35:08 - DIDN'T HAVE THAT PROMINENCExD I

35:09 - DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS OF

35:11 - CORRUPTEJiP &H(LC%

35:12 - HE HAD RUN A MAJOR CITY AND HE

35:13 - HAD.

35:14 - Ap HE.

35:15 - THE ONLY PROBLEM WAS, AND THIS

35:17 - IS WHERE CAREFUL RESEARCH CAN

35:18 - HELP YOU OUT.

35:19 - OUR RESEARCH TEAM WENT TO WORK.

35:21 - AND PETE ALWAYS JUST KIND OF

35:23 - UPPED THE ANTE A LITTLE BIT ON

35:25 - HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

35:26 - AND WE WERE ABLE TO SHOW THAT

35:28 - HE -- THERE WAS A PATTERN THERE

35:32 - OF EXAGGERATION THERE OF WHAT

35:35 - HE'D DONE.

35:36 - IF HE RAN SIMPLY ON THE RECORD,

35:37 - HE'D BE FINE BUT HE MADE HIMSELF

35:40 - VULNERABLE BY EXAGGERATING IT.

35:41 - OUR GUYS WERE ABLE TO ZERO IN ON

35:45 - THAT.

35:46 - >> WAS THERE MUCH NEGATIVE

35:51 - CAMPAIGNING?

35:52 - >> NOT IN THAT ELECTION.

35:54 - IN THE 1978 ELECTION IT WAS

35:56 - PRETTY STRAIGHT FORWARD.

35:57 - WE TOOK GREAT DELIGHT IN NOT

35:58 - HAVING A BUNCH OF PICTURES THAT

36:00 - SHOWED FLAHERTY CAMPAIGNING WITH

36:01 - MILTON SHAPP IN EARLIER

36:04 - ELECTIONS BECAUSE MILTON SHAPP

36:06 - WAS NOT IN FAVOR BY THAT TIME.

36:08 - BUT I THINK THAT'S LEGITIMATE.

36:13 - HE WOULD -- HE BRANDED ME AS THE

36:16 - CANDIDATE OF THE WEALTHY AND BIG

36:19 - BUSINESS INTERESTS AND THINGS.

36:21 - I KIND OF SHUCKED THAT OFF AND

36:23 - JUST SAID, I'M PROUD TO HAVE THE

36:25 - SUPPORT OF PEOPLE WHO MADE MAJOR

36:28 - FORTUNES IN PENNSYLVANIA.

36:29 - THESE ARE THE SHAKERS AND

36:30 - MOVERS.

36:31 - THE HEINZS, THE MELLONS, THE

36:36 - HILLMANS, THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE

36:38 - REAL SUBSTANCE.

36:39 - I'M DELIGHTED TO HAVE THEIR

36:40 - SUPPORT.

36:41 - THEY KNOW THEY'LL GET NOTHING

36:42 - FROM ME BUT CLEAN GOVERNMENT AND

36:47 - STRAIGHT SHOOTING.

36:48 - AND I AM NOT GOING TO APOLOGIZE

36:50 - FOR THAT.

36:53 - SO IT WAS -- IT WAS A KIND OF A

36:56 - FOOL'S ERRAND FOR PETE TO TRY TO

36:59 - MAKE SOME HAY OUT OF THAT.

37:00 - WE HAD TWO DEBATES.

37:08 - FIRST DEBATE PETE SHOWED UP IN

37:10 - HIS SHIRT SLEEVES AND THAT KIND

37:11 - OF GOT EVERYBODY UPSET.

37:12 - NOT UPSET, BUT THEY JUST KIND

37:14 - OF -- WHAT'S THIS GUY DOING?

37:16 - HE WAS THERE, MAN OF THE PEOPLE.

37:17 - I SAID, WELL, I'D SHOW UP IN

37:20 - OVERALLS IF I KNEW THAT WAS THE

37:22 - WAY WE WERE GOING TO CONDUCT

37:23 - THIS.

37:24 - WE SCORED SOME POINTS IN THE

37:27 - DEBATE.

37:28 - IF GAVE ME A CHANCE TO SPEAK TO

37:30 - STATEWIDE AUDIENCE.

37:31 - ONE IN HERSHEY AND ONE IN

37:33 - PHILADELPHIA.

37:34 - IT.

37:37 - >> WAS THERE ANY TROUBLE GETTING

37:38 - THE REPUBLICAN PARTY REUNITED

37:41 - AFTER THE PRIMARY?

37:43 - >> NOT AT ALL.

37:44 - WE HAD THE DAY FOLLOWING THE

37:45 - ELECTION, WE HAD A UNITY RALLY

37:48 - IN HARRISBURG ATTENDED BY ALL OF

37:50 - THE PRIMARY CANDIDATES WHO ALL

37:54 - ENDORSED ME.

37:56 - NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIR BILL

37:57 - BROCK WAS THERE.

37:58 - WE HAD A HUGE CROWD AND A LOT OF

38:03 - ENTHUSIASM THAT CARRIED ON

38:04 - THROUGH THE CAMPAIGN.

38:07 - SO MERCIFULLY, NOBODY WAS

38:09 - LICKING THEIR WOUNDS OR TAKING A

38:13 - BYE ON THE CAMPAIGN.

38:16 - ALL THE OPPONENTS I HAD PITCHED

38:18 - IN TO HELP AND DID A LOT OF

38:20 - GOOD.

38:20 - >> AT WHAT POINT IN THE CAMPAIGN

38:22 - DID YOU KNOW YOU WERE GOING TO

38:24 - WIN?

38:24 - >> WHEN WALTER CRONKITE CALLED

38:26 - ME A WINNER ON ELECTION EVE.

38:28 - I MEAN, WE STILL HAD DISMAL POLL

38:30 - NUMBERS AS IT WENT ON.

38:31 - I REMEMBER ONE VERY YOUNG

38:34 - PHILADELPHIA TELEVISION REPORTER

38:37 - CORNERED ME LATE ONE EVENING AS

38:40 - WE WERE TOURING THROUGH THE

38:41 - PHILADELPHIA SUBURBS.

38:42 - AND SHE HAD AN ADVANCE STORY OF

38:44 - A POLL THAT SHOWED US LOSING

38:50 - LIKE 51-39 OR SOMETHING LIKE

38:53 - THAT.

38:53 - AND I SAID THAT'S TREMENDOUS.

38:55 - THAT'S GREAT NEWS.

38:56 - WE'RE MAKING HUGE PROGRESS FROM

38:58 - WHAT THE POLL SHOWED US 32

39:01 - POINTS DOWN.

39:01 - AND SHE KIND OF LOOKED AROUND AS

39:03 - IF TO SAY, I NEVER HEARD OF THAT

39:05 - POLL.

39:06 - I'M THINKING, OBVIOUSLY YOU

39:07 - NEVER DID BECAUSE THAT POLL WAS

39:09 - ABSOLUTELY SECURE.

39:10 - NOBODY EVER KNEW THAT WE WERE

39:12 - DOWN THAT FAR IN THE POLLS.

39:13 - BUT IT DID GIVE US A MOMENTUM

39:19 - SHOVE WHEN THE NEXT POLL SHOWED

39:21 - US DOWN LESS AND THEN CLOSER AND

39:23 - CLOSER.

39:25 - I DON'T THINK ANY POLL EVER

39:25 - CALLED US A WINNER UNTIL

39:26 - ELECTION DAY.

39:27 - >> YOUR OWN POLLS DIDN'T SHOW

39:29 - YOU AHEAD?

39:29 - >> WE DIDN'T DO ANY INTERNAL

39:31 - POLLING AFTER THAT CLOSE TO THE

39:33 - ELECTION.

39:34 - >> WHERE DID YOU SPEND ELECTION

39:35 - NIGHT?

39:36 - >> WELL, ELECTION DAY WE WENT --

39:38 - FLEW FROM PITTSBURGH TO

39:39 - PHILADELPHIA TO HARRISBURG AND

39:41 - BACK TO PITTSBURGH, OUR HOME.

39:47 - I WAS -- IT WAS ABOUT 8:00, AND

39:49 - I WAS COMING OUT OF THE SHOWER,

39:52 - TOWELLING MYSELF OFF AND MY SON

39:55 - JOHN WHO WAS CLOSEST OF THE

39:56 - FAMILY TO THE CAMPAIGN SAID,

39:58 - DAD, WALTER CRONKITE JUST CALLED

40:00 - YOU A WINNER ON CBS.

40:02 - AND I SAID, WHAT?

40:04 - AND, INDEED, HE HAD.

40:06 - SO IT WAS OVER.

40:07 - IT WAS ANTI-CLIMACTIC BECAUSE WE

40:09 - GOT IN THE CAR, WENT DOWN TO THE

40:12 - WILLIAM PENN HOTEL WHERE WE HAD

40:13 - A BIG CAMPAIGN SETUP.

40:15 - WE EXPECTED A VERY LONG NIGHT

40:17 - AND, FRANKLY, SOME

40:20 - DISAPPOINTMENT.

40:20 - BUT BY 10:30, PETE FLAHERTY

40:22 - CALLED AND CONCEDED AND IT WAS

40:24 - ALL OVER.

40:26 - SO IT WAS REALLY ASTONISHING HOW

40:29 - QUICKLY THAT CAME TO PASS.

40:31 - >> WHAT DID YOU SAY TO THE

40:33 - ASSEMBLED CROWD WHEN YOU EMERGED

40:35 - AS THE WINNER?

40:36 - >> I WAS INSUFFERABLY EXUBERANT.

40:40 - WE HAD HAD A LONG HAUL.

40:42 - HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THAT ROOM

40:44 - HAD HAT A LONG HAUL.

40:45 - PEOPLE HAD GIVEN UP TIME AND

40:47 - CAREERS AND A LOT OF THEM HAD

40:49 - WORKED EVEN ON THE PAYROLL.

40:51 - WE HAD BEEN ABLE TO MEET OUR

40:52 - PAYROLL AND THEY WERE STILL

40:53 - HANGING IN THERE.

40:54 - SO I WAS FIRST OF ALL MOST

40:56 - GRATEFUL TO EVERYBODY WAS IN

40:58 - THAT ROOM.

40:58 - AND IT WAS BEDLAM.

41:00 - THESE PEOPLE COULDN'T BELIEVE

41:01 - THAT WE HAD WON THIS ELECTION

41:04 - BECAUSE HOWEVER BUOYANT AND

41:06 - SUPPORTIVE THEY HAD BEEN DURING

41:07 - THE CAMPAIGN, I THINK IN THE

41:08 - BACK OF THEIR MIND THEY JUST

41:10 - THOUGHT, THIS ISN'T GOING TO

41:11 - WORK.

41:11 - BUT LO AND BEHOLD, IT DID.

41:15 - AND I PAID TRIBUTE TO EVERYBODY

41:17 - I COULD THINK OF, INCLUDING PETE

41:19 - FLAHERTY WHO WAS A REAL

41:21 - GENTLEMAN.

41:21 - HE WAS A PLEASURE.

41:22 - AS I SAID, HE WAS A FRIEND, AND

41:24 - IT WAS NOT EASY TO RUN AGAINST A

41:26 - FRIEND.

41:27 - BUT WE PLAYED IT STRAIGHT AND

41:29 - ARGUED, YOU KNOW, THE FACTS AND

41:31 - WHAT WE THOUGHT WERE THE POINTS

41:32 - WE COULD MAKE.

41:34 - >> TWONS WAS OVER AND YOU WERE

41:35 - THE GOVERNOR-ELECT, WHAT WAS THE

41:37 - FIRST THING YOU DID?

41:38 - HOW DID YOU SET ABOUT PUTTING IT

41:40 - ALL TOGETHER?

41:41 - >> WELL, FIRST THING I DID WAS

41:43 - FLY TO PHILADELPHIA AND WE HAD A

41:45 - BIG THANK YOU RALLY DOWN THERE.

41:47 - ONE OF THE MAJOR HOTELS.

41:48 - AND I DID A RATHER POOR

41:51 - INVITATION OF THE MUMMERS STRUT

41:52 - TO TRY TO ENDEAR -- BEGIN TO

41:55 - ENDEAR MYSELF TO

41:56 - PHILADELPHIIANS.

41:57 - THERE WAS A BIG PICTURE OF ME ON

41:58 - THE "DAILY NEWS" FRONT PAGE.

42:02 - AND WE BEGAN THE PROCESS OF

42:05 - TRYING TO BUILD THAT KIND OF

42:08 - RELATIONSHIP.

42:08 - >> DID YOU START WITH YOUR

42:09 - CAMPAIGN PEOPLE OR DID YOU START

42:11 - WITH ALL NEW PEOPLE?

42:12 - >> WE STARTED -- THE CAMPAIGN

42:14 - PEOPLE ARE THE ONES WHO CARRIED

42:16 - OVER.

42:17 - THEY ALL MOVED FROM EQUIVALENT

42:18 - JOBS IN THE CAMPAIGN TO

42:20 - EQUIVALENT JOBS ON THE

42:21 - TRANSITION TEAM.

42:22 - AND THEN PART OF THE TASK OF THE

42:23 - TRANSITION TEAM WAS TO IDENTIFY

42:25 - PEOPLE WHO COULD SERVE IN

42:27 - GOVERNMENT WHO HAD NOT JUST

42:29 - POLITICAL SKILLS BUT HAD

42:30 - MANAGEMENT SKILLS AND TECHNICAL

42:32 - SKILLS.

42:33 - AND THE RECRUITING OF THE

42:34 - CABINET WAS A REALLY FASCINATING

42:38 - EXERCISE.

42:39 - MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ENDED UP

42:40 - IN THE CABINET WE RECRUITED TO

42:42 - SERVE ON THE TRANSITION TEAMS.

42:43 - WE HAD, I THINK, MAYBE 12

42:45 - TRANSITION TEAMS THAT RICK

42:46 - STAFFORD OVERSAW.

42:47 - AND EACH ONE OF THEM WAS TO

42:49 - EXAMINE A PARTICULAR AREA OF

42:50 - STATE GOVERNMENT, FIND OUT WHAT

42:52 - THE CURRENT STATE WAS, WHAT THE

42:53 - PROSPECTS WERE, WHAT THE HAZARDS

42:55 - WERE.

42:56 - AND PRESENT THOSE TO ME.

42:59 - SO I HAD A HORIZON TO HORIZON

43:02 - VIEW OF PRECISELY WHERE WE STOOD

43:04 - BECAUSE WE HAD A COUPLE OF

43:06 - MONTHS WHERE WE TOOK OVER.

43:07 - >> AS GOVERNOR-ELECT, HOW MANY

43:09 - JOBS DID YOU HAVE TO FILL?

43:10 - >> WELL, WE HAD A VERY

43:14 - CHALLENGING SITUATION ON OUR

43:15 - HAND WITH REGARD TO A LOT OF MY

43:19 - REPUBLICAN SUPPORTERS.

43:21 - A LITTLE HISTORY HERE.

43:24 - BACKGROUND.

43:25 - LAST REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR TO

43:26 - SUCCEED A DEMOCRAT HAD BEEN BILL

43:28 - SCRANTON, THE OLDER -- THE ELDER

43:31 - BILL SCRANTON, THE FATHER OF MY

43:33 - LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR.

43:35 - IN 1963, HE HAD WON ELECTION IN

43:39 - '62 AND HE WAS -- TOOK OFFICE IN

43:43 - 1963.

43:43 - AND THERE WERE APPROXIMATELY

43:46 - 50,000 STATE JOBS TO BE FILLED

43:49 - BY THE GOVERNOR, PATRONAGE

43:52 - POSITIONS.

43:52 - PENNSYLVANIA WAS ONE OF THE

43:54 - MAJOR PATRONAGE STATES IN THE

43:57 - COUNTRY.

43:57 - AND NATURALLY WHEN I WAS ELECTED

44:01 - AND TOOK OFFICE, A LOT OF THE

44:03 - ELDER STATESMEN REMEMBERED THAT

44:06 - ERA AND FULLY EXPECTED THAT

44:08 - THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF LARGESS

44:11 - IN THE FORM OF PATRONAGE JOBS

44:12 - OUT THERE FOR THEM.

44:17 - I HAVE CAMPAIGNED VERY

44:21 - VOCIFEROUSLY ABOUT PATRONAGE

44:23 - ABUSES.

44:23 - AND I DON'T THINK THAT THOSE

44:24 - PEOPLE TOOK ME SERIOUSLY, BUT

44:26 - THERE WAS A METHOD TO MY MADNESS

44:29 - AS WELL.

44:29 - IN THE INTERVENING TIME, WE HAD

44:32 - HAD A NUMBER OF FACTORS COME

44:34 - INTO PLAY.

44:35 - NUMBER ONE, FIRST OF ALL, WAS

44:37 - THE UNIONIZATION OF THE STATE

44:40 - WORKFORCE.

44:40 - THE PUBLIC EMPLOYEES COLLECTIVE

44:42 - BARGAINING ACT WAS PASSED IN THE

44:45 - 1970s.

44:46 - EARLY 1970s.

44:50 - SECONDLY, GOVERNOR SCRANTON

44:53 - SHREWDLY HAD CONVERTED A LOT OF

44:54 - THE POSITIONS TO WHOM HE HAD

44:56 - MADE PATRONAGE APPOINTMENTS INTO

44:58 - CIVIL SERVICE POSITIONS SO THAT

45:00 - THEY WERE BEYOND REACH.

45:02 - THIRDLY, THE U.S. SUPREME COURT

45:06 - IN A LANDMARK DECISION HAD HELD

45:10 - THAT YOU COULD NOT FIRE SOMEONE

45:15 - IN A NONPOLICY-MAKING POSITION

45:18 - SIMPLY ON THE BASIS OF THEIR

45:19 - PARTY AFFILIATION.

45:21 - THE NET RESULT OF THAT WAS THAT

45:23 - THERE WEREN'T 50,000 PATRONAGE

45:25 - JOBS TO BE FILLED IN MY

45:27 - ADMINISTRATION.

45:28 - THEY WERE CLOSER TO 900.

45:30 - AND MOST OF THOSE ARE IN THE

45:33 - HARRISBURG AREA.

45:34 - WELL, A LOT OF THE POLITICAL

45:35 - LEADERS AROUND THE STATES WERE

45:37 - NOT STUDENTS OF THE SUPREME

45:38 - COURT OR STUDENTS OF THE OTHER

45:41 - MANAGEMENT ISSUES THAT CAME UP

45:43 - HERE.

45:43 - SO FOR THE FIRST TWO YEARS IN

45:46 - OFFICE, WE WERE JUST BEATEN UP

45:49 - UNMERCIFULLY BY THE POLITICAL

45:50 - LEADERSHIP WHO WANTED JOBS,

45:52 - JOBS, JOBS.

45:53 - AND THEY WEREN'T TALKING ABOUT

45:54 - ECONOMIC GROWTH.

45:55 - THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT

45:57 - PATRONAGE POSITIONS.

45:58 - AND TIME AND AGAIN, I AND

46:01 - PARTICULARLY MURRAY DICKMAN WHO

46:02 - WAS SECRETARY OF ADMINISTRATION

46:03 - LATER ON IN THE ADMINISTRATION,

46:04 - WOULD HAVE TO GO TO THESE

46:06 - POLITICAL MEETINGS AND TRY TO

46:08 - EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHY THOSE JOBS

46:09 - WEREN'T THERE.

46:10 - NOW AS I SAID, WE SHAMELESSLY

46:14 - TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THE SITUATION

46:15 - BY CAMPAIGNING AGAINST

46:19 - PATRONAGE.

46:20 - AND I SPOKE TO A POST-ELECTION

46:22 - RALLY HELD IN HERSHEY AND SAID

46:26 - THE DAYS OF PATRONAGE PLUNDER

46:28 - ARE OVER WHICH SENT A SHUTTER

46:30 - THROUGH A LOT OF POLITICAL

46:31 - LEADERS WHO WERE THERE.

46:32 - BUT IT MADE HUGE POINTS WITH THE

46:34 - PUBLIC AND WITH THE NEWS MEDIA.

46:35 - AND ALL I WAS DOING WAS

46:37 - RECOGNIZING AN EXISTING

46:38 - CONDITION.

46:39 - WE COULDN'T HAVE FILLED THOSE

46:40 - JOBS ON A PATRONAGE BASIS AS IN

46:42 - THE OLD DAYS IF WE WANTED TO BUT

46:45 - IT GAVE US A NICE EDGE AND

46:47 - ENTDED UP WITH MUCH BETTER

46:49 - GOVERNMENT.

46:49 - WE GOT REALLY GOOD PEOPLE INTO

46:50 - GOVERNMENT.

46:51 - >> HOW DID YOU PICK THE CABINET

46:53 - SECRETARIES AND DID YOU KNOW

46:54 - THEM ALL BEFOREHAND?

46:55 - >> I KNEW A NUMBER OF THEM.

46:58 - SOME OF THE BEST CHOICES THAT I

47:03 - MADE WERE FROM PEOPLE I'D WORKED

47:05 - WITH IN THE CAMPAIGN.

47:07 - THE BEST EXAMPLE THAT PROBABLY

47:10 - IS TOM LARSON, HEAD OF THE

47:12 - TRANSPORTATION RESEARCH

47:13 - INSTITUTE THERE.

47:14 - AND HE HAD PROVIDED A LOT OF THE

47:16 - THINK PIECES THAT RICK STAFFORD

47:18 - AND I WENT OVER IN FORMULATING

47:21 - OUR PENNDOT POLICY.

47:22 - AND AT THE END OF THE CAMPAIGN,

47:25 - HE HAD WORKED ON THE TRANSITION

47:27 - COMMITTEE AND WE WERE PUTTING

47:29 - THE CABINET TOGETHER AND I PUT

47:31 - THE QUESTION TO TOM.

47:33 - I WOULD REALLY LIKE YOU TO SERVE

47:35 - AS SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION.

47:37 - AND HE IS JUST ABSOLUTELY NOT.

47:40 - HE SAID HE HAS NO INTEREST IN

47:41 - POLITICS.

47:42 - HE HAS NO SKILL AT IT.

47:49 - AND TOM JUST WOULDN'T SERVE.

47:52 - I SAID, TOM, LISTEN TO ME, WILL

47:54 - YOU?

47:55 - HOW YOUR GOING TO GO BACK TO

47:56 - PENN STATE WITH ALL OF YOUR

48:00 - PROFESSIONAL COLLEAGUES AROUND

48:02 - THE COUNTRY WHO HAVE SUCH

48:03 - RESPECT FOR YOU AND FOR YOUR

48:05 - OPINIONS AND VIEWS AND EXPLAIN

48:06 - TO THEM HOW YOU TURNED DOWN THE

48:10 - OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE SUBSTANTIAL

48:11 - IMPROVEMENTS IN WHAT IS REALLY

48:13 - THE WORST TRANSPORTATION

48:14 - DEPARTMENT IN THE COUNTRY.

48:16 - HE GULPED.

48:17 - HE SAID, WELL, I'LL THINK ABOUT

48:19 - IT.

48:19 - AND FINALLY HE DID COME BACK.

48:22 - AND THEREIN LIES A TALE AS WELL

48:28 - BECAUSE THERE'S A MAGAZINE THAT

48:32 - GOES TO ALL THE ENGINEERING,

48:34 - CONSTRUCTION PROFESSION.

48:37 - IT'S THE BIBLE OF THE BUSINESS.

48:38 - AND IN JANUARY OF 1979, RIGHT

48:42 - AFTER IT TAKES OFFICE, THEY HAD

48:45 - A COVER STORY FEATURING ME.

48:47 - I WAS A CIVIL ENGINEER.

48:50 - I KNEW SOME OF THE TECHNICAL

48:52 - ISSUES.

48:53 - BUT THAT WASN'T THE REASON I WAS

48:54 - ON THE COVER.

48:55 - THE REASON I WAS ON THE COVER

48:56 - WAS THEY DESCRIBED PENNDOT AS

48:59 - KIND OF THE POSTER CHILD FOR

49:04 - DYSFUNCTIONAL STATE.

49:06 - AND THEY RAN AN EDITORIAL.

49:09 - IT'S REALLY WORTH READING AND

49:12 - LOOKING AT.

49:13 - AND LET'S SKETCH THE PARAMETERS

49:15 - OF WHAT THE CHALLENGE THAT TOM

49:17 - LARSON HAD TO FACE WHEN HE

49:19 - BECAME SECRETARY OF

49:21 - TRANSPORTATION.

49:22 - THREE YEARS LATER, THE COVER

49:23 - STORY ON THE ENGINEERING NEWS

49:26 - RECORD WAS TOM LARSON, THE MAN

49:27 - OF THE YEAR IN TRANSPORTATION

49:30 - FOR HAVING TURNED PENNDOT INTO,

49:34 - AND I'M QUOTING HERE, BECAUSE

49:37 - IT'S STENCILLED ON TO MY BRAIN.

49:40 - ONE OF THE BEST MANAGED AND BEST

49:43 - FINANCED TRANSPORTATION AGENCIES

49:45 - IN THE COUNTRY.

49:45 - HE DID THAT IN THREE YEARS.

49:46 - OF COURSE, FOLLOWED THROUGH.

49:51 - AND IT WAS REALLY THE

49:52 - CENTERPIECE OF OUR MANAGEMENT

49:54 - ACCOMPLISHMENTS WAS TAKING AN

49:57 - ORGANIZATION THAT WAS HOPELESSLY

50:00 - DYSFUNCTIONAL AND TURNING IT

50:01 - INTO, AS THEY SAID, THE BEST

50:04 - MANAGED AND BEST FINANCED IN THE

50:06 - COUNTRY.

50:06 - >> DID IT TAKE MORE MONEY?

50:09 - >> YEP.

50:09 - WE ADDED MORE MONEY ON TO THE

50:11 - GASOLINE TAX.

50:12 - WE ADDED MORE MONEY ON TO HOW A

50:17 - TRUCK HAD TO PAY BECAUSE OF THE

50:18 - DAMAGE THEY DID SIMPLY BECAUSE

50:19 - OF THE LOADS THEY CARRIED.

50:21 - BUT IT'S A CLASSIC USER FEE.

50:27 - THAT'S WHAT YOU PAY.

50:27 - THAT'S THE PRICE YOU PAY FOR

50:29 - HAVING GOOD HIGHWAYS.

50:30 - AND I'LL NEVER FORGET ONE DAY

50:33 - TOM LARSON, THIS WAS PROBABLY

50:34 - ABOUT 1980, 1981, WE WENT OUT TO

50:41 - SEWICKLEY, PENNSYLVANIA, TO

50:42 - DEDICATE THE BRAND NEW SEWICKLEY

50:45 - BRIDGE.

50:45 - AND TOM AND I WERE THERE ON THE

50:47 - SPEAKER'S PLATFORM AND, YOU

50:49 - KNOW, STILL A LITTLE BIT DODGY

50:50 - ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE THOUGHT ABOUT

50:52 - PENNDOT, PARTICULARLY IN WESTERN

50:54 - PENNSYLVANIA WHERE I CAME FROM.

50:55 - SO I GOT UP AND AT THE FIRST

50:58 - MENTION OF THE WORDS PENNDOT IN

51:00 - MY SPEECH, A HUGE ROUND OF

51:02 - APPLAUSE BROKE OUT.

51:03 - AND I LOOKED AT TOM AND TOM

51:05 - LOOKED AT ME AND WE SAID,

51:08 - MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

51:09 - SO WHEN WE CUT THE RIBBON OUT

51:11 - THERE WE REALLY CUT THE TIES TO

51:13 - THE PAST.

51:14 - A DISCREDITED AGENCY.

51:16 - AND IT WAS ONE TRIUMPH AFTER

51:17 - ANOTHER.

51:17 - AND WE HAD TREMENDOUS SUPPORT IN

51:18 - THE LEGISLATURE.

51:22 - WE HAD $2 BILLION BRIDGE REPAIR

51:24 - PROGRAMS THAT WERE CARRIED OUT.

51:25 - AND IT WAS PROBABLY A THING I

51:27 - WAS MOST PROUD OF BECAUSE IT WAS

51:29 - MOST VISIBLE.

51:29 - AND AS AN OLD CIVIL ENGINEER

51:31 - MYSELF, I KIND OF LIKE THOSE

51:33 - ISSUES.

51:33 - >> DID YOU HAVE TO FIRE A LOT OF

51:35 - PEOPLE FROM PENNDOT?

51:37 - >> LET'S SAY THAT WE REPLACED A

51:40 - LOT OF PEOPLE.

51:43 - WE CUT THE WHOLE STATE PAYROLL

51:45 - BY ABOUT 15,000 UNNECESSARY

51:46 - POSITIONS.

51:47 - IT WAS A BUREAUCRACY WAS JUST

51:49 - TOTALLY SWOLLEN.

51:50 - BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE TO FIRE

51:51 - PEOPLE.

51:51 - WE DIDN'T HAVE TO GO AROUND AND

51:53 - HAND PEOPLE PINK SLIPS.

51:55 - WHAT WE WOULD DO IS LET

51:56 - ATTRITION TAKE ITS COURSE.

51:59 - AS VACANCIES OCCURRED, THEY

52:01 - SIMPLY WOULDN'T BE FILLED AND WE

52:02 - HAD A JOB FREEZE, A HIRING

52:04 - FREEZE ON THE ENTIRE TIME I WAS

52:06 - IN OFFICE.

52:08 - OBVIOUSLY, SUBJECT TO EXEMPTION

52:09 - IF YOU HAD A PARTICULAR NEED.

52:11 - BUT IN PENNDOT, IT WAS MORE THE

52:14 - QUALITY OF THE PEOPLE WE HAD.

52:16 - THEY HAD ONE ENGINEER AS THE

52:18 - HEAD OF THEIR MAINTENANCE

52:21 - OPERATION IN THE 67 COUNTIES.

52:22 - ONE COUNTY HAD AN ENGINEER AHEAD

52:24 - OF THAT.

52:25 - BY THE TIME WE LEFT, THAT NUMBER

52:27 - WAS CLOSER TO 30.

52:28 - AND SINCE THAT TIME IT'S BEEN

52:30 - MAINTAINED.

52:37 - HE WAS WIDELY RECOGNIZED AROUND

52:40 - THE COUNTRY FOR HIS EFFORTS.

52:44 - THE HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATION,

52:46 - DISTINGUISHED CAREER.

52:47 - WAS A DOWN TO EARTH, WONDERFUL

52:49 - HUMAN BEING.

52:50 - AND HE WAS REALLY AN ALL-STAR.

52:54 - ANOTHER REALLY KEY FACTOR IN OUR

52:57 - EFFORTS WAS BOB WILLBURN.

52:59 - BOB WILLBURN WAS THE PRESIDENT

53:01 - OF INDIANA UNIVERSITY OF

53:02 - PENNSYLVANIA WHILE I WAS RUNNING

53:04 - FOR OFFICE.

53:05 - AND ON THE DAY AFTER THE

53:07 - ELECTION, HE GAVE A SPEECH TO

53:08 - THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE UP IN

53:12 - INDIANA.

53:12 - AND SAID, WHAT GOVERNOR

53:15 - THORNBURGH SHOULD DO TO TURN

53:16 - AROUND PENNSYLVANIA'S ECONOMY.

53:17 - SO I READ THE SPEECH.

53:19 - AND UNDERLINED IT AS IS MY

53:21 - FASHION ALL THE TIME.

53:22 - AND I CALLED BOB UP.

53:23 - I MET HIM DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

53:24 - WE'D BEEN ON THE CAMPUS UP

53:26 - THERE.

53:26 - I SAID, I READ YOUR SWEEP OF.

53:28 - HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO WORK ON

53:32 - OUR TRANSITION?

53:33 - HE SAID HE'D LOVE TO AND HE DID

53:34 - AND QUICKLY IT BECAME APPARENT

53:36 - THIS WAS A QUICK TALENT.

53:38 - HE BECAME THE HEAD OF OUR OMB,

53:40 - THE SECRETARY OF BUDGET AND

53:42 - ADMINISTRATION.

53:42 - AND HE PUT TOGETHER BUDGETS THAT

53:46 - JUST WERE 100% RESPONSIVE TO THE

53:51 - NEEDS OF THE STATE.

53:52 - LATER BECAME SECRETARY OF

53:54 - EDUCATION.

53:55 - LATER HAD A DISTINGUISHED CAREER

53:57 - IN A VARIETY OF PUBLIC SETTINGS

54:02 - AND JUST REALLY, TRULY IF THEY

54:03 - HAD A HALL OF FAME, CERTAINLY

54:05 - TOM LARSON AND BOB WILLBURN

54:09 - WOULD BE IN THERE.

54:10 - AND I SINGLE THEM OUT BUT THEY

54:13 - HAD COUNTERPARTS IN OTHER AREAS

54:14 - AS WELL.

54:14 - >> WHAT KIND OF SHAPE WAS THE

54:16 - STATE'S ECONOMY IN WHEN YOU

54:18 - BECAME GOVERNOR?

54:18 - >> IT WAS DREADFUL.

54:21 - OUR HEAVY MANUFACTURING,

54:22 - PARTICULARLY STEAL INDUSTRY HAD

54:23 - ALL BUT COLLAPSED.

54:28 - UNEMPLOYMENT REACHED ABOUT 14%

54:32 - IN 1981 AND '82.

54:34 - THE DEPTHS OF THEIR NATIONAL

54:36 - RECESSION.

54:36 - BUT EVEN WORSE IN CENTRAL

54:40 - PENNSYLVANIA.

54:41 - BUT WORST OF ALL, WE HAD NO

54:43 - STRATEGY TO CREATE JOBS AND

54:47 - INVIGORATE THE ECONOMY.

54:48 - IT WAS JUST ALMOST DEAD IN THE

54:52 - WATER.

54:53 - AND SO THAT WAS OUR MAJOR TASK.

54:56 - WE REALLY HAD TO REBUILD

54:58 - PEOPLE'S CONFIDENCE IN

55:00 - PENNSYLVANIA AS A GOOD PLACE TO

55:03 - DO BUSINESS.

55:04 - AND THAT TOOK ALL OF EIGHT

55:06 - YEARS.

55:06 - WE VERY CAREFULLY STRUCTURED THE

55:09 - COMPONENTS OF OUR ECONOMIC

55:11 - TALENT PROGRAM SO THAT THEY

55:15 - ADDRESSED EVERY NEED.

55:18 - CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT THAT WAS

55:20 - HOSPITABLE FOR THOSE WHO WOULD

55:22 - INVEST IN PENNSYLVANIA, CREATE

55:24 - JOBS AND STIMULATE GROWTH.

55:28 - SO WE CUT THE CORPORATE TAX RATE

55:31 - FROM 11.5% WHICH WAS ON THE HIGH

55:33 - NEST THE COUNTRY DOWN TO 8.5%.

55:35 - SINCE THEN IT'S CREEPED BACK UP.

55:40 - BUT IT WASN'T DOLLARS AND CENTS.

55:42 - IT SENT A MESSAGE OF CONCERN TO

55:45 - PEOPLE.

55:46 - WE INCREASED THE AMOUNT OF

55:50 - FUNDING AVAILABLE FOR LOW

55:53 - INTEREST LOANS FOR BRICKS AND

55:55 - MORTAR.

55:57 - WE HAD A SMALL BUSINESS ACTION

56:00 - CENTER THAT COULD DEAL WITH THE

56:02 - CONCERNS WITHIN THE BUREAUCRACY

56:03 - THAT SMALL BUSINESS PEOPLE HAD.

56:04 - THEY'D RUN INTO A STONE WALL AND

56:06 - THEN THEY COULD GO RIGHT TO THE

56:08 - ACTION CENTER.

56:09 - WE HAD A PROGRAM CUSTOMIZED JOB

56:12 - TRAINING THROUGH OUR COMMUNITY

56:14 - COLLEGE.

56:15 - IT GOES ON AND ON.

56:16 - BUT THE CENTERPIECE OF ALL OF

56:18 - THAT WAS THE BEN FRANKLIN

56:20 - PARTNERSHIP WHICH WAS DESIGNED

56:21 - TO TAKE ADVANTAGE FOR THE FIRST

56:23 - TIME IN A SYSTEMATIC WAY OF THE

56:26 - ENORMOUS CAPABILITY, OUR

56:28 - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES HAD IN

56:30 - SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.

56:32 - RESEARCH CAPABILITIES.

56:33 - AND TO THIS DAY, OF COURSE, ONE

56:35 - OF THE STRENGTHS OF PENNSYLVANIA

56:37 - IS WHAT OUR COLLEGES AND

56:38 - UNIVERSITIES HAVE IN TERMS OF

56:43 - KNOWLEDGE.

56:43 - WE ARE REALLY IN A KNOWLEDGE

56:46 - ECONOMY.

56:46 - PENNSYLVANIA CONTINUES TO STAND

56:48 - OUT.

56:48 - BUT IN THOSE DAYS, WE HAD NO

56:50 - SYSTEMATIC WAY TO TAKE CARE OF

56:51 - IT.

56:52 - AND WE DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF

56:53 - MONEY TO PUT INTO IT.

56:54 - SO THE BEN FRANKLIN PARTNERSHIP

56:56 - WAS A PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP

56:58 - ESTABLISHED BETWEEN THE

57:00 - GOVERNMENT, PENNSYLVANIA AND OUR

57:01 - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.

57:02 - WE CREATED FOUR SEPARATE CENTERS

57:05 - AROUND THE STATE IN ORDER TO

57:06 - CAPITALIZE ON WHAT THEY HAD TO

57:08 - OFFER IN THE WAY OF SAVVY AND

57:12 - THE SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING

57:14 - FIELD.

57:14 - >> I'M SENATOR JOHN HEINZ.

57:16 - WE'RE AT A CROSSROADS IN

57:17 - PENNSYLVANIA TODAY.

57:18 - AND YOUR VOTE FOR GOVERNOR WILL

57:20 - DECIDE WHAT DIRECTION WE TAKE IN

57:21 - THE FUTURE.

57:22 - PITTSBURGH IS MY HOME.

57:23 - I KNOW BOTH CANDIDATES.

57:25 - AND THE CHOICE BETWEEN THE TWO

57:26 - IS CLEAR.

57:27 - DICK THORNBURGH IS THE ONE MAN

57:29 - WHO CAN MAKE A CLEAN SWEEP IN

57:31 - HARRISBURG AND END THE SORRY

57:32 - RECORD OF THE PAST EIGHT YEARS.

57:33 - DICK THORNBURGH HAS A PROVEN

57:35 - RECORD AS A TOUGH PROSECUTOR AND

57:37 - A TOUGH ADMINISTRATOR.

57:40 - THIS YEAR, VOTE FOR DICK

57:44 - THORNBURGH FOR GOVERNOR.

57:44 - >> AS WE COME TO THE END OF THIS

57:47 - CAM PAIRNGS IT'S CLEAR THERE'S

57:49 - AN URGENT NEED FOR CHANGE.

57:51 - NOTHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT JOBS.

57:52 - NOTHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT ROADS

57:54 - OR TAXES UNTIL WE CLEAN UP THE

57:55 - WAIST AND CORRUPTION.

57:57 - I WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO

58:00 - SUCCESSFULLY PROSECUTE

58:00 - CORRUPTION IN THE SHAPP

58:02 - ADMINISTRATION AND I'M THE ONLY

58:03 - CANDIDATE IN THIS RACE WITH THE

58:04 - EXPERIENCE AND THE INDEPENDENCE

58:05 - TO FINISH THE JOB.

58:07 - IF WHAT YOU WANT IS REAL CHANGE

58:09 - IN HARRISBURG, I NEED YOUR VOTE

58:12 - ON TUESDAY.

58:13 - >> WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER ABOUT

58:15 - INAUGURATION DAY?

58:16 - >> INAUGURATION DAY FOR US WAS

58:18 - THE CULMINATION OF ALL OF THE

58:20 - EFFORT THAT WE'D PUT IN DURING

58:22 - THE CAMPAIGN AND DURING THE

58:25 - TRANSITION PERIOD.

58:26 - AND NOW IT'S FINALLY TIME FOR ME

58:28 - TO LOOK THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE

58:30 - SUPREME COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA IN

58:32 - THE EYE AND RAISE MY RIGHT HAND

58:34 - WITH THE HAND ON THE BIBLE THAT

58:36 - ONCE BELONGED TO WILLIAM PENN.

58:38 - AND TAKE THE OATH OF OFFICE AND

58:42 - THEN TRY TO COMMUNICATE SOME OF

58:44 - MY FEELING ABOUT PENNSYLVANIA

58:47 - AND ITS PROBLEMS AND WHAT WE

58:49 - THOUGHT WE COULD DO TO SOLVE TO

58:51 - THE CROWD THAT WAS ON HAND.

58:53 - WE HAD A VERY AUSTERE

58:56 - INAUGURATION.

58:56 - WE HAD NONE OF THE PARADES, THE

58:58 - POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE THAT HAD

59:00 - NORMALLY BEEN PUT ON.

59:01 - AND THAT GOT PEOPLE A LITTLE BIT

59:04 - UPSET BECAUSE THEY WERE USED TO

59:05 - THAT.

59:06 - BUT I WANTED TO MAKE THE POINT

59:07 - THAT THESE WERE DIFFICULT TIMES

59:10 - FOR OUR STATE.

59:11 - AND THAT WE WERE NOT GOING TO

59:16 - SPEND MONEY UNNECESSARILY.

59:17 - WE'RE GOING TO -- AND I WORE OUT

59:20 - THE EXPRESSION DOING MORE WITH

59:22 - LESS DURING THE TIME THAT I WAS

59:24 - IN OFFICE.

59:25 - WE DID HAVE ONE EXTRAVAGANCE.

59:29 - THE BALL AT THE END OF THE

59:31 - INAUGURAL DAY, WHICH WAS ALL

59:32 - PAID FOR BY THE PEOPLE WHO

59:34 - ATTENDED.

59:34 - THERE WASN'T ANY PUBLIC MONEY

59:35 - THAT WENT INTO THAT.

59:36 - IT WAS HELD AT THE MILTON

59:38 - HERSHEY SCHOOL AND THE

59:40 - MAGNIFICENT BUILDING THERE WHERE

59:43 - IT WAS JUST UNREAL.

59:47 - JENNY AND I AND THE BOYS

59:50 - APPEARED ON THIS BALCONY.

59:52 - IT WAS REALLY IMPERIAL IN ITS

59:55 - MANNER.

59:55 - OF COURSE, ALL OF OUR FRIENDS

59:57 - AND COMPANIONS AND RELATIVES

59:58 - 296 THAT SUPPORTED US WERE THERE AND

01:00 - 01.931 CHEERING.

01:00 - 02.832 IT WAS A REALLY NICE MOMENT.

01:00 - 04.934 OF COURSE, THEN THE NEXT DAY

01:00 - 06.536 DAWNED AND WE HAD TO GET DOWN TO

01:00 - 06.836 WORK.

01:00 - 08.371 >> DURING THE TRANSITION, DID

01:00 - 09.672 YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL

01:00 - 11.975 INTERACTION WITH MILTON SHAPP?

01:00 - 12.709 >> VERY LITTLE.

01:00 - 14.577 HIS PEOPLE WERE VERY COOPERATIVE

01:00 - 16.312 IN THE TRANSITION PERIOD.

01:00 - 18.748 AND HE IS VERY GRACIOUS IN THE

01:00 - 21.784 TIME THAT I SPENT WITH HIM.

01:00 - 23.586 BUT OUR OPPORTUNITIES FOR

01:00 - 25.622 EXCHANGE, HE DIDN'T HAVE MUCH

01:00 - 27.724 THAT I WANTED TO HEAR, AND

01:00 - 28.491 CERTAINLY HE DIDN'T WANT TO

01:00 - 30.259 HEAR -- HE'D HEARD ENOUGH FROM

01:00 - 32.395 ME THROUGH THE CAMPAIGN,

01:00 - 33.329 CRITICIZING HIS ADMINISTRATION.

01:00 - 34.397 HE'S A DECENT MAN.

01:00 - 36.833 I NEVER CRITICIZED HIM

01:00 - 39.035 PERSONALLY BECAUSE HE REALLY WAS

01:00 - 39.802 DEVOTED TO PENNSYLVANIA.

01:00 - 44.774 BUT HE JUST WAS NOT WELL SERVED

01:00 - 45.842 BY THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM.

01:00 - 47.110 >> YOU INHERITED A REPUBLICAN

01:00 - 48.544 HOUSE AND A DEMOCRATIC SENATE?

01:00 - 49.178 >> YES.

01:00 - 51.814 >> HOW DID YOU BUILD BRIDGES

01:00 - 53.082 WITH THEM?

01:00 - 54.684 >> WELL, WE KNEW THAT WE WERE

01:00 - 56.252 GOING TO BE IN A MINORITY

01:00 - 59.989 POSITION IN THE SENATE.

01:00 - 03.726 AND MADE THAT EFFORT FROM THE

01:01 - 08.364 BEGINNING TO TRY TO TREAT THEM

01:01 - 09.866 CIVILLY AND NOT ENGAGE IN ANY

01:01 - 10.900 DOG AND CAT FIGHTS.

01:01 - 12.935 I THINK BY AND LARGE THAT

01:01 - 13.302 WORKED.

01:01 - 14.637 ONE OF THE MAJOR

01:01 - 16.472 DISAPPOINTMENTS, WE HAD MADE

01:01 - 18.274 SUBSTANTIAL INROADS INTO THE

01:01 - 18.975 AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY

01:01 - 23.346 DURING THE ELECTION.

01:01 - 25.281 EXIT POLLS SHOWED WE HAD AS HIGH

01:01 - 28.651 AS 58% OF THE BLACK VOTE.

01:01 - 30.119 OF COURSE, THAT HELPED

01:01 - 31.220 PARTICULARLY IN PHILADELPHIA.

01:01 - 32.221 WE ALMOST CARRIED PHILADELPHIA.

01:01 - 35.091 ONLY LOST IT BY 23,000 VOTES.

01:01 - 38.428 AND WE THOUGHT THAT HAVING HAD

01:01 - 42.031 THAT KIND OF SUPPORT FROM THE

01:01 - 43.533 AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY, THAT

01:01 - 46.803 WE COULD CONVERT THAT INTO SOME

01:01 - 48.171 EFFORTS -- COOPERATIVE EFFORTS

01:01 - 51.607 WITH THE LEADERSHIP IN THAT THE

01:01 - 55.111 BLACK CAUCUS AND OTHER GROUPS

01:01 - 57.480 LIKE THAT, AND IN PARTICULAR, IN

01:01 - 00.850 ROUNDING UP VOTES FOR OUR FIRST

01:02 - 03.219 BUDGET, RICK STAFFORD MADE A

01:02 - 04.554 MAJOR EFFORT TO TALK TO SOME OF

01:02 - 06.656 THE LEADERS IN THE BLACK CAUCUS

01:02 - 09.826 TO GET THEM TO REALLY EMPOWER

01:02 - 10.126 THEM.

01:02 - 11.661 IF THEY WERE TO PUT THAT BUDGET

01:02 - 13.863 OVER THE TOP, WE WOULD OWE THEM,

01:02 - 15.598 AND THEY WOULD HAVE ESTABLISHED

01:02 - 17.233 THEIR RELEVANCE IN A WAY THAT

01:02 - 19.368 THEY NEVER COULD DO WITHIN THE

01:02 - 20.636 DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

01:02 - 22.004 BUT THEIR PARTISAN INTERESTS

01:02 - 26.008 FINALLY WON OUT, AND THEY BECAME

01:02 - 26.409 OPPONENTS.

01:02 - 27.844 AND I ALWAYS FELT BADLY ABOUT

01:02 - 29.579 THAT BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE

01:02 - 31.047 THINGS THAT, AS I VIEW IN THE

01:02 - 32.915 REPUBLICAN PARTY, WAS VERY

01:02 - 34.784 IMPORTANT, WAS GOING BACK TO

01:02 - 38.254 ABRAHAM LINCOLN AS A CHAMPION OF

01:02 - 41.491 THE UNDERDOGS AND CERTAINLY THE

01:02 - 42.492 AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY WAS

01:02 - 44.660 THAT IN PENNSYLVANIA.

01:02 - 46.496 BUT IN GENERAL, WE TRIED TO

01:02 - 49.532 REACH OUT EVERYWHERE WE COULD.

01:02 - 52.802 WE HAD A PROCESS SET UP FOR

01:02 - 55.705 GETTING OUR GOALS IN THE

01:02 - 59.642 LEGISLATURE AND IN GENERAL.

01:02 - 05.414 WE HAD A -- I CALL THE SPOKES OF

01:03 - 07.650 THE WHEEL SET UP WHERE EACH

01:03 - 09.218 SPOKE CONTRIBUTED TO THE --

01:03 - 10.553 MAKING THE WHEEL GO.

01:03 - 12.021 THE FIRST SPOKE WAS RICK

01:03 - 13.289 STAFFORD AND THE POLICY GROUP.

01:03 - 15.825 THEY WOULD LOOK AT A PARTICULAR

01:03 - 16.959 PROBLEM FROM THE POINT OF VIEW

01:03 - 18.761 OF DESIGNING THE BEST POLICY WE

01:03 - 20.396 COULD POSSIBLY PURSUE IN SOLVING

01:03 - 22.298 THAT PROBLEM, WHETHER IT WAS

01:03 - 25.101 HIGHWAYS OR EDUCATION OR

01:03 - 26.135 ENVIRONMENTAL OR WHATEVER.

01:03 - 28.871 AND THEY WOULD DRAW ON THEIR

01:03 - 30.506 ACQUAINTANCES AND SOURCES IN THE

01:03 - 31.374 PUBLIC DOMAIN.

01:03 - 33.009 WHAT OTHER STATES HAD DONE, WHAT

01:03 - 34.043 THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS

01:03 - 34.343 DOING.

01:03 - 39.882 COME UP WITH A PURE POLICY

01:03 - 40.249 SOLUTION.

01:03 - 41.818 IT WOULD MOVE FROM THERE TO THE

01:03 - 43.953 LEGAL, TO THE GENERAL COUNSEL'S

01:03 - 44.287 OFFICE.

01:03 - 46.556 WAY WALDMAN WAS OUR GENERAL

01:03 - 46.923 COUNSEL.

01:03 - 48.858 HE AND HIS STAFF WOULD LOOK AT

01:03 - 50.593 IT, ARE THERE CONSTITUTIONAL

01:03 - 50.993 PROBLEMS?

01:03 - 51.961 ARE THERE LAWS ALREADY ON THE

01:03 - 53.396 BOOKS THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE

01:03 - 55.932 REPEALED OR ARE THERE NEW LAWS

01:03 - 57.366 THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED.

01:03 - 02.004 ARE THOSE LAWS ACCEPTABLE TO AN

01:04 - 02.972 ADMINISTRATION THAT WAS JUST

01:04 - 04.740 GETTING OFF THE GROUND?

01:04 - 05.842 THE THIRD SPOKE OF THE WHEEL

01:04 - 08.711 THAT WE WOULD GO TO WOULD BE

01:04 - 09.045 BUDGET.

01:04 - 10.746 HOW MUCH IS THIS GOING TO COST?

01:04 - 12.682 IS THE MONEY GOING TO BE THERE?

01:04 - 14.217 ARE THERE NEW SOURCES OF REVENUE

01:04 - 16.052 THAT CAN BE REALIZED FROM THIS

01:04 - 16.586 INITIATIVE.

01:04 - 20.623 OR IS IT GOING TO REQUIRE MOVING

01:04 - 21.757 MONEY AROUND.

01:04 - 24.393 THAT WAS BOB WILLBURN'S

01:04 - 27.663 SECRETARY OF BUDGET

01:04 - 28.464 ADMINISTRATION'S RESPONSIBILITY.

01:04 - 29.899 THE NEXT SPOKE IN THE WHEEL WE'D

01:04 - 31.400 LOOK AT WOULD BE THE MEDIA.

01:04 - 33.002 HOW IS THE MEDIA GOING TO REACT

01:04 - 33.436 TO THIS.

01:04 - 36.038 DO WE HAVE A CHANCE TO DEVELOP

01:04 - 37.640 SUPPORT HERE FROM THE MEDIA AND

01:04 - 39.942 GET A FULL HEAD OF STEAM UP ON

01:04 - 40.743 THIS INITIATIVE.

01:04 - 43.613 AND SEE IF WE CAN'T MOVE IT THAT

01:04 - 43.913 WAY.

01:04 - 48.150 AND THAT WOULD BE PAUL

01:04 - 48.751 CRICHLOW'S JOB.

01:04 - 50.586 AND THEN THE FINAL HURDLE TO

01:04 - 51.721 OVERCOME FOR ANY POLICY

01:04 - 54.090 INITIATIVE WAS THE POLITICAL.

01:04 - 54.924 PURELY POLITICAL.

01:04 - 56.459 HOW ARE OUR OPPONENTS GOING TO

01:04 - 58.261 REACT TO THIS?

01:04 - 00.096 HOW ARE OUR SUPPORTERS GOING TO

01:05 - 00.396 REACT.

01:05 - 01.831 PEOPLE WHO GAVE SUBSTANTIAL

01:05 - 02.765 AMOUNTS OF MONEY GOING TO BE

01:05 - 04.066 OFFENDED BY A PARTICULAR THING.

01:05 - 06.068 IF SO, DO WE CARE?

01:05 - 07.870 AND THEN IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS,

01:05 - 09.372 THAT WOULD BE THE PACKAGE THAT

01:05 - 12.241 WOULD COME TO ME WITH THESE

01:05 - 12.708 RECOMMENDATIONS.

01:05 - 14.543 IT WORKED LIKE CLOCKWORK.

01:05 - 18.314 WE DIDN'T DO IT ON EVERY SINGLE

01:05 - 18.648 ISSUE.

01:05 - 20.483 SOME OF THE THINGS WERE

01:05 - 20.917 SELF-EVIDENT.

01:05 - 22.118 MOST OF THE ISSUES WE HAD TO

01:05 - 25.888 DEAL WITH STUCK TO THAT

01:05 - 26.255 REGIMENT.

01:05 - 29.025 >> WHAT DID THEY CUT SPENDING

01:05 - 29.392 ON?

01:05 - 33.195 >> WE CUT SPENDING PRIMARILY BY

01:05 - 35.564 REDUCING THE STATE PAYROLL.

01:05 - 37.500 WHEN YOU CUT 15,000 UNNECESSARY

01:05 - 39.835 JOBS OUT OF A PAYROLL THAT HAS

01:05 - 42.538 100,000 TOTAL JOBS, THAT'S A 15%

01:05 - 46.409 ACROSS THE BOARD CUT.

01:05 - 48.811 IN THE MAJOR EXPENDITURES THAT

01:05 - 49.578 THE STATE MAKES.

01:05 - 50.947 THE NEXT THING WE DID WAS

01:05 - 53.316 COMMISSION A COST-CUTTING TASK

01:05 - 55.251 FORCE WHICH WAS HEADED BY THE

01:05 - 00.856 SECRETARY OF LABOR -- GENERAL

01:06 - 02.325 SERVICES SECRETARY, WALLY BARRON

01:06 - 03.559 WHO WAS A BUSINESSMAN.

01:06 - 05.328 HE HAD A BUSINESSMAN'S INSTINCT

01:06 - 07.430 FOR LOOKING AT COST PROBLEMS.

01:06 - 10.967 AND HIS TASK FORCE OVER THE

01:06 - 14.203 EIGHT YEARS WE WERE IN OFFICE,

01:06 - 17.840 FINALLY IDENTIFIED $6.5 BILLION

01:06 - 19.608 IN COST SAVINGS THAT COULD BE

01:06 - 23.479 MADE AND WERE MADE BY HE AND HIS

01:06 - 23.879 COLLEAGUES.

01:06 - 24.981 AND EVERYBODY WAS UNDER ORDERS

01:06 - 26.949 FROM ME TO PITCH IN TO THIS

01:06 - 27.283 EFFORT.

01:06 - 28.951 AND IT WOULD BE SIMPLEt( THINGS

01:06 - 31.787 LIKE REDUCING THE SIZE OF THE

01:06 - 35.491 STATE'S AUTOMOBILE FLEET OR

01:06 - 38.461 SOMETHING SIZABLE LIKE WELFARE

01:06 - 38.794 REFORM.

01:06 - 41.464 IT RAN THE GAMUT.

01:06 - 43.632 AND THAT'S $6 BILLION, $6.5

01:06 - 45.534 BILLION IN -- THAT WAS THE

01:06 - 47.536 EQUIVALENT OF SAVING $2 MILLION

01:06 - 49.105 A DAY EVERY SINGLE DAY DURING

01:06 - 51.207 THE EIGHT YEARS WE WERE IN

01:06 - 51.540 OFFICE.

01:06 - 53.909 SO THAT MADE A BIG DIFFERENCE.

01:06 - 57.279 AND I THINK THAT IN THE FINAL

01:06 - 59.448 ANALYSIS, THAT GOT PEOPLE'S

01:06 - 00.616 ATTENTION BECAUSE WE SAID WE

01:07 - 04.286 WEREN'T GOING TO RAISE TAXES.

01:07 - 06.889 AND SAVE FOR A TEMPORARY TAX PUT

01:07 - 11.160 ON DURING THE KEEP THROWS, WE

01:07 - 16.732 ENDED UP WITH LOWER TAXES FOR

01:07 - 17.133 BUSINESSES.

01:07 - 18.534 AND WE TURNED A DEFICIT INTO --

01:07 - 21.737 I LEFT WITH A $350 MILLION

01:07 - 24.240 SURPLUS FOR MY SUCCESSOR.

01:07 - 27.510 WE REDUCED THE STATE'S

01:07 - 28.811 INDEBTEDNESS BY $3 MILLION WHICH

01:07 - 29.979 SAVED ON INTEREST CHARGES AND

01:07 - 31.881 UPPED OUR CREDIT RATING WHICH

01:07 - 32.615 ENABLED US TO GET BETTER

01:07 - 34.383 INTEREST RATES ON THE LOANS THAT

01:07 - 35.484 WE DID TAKE.

01:07 - 36.886 WE ESTABLISHED THE FIRST STATE

01:07 - 37.720 RAINY DAY FUND.

01:07 - 39.021 ALL OF THESE THINGS WERE

01:07 - 41.524 DESIGNED TO SEND A MESSAGE THAT

01:07 - 42.825 WE WERE SERIOUS ABOUT THE

01:07 - 44.393 BUSINESS OF GOVERNING.

01:07 - 46.695 THIS WASN'T JUST SOME POLITICAL

01:07 - 47.163 EXERCISE.

01:07 - 51.200 IT WAS A MANAGEMENT EXERCISE IN

01:07 - 53.035 RUNNING A STATE IN AS MODEL A

01:07 - 54.370 WAY AS WE COULD.

01:07 - 56.439 WE HAD A LOT OF SETBACKS AS

01:07 - 56.739 WELL.

01:07 - 00.242 BUT I THINK IN THE FINAL

01:08 - 02.178 ANALYSIS, THE READING WAS GOOD.

01:08 - 06.449 AND EVEN THE DEMOCRATS IN THEIR

01:08 - 07.983 LAST POLL FOUND THAT WE ARE --

01:08 - 09.685 OUR ADMINISTRATION HAD A 72%

01:08 - 11.253 APPROVAL RATING.

01:08 - 14.857 SO MISSION WAS ACCOMPLISHED.

01:08 - 16.525 >> ISSUES THAT THE DEMOCRATIC

01:08 - 18.461 SENATE DUG IN THEIR HEELS ON AND

01:08 - 19.095 WOULDN'T BUDGE?

01:08 - 21.664 >> MOSTLY THEY HAD TO DO WITH

01:08 - 22.098 APPOINTMENTS.

01:08 - 25.835 WE COULDN'T GET A CHAIRMAN OF

01:08 - 28.270 THE LIQUOR CONTROL BOARD OR THE

01:08 - 29.004 TURNPIKE COMMISSION.

01:08 - 31.607 THOSE WERE TWO OF THE REQUIRED

01:08 - 32.875 THREE-FIFTHS VOTES.

01:08 - 34.677 FIRST TWO YEARS WE HAD A SPLIT.

01:08 - 35.478 SECOND TWO YEARS, THE

01:08 - 37.279 REPUBLICANS CONTROLLED BOTH

01:08 - 37.613 HOUSES.

01:08 - 39.448 THE BALANCE OF THE TIME I WAS IN

01:08 - 40.449 OFFICE, THE DEMOCRATS CONTROL

01:08 - 42.551 THE HOUSE AND WE CONTROL THE

01:08 - 42.885 SENATE.

01:08 - 46.288 SO IT WAS A KIND OF SHIFTING

01:08 - 47.990 SITUATION WE HAD TO DEAL WITH.

01:08 - 50.326 BUT WE WERE NEVER ABLE TO GET

01:08 - 52.394 THE REQUISITE NUMBER OF

01:08 - 54.730 THREE-FIFTHS VOTES TO GET KEY

01:08 - 55.498 APPOINTMENTS MADE.

01:08 - 57.199 THAT MEANT THE LIQUOR BOARD, ONE

01:08 - 00.136 OF MY FAVORITES, AND THE

01:09 - 02.104 TURNPIKE COMMISSION, THAT REALLY

01:09 - 02.972 WAS UNNECESSARY.

01:09 - 04.874 THOSE WERE TWO OF MY MAJOR

01:09 - 06.809 FAILURES, IF YOU WANT TO PUT IT

01:09 - 07.510 THAT.

01:09 - 09.545 WOODROW WILSON WHEN HE WAS

01:09 - 11.814 PRESIDENT SAID HE WOULD RATHER

01:09 - 13.849 FAIL IN A CAUSE THAT WILL SOME

01:09 - 14.917 DAY TRIUMPH THAN TRIUMPH IN A

01:09 - 16.852 CAUSE THAT WILL SOME DAY FAIL.

01:09 - 19.788 AND WHEN I LOOK BACK AT THE

01:09 - 21.891 FAILURES THAT WE HAD, FAILURE TO

01:09 - 24.126 CONVERT THE LIQUOR STORES INTO

01:09 - 25.461 PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, THE FAILURE

01:09 - 27.463 TO GET RID OF THE TURNPIKE

01:09 - 29.031 COMMISSION, THE FAILURE TO GET

01:09 - 31.467 MERIT PAY FOR TEACHERS AND TO

01:09 - 35.771 HAVE OUR JUDGES SELECTED IN A

01:09 - 37.406 NONPARTISAN, NONPOLITICAL WAY, I

01:09 - 39.108 MEAN, THOSE ARE THINGS I WAS

01:09 - 40.943 PROUD TO BE IN THE BATTLE FOR

01:09 - 42.678 THOSE CAUSES.

01:09 - 44.079 THEY HAVEN'T TRIUMPHED YET

01:09 - 46.081 DOESN'T MEAN THEY WON'T SOME

01:09 - 46.382 DAY.

01:09 - 47.316 >> WHY COULDN'T YOU GET RID OF

01:09 - 49.785 THE TURNPIKE COMMISSION?

01:09 - 52.955 >> TOO MANY JOBS INVOLVED THERE.

01:09 - 56.692 PATRONAGE AND PEOPLE --

01:09 - 57.459 CONTRACTS.

01:09 - 58.794 THEY WERE JUST VESTED INTERESTS.

01:09 - 00.696 AND TO THIS DAY ISEE NO NEED FOR

01:10 - 02.665 THE TURNPIKE COMMISSION.

01:10 - 04.500 THE TURNPIKE COMMISSION OUGHT TO

01:10 - 06.368 BE PART OF PENNDOT.

01:10 - 07.303 SAVINGS THAT WOULD RESULT.

01:10 - 08.971 AND JUST SIMPLY HAVING AN

01:10 - 09.805 INTEGRATED HIGHWAY SYSTEM WOULD

01:10 - 12.441 BE -- MAKE MORE SENSE TO ME, BUT

01:10 - 14.210 THERE WERE A LOT OF INTERESTS

01:10 - 15.477 THERE AND THE FINANCING,

01:10 - 16.812 FINANCIAL COMMUNITY.

01:10 - 19.381 IT WASN'T ALL POLITICIANS.

01:10 - 21.650 IT WAS THE -- WHAT THEY USED TO

01:10 - 23.819 CALL PINSTRIPE PATRONAGE AS

01:10 - 24.119 WELL.

01:10 - 26.055 >> AND THE STATE LIQUOR STORES?

01:10 - 28.791 >> PUBLIC EMPLOYEE UNIONS.

01:10 - 31.026 THE RETAIL CLERKS.

01:10 - 32.394 WENDELL YOUNG AND HIS OPERATIVES

01:10 - 36.899 THAT WERE VERY EFFECTIVE IN

01:10 - 37.533 FRUSTRAFTING US THERE.

01:10 - 39.101 IT WAS AN ODD COALITION.

01:10 - 42.738 THERE WERE A LOT OF DRIES STILL

01:10 - 44.406 LEFT OVER IN PENNSYLVANIA LEFT

01:10 - 46.475 OVER FROM PROHIBITION.

01:10 - 46.775 WCTU.

01:10 - 48.544 AND THEN MOTHERS AGAINST DRUNK

01:10 - 52.281 DRIVING AND OTHER GROUPS THAT

01:10 - 54.650 SAW THAT ALCOHOL USE WOULD

01:10 - 56.785 INCREASE IF WE HAD PRIVATE

01:10 - 57.119 STORES.

01:10 - 58.287 NOBODY EVER MADE THAT CASE

01:10 - 59.588 SUCCESSFULLY BUT THAT WAS THE

01:10 - 01.156 ARGUMENT THAT THEY USED.

01:11 - 03.325 AND FOR ONE BRIEF INTERVAL WE

01:11 - 04.460 DID GET RID OF THE LIQUOR

01:11 - 04.793 STORES.

01:11 - 06.662 THE SUNSET LAWS PUT THEM OUT OF

01:11 - 10.733 BUSINESS ON DECEMBER 1st OF

01:11 - 17.406 1970 -- 1980 -- LET'S SEE.

01:11 - 17.973 1986.

01:11 - 20.276 AND WE IMMEDIATELY ISSUED AN

01:11 - 21.577 EXECUTIVE ORDER PRIVATIZING THE

01:11 - 24.713 STATE LIQUOR STORES USED IN AN

01:11 - 25.814 EXECUTIVE ORDER PUTTING ALL THE

01:11 - 27.483 STUFF WE HAD IN THE LEGISLATION

01:11 - 28.817 WE HAD TRIED AND NOT BEEN ABLE

01:11 - 29.918 TO GET PAST.

01:11 - 31.420 AND I WENT AROUND THE STATE.

01:11 - 33.155 WE HAD A BIG PRESS CONFERENCE.

01:11 - 34.523 I WENT AROUND THE STATE WITH A

01:11 - 36.125 BIG FOR SALE SIGN ON ALL THE

01:11 - 38.093 LIQUOR STORES IN THE MAJOR

01:11 - 38.627 INDUSTRIAL AREAS.

01:11 - 41.830 OF COURSE, PEOPLE WERE

01:11 - 43.799 ABSOLUTELY DELIGHTED.

01:11 - 45.734 ONE CONSOLATION, ONE OF THE

01:11 - 47.503 EDITORIAL WRITERS SAID AFTER WE

01:11 - 50.506 STUBBED OUR TOE IN THAT EFFORT

01:11 - 52.574 THAT POINT OF FACT, YOU DO GET

01:11 - 54.643 BETTER SERVICE IN THE STATE

01:11 - 55.177 LIQUOR STORES.

01:11 - 56.712 THEY USED NOT TO BE ABLE TO GO

01:11 - 57.946 BACK ON THE STACKS.

01:11 - 01.150 THEY WERE PROHIBITED FROM GROIFG

01:12 - 02.918 ADVICE ABOUT WHAT KIND OF WINES

01:12 - 03.919 YOU SHOULD HAVE USED.

01:12 - 04.920 THERE WERE NO CREDIT CARDS.

01:12 - 07.056 THEY WERE TOTALLY UNATTRACTIVE

01:12 - 08.490 AND REPULSIVE SETTINGS.

01:12 - 10.559 THEY WERE NOT DESIGNED, EVEN

01:12 - 13.729 INCREASE THE STATE REVENUE.

01:12 - 14.930 WE TOOK SOME COMFORT IN THAT.

01:12 - 16.765 >> YOU REMEMBER THE MOMENT WHEN

01:12 - 18.934 YOUR GROUP WAS SITTING AROUND

01:12 - 20.469 AND SAID THIS PRIVATIZATION OF

01:12 - 21.770 THE LIQUOR STORES IS NOT GOING

01:12 - 22.438 TO HAPPEN.

01:12 - 24.206 LET'S THROW IN THE TOWEL AND

01:12 - 25.674 TURN OUR ATTENTION.

01:12 - 27.676 >> HE NEVER DID THROW IN THE

01:12 - 28.210 TOWEL.

01:12 - 29.311 OCCUPIED LOWER PRIORITY.

01:12 - 31.046 BUT I BRING IT UP ALL THE TIME.

01:12 - 33.582 AS I SAID, WE DID HAVE OUR PREV

01:12 - 35.351 SHINING MOMENT WHICH ENDED WHEN

01:12 - 37.753 GOVERNOR BOB CASEY CAME IN AND

01:12 - 40.456 VACATED THE EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT

01:12 - 41.990 I ISSUED.

01:12 - 43.192 WELFARE REFORM WAS ANOTHER ONE

01:12 - 44.093 YOU MENTIONED.

01:12 - 46.061 >> WELFARE REFORM WAS A SUCCESS.

01:12 - 50.432 AND IT ANTICIPATED BY SOME 15

01:12 - 52.334 YEARS OR SO WHAT WAS EVENTUALLY

01:12 - 55.104 DONE AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

01:12 - 59.308 WE HAD A SITUATION WHERE WITH 5%

01:12 - 02.244 OF THE NATION'S POPULATION, WE

01:13 - 05.781 HAD 20% OF THE NATION'S GENERAL

01:13 - 07.883 ASSISTANCE WELFARE POPULATION.

01:13 - 09.385 PEOPLE WERE ACTUALLY MOVING INTO

01:13 - 12.688 OUR STATE TO GET ON WELFARE.

01:13 - 16.058 AND WE MADE THE POINT EVENTUALLY

01:13 - 20.195 SUCCESSFULLY THAT IT WAS NOT

01:13 - 21.997 PROPER TO TAKE WELFARE

01:13 - 23.232 APPROPRIATIONS THAT WERE MEANT

01:13 - 26.602 TO HELP PEOPLE IN TRUE NEED.

01:13 - 28.504 AND MAKE THOSE PAYMENTS TO

01:13 - 30.139 SINGLE ABLE-BODIED PERSONS WHO

01:13 - 32.908 WERE ABLE TO WORK.

01:13 - 34.676 THIS HAD NO EFFECT ON PEOPLE

01:13 - 35.544 WITH DISABILITY.

01:13 - 37.346 NO EFFECT ON THE ELDERLY.

01:13 - 40.649 NO EFFECT ON PEOPLE WHO HAD

01:13 - 42.017 OTHER PROBLEMS THAT PREVENTED

01:13 - 43.085 THEM FROM WORKING.

01:13 - 45.721 BUT IT WAS DESIGNED TO CLEAN THE

01:13 - 47.689 ROLES IN TERMS OF PEOPLE WHO

01:13 - 49.258 WERE ABLE TO WORK AND SIMPLY

01:13 - 51.326 WEREN'T WORKING.

01:13 - 55.364 WE HAD A LIMITED WORK FAIR

01:13 - 56.832 COMPONENT THAT DID SOME GOOD

01:13 - 59.334 THINGS AROUND THE STATE.

01:13 - 01.437 BUT WAS VIOLENTLY OPPOSED BY THE

01:14 - 02.304 LABOR UNIONS.

01:14 - 03.939 VIOLENTLY OPPOSED IN THE

01:14 - 06.575 AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

01:14 - 09.278 BUT IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS,

01:14 - 11.880 NOBODY EVER ATTEMPTED TO UNDO

01:14 - 15.017 THAT REFORM THROUGH LEGISLATIVE

01:14 - 15.417 AMENDMENT.

01:14 - 16.885 SO IT WORKED.

01:14 - 20.255 AND THE MONEY THAT WAS SAVED BY

01:14 - 22.791 GETTING THOSE PEOPLE OFF OF THE

01:14 - 26.161 WELFARE ROLLS PROVIDED FOR FOUR

01:14 - 27.629 SEPARATE INCREASES IN THE LEVEL

01:14 - 29.431 OF PAYMENTS TO THE TRULY NEEDY

01:14 - 32.167 PEOPLE WHO HAD NO OTHER SOURCE

01:14 - 34.403 THAN WELFARE PAYMENTS.

01:14 - 38.207 SO IT GOT A LOT OF PEOPLE'S

01:14 - 40.442 ATTENTION BUT IT ALSO BECAME A

01:14 - 43.045 FLASH POINT FOR CRITICISM.

01:14 - 44.413 THORN FAIR THEY CALLED IT.

01:14 - 45.814 AND I DIDN'T QUITE KNOW WHETHER

01:14 - 48.183 THAT WAS MEANT AS A COMPLIMENT

01:14 - 49.818 OR NOT.

01:14 - 51.186 >> YOUR ISSUE DURING THE

01:14 - 52.754 CAMPAIGN WAS CORRUPTION IN STATE

01:14 - 53.155 GOVERNMENT.

01:14 - 54.556 WHAT DID YOU DO ABOUT THAT?

01:14 - 56.158 >> WELL, WE ESTABLISHED A CODE

01:14 - 59.228 OF CONDUCT FOR ALL STATE

01:14 - 59.828 EMPLOYEES.

01:14 - 02.731 CREATED THE OFFICE OF INSPECTOR

01:15 - 05.767 GENERAL TO ROOT OUT CORRUPTION.

01:15 - 07.736 AND ESTABLISH THROUGH THE

01:15 - 08.704 ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE, WHICH

01:15 - 10.606 WAS PART OF THE ADMINISTRATION

01:15 - 14.376 FOR THE FIRST TWO YEARS AND

01:15 - 15.277 THEREAFTER WITH ATTORNEY GENERAL

01:15 - 18.113 LEROY ZIMMERMAN A COOPERATIVE

01:15 - 19.648 RELATIONSHIP RATHER THAN

01:15 - 20.449 ADVERSARY RELATIONSHIP WHEN IT

01:15 - 21.917 CAME TO ROOTING OUT CORRUPTION.

01:15 - 26.889 AND I THINK IT CHANGED THE TENOR

01:15 - 29.725 OF THE ATMOSPHERE.

01:15 - 33.328 WE DID HAVE SOME SERIOUS ISSUES

01:15 - 34.630 OF CORRUPTION IN GOVERNMENT BUT

01:15 - 38.367 THEY WERE NOT IN OUR

01:15 - 38.834 ADMINISTRATION.

01:15 - 42.905 THE STATE BUD DWYER, STATE

01:15 - 44.339 TREASURER, WAS CONVICTED OF

01:15 - 45.841 CRIMES RELATING TO FINANCIAL

01:15 - 46.208 FRAUD.

01:15 - 49.478 TOOK HIS OWN LIFE, SADLY.

01:15 - 52.915 AND THERE WERE OTHER INCIDENTS.

01:15 - 55.250 BUT I THINK BY AND LARGE, WE DID

01:15 - 57.286 BRING AN END TO WHAT HAD BEEN

01:15 - 00.689 STYLED AS AN ERA OF CORRUPTION.

01:16 - 02.558 AND THAT, I THINK, WAS SOMETHING

01:16 - 03.492 TO BE PROUD OF.

01:16 - 05.260 >> DID YOU HAVE ANY SITUATIONS

01:16 - 06.228 AMONG YOUR OWN PEOPLE WHERE

01:16 - 08.397 THERE WERE ALLEGATIONS OR

01:16 - 09.498 SUSPICIONS YOU HAD THAT THEY

01:16 - 10.866 WERE DOING THINGS THE WAY YOU

01:16 - 14.069 DIDN'T WANT THEM AND YOU HAD TO

01:16 - 14.836 ROOT THEM OUT?

01:16 - 17.339 >> WELL, I MADE SOME MISTAKES IN

01:16 - 17.706 CABINET.

01:16 - 19.608 I DON'T THINK IT'S FRUITFUL TO

01:16 - 21.109 REVIEW THEM ONE BY ONE, BUT LET

01:16 - 21.777 ME SAY THIS.

01:16 - 24.413 I THINK THE MISTAKES THAT I MADE

01:16 - 26.315 WERE THE SAME MISTAKES THAT I

01:16 - 27.816 MADE IN OTHER POSITIONS I'D

01:16 - 28.116 HELD.

01:16 - 32.721 I HIRED A RESUME RATHER THAN A

01:16 - 33.055 PERSON.

01:16 - 35.824 AND THAT SADDLED ME WITH SOME

01:16 - 36.858 PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T TEAM PLAYERS

01:16 - 38.427 OR DIDN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO

01:16 - 41.897 RELATE TO THE TASK WE HAD TO GET

01:16 - 42.197 DONE.

01:16 - 45.934 AND WE CUT OUR LOSSES VERY EARLY

01:16 - 46.935 ON THOSE THINGS.

01:16 - 49.004 SO THAT WAS, I THINK, BY AND

01:16 - 51.406 LARGE, I SAY WE BATTED ABOUT 75%

01:16 - 52.774 ON THE QUALITY OF PEOPLE WE

01:16 - 53.675 BROUGHT IN TO GOVERNMENT.

01:16 - 56.311 YOU ARE INEVITABLY GOING TO HAVE

01:16 - 58.680 SOME MISTAKES AND FAILURES, BUT

01:16 - 00.215 YOU JUST HAVE TO LIVE WITH

01:17 - 00.515 THOSE.

01:17 - 02.117 >> HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN

01:17 - 04.319 GOVERNOR WHEN THREE MILE ISLAND

01:17 - 04.686 HAPPENED?

01:17 - 07.356 >> 72 DAYS INTO MY FIRST TERM AS

01:17 - 09.958 GOVERNOR, I GOT A PHONE CALL

01:17 - 12.761 FROM OUR DIRECTOR OF EMERGENCY

01:17 - 13.762 MANAGEMENT TELLING ME THAT THERE

01:17 - 15.731 HAD BEEN AN ACCIDENT AT THE

01:17 - 18.400 THREE MILE ISLAND NUCLEAR PLANT.

01:17 - 21.403 I KNEW WHERE THE PLANT WAS, BUT

01:17 - 23.038 PRECIOUS LITTLE BEYOND THAT.

01:17 - 26.174 AND THAT BEGAN A TEN-DAY PERIOD

01:17 - 27.943 OF REAL CRISIS.

01:17 - 30.012 AND CREATED ISSUES THAT WE HAD

01:17 - 31.046 TO DEAL WITH THROUGHOUT THE

01:17 - 33.281 BALANCE OF MY EIGHT YEARS IN

01:17 - 33.615 OFFICE.

01:17 - 34.983 >> WHEN YOU GOT THAT PHONE CALL,

01:17 - 38.120 WHAT DID YOU DO?

01:17 - 41.123 >> I WAS, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH,

01:17 - 43.892 HOSTING A BREAKFAST AT THE

01:17 - 45.360 GOVERNOR'S RESIDENCE FOR

01:17 - 46.561 FRESHMAN DEMOCRATS, TRYING TO

01:17 - 48.030 BUILD UP SUPPORT FOR THE BUDGET

01:17 - 49.131 I'D JUST PRESENTED TO THE

01:17 - 51.333 GENERAL ASSEMBLY A WEEK BEFORE.

01:17 - 54.169 SO I WENT BACK AND FINISHED MY

01:17 - 58.306 BREAKFAST AFTER CALLING PAUL

01:17 - 01.043 CRICHLOW, MY PRESS SECRETARY AND

01:18 - 02.477 WALDMAN, MY CHIEF OF STAFF,

01:18 - 03.712 ALERTING THEM TO WHAT HAPPENED.

01:18 - 06.982 BUT FROM THAT POINT ON, WE WERE

01:18 - 09.418 FOCUSED LIKE A LASER BEAM ON

01:18 - 12.988 GETTING THE FACTS BECAUSE THE

01:18 - 16.925 BIGGEST FAILURE IN HANDLING ANY

01:18 - 19.895 KIND OF EMERGENCY IS AN

01:18 - 20.862 INABILITY TO DETERMINE WHAT'S

01:18 - 24.066 GOING ON SO THAT YOU CAN FASHION

01:18 - 28.070 AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE.

01:18 - 29.471 AND ONCE SOMEBODY SAYS, WHETHER

01:18 - 30.772 YOU ARE A LITTLE LEAGUE MANAGER

01:18 - 32.774 OR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED

01:18 - 35.811 STATES, YOUR ABILITY TO HANDLE

01:18 - 37.212 ANY SITUATION IS DEPENDENT ON

01:18 - 38.246 THE QUALITY OF THE FACTS THAT

01:18 - 39.014 YOU HAVE.

01:18 - 40.348 IF YOU HAVE BAD INFORMATION, YOU

01:18 - 42.884 ARE GOING TO MAKE BAD DECISIONS.

01:18 - 44.586 AND WE FOUND THAT OUT IN THE

01:18 - 48.423 VERY FIRST DAY OF THE TMI

01:18 - 48.824 ACCIDENT.

01:18 - 51.259 WE WERE TOLD BY THE UTILITY,

01:18 - 54.329 WHICH WE NAIVELY ACCEPTED AS THE

01:18 - 56.064 TRUTH, THAT, AS I RECALL, THEY

01:18 - 57.499 SAID ALL SYSTEMS HAD FUNCTIONED

01:18 - 59.234 AND THE DANGER HAD PASSED.

01:18 - 00.569 AND BILL SCRANTON, THE

01:19 - 01.503 LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, WENT OUT

01:19 - 03.538 AND HELD A PRESS CONFERENCE AND

01:19 - 04.806 SAID JUST THAT.

01:19 - 06.174 WELL, WITHIN AN HOUR, WE

01:19 - 07.342 DETERMINED THAT THEY SIMPLY HAD

01:19 - 08.276 LIED TO US.

01:19 - 11.813 THEY HAD MISREPRESENTED THAT ALL

01:19 - 13.181 SYSTEMS HAD NOT WORKED PROPERLY

01:19 - 14.850 AND THE DANGER CERTAINLY HAD NOT

01:19 - 15.183 PASSED.

01:19 - 16.384 SO WE MADE A VERY IMPORTANT

01:19 - 17.552 DECISION AT THAT TIME AND THAT

01:19 - 19.187 WAS BILL SCRANTON WAS TO HOLD A

01:19 - 20.522 SECOND PRESS CONFERENCE AND GO

01:19 - 22.090 OUT, WELL, WHAT WE WERE TOLD IS

01:19 - 24.159 NOT ACCURATE.

01:19 - 24.926 AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO

01:19 - 26.661 TRY TO GET THE FACTS.

01:19 - 28.396 AND PEOPLE AREN'T USED TO SEEING

01:19 - 29.865 PUBLIC OFFICIALS COME OUT AND

01:19 - 32.067 SAY WE MISINFORMED YOU OR MADE A

01:19 - 32.434 MISTAKE.

01:19 - 34.136 SO IT WORKED TO OUR ADVANTAGE IN

01:19 - 36.104 THE LONG RUN BUT IT WAS VERY

01:19 - 37.105 FRUSTRATING DURING THE FIRST

01:19 - 38.874 COUPLE OF DAYS AFTER THE

01:19 - 39.407 ACCIDENT.

01:19 - 42.744 YOU WOULD GET ALL KINDS OF

01:19 - 43.578 SELF-APPOINTED EXPERTS WHO

01:19 - 44.846 THOUGHT THEY HAD ANSWERS FOR YOU

01:19 - 46.314 AND PEOPLE WOULD TELL YOU MORE

01:19 - 49.117 THAN THEY KNOW OR LESS THAN THEY

01:19 - 49.451 KNOW.

01:19 - 52.420 AND IT REQUIRED SOME REAL

01:19 - 53.855 PATIENCE AND PERSISTENCE TO DIG

01:19 - 55.390 AT THESE PEOPLE AND GET THE

01:19 - 55.690 FACTS.

01:19 - 58.260 AND ACTUALLY NEVER REALLY

01:19 - 01.530 RESOLVED ITSELF UNTIL, AT MY

01:20 - 02.764 REQUEST, PRESIDENT CARTER SENT

01:20 - 05.200 HAROLD DENTON TO HARRISBURG AS

01:20 - 06.735 HIS REPRESENTATIVE.

01:20 - 08.436 AND WHO PROVIDED A RELIABLE

01:20 - 10.438 SOURCE OF INFORMATION FOR US.

01:20 - 12.407 HE WAS THE TRUE HERO OF THE

01:20 - 16.545 THREE MILE ISLAND ACCIDENT.

01:20 - 21.550 HE WAS -- HE HAD AN EASY GOING

01:20 - 23.451 WAY AROUND HIM.

01:20 - 25.554 BUT HE HAD THE ABILITY TO

01:20 - 27.689 CONVERT NUCLEAR JARGON INTO

01:20 - 30.025 PLAIN ENGLISH, AND THAT APPEALED

01:20 - 38.834 TO ME AND IT APPEALED TO --

01:20 - 40.468 >> HOW SOON AFTER YOU GOT THE

01:20 - 41.736 PHONE CALL THAT SAID THERE WAS A

01:20 - 44.039 PROBLEM DID YOU REALIZE IT WAS

01:20 - 44.539 PRETTY SERIOUS?

01:20 - 46.808 >> I REALIZED IMMEDIATELY THAT

01:20 - 50.178 ANY ACCIDENT AT A NUCLEAR

01:20 - 54.583 FACILITY HAS A SERIOUS MATTER.

01:20 - 56.818 THE QUESTION ALWAYS PRESENTS

01:20 - 00.155 ITSELF AS WE HEARD MOST RECENTLY

01:21 - 02.190 FROM THE JAPANESE EXPERIENCE IS

01:21 - 03.491 WHAT YOUR RESPONSE IS GOING TO

01:21 - 03.758 BE.

01:21 - 05.260 DO YOU ORDER A GENERAL

01:21 - 08.930 EVACUATION OF THE AREA, SAY, TEN

01:21 - 11.032 MILES, 15 MILES, AND THERE WERE

01:21 - 12.167 THOSE WHO COUNSELED THAT.

01:21 - 13.602 BUT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MOVING

01:21 - 16.271 A QUARTER OF A MILLION PEOPLE,

01:21 - 21.309 AND MANY OF THEM WITH REAL

01:21 - 23.445 DISABILITIES OR IN HOSPITALS,

01:21 - 29.651 EMERGENCY ROOMS, BABIES IN

01:21 - 30.452 PREMATURE BABY.

01:21 - 32.320 AND NOT TO MENTION THE HIGHWAY

01:21 - 33.855 JAMS THAT MIGHT RESULT.

01:21 - 35.724 SO WE WERE DETERMINED NOT TO

01:21 - 37.626 ORDER A GERM EVACUATION UNLESS

01:21 - 39.294 WE WERE ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED

01:21 - 40.996 THAT THAT WAS NECESSARY.

01:21 - 42.397 NOW A LOT OF PEOPLE LEFT THE

01:21 - 45.300 AREA ON THEIR OWN, AND THAT, OF

01:21 - 46.434 COURSE, WAS A SAVING GRACE

01:21 - 51.973 BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT GOING

01:21 - 53.108 HELTER-SKELTER OUT OF THE AREA.

01:21 - 55.844 THEY WERE FOLLOWING THEIR OWN

01:21 - 56.177 AGENDA.

01:21 - 57.178 THE MATTER OF HOW THESE THINGS

01:21 - 00.815 ARE HANDLED WAS BROUGHT HOME TO

01:22 - 01.082 ME.

01:22 - 03.051 BOB WILLBURN, AGAIN, ONE OF MY

01:22 - 04.786 TOP AIDES, I ASKED ON THE DAY OF

01:22 - 05.453 THE ACCIDENT.

01:22 - 08.456 I SAID, GO TALK TO THE PEOPLE IN

01:22 - 11.293 DAUPHIN COUNTY AND CUMBERLAND

01:22 - 12.994 COUNTY, OR SURROUNDING COUNTIES

01:22 - 14.429 AND SAY WHAT -- HOW THE

01:22 - 15.330 EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT PLANS ARE

01:22 - 16.665 SET UP AND GIVE ME A SENSE OF

01:22 - 17.565 HOW THEY ARE.

01:22 - 19.000 HE CAME BACK IN MID-AFTERNOON

01:22 - 20.402 AND WAS ASHEN FACED.

01:22 - 22.237 I SAID WHAT'S THE MATTER, BOB?

01:22 - 23.805 HE SAID ITALKED TO THE PEOPLE IN

01:22 - 25.340 DAUPHIN COUNTY AND THEY HAVE A

01:22 - 26.708 VERY GOOD PLAN SET UP SO IF THEY

01:22 - 30.211 HAVE TO EVACUATE, THEY WILL MOVE

01:22 - 33.014 PEOPLE VIA AUTOMOBILE, ACROSS

01:22 - 36.985 THE HARVEY TAYLOR BRIDGE IN A

01:22 - 37.786 WESTERLY DIRECTION.

01:22 - 39.487 HE SAID I TALKED TO THE PEOPLE

01:22 - 41.089 IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY.

01:22 - 42.924 THEY HAVE A VERY GOOD EVACUATION

01:22 - 43.224 PLAN.

01:22 - 45.360 IF THE NEED AROSE, THEY WOULD

01:22 - 48.763 EVACUATE OVER THE HARVEY TAYLOR

01:22 - 50.365 BRIDGE IN AN EASTERLY DIRECTION.

01:22 - 52.000 SO THEORETICALLY THESE TWO LINES

01:22 - 53.401 OF EVACUATION WOULD, OF COURSE

01:22 - 54.169 IT NEVER HAPPENED.

01:22 - 55.503 IT COULDN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY.

01:22 - 57.906 WHEN WE QUICKLY RECTIFIED THE

01:22 - 59.174 SITUATION, BUT JUST BROUGHT HOME

01:22 - 01.843 THE NEED TO HARMONIZE THE PLANS,

01:23 - 03.311 PARTICULARLY AT THE LOCAL LEVEL,

01:23 - 04.846 AS TO HOW YOU'RE GOING TO HANDLE

01:23 - 06.247 THESE KINDS OF THINGS.

01:23 - 07.649 >> DO YOU EVER COME CLOSE TO

01:23 - 08.984 ORDERING AN EVACUATION?

01:23 - 11.086 >> NO.

01:23 - 14.122 WE HAD A PHONY EVACUATION

01:23 - 16.558 RECOMMENDATION ON FRIDAY MORNING

01:23 - 21.162 THE 2 -- THE 30th OF MARCH,

01:23 - 21.463 YEAH.

01:23 - 23.064 WHAT HAPPENED WAS A DEPARTMENT

01:23 - 26.835 OF ENERGY HELICOPTER WAS TAKING

01:23 - 28.603 READINGS AROUND THE PLANT.

01:23 - 31.506 AND THEY TOOK A READING RIGHT

01:23 - 33.842 OVER THE STACK OF THE THREE-MILE

01:23 - 34.476 ISLAND PLANT.

01:23 - 35.844 AT THE VERY MOMENT THEY HAD MADE

01:23 - 39.347 AN UNAUTHORIZED RELEASE OF

01:23 - 39.714 MATERIAL.

01:23 - 42.550 AND IT PICKED UP VERY HIGH

01:23 - 42.951 READINGS.

01:23 - 45.553 AND THAT WAS TRANSMITTED TO THE

01:23 - 47.922 NRC, NUCLEAR REGULATORY

01:23 - 52.594 COMMISSION ATBETHESDA AS A

01:23 - 53.762 READING TAKEN OFF SITE.

01:23 - 55.363 IF IT WAS A READING TAKEN OFF

01:23 - 57.432 SITE IT WOULD BE AN IMMEDIATE

01:23 - 00.435 EVACUATION WOULD BE IN ORDER.

01:24 - 02.837 THEY MISREAD THIS.

01:24 - 06.074 THEY CALLED HARRISBURG.

01:24 - 07.809 THE LOCAL EMERGENCY

01:24 - 10.078 MANAGEMENT -- EVERYBODY WAS PUT

01:24 - 11.046 ON ALERT.

01:24 - 12.347 AND THEY CALLED THE RADIO

01:24 - 13.548 STATION AND SAID THE GOVERNOR IS

01:24 - 15.717 GOING TO ORDER AN EVACUATION.

01:24 - 17.318 PEOPLE WERE PILING THINGS INTO

01:24 - 17.619 CARS.

01:24 - 19.988 THIS WAS A PRETTY DESPERATE

01:24 - 20.288 TIME.

01:24 - 21.356 I HAD HEARD NOTHING OF THIS.

01:24 - 22.891 FINALLY WHEN I DID, I SAID WHO

01:24 - 24.059 MADE THIS RECOMMENDATION.

01:24 - 25.560 AND THEY TOLD ME DOC COLLINS.

01:24 - 28.930 I SAID, WELL, WHO IS DOC

01:24 - 29.297 COLLINS.

01:24 - 30.799 LET'S FIND OUT WHAT WE'RE DEAL

01:24 - 31.199 WITH.

01:24 - 33.435 BY THE TIME WE GOT BACK TO THEM,

01:24 - 34.803 THEY HAD REALIZED THEIR MISTAKE

01:24 - 39.541 AND REVOKED THIS ORDER.

01:24 - 41.042 WHAT WE ENDED UP DOING WAS

01:24 - 46.548 ISSUING A VERY LIMITED ORDER.

01:24 - 47.715 PREGNANT WOMEN AND CHILDREN

01:24 - 51.553 UNDER THE AGE OF WHO WERE

01:24 - 54.489 PARTICULARLY SUSCEPTIBLE TO

01:24 - 54.856 RADIATION.

01:24 - 56.057 BUT IT SHOWS YOU WHAT

01:24 - 57.158 MISINFORMATION CAN DO WHEN IT

01:24 - 59.494 AQUIRES A LIFE OF ITS OWN AND

01:24 - 00.829 WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES WOULD HAVE

01:25 - 02.263 BEEN IF WE HAD NOT QUESTIONED

01:25 - 03.765 THE AUTHORITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL

01:25 - 04.966 WHO MADE THIS RECOMMENDATION.

01:25 - 06.634 THAT WAS ONLY ONE OF A NUMBER OF

01:25 - 10.605 THINGS THAT HAPPENED DURING THE

01:25 - 11.940 THREE MILE ISLAND ACCIDENT THAT

01:25 - 16.411 BROUGHT US PRETTY CLOSE TO THE

01:25 - 16.811 EDGE.